Why are so many protestants anti-Catholic and/or anti-Orthodox

yeshuaslavejeff

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I think you've misunderstood me. I never said that prayer for discernment should be done outside of a relationship with God. Obviously I know a relationship with God is essential, but the Bible makes it clear that we are still to pray and seek Him.
Good, subject to Jesus, but realize that most (on earth) don't have a relationship with God, so
"Just clarifyin" is probably the best way to express God's purpose here ....
You do realize that many more sinners than you and I read this thread and post in this forum / site ?
Many are told by someone outside of Christ, someone they trust,
just do this list 1) 2) 3) 4) .....
without ever repenting (like for adultery, ongoing/ living in continual adultery or idolatry)
but
they're told over and over and over again not to worry about that as long as they "DO" the list....
so
without repentance they never are forgiven
but
they don't know this because no one tells them this......
just
they are told the opposite - go ahead and live like you are living, and keep that list handy and "DO" the list.... and you're okay(with God)
but
they're never okay with God, and won't be, unless God grants them the grace to seek Him Himself and to truthfully repent
according to God's Own Word (and not man's).
 
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prodromos

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Most people never approach God.
They never seek Him directly like Jesus says to, probably.
A load of rubbish without any evidence to back it up. Not even anecdotal references.
AFTER finding Him, or Him finding us (as He pleases), why bother with other nick-nacks even ?!? - nick-nacks that may usually detract from and may prevent personal union with the Father Yhwh ? (even just from preventing people from seeking Him directly like Jesus says ?)
I have explained that it is because of love between ALL members of Christ's body. Neither does it detract from God any more than the love I have for each of my children. They each receive ALL of my love, it is not shared between them. I have also noted that God appears to be well pleased by this love we have because he blesses it abundantly through innumerable miracles, although Amariselle seems to want to imply that these miracles are of Satan, though she refuses to state as much directly. She also implies that there has been no discernment exercised with regards to these miracles, whereas Orthodox as a rule treat all miracles with suspicion. The evil one has long been trying to deceive pious Orthodox and collectively we have a great deal of experience in recognising his efforts.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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A load of rubbish without any evidence to back it up. Not even anecdotal references.
So, you never read Revelation ?
Or Romans ?
Or Jesus' warnings about judging ?
Romans 2:5 - Bible Gateway
But you are stubborn and refuse to turn to God. ... But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself.
biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans 2:5
Revelation 16:9 - Bible Gateway
They refused to repent, refused to honor God. MEV. Men were scorched with great heat, ... But they refused to turn away from their sins. They did not give glory to ...
 
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prodromos

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So, you never read Revelation ?
Or Romans ?
Or Jesus' warnings about judging ?
Romans 2:5 - Bible Gateway
But you are stubborn and refuse to turn to God. ... But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself.
biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans 2:5
Revelation 16:9 - Bible Gateway
They refused to repent, refused to honor God. MEV. Men were scorched with great heat, ... But they refused to turn away from their sins. They did not give glory to ...
If there was an "ignore with extreme prejudice" option on this forum, you would be a prime candidate :)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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If there was an "ignore with extreme prejudice" option on this forum, you would be a prime candidate :)
GOOD !
The world persecutes and humiliates and censures and arrests those of us in Christ Jesus -
IF ONLY they would ignore us , even for a time ! OH WHAT A RELIEF THAT IS/ WOULD BE !
 
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OrthodoxForever

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I do wonder why church tradition is put above the Bible in the Catholic Church, and why many Protestants are accused of "Sola Scriptura" like that's a terrible thing.
Sola Scriptura (only the scripture) completely ignores the issue that the early church did not have a set canon of scripture, not until some three hundred years later after the Romans stopped persecuting us and the church leaders of the day were able to meet safely and work this stuff out.

2 Here are a couple of things about tradition that I am almost positive is common to both Catholicism and Orthodoxy that you need to understand.

1 A. There are 2 kinds of tradition. Tradition, Holy Tradition is doctrinal, it is canon law, it matters, it has the potential (though doesn't always or for everyone) make a kingdom difference. A good example of this would be the fasts which are meant to teach self-discipline and compassion for those less materially fortunate than yourself.

and 1 B tradition *note the lower case "t"* the little, cultural things that we do that have little if any importance faith-wise

2. The scripture in and of itself is considered Holy Tradition, it would also include the 7 ecumenical councils and the writings of the early church fathers which help us maintain the correct understanding of scripture.

traditions of category B aren't even in the same ballpark in terms of importance and Traditions of category A work in concert with scripture, never trumping it.

Side note, as of the 1,500s of so, protestants, don't even use the complete canon of scripture. From what I've been able to gather from talking to people and listening to arguments on the topic the reason for this seems to be that certain doctrines of that are still present in both the other main branches of Christianity find their biblical backing in the books and parts that were cut out, doctrines that reformers apparently so hated that they tried to pretend (and apparently convinced many) that these things weren't scriptural when in fact they are if we were, in fact, all using the entirety of the canon.

The fact is that the early church gave us the bible, not the other way around. Inspired men led by the holy spirit wrote these things down, and another group of inspired men sorted through what was truth and what was falsehood and compiled those texts which were authentic.

The missing books are what first got me thinking, so I heeded the words of St. James "If any of you lack wisdom let them ask of God who gives to all men liberally." The answer was to re-read the scriptures using the full canon, which I did and then I prayed for discernment again, and my answer, this time, was that this, the entirety of the original canon was the Word of God and that I belonged in a church that acknowledged that.
 
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shioks

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I'm not sure if it is only Protestants not using the full canon scriptures. My understand is that Protestants are not the only one that don't use "full canon scriptures".

The Hebrew Scriptures, called the Tanakh, consist of the following books. All Christian Bibles contain these books in what are called the Old Testament.

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 Samuel
2 Samuel
1 Kings
2 Kings
1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles
Ezra
Nehemiah
Esther
Job
Psalms
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Solomon
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

The Christian portion of the Bible, the New Testament, contains the following books:

Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
Hebrews
James
1 Peter
2 Peter
1 John
2 John
3 John
Jude
Revelation

Roman Catholic Bibles contain the Jewish scriptures listed above and the books of the New Testament. In addition, they contain these books in the Old Testament:

Tobit
Judith
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
Wisdom of Solomon
Sirach
Baruch

Bibles used by Orthodox churches contain the Jewish scriptures listed above and the books of the New Testament. In addition, they contain these books in the Old Testament:

1 Ezra
Tobit
Judith
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
3 Maccabees
Wisdom of Solomon
Wisdom of Sirach
Baruch
Epistle of Jeremiah

Bibles used by churches in Ethiopia contain the Jewish scriptures listed above and the books of the New Testament. In addition, they contain these books found in no other Christian Bibles:

Jubilees
Enoch
1 Esdras
4 Baruch
The Book of Josephas the Son of Bengorion
Sirate Tsion (the book of order)
Tizaz (the book of Herald)
Gitsew
Abtilis
The 1 Book of Dominos
The 2 Book of Dominos
Book of Clement
Didascalia

Protestant Bibles contain the Jewish scriptures listed above and the books of the New Testament. Some, but not all, Protestant Bibles may have a third category of books, called “Apocrypha.” These include:

1 Esdras
2 Esdras
Tobit
Judith
The Rest of the Chapters of the Book of Esther
The Wisdom of Solomon
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch
A Letter of Jeremiah
The Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three
Daniel and Susanna
Daniel, Bel, and the Snake
The Prayer of Manasseh
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

Mormon scriptures include the same books as the Protestant Bible (but without the Apocrypha). In addition the Book of Mormon is considered scripture. It contains the following books:

1 Nephi
2 Nephi
Jacob
Enos
Jarom
Omni
Words of Mormon
Mosiah
Alma
Helaman
3 Nephi
4 Nephi
Mormon
Ether
Moroni
 
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Goatee

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I do wonder why church tradition is put above the Bible in the Catholic Church, and why many Protestants are accused of "Sola Scriptura", like that's a terrible thing.

That shows how much you 'DON'T' know about the CC! 1,000s of protestant denominations with many many different interpretation on scripture all led from Sola Scripture gone wrong!

Which of the 1,000s of interpretations do you go with? So many to choose from when looking at the 1,000s of protestant Sola Sriptura experts!
 
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Rick Otto

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That shows how much you 'DON'T' know about the CC! 1,000s of protestant denominations with many many different interpretation on scripture all led from Sola Scripture gone wrong!

Which of the 1,000s of interpretations do you go with? So many to choose from when looking at the 1,000s of protestant Sola Sriptura experts!
It's like trying to choose between the one true churches - Orthodox or Catholic, their existence denies their name.
 
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amariselle

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That shows how much you 'DON'T' know about the CC! 1,000s of protestant denominations with many many different interpretation on scripture all led from Sola Scripture gone wrong!

Which of the 1,000s of interpretations do you go with? So many to choose from when looking at the 1,000s of protestant Sola Sriptura experts!

I don't turn to another person to tell me what the Bible says. I can read it for myself. And the most important things in Scripture need no interpretation. (That Jesus is our Saviour, promised since the fall of man)

You make it more confusing than it has to be.
 
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OrthodoxForever

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I don't turn to another person to tell me what the Bible says. I can read it for myself. And the most important things in Scripture need no interpretation. (That Jesus is our Saviour, promised since the fall of man)

You make it more confusing than it has to be.
We do? Sola Scriptura produces everything from really loving people, to the Westboro baptists, each convinced that theirs is the correct interpretation and neither having any more or less reason than the other to base that on.
 
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amariselle

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We do? Sola Scriptura produces everything from really loving people, to the Westboro baptists, each convinced that theirs is the correct interpretation and neither having any more or less reason than the other to base that on.

Do you not think there are and have been similar problems within the Catholic Church?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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One thing Westboro ain't is lukewarm ..
Strange , yes, - they may be wrong about some things, maybe many things,
but
I've never seen them accused of practicing or teaching idolatry
or
practicing re-crucifying Jesus every day.
 
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All4Christ

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Do you not think there are and have been similar problems within the Catholic Church?
Hi Ameriselle - I'm guessing it would be more relevant to ask OrthodoxForever if she thinks the same thing has happened in the Orthodox Church.

My personal thought on the subject: No, the same problems don't happen in the Orthodox Church - or at least not nearly to the same level. We have our own issues, certainly, but there aren't the same level of differences within the Orthodox Church as there are between multiple sola scriptura Protestant churches.

I'm not posting this with an antagonistic intent - but from my perspective (and I'm guessing from OrthodoxForever's perspective), it is just reality. Orthodox Christians have one set of beliefs. Some beliefs are allowed to be more personal opinion, but overall, we interpret scripture as a community, and we are guided by the Church and the Orthodox Christians before us, through the Holy Spirit. We especially are guided by the early church (again, through the Holy Spirit guiding them).

There have been small splits over the years - a few sects here or there that leave the communion of the Orthodox Church, but much less than the sola scriptura churches.

Blessings to you.
 
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amariselle

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Hi Ameriselle - I'm guessing it would be more relevant to ask OrthodoxForever if she thinks the same thing has happened in the Orthodox Church.

My personal thought on the subject: No, the same problems don't happen in the Orthodox Church - or at least not nearly to the same level. We have our own issues, certainly, but there aren't the same level of differences within the Orthodox Church as there are between multiple sola scriptura Protestant churches.

I'm not posting this with an antagonistic intent - but from my perspective (and I'm guessing from OrthodoxForever's perspective), it is just reality. Orthodox Christians have one set of beliefs. Some beliefs are allowed to be more personal opinion, but overall, we interpret scripture as a community, and we are guided by the Church and the Orthodox Christians before us, through the Holy Spirit. We especially are guided by the early church (again, through the Holy Spirit guiding them).

There have been small splits over the years - a few sects here or there that leave the communion of the Orthodox Church, but much less than the sola scriptura churches.

Blessings to you.

Thanks for you reply All4Christ. :)

Blessings to you as well.
 
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Albion

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We do? Sola Scriptura produces everything from really loving people, to the Westboro baptists, each convinced that theirs is the correct interpretation and neither having any more or less reason than the other to base that on.

So what? Seriously.

The truth is the truth; there's no guarantee that every last person coming in touch with it is going to get it right.

And although your comment here is often made against Christians who believe in the sufficiency of Scripture, it applies just as well to those who don't. If we're honest about this, there are ongoing disagreements among Catholics, both Papal And Eastern, as to the meaning of various of the decisions made by the supposedly infallible Ecumenical Councils, Papal Decrees, what counts as real Tradition and what doesn't.

That is why no two of the Catholic/Orthodox churches that reject Sola Scriptura are in agreement with each other--even though they have turned to sources of authority other than the Word of God. And yet they tell us Scripture can't be trusted because there is often disagreement among those who take it for their ultimate doctrinal guide.
 
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Goatee

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I don't turn to another person to tell me what the Bible says. I can read it for myself. And the most important things in Scripture need no interpretation. (That Jesus is our Saviour, promised since the fall of man)

You make it more confusing than it has to be.

Its when you go alone and start interpreting things to suit your own ideas / beliefs thats when things can go pear shaped!

I think that Satan love these people who 'go it alone' as he can then manipulate them and mold them!
 
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Goatee

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Do you not think there are and have been similar problems within the Catholic Church?

No, as 'Holy Tradition / Holy Spirit' has seen to it that the core beliefs of the CC have never changed!
 
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