Rapture timing

Straightshot

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"The SOULS of the martyrs that John saw under the altar of God in Heaven are the EARLY Christiansmartyrs"

These under the alter are the spirits of the tribulation martyrs who will become believers during the period

All of the believing spirits of the human dead in Christ and those living just before the tribulation begins upon the earth will have already been made immortal before .... here is the overwhelming evidence [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13;6; 17:4; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those already on thrones]]

I no you do not want to believe this truth R, but you should for you own good .... do not second guess the Lord's promise into refutation
 
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Riberra

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riberra said:
The SOULS of the martyrs that John saw under the altar of God in Heaven are the EARLY Christians martyrs
These under the alter are the spirits of the tribulation martyrs who will become believers during the period
Those who will be beheaded during the 42 months reign of the Beast are seen standing on the sea of glass not under the altar.
Revelation 15:2-3 ....Revelation 20:4-6 talk about their rewards // I saw the SOULS of them which were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads// they will be made immortal and they shall be priests of God and of Christ,and will reign with Jesus during the millennium Revelation 20:5-6

Revelation 15
1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

All of the believing spirits of the human dead in Christ and those living just before the tribulation begins upon the earth will have already been made immortal before .... here is the overwhelming evidence [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13;6; 17:4; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 [those already on thrones]]
The Bible does not say that the Believers will be resurrected and made immortal before the Tribulation....read again and pay attention.

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

*4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

*5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 
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Job8

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None of these OT prophecies talk about a removal of the believers out of the Earth to Heaven before the Tribulation.
And there is an excellent reason for that. The Church was a Mystery to all the OT prophets, and even to the apostles until it was revealed to Paul. Peter had a very difficult time believing that salvation was also for the Gentiles, and he had to be persuaded supernaturally (Acts 10). Just before the ascension of Christ, the apostles wanted to know simply about the restoration of Israel (Acts 1:6,7).
 
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Psalm3704 said in post 594:

Nothing can harm these servants, because God’s protection is upon them (they are sealed).

Amen.

And note that while at the future point in time of Revelation 7:2-4, only the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:1,4) will be sealed for physical protection, all obedient people in the church will still be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). Also, before Revelation 7:2-4 happens, the 144,000, along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's 1st stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). It is near the end of this 1st stage that the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

After this 2nd stage, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while 2 other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14-16); and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials (Revelation 16) will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage. Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They are those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.

Psalm3704 said in post 594:

Do not hold to any prophetic pattern that goes against Christ's given pattern. The very first words out of Christ's mouth when He sat down to tell His disciples these things was this warning: "Take heed that no man deceive you." (Matthew 24:4).

Amen.

And that is why in Matthew 24:24 the original Greek doesn't say "if it were possible", in the sense of it not being possible. Instead, it simply says "if possible", meaning that false Christs and false prophets will in our future perform great miracles by the power of Satan (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), as part of Satan's intention to deceive as many of the elect as possible. The Bible nowhere says that it is impossible for any elect person to be deceived. Instead, (as you pointed out) Jesus had started out in Matthew 24 by specifically warning the elect to "Take heed that no man deceive you" (Matthew 24:4), meaning that it is possible for the elect to be deceived, if they don't take heed to Jesus' warning regarding great-miracle-working false Christs and false prophets, who will appear in our future (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20).

The elect can also be deceived in other ways, whether before their salvation (Titus 3:3, Romans 7:11) or after their salvation (1 John 3:7; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Corinthians 15:33, Galatians 6:7, Ephesians 5:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:3). Paul warns the elect: "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1). The time will come when some "shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:4). For it is possible for a saved person to commit apostasy, to the ultimate loss of his salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

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The fact that a saved person can be deceived into committing apostasy doesn't mean that Satan is stronger than God, or that God would for no reason abandon a saved person, but means that the principle of the "deceivableness of unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:10, Proverbs 17:4a) applies even to a saved person.

That is, one way that a saved person could be deceived into committing apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, saved people can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and they instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

So saved people need to be living righteously now, they need to be obedient now if they want to spiritually endure to the end during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:13). For only obedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the rock, as it were, so that they will endure the coming storm (Matthew 7:24-25). Disobedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the sand, so that they will fall away during the storm (Matthew 7:26-27). They will become part of the falling away, the apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), the departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), which will occur during the future tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Isaiah 8:21-22), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

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But what about those believers who, even though they may be obedient in their actions now, are holding so strongly mentally to the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture idea or to the mistaken mid-tribulation rapture idea that they could be unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation in its entirety?

The main reason that the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

On the other hand, pre-tribulation rapturism, as well as preterism (whether full or partial), and historicism (in its various modern forms), and symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of pre-tribulation rapturism, preterism, historicism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation. Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Psalm3704 said in post 594:

It’s God’s character to DELIVER His own (righteous ones) from His judgments. Enoch, Noah, Lot, and Rahab are a few.

Regarding Enoch, note that he wasn't translated into the 3rd heaven so that he wouldn't have to go through the Flood (along with righteous Noah and his family in the ark: 2 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 3:20). For Enoch (Noah's great grandfather) was translated 669 years before the Flood. The way that we can know this is first by knowing when Noah's flood happened:

Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built:

Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18). And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work farther back: If Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC. And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10, Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, which was 669 years before the Flood. Adding these 669 years to Enoch's age of 365, we find that Enoch was 1,034 years old at the time of the Flood. This means that had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the Flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and he died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27), the same year as the Flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the Flood.

Methuselah could have died of old age right before the Flood started. God could have waited to bring the Flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried. Lamech (Noah's father) had already died some 5 years before the Flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, 5 years before the Flood.

Psalm3704 said in post 594:

The tribulation BEGINS with the SIGNING OF A COVENANT with ISRAEL--which STARTS the 7 years of tribulation. That act REVEALS the antichrist.

Actually, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (i.e. without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at the 2nd coming, the Antichrist will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).

Psalm3704 said in post 594:

The tribulation BEGINS with the SIGNING OF A COVENANT with ISRAEL--which STARTS the 7 years of tribulation.

Actually, the Antichrist may not appear on the world stage until after the horrible, future, tribulation-starting war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 has resulted in the total defeat and occupation of Israel, and Egypt, and the death of 1/4 of the world. It could be this war which will help open the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace and antitypically fulfill the "vile" person of Daniel 11:21-45.

One way this war could happen is the U.S. could undertake a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army, initially to bring about the total defeat of the Islamic State militant group (also known as ISIS, or ISIL, or Daesh) in Iraq, and eventually so that the Iraqi Army can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (i.e. that which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein), to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly.

And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein's rule), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For they could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to defeat Islamic State, and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform. For they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

Indeed, the current military brains of the Islamic State are former Iraqi Baathist generals who can't stand that the Iraqi government has come completely under the thumb of Iran. They see (Sunni Arab) Islamic State as the only current viable bulwark against the Iranians and the Shiite Arabs taking control of all of Iraq and Syria. These generals could "defect" from serving Islamic State to serving a non-sectarian Iraqi Army drawn mainly (not exclusively) from Sunni Arab and Kurdish militias in western and northern Iraq, which with secret Western assistance could completely overthrow the current Iraqi government in Baghdad, which is very weak and corrupt.

Once the Iraqi Baathists take back control of the Iraqi government and military, they could completely defeat ISIS and all Iranian-supported Shiite militias in Iraq. Then, in order to help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of a subsequent, all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, "false flag" operations could be managed by the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false "Messiah": cf. Matthew 24:24) could completely destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, in order to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a 51st state of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The first thing that the Antichrist could do once he is given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist federation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated and occupied Israel), is to perform a small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22).

These ultra-Orthodox Jews could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it is not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm (such as by incapacitating its Jewish defenders with huge clouds of tear gas while tens of thousands of Arab soldiers wearing gas masks take control of the city by climbing over its walls on thousands of tall ladders).

But then, instead of imprisoning or executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23), permitting them to keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City of Jerusalem, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It's all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well-equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat and occupy Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses across the Arab world as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were free and far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings and sheikhs of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "Hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat and occupation of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a United Arab States, or Arab Union, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of "World peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich Arab Union join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist will break it, attack the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 literal days (Revelation 12:6).

The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). The 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus returns, he will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9), and he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

Psalm3704 said in post 594:

While the tribulation occurs on earth, the antichrist will overcome (and PREVAIL AGAINST) the tribulation saints. Revelation 13:7.

Revelation 13:7-10 shows that the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), will be allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Biblical Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). There are no Biblical Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6,14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
 
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Psalm3704

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Now,back to serious matter:
I am very consitent with the Scriptures and i have received a like for my post .
I have the impression that you have no soul at all....that may explain many things...like not knowing why the soul makes a human --- different that a monkey who have no soul.

Are you trying to tell me you "seriously" think some people do not have a soul?

I am very consitent with the Scriptures and i have received a like for my post .

Yeah well don't pat yourself on the back so much as people don't always get a like for posting something biblical and intelligent. Sometimes people will get a like simply because they're gullibly being played like a pawn by others who wants you to do the duty work for them. You just haven't figured out where you stand on the chessboard.

As i have said English is not my native language.

That doesn't prove you never posted a link from the internet onto this forum before. All you're tells us is your grammar and ability to comprehend anything in English is inferior compared to everyone else on CF.

Have you ever read 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988 ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_C._Whisenant

Riberra, back to the question. Can you provide a link to a website revealing 250 REASONS FOR THE POST-TRIB RAPTURE?












.
 
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Riberra

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Riberra, back to the question. Can you provide a link to a website revealing 250 REASONS FOR THE POST-TRIB RAPTURE?
Can you find only one verse among those 250 REASONS FOR THE Pre-trib rapture saying that the believers will be taken out of the Earth to Heaven before the tribulation ?The Bible wrote that we will be taken to meet Jesus in the air unto His coming .....there is no mention of a trip to Heaven.
 
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Riberra

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And there is an excellent reason for that. The Church was a Mystery to all the OT prophets, and even to the apostles until it was revealed to Paul. Peter had a very difficult time believing that salvation was also for the Gentiles, and he had to be persuaded supernaturally (Acts 10). Just before the ascension of Christ, the apostles wanted to know simply about the restoration of Israel (Acts 1:6,7).
If the OT does not support the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine--
Then your support to the statement that Psalm3704 have copied from a website is somehow void of any sense.
Psalm3704 "wrote":

"ONLY the Pre-Trib Rapture view allows for a TRULY LITERAL INTERPRETATION of the Old and New Testament passages regarding the tribulation."
Job8 said:
Amen. The problem is that many simply do not bother to study the OT prophecies in detail and see how they will be fulfilled. And even when they are shown, they will not believe.
 
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Straightshot

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Riberra already knows that a number of related verses have been posted on this thread guaranteeing the Lord's promise to call His true ecclesia just before the His coming judgment .... not only that, but Revelation's unfolding views of those who are dwelling in heaven during the tribulation

For some reason Riberra denies and does not want to participate .... who knows?

.... but this pre-tribulation action of the Lord is going to happen

If Riberra is alive at the time he will enter the tribulation as he thinks .... so no need to argue with him
 
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Riberra

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Riberra already knows that a number of related verses have been posted on this thread guaranteeing the Lord's promise to call His true ecclesia just before the His coming judgment .... not only that, but Revelation's unfolding views of those who are dwelling in heaven during the tribulation

You mean a verse like Revelation 3:10 which was addressed to the Church of Philadelphia who existed nearly 2,000 years ago is supposed to be interpreted as being a promise of being taken out of the Earth to Heaven before the Tribulation ?...
 
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Job8

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If the OT does not support the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine--
Actually, the OT supports it indirectly. If Christ is to come WITH His saints, then He must logically come first FOR His saints.

...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech 14:5).
 
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Straightshot

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You mean a verse like Revelation 3:10 which was addressed to the Church of Philadelphia who existed nearly 2,000 years ago is supposed to be interpreted as being a promise of being taken out of the Earth to Heaven before the Tribulation ?

Absolutely

The letters to the assemblies in Asia Minor as exemplifications of the same positives and negatives from the Lord's view for the entire "church" to this very day
 
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keras

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"Actually, the OT supports it indirectly. If Christ is to come WITH His saints, then He must logically come first FOR His saints.

...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech 14:5)"
Zechariah 14:5b...Then the Lord will appear attended by all His holy ones. REBible.
Revelation 19:14...the armies of heaven accompanied Him......
Jude 1:14b.....I saw the Lord come with His myriads of angels.....
Matthew 24:30-31.....all the world will see the Son of Man coming in glory.....He will send out His angels [They come with Him, obviously] to gather His chosen.....[who are scattered around the earth, obviously]
Quite plain from all those scriptures that Jesus does not bring the 'Church' with Him at His Return.
Far from being 'logical', your false theory of the 'Church' being in heaven for the GT, is refuted.
All you're tells us is your grammar and ability to comprehend anything in English is inferior compared to everyone else on CF.
This makes my day! What a joke.
Riberra - never be embarrassed by any mistakes in your grammar, you do very well.
 
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Riberra

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Actually, the OT supports it indirectly. If Christ is to come WITH His saints, then He must logically come first FOR His saints.

...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech 14:5).
Zecharia is a Saint as well as all the Prophets and Patriarchs of the OT like Abraham,Moses ,Ect..They were aware that their spirit/soul return to God when they die...-something that the believers of today seem to not be aware-
and that it is the spirit of the Saints that the Lord will bring with Him for the resurrection of the Saints at His Coming .Note that i am not saying that only the OT Saints will be resurrected.What you call the rapture is the resurrection of the SAINTS unto the Coming of the Lord.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
 
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Riberra

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Are you trying to tell me you "seriously" think some people do not have a soul?
I was referring to trolls...do you consider yourself to be a troll ?
That doesn't prove you never posted a link from the internet onto this forum before.
Contary to you ,i have the honesty to always provide the link to the source from where i quoted the text and i never use a text taken on a web site as if i have written it... If you see what i mean. --- plagia is very dishonest, vilian mister plagia ... Tst-Tst-Tst

Riberra said:
]
As i have said English is not my native language...
All you're tells us is your grammar and ability to comprehend anything in English is inferior compared to everyone else on CF.
Based on your total inability to interpret Scriptures properly from a Bible written in your native language .It is about time for you to return to school because :(1)- you have a serious comprehension problem or (2)- you are totally blind to the Word of God .I can safely say that in your case (1)and (2) apply.
 
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keras

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Far from being 'logical', your false theory of the 'Church' being in heaven for the GT, is refuted
How, when?
I just proved the living people of God, His 'saints' if you like, do not Return with Jesus. They are therefore, not in heaven.
You need to read the Lord's book of Revelation on the matter .... calling this a false theory is not a good idea for you to engage
The pre-trib rapture is a Satanic deception, Jesus Himself refutes any idea of living people going to live in heaven. John 3:13
I know what God actually does have planned for His people. Read the 'Do the Lord's people go to live in the holy Land' thread for the truth of our destiny.
It is not my theory .... it is His truth written in stone
SS, you know by now that there is no scripture stating God intends for humans to live in heaven. We do know the souls of the martyr's are kept under the Altar in heaven, Jesus will bring them to earth and give them new bodies at His Return.
I realize that for you to change from a pre-trib stance would be very difficult, you would likely be ostracized by family and friends. But what is better; keep your cozy relationships and be shocked and terrified when the SHTF, or know the truth and be mentally and physically prepared, then to call out to the Lord for His protection. Acts 2:21

Just to clarify for Riberra: in #617 scoll means school.
 
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Actually, the OT supports it indirectly. If Christ is to come WITH His saints, then He must logically come first FOR His saints.

...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech 14:5).

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 shows a distinction between the dead and living saints.
 
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