What about the rest of us?

toLiJC

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Incoherent and demonstably wrong.

:wave:

you are wrong if you still think there had been nothing for all that time's infinity, since before God created the world 5-6 millennia ago - there was a beginning just 5-6 millennia ago after all (Genesis 1:1), and it is too short time for such a presumption (as yours) to be true, especially when there is talk of "eternity of eternities/ever and ever" in the Bible - to put it another way, God created the world 5-6 millennia ago, but what was before these 5-6 millennia?!

Blessings
 
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toLiJC

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I would say that it is completely impossible to interpret any particular Biblical verse by relating it to, and putting it into, the context of every other verse. That you claim to so puts me very much on guard against your entire attempts at exposition. Possibly there will be an appeal made to the "spiritual eye" given to the "true" believer, yet such is nothing more than circular reasoning ( without mention of others who make claims as you do yet who interpret things differently )

Sorry, Merton is stating quite clearly, without incoherence, that grace/mercy trumps all our schemes, schemes that in effect would replace mercy with any particular formula drawn from wherever.

I'm sorry that you prefer to remain a "magician".

magician is a man that speculates on the obvious truth of God in order to be free to do (spiritual) unrighteousness as much as and however he likes/wants, and here is how you also speculate using words such as "incoherence" without specifying what you actually mean, claiming God is love/mercy without there being any explainable reason, as if you would benefit from what was not beneficial to you and you would waste your time and effort in vain - there must also be some reasonable explanation (for why God is love) apart from the heartfelt display of love

Blessings
 
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Fizzywig

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you are wrong if you still think there had been nothing for all that time's infinity, since before God created the world 5-6 millennia ago - there was a beginning just 5-6 millennia ago after all (Genesis 1:1), and it is too short time for such a presumption (as yours) to be true, especially when there is talk of "eternity of eternities/ever and ever" in the Bible - to put it another way, God created the world 5-6 millennia ago, but what was before these 5-6 millennia?!

Blessings

Sorry. Where have I claimed that there was "nothing" before the "creation"? I claimed that eternity was timelessness (which embraces what we experience as time; it is neither "before" nor "after")

If you actually believe that our earth was created just a few thousand years ago I would suggest you are wrong.

Yet the main point remains...........................mercy trumps the formulas of the religious magicians.

Thank you
 
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Fizzywig

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magician is a man that speculates on the obvious truth of God in order to be free to do (spiritual) unrighteousness as much as and however he likes/wants, and here is how you also speculate using words such as "incoherence" without specifying what you actually mean, claiming God is love/mercy without there being any explainable reason, as if you would benefit from what was not beneficial to you and you would waste your time and effort in vain - there must also be some reasonable explanation (for why God is love) apart from the heartfelt display of love

Blessings

Sorry, my use of the word was in a sense a private joke. Forget it.

In context, the word "magician" is used by Merton of one who would seek to limit the Mercy of God to their very own interpretations of books or indeed anything else, formula's or whatever.

The whole point is that there is no "reason" for mercy!! Good grief! Such is Grace!

"Love has no why" (Meister Eckhart, Christian mystic)
 
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toLiJC

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Sorry. Where have I claimed that there was "nothing" before the "creation"? I claimed that eternity was timelessness (which embraces what we experience as time; it is neither "before" nor "after")

If you actually believe that our earth was created just a few thousand years ago I would suggest you are wrong.

Yet the main point remains...........................mercy trumps the formulas of the religious magicians.

Thank you

you again speculate, where in the Bible can/do you read that God created the world more than 5-6 millennia ago?!, and even if the biblical "earth" was created not 5-6 millennia but trillions of years ago, the question of what was before the creation still remains relevant/topical

Blessings
 
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toLiJC

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Sorry, my use of the word was in a sense a private joke. Forget it.

In context, the word "magician" is used by Merton of one who would seek to limit the Mercy of God to their very own interpretations of books or indeed anything else, formula's or whatever.

The whole point is that there is no "reason" for mercy!! Good grief! Such is Grace!

"Love has no why" (Meister Eckhart, Christian mystic)

there is a whole scripture consisting of thousands of pages, and you continue to claim there is no logical explanation of why God is love?!?!

Blessings
 
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Fizzywig

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you again speculate, where in the Bible can/do you read that God created the world more than 5-6 millennia ago?!, and even if the biblical "earth" was created not 5-6 millennia but trillions of years ago, the question of what was before the creation still remains relevant/topical

Blessings

It is not "speculation" concerning the age of the earth..........without seeking to be cruel or unkind, it is education.

I have already answered the question you pose. Many minds far finer than mine have sought to explain "time", but I have given my own answer........eternity is "timelessness", that which embraces time as we experience it. The question of what came before or after is thus meaningless.
 
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Fizzywig

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there is a whole scripture consisting of thousands of pages, and you continue to claim there is no logical explanation of why God is love?!?!

Blessings

Well, as that scripture itself says....." they search the scriptures daily for in them they THINK they have life ".

Love is not "logical"

And you are claiming I do not understand Merton's words! Did you even read them?
 
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toLiJC

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It is not "speculation" concerning the age of the earth..........without seeking to be cruel or unkind, it is education.

I have already answered the question you pose. Many minds far finer than mine have sought to explain "time", but I have given my own answer........eternity is "timelessness", that which embraces time as we experience it. The question of what came before or after is thus meaningless.

and what is the age of the earth?!, it is written in the beginning of this eternity God made all the universal creation in six days(144 hours), and then the first humans sinned and fell from grace, and thus "sin" and "death" began to reign in the world, adam was 130 years old when he begat his son seth, and then seth was 105 years old when he begat his son enos, and then enos was 90 years old when he begat his son cainan, and so there were 75 generations from adam to Jesus as it is written in Luke 3:23-38, which makes no more than 5-6 millennia since the beginning of this eternity, so the earth is no more than 5-6 millennia old, and the fact that some scientists found and claim(ed) the world is millions/billions of years old doesn't mean that it is really so, because there have been many angels of satan, even an entire kingdom of satan, that could perform/show many signs and wonders including materializations such as: aging of matter, materializations of fossils and remains of prehistoric manlike beings/anthropoids, animals and plants, materialization of prehistoric earth layers in the ground, etc.

Matthew 24:23-25 "if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before."

you speak of "eternity" as if you are blind or have no brain to reason, how is it possible that the time's infinity began or God started to exist just about 5-6 millennia ago without there having been anything before that?!, you just ignore many important things/facts/circumstances

Blessings
 
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toLiJC

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Well, as that scripture itself says....." they search the scriptures daily for in them they THINK they have life ".

Love is not "logical"

And you are claiming I do not understand Merton's words! Did you even read them?

i don't read scriptures, considering that i read only all the books of the New Testament twice many years ago, but this doesn't prevent me from knowing/understanding what is written in the Bible and i don't need any human to teach me the truth of God, because the Spirit of the true Lord God gives me what to speak when i speak a God's word

there should be some reasonable explanation, otherwise, if there was no such, many people would quite rightly say "why must we be good to the sinners if they will anyway go to and suffer in hell?!", or "there is no love for the sinners that is right/justified", etc., that is why Solomon said:

Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 "I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past."

Blessings
 
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Fizzywig

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and what is the age of the earth?!, it is written in the beginning of this eternity God made all the universal creation in six days(144 hours), and then the first humans sinned and fell from grace, and thus "sin" and "death" began to reign in the world, adam was 130 years old when he begat his son seth, and then seth was 105 years old when he begat his son enos, and then enos was 90 years old when he begat his son cainan, and so there were 75 generations from adam to Jesus as it is written in Luke 3:23-38, which makes no more than 5-6 millennia since the beginning of this eternity, so the earth is no more than 5-6 millennia old, and the fact that some scientists found and claim(ed) the world is millions/billions of years old doesn't mean that it is really so, because there have been many angels of satan, even an entire kingdom of satan, that could perform/show many signs and wonders including materializations such as: aging of matter, materializations of fossils and remains of prehistoric manlike beings/anthropoids, animals and plants, materialization of prehistoric earth layers in the ground, etc.

Matthew 24:23-25 "if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before."

you speak of "eternity" as if you are blind or have no brain to reason, how is it possible that the time's infinity began or God started to exist just about 5-6 millennia ago without there having been anything before that?!, you just ignore many important things/facts/circumstances

Blessings

Well, poor old fizzy is coming in for it!

No matter. I agree with those who would say that one of the first steps to any sort of knowledge/wisdom, is to know what you do not know. One of the greatest Christian thinkers, St Augustine, said of time.....

For what is time? Who can readily and truly explain this?...........If no one asks me, I know; if I wish to explain it to one that asketh, I know not; yet I say boldly that I know, that if nothing passed away, time past were not; and if nothing were coming, a time to come were not; and if nothing were, time present were not.......But the present, should it always be present, and never pass into time past, verily it should not be time, but eternity.

As I have now told you twice, for me eternity is timelessness, not a period of time that passes before or after time as we as human beings experience it.

You tell me "you just ignore many important things/facts/circumstances". I would say that given your own belief in the age of our earth being just a few thousand years, it is in fact you who ignore many important things/facts/circumstances.

Yes, there are many "false Christs". Assuming oneself to be of the elect is one time honoured way of proclaiming them.
 
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Fizzywig

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i don't read scriptures, considering that i read only all the books of the New Testament twice many years ago, but this doesn't prevent me from knowing/understanding what is written in the Bible and i don't need any human to teach me the truth of God, because the Spirit of the true Lord God gives me what to speak when i speak a God's word

there should be some reasonable explanation, otherwise, if there was no such, many people would quite rightly say "why must we be good to the sinners if they will anyway go to and suffer in hell?!", or "there is no love for the sinners that is right/justified", etc., that is why Solomon said:

Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 "I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past."

Blessings

Sorry, I see only self-commendation and presumption in what you say. So in the past you read the NT twice and now you are able to interpret if correctly because you are of the elect? Me, I do not need "reasonable explanations" not to ask the sort of questions you pose. I have no need to know what Solomon said.

Once again, I need to have trust that I am accepted, just as I am. My trust in that, I find, leads to accepting others. As I see it, any human being who actually asks why they should be good to sinners as they are going to hell anyway, has got their head in a bucket, and thinking the Bible has given them the answer shows they have not understood a word.
 
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toLiJC

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Well, poor old fizzy is coming in for it!

No matter. I agree with those who would say that one of the first steps to any sort of knowledge/wisdom, is to know what you do not know. One of the greatest Christian thinkers, St Augustine, said of time.....

For what is time? Who can readily and truly explain this?...........If no one asks me, I know; if I wish to explain it to one that asketh, I know not; yet I say boldly that I know, that if nothing passed away, time past were not; and if nothing were coming, a time to come were not; and if nothing were, time present were not.......But the present, should it always be present, and never pass into time past, verily it should not be time, but eternity.

As I have now told you twice, for me eternity is timelessness, not a period of time that passes before or after time as we as human beings experience it.

You tell me "you just ignore many important things/facts/circumstances". I would say that given your own belief in the age of our earth being just a few thousand years, it is in fact you who ignore many important things/facts/circumstances.

Yes, there are many "false Christs". Assuming oneself to be of the elect is one time honoured way of proclaiming them.

the time is indefinitely existing in the universe as a part of it, i mean the time as constantly passing/elapsing i.e. in the form of e.g. one second, two seconds, three seconds, and so on..., no matter whether there is any human measure of time, the time is something that runs constantly regardless of whether it is measured in seconds/minutes/etc. or another units of time, but the time as a speed is something different...

eternity is a circle of souls' positions and events, not just a time's infinity - this is what you ignore as to the question of eternity

Blessings
 
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Fizzywig

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the time is indefinitely existing in the universe as a part of it, i mean the time as constantly passing/elapsing i.e. in the form of e.g. one second, two seconds, three seconds, and so on..., no matter whether there is any human measure of time, the time is something that runs constantly regardless of whether it is measured in seconds/minutes/etc. or another units of time, but the time as a speed is something different...

eternity is a circle of souls' positions and events, not just a time's infinity - this is what you ignore as to the question of eternity

Blessings

No, I do not ignore anything. As I said, eternity (timelessness) embraces time. Thus our "souls positions and events" are within both time and eternity. This is the thought that can lead to what is known as mysticism, the movement from "I-Thou" to "Not I, but Christ lives in me" (St Paul)
 
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toLiJC

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Sorry, I see only self-commendation and presumption in what you say. So in the past you read the NT twice and now you are able to interpret if correctly because you are of the elect? Me, I do not need "reasonable explanations" not to ask the sort of questions you pose. I have no need to know what Solomon said.

Once again, I need to have trust that I am accepted, just as I am. My trust in that, I find, leads to accepting others. As I see it, any human being who actually asks why they should be good to sinners as they are going to hell anyway, has got their head in a bucket, and thinking the Bible has given them the answer shows they have not understood a word.

nothing can prevent the human who is faithful to the truth from speaking it correctly, even if he/she is (still) very small in this subject/matter (they can at least speak some piece of truth, whoever he or she may be if they are really faithful to the truth)

don't be too hasty to say that you don't need to understand the truth

if you seek only acceptance, then why did you argue with me on issues of eternity in this thread?!

Blessings
 
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Fizzywig

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nothing can prevent the human who is faithful to the truth from speaking it correctly, even if he/she is (still) very small in this subject/matter (they can at least speak some piece of truth, whoever he or she may be if they are really faithful to the truth)

don't be too hasty to say that you don't need to understand the truth

if you seek only acceptance, then why did you argue with me on issues of eternity in this thread?!

Blessings

Once again you proclaim yourself "faithful to the truth". But let us leave that.

If you go back, this discussion began with you speaking of circles of on-going judgement, much in the manner of an eye for an eye. I sought to argue that mercy/grace breaks the circuit. Sorry if I have been unclear.

I sought to stay with my original point, and such led to talk of time and eternity.

As far as understanding the truth, for me any "understanding" I might have has grown from the trust in having been accepted. It follows that "truth" is alive, living, a relationship, on-going, found and GIVEN in the living of it. It is not a doctrine or some interpretation of a "holy" book.
 
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fat wee robin

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nothing breaks the eternal circle of positions and events, because there is a beginning as well as an end of eternity, which are the beginning and the end of the so-called single eternity, i.e. the single cycle of eternity - a period longer than a millennium, whose full circle is the full cycle of the single eternities:

Revelation 14:11 (Aramaic Bible in PE) "the smoke of their torment ascends for the eternity of eternities, and there is no rest, day or night, for those who worship The Beast and its Image and for him who takes the mark of its name.",

Revelation 19:2-3 (Aramaic Bible in PE) "he has judged The Great harlot, who corrupted The Earth with her whoredom and he has required the blood of his Servants from her hand. Again, they said, "Hallelujah!" And her smoke ascends to the eternity of eternities.",

Revelation 22:3-11 (Aramaic Bible in PE) "no curse shall be there, and the throne of God and of The Lamb shall be in it, and his Servants shall serve him. And they shall see his face and his Name shall be upon their foreheads. And there shall be no night there and neither will they need lights, lamps, or the light of the Sun, because THE LORD God gives them light, and he is their King for the eternity of eternities... he who does evil, will do evil again(i.e. in next eternities); he who is foul, again will be polluted(i.e. in next eternities); the righteous again will do righteousness and the holy will again be hallowed(i.e. in next eternities)."

so here is how the system of human(666) religion and spiritual iniquity is already judged for ever and ever - it just doesn't pay to worship/serve the other "god(s)"

Blessings
This indicates to me that we live many times .
 
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toLiJC

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No, I do not ignore anything. As I said, eternity (timelessness) embraces time. Thus our "souls positions and events" are within both time and eternity. This is the thought that can lead to what is known as mysticism, the movement from "I-Thou" to "Not I, but Christ lives in me" (St Paul)

you leave an impression that you follow only what you found/find to be good for yourself, i mean e.g. only some parts of books - the part that is according to your desire/wish

Once again you proclaim yourself "faithful to the truth". But let us leave that.

If you go back, this discussion began with you speaking of circles of on-going judgement, much in the manner of an eye for an eye. I sought to argue that mercy/grace breaks the circuit. Sorry if I have been unclear.

I sought to stay with my original point, and such led to talk of time and eternity.

As far as understanding the truth, for me any "understanding" I might have has grown from the trust in having been accepted. It follows that "truth" is alive, living, a relationship, on-going, found and GIVEN in the living of it. It is not a doctrine or some interpretation of a "holy" book.

if the soul lives ad infinitum in paradise, then why have so many souls been in this world under sin and death since the day of the original sin(fall), instead of being in paradise for the same time?!, don't you realize that in order to be possible for the souls to live or suffer for ever and ever, they must be indefinitely existing in the universe, otherwise, if it is not so, it won't be possible for them to live or suffer for ever and ever, because at some point they will stop existing and being available/present at all?!, and if the souls are indefinitely existing, then where were they and what did they do during all that time's infinity which had been before God created the world 5-6 millennia ago?! - there must (have) be(en) something

Blessings
 
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Fizzywig

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you leave an impression that you follow only what you found/find to be good for yourself, i mean e.g. only some parts of books - the part that is according to your desire/wish

I suppose we all form some sort of impression from posts made on this forum. Going beyond "impressions" I note that you now take the tack of so many, i.e. in effect attacking another rather than addressing the issues and arguments they have raised.

I have followed the Pure Land path for almost 20 years now, it begins with acceptance, "Come just as you are". And our life becomes one of gratitude. Most of the quotes that I post here I like simply because they support this life and speak in favour of it (and condemn what could be called "works" and "formulas of salvation") a life of surrender to grace, the unfolding of all its implications.

if the soul lives ad infinitum in paradise, then why have so many souls been in this world under sin and death since the day of the original sin(fall), instead of being in paradise for the same time?!, don't you realize that in order to be possible for the souls to live or suffer for ever and ever, they must be indefinitely existing in the universe, otherwise, if it is not so, it won't be possible for them to live or suffer for ever and ever, because at some point they will stop existing and being available/present at all?!, and if the souls are indefinitely existing, then where were they and what did they do during all that time's infinity which had been before God created the world 5-6 millennia ago?! - there must (have) be(en) something

Blessings

You are welcome to your own interpretations of the Bible, all the eternal suffering etc etc. Possibly your own wishes and desires are other than my own.

Thank you
 
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