what is apostalic church?

janny108 · Jul 3, 2016

Is it like wof? Do they believe or practice something different from wof?

thanks
Jan

Razare · Jul 5, 2016

I guess I became "apostolic" sort of...

The main difference is they teach strong on water baptism. So... repent, water baptize, and then get Holy Spirit with tongues or prophesy. Acts 2:38

Where I might not agree with apostolic is that failing to do all this would send a person to hell. I would say rather, it is absolutely required but should a person fail to do it, they may not go to hell.

I believe repentance of the heart in Romans 10 will get the Holy Spirit inside of us.

But because I was in WoF type of teaching, I got born again in my spirit, and then I spoke in tongues like Cornelius, but then I waited 2 years to get water baptized!!! It was terrible.

Toward the end of that, I literally had supernatural manifestations of flies around my body. Like flies would manifest from nothing and fly out away from me. And even like this, I was doing better than any lost person, so I thought it was fine... "Just have to resist and confess more!!!" ... No. You got to bury that old man that you still wear.

There is Spirit, Soul, and Body. WoF and Pentecoastal teaches a lot of you get your spirit sealed and born again, but what apostolic teaches is that you can also get a clean soul miraculously through baptism.

This is required. Otherwise you drag a dead body around trying to do the works of Jesus. Now, what WoF/Pentecoastal teach is that baptism is symbolic but you're supposed to learn that you were crucified in Christ. Ok... but in the NT, they just baptized people and in a short while they were ready to go, having been fully cleansed from sins in their soul from the onset of that. It didn't take them long at all to get into the ministry.

WoF makes it seems like you got sit reading your Bible multiple years before you are ready. It's not true! You get that new breath of God in you, but then you dunk the soul in the deep, and when you come up you have a new soul cleansed of sin.

That new soul can grow in revelation of God's word. Jesus was perfect but he grew in Wisdom. Luke 2:52

Because of this huge, huge difference after being water baptized + holy spirit with tongues, most apostolic types think everyone else is lost.

In my view, no. But before I was baptized in water, sometimes I would have to pray all through the night and not sleep because the devil was so strong in my soulish realm I had to hang on to my salvation with everything I had.

WoF people focus a lot on their gut where the Holy Spirit is at. But really, the Holy Spirit is supposed to live in your whole body, soul, and spirit. Not just your spirit. And the old man is just supposed to be gone by the supernatural power of God to crucify the flesh.

I would again just say because I came out of WoF, I realize WoF people are saved. They got born again. And if they are obedient to baptism, they are fine because they wont struggle so bad.

But!!! The power available from God gets amped up if you get revelation of water baptism and put faith in it. You can see miracles when you water baptize people! You can see them healed by allowing people to put faith in the old man going down into the deep. It makes a lot of sense if you understand spirit, soul, and body. Most apostolics I do not believe understand spirit soul and body, so they see a rotting soul in a lot of people and think "Oh, lost person! They weren't baptized!"

But apostolic isn't good either because it's a denomination that is living in a box like other denominations. Preach the gospel directly, spread it, and train others to do Acts 2:38. Do Acts 2:38 and then train others to do it, and then they train others, so on.

Just last Saturday because we were following this model, we saw miracles on the streets. It was great. You flow in God's power easier when we correct this doctrine on water baptism and stop saying it is symbolic. No, it's like communion. Joseph Prince realizes there is power in communion. Well, there is power too in water baptism!

Si_monfaith · Jul 6, 2016

janny108 said:
Is it like wof? Do they believe or practice something different from wof?

thanks
Jan

An apostolic church rejoices in Christ in whatever they do.

They thank God for His Son who is the basis of all conceivable successes in life, career, business, family & ministry etc.

janny108 · Jul 8, 2016

is water baptism like a focal point though?

janny108 · Jul 8, 2016

What do they think of Kenneth Copeland etc

Razare · Jul 8, 2016

janny108 said:
is water baptism like a focal point though?

They teach salvation as the 3 step process in Acts 2:38. So all 3 steps, not 1 step.

In this way, they reject very much these salvation prayers and alter calls for salvation which word of faith people adhere to. For this reason you generally wont find them listening to KCM or Joel Osteen.

If you go to an apostolic church, they will preach, "Hey, we will get you born again today if your heart is convicting you. Right after the service we can get you baptized in water and filled with the Holy Ghost!"

And any sort of nitpicking I personally have discovered in God's word on how they approach this, is irrelevant compared to the Acts 2:38 process. That 3 step process is how every believer aught to bring other believers into the kingdom. That any group of believers would have you pray a prayer, and send you on your merry way without baptizing you in water, and filling you with the Holy Ghost that very day is not correct.

Romans 10 salvation in your heart doctrine was never meant to replace Acts 2:38. It was an explanation of what is transpiring inside someone's heart in Acts 2:38. If you notice in the moment leading up to that, they were "pierced to the heart" and said, "What should we do then?" And Peter responded with exactly what they should do, and what they should do that very day without any delay whatsoever.

Romans 10 explains what happens in their heart, but Acts 2:38 explains precisely what is supposed to happen when someone makes Jesus their Lord in their heart.

I have researched baptisms a great deal, it's something God has given me direct revelation to allow me to understand. So really, I have converted to this way of thinking mainly because God showed me. But because I have my basis in WoF doctrines, I believe a little differently than apostolics.

In John it says, "born of water and the Spirit". WoF teaches the water there is represented by the word of God. Apostolics teach that water is water baptism in that verse.

Razare · Jul 8, 2016

I got revelation from God from this verse Paul gave:

1 Corinthians 10:1 - For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.

While Paul's main point is something else, he takes it for granted that the reader understands the multiple parts of the baptism Israel received in the Red Sea. Notice Paul does not limit it to water, but includes the cloud.

If you study it, that cloud was actually fire in the sky above them because they passed through the sea at night.

And if you study it, there is wind blowing from the East. East is the direction for sound doctrine in scripture, which is something Joseph Prince teaches on. An East Wind slicing through the Red Sea is a picture of the Holy Spirit wind of sound doctrine.

So in Israel's baptism you have...

-Water
-Wind
-Fire

These mirrors the 3 judgements that creation receives. The Flood, The Wind "Now is the judgement of this world" "... "the price of the power of the air would be cast out", judgement of fire in the future for creation see Peter's epistle. Water, Wind, Fire

In John 20:22, the believers having already been baptized in water, receive the wind. In Acts 2, they receive the Fire.

Water, Wind, Fire

Romans 10 describes only the Wind. Not the Water or Fire.

You need all 3 as a believer. If you miss a step you're dysfunctional. I believe we can get that wind in our heart from John 20:22 without having received the water or the fire, yep. But it's still busted without adding the other steps.

Lady&TheCoatofmanycolors · Jul 12, 2016

Razare said:
I guess I became "apostolic" sort of...

The main difference is they teach strong on water baptism. So... repent, water baptize, and then get Holy Spirit with tongues or prophesy. Acts 2:38

Where I might not agree with apostolic is that failing to do all this would send a person to hell. I would say rather, it is absolutely required but should a person fail to do it, they may not go to hell.

I believe repentance of the heart in Romans 10 will get the Holy Spirit inside of us.

But because I was in WoF type of teaching, I got born again in my spirit, and then I spoke in tongues like Cornelius, but then I waited 2 years to get water baptized!!! It was terrible.

Toward the end of that, I literally had supernatural manifestations of flies around my body. Like flies would manifest from nothing and fly out away from me. And even like this, I was doing better than any lost person, so I thought it was fine... "Just have to resist and confess more!!!" ... No. You got to bury that old man that you still wear.

There is Spirit, Soul, and Body. WoF and Pentecoastal teaches a lot of you get your spirit sealed and born again, but what apostolic teaches is that you can also get a clean soul miraculously through baptism.

This is required. Otherwise you drag a dead body around trying to do the works of Jesus. Now, what WoF/Pentecoastal teach is that baptism is symbolic but you're supposed to learn that you were crucified in Christ. Ok... but in the NT, they just baptized people and in a short while they were ready to go, having been fully cleansed from sins in their soul from the onset of that. It didn't take them long at all to get into the ministry.

WoF makes it seems like you got sit reading your Bible multiple years before you are ready. It's not true! You get that new breath of God in you, but then you dunk the soul in the deep, and when you come up you have a new soul cleansed of sin.

That new soul can grow in revelation of God's word. Jesus was perfect but he grew in Wisdom. Luke 2:52

Because of this huge, huge difference after being water baptized + holy spirit with tongues, most apostolic types think everyone else is lost.

In my view, no. But before I was baptized in water, sometimes I would have to pray all through the night and not sleep because the devil was so strong in my soulish realm I had to hang on to my salvation with everything I had.

WoF people focus a lot on their gut where the Holy Spirit is at. But really, the Holy Spirit is supposed to live in your whole body, soul, and spirit. Not just your spirit. And the old man is just supposed to be gone by the supernatural power of God to crucify the flesh.

I would again just say because I came out of WoF, I realize WoF people are saved. They got born again. And if they are obedient to baptism, they are fine because they wont struggle so bad.

But!!! The power available from God gets amped up if you get revelation of water baptism and put faith in it. You can see miracles when you water baptize people! You can see them healed by allowing people to put faith in the old man going down into the deep. It makes a lot of sense if you understand spirit, soul, and body. Most apostolics I do not believe understand spirit soul and body, so they see a rotting soul in a lot of people and think "Oh, lost person! They weren't baptized!"

But apostolic isn't good either because it's a denomination that is living in a box like other denominations. Preach the gospel directly, spread it, and train others to do Acts 2:38. Do Acts 2:38 and then train others to do it, and then they train others, so on.

Just last Saturday because we were following this model, we saw miracles on the streets. It was great. You flow in God's power easier when we correct this doctrine on water baptism and stop saying it is symbolic. No, it's like communion. Joseph Prince realizes there is power in communion. Well, there is power too in water baptism!

good testimony!

Lady&TheCoatofmanycolors · Jul 12, 2016

Somehow , thinking because we switched churches so much when I was a kid ... listen to this

started out Nazarene baptised...oh maybe 5 , then parents became Baptist ... baptized again ooh about thirteen years old .. Got saved in another Missionary Baptist Curch in my 20s ... Then I Got filled with the Holy Ghost in my 3os and Lol ... do I need to do It again ?? probably not ..

40 Full revelation of Son/ Daughtership
Been thinking about it lately

CGL1023 · Aug 21, 2016

Razare said:
I guess I became "apostolic" sort of...

Where I might not agree with apostolic is that failing to do all this would send a person to hell. I would say rather, it is absolutely required but should a person fail to do it, they may not go to hell.

I don't know Apostolic doctrine and I find your comment above interesting. I have only known of either heaven or hell as destination on departing this earthly life. Are you suggesting that there may be a third destination?

Razare · Aug 22, 2016

CGL1023 said:
I don't know Apostolic doctrine and I find your comment above interesting. I have only known of either heaven or hell as destination on departing this earthly life. Are you suggesting that there may be a third destination?

I learned more since I posted that, because God had to show me the truth since no one is really teaching it.

There is only heaven and hell and eternal hell... Two hells. Sheol vs. Eternal Fire But right now, only Sheol is in place.

As for what each basically teach:

Apostolic: Mark 16:16 - Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

and then Pentecoastal branches teach the Romans 10 confession for salvation.

And so I personally had to figure who is right and who is wrong. God showed me from scripture both are wrong. The word says in Mark 16:16 you are not saved unless you are water baptized.

But Mark 16:16 also says, you are not condemned if you believe. Because the 2nd part of that verse concerns no condemnation. No condemnation is achieved by just believing, thus sending a person to heaven.

The key to understand then is to realize a common word of Faith teaching. Salvation is not going to heaven. Salvation includes salvation of spirit, soul, and body. The word salvation includes bodily deliverance from sicknesses.

God gave me a long proof from scripture, but what the truth is... Believing produces spiritual salvation. John 20:22 & Romans 10 & Matthew 13 Water baptism produces bodily salvation. Romans 6 and Mark 16:16 Renewing our mind to the word, produces the salvation of our souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Spirit, Soul and Body - 1 Thessalonians 5:23

God used the baptism of the nation of Israel to really hammer it into my thinking. No one is really teaching it correctly, from what I've seen.

What everyone does is either pick Romans 10 and hammer on that... or they pick water baptism and really hammer that. And the people who believe both, just teach, "Well, you better do all of it just to be sure!" but they can't tell you what happens in each instance where someone isn't water baptized.

Part of the problem with believing the truth is, if you actually believe it, you will realize you can never be physically ill for the remainder of your life. But before I was water baptized, I had already believed Psalm 91 for total deliverance from sickness and diseases... so I no longer got colds or flues or other illnesses. So believing the total redemption of the body in this life wasn't a stretch, because this is what Romans 6 teaches.

There is a reason scripture says that Christians, "fall asleep". It's because Paul was denying the power of death on a Christian, and the power of all diseases and sicknesses. Christians should just fall asleep one day and go to be with the Lord. Our "deaths" are not real deaths, since death has no power on a Christian in this life.

If a human body is baptized into Christ's death, how can it any longer be subject to death? It can't. It would be double-jeapordy, and double judgement and God would have violated the law. A water baptized Christian body is not subject to death.

Razare · Aug 22, 2016

And here is another correction to teaching that no one is teaching...

Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. - John 3:5

Apostolics are teaching that water here means water baptism. Word of Faith and Kenneth Hagin would teach that water here symbolized the word.

Apostolics were right, it is actually water baptism if you study it out. In John's gospel, "water" used alone means literal water and nothing else. If it is a spiritual water, he used "rivers of living water" or "living water"... but that sort of descriptor was not applied here.

But what neither Apostolic or Word of Faith people knew was that this is not talking about going to heaven. It is talking about the Kingdom of God. These are two different things. Abraham made it to heaven, but he was not a member of the Kingdom of God.

I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. - luke 7:28

If Abraham was saved without belonging to the kingdom of God, then clearly the kingdom of God is something above and beyond being saved by God. What is it? Well, God taught me today by using a minister who came to our church.
----------------------------------------

Mark 4 And again He began to teach by the sea. And a great multitude was gathered to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat in it on the sea; and the whole multitude was on the land facing the sea. 2 Then He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in His teaching:

3 “Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it. 5 Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away. 7 And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. 8 But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

9 And He said to them, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

The Purpose of Parables
10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,
-------------------------------------------

The mystery of the kingdom of God is revealed in the seed parable because Christ said it this was the mystery of the kingdom of God.

Anyone who knows and understands the seed parable, then understands the kingdom of God. They understand that there is a seed Christ, sewn into the heart, which produces the new spiritual birth into Christ. Not the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but the new Spirit of Christ indwelling us.

But this is not just salvation. This is the kingdom of God dwelling in us, according to Mark 4:11.

This kingdom includes power. Romans 14:17

You can make it into heaven without power. And so when it says, you must be born of water baptism and the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God... this means to fully operate in Kingdom Principles in your life, spirit, soul, and body, you must be water baptized.

It is not talking about going to heaven when you die. Other than, the only way to get saved today is to believe upon Jesus and receive a reborn spirit. But salvation is not the kingdom of God! The kingdom of God is power. Plenty of Christians will make it to heaven, Christians who just believed but have no power in their life, still subjected to the law of sin and death.

CGL1023 · Aug 22, 2016

Razare said:
And so I personally had to figure who is right and who is wrong. God showed me from scripture both are wrong. The word says in Mark 16:16 you are not saved unless you are water baptized.

How do you know that the baptizm of Mark 16:16 is water baptizm and not Holy Spirit Baptizm. The context of Mark 16:17-18 refers to gifts of the Spirit in operation--"heal the sick", "speak with other tongues". Further, VS 16 comes first as if it prepares the way for activities of VS 17 and VS 18.

Razare · Aug 22, 2016

CGL1023 said:
How do you know that the baptizm of Mark 16:16 is water baptizm and not Holy Spirit Baptizm. The context of Mark 16:17-18 refers to gifts of the Spirit in operation--"heal the sick", "speak with other tongues". Further, VS 16 comes first as if it prepares the way for activities of VS 17 and VS 18.

Holy Spirit baptism isn't required for salvation. Almost no one teaches that. It would be false for many reasons.

The Holy Spirit baptism is called, "clothed with power from on-high" Luke 24:49... but power clothing from on-high hasn't anything to do with whether you enter heaven or not.

So trying to say that Mark 16:16 is Holy Ghost baptism doesn't line up well with anything, because then no one would be saved unless they had power clothing. But what does power clothing have to do with the salvation of Spirit, Soul, and Body?

Also, there are other reasons that are longer to explain. But even WoF people do not teach that you require Holy Spirit baptism with speaking in tongues / prophecy in order to be saved... not anyone I have listened to at least.

The church first received the Holy Spirit for salvation of their spirits in John 20:22. The Acts 2 Holy Spirit is clothing, and a further infilling for ministry purposes, not salvation purposes.

W2L · Aug 22, 2016

Razare said:
Holy Spirit baptism isn't required for salvation. Almost no one teaches that. It would be false for many reasons.

The Holy Spirit baptism is called, "clothed with power from on-high" Luke 24:49... but power clothing from on-high hasn't anything to do with whether you enter heaven or not.

So trying to say that Mark 16:16 is Holy Ghost baptism doesn't line up well with anything, because then no one would be saved unless they had power clothing. But what does power clothing have to do with the salvation of Spirit, Soul, and Body?

Also, there are other reasons that are longer to explain. But even WoF people do not teach that you require Holy Spirit baptism with speaking in tongues / prophecy in order to be saved... not anyone I have listened to at least.

The church first received the Holy Spirit for salvation of their spirits in John 20:22. The Acts 2 Holy Spirit is clothing, and a further infilling for ministry purposes, not salvation purposes.

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Razare · Aug 22, 2016

W2L said:
Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

Problem is, it's difficult to pull that into a gospel written by a different author, just because an epistle says it.

Water in John, just means water. What you're doing is only slightly better than going back to the OT, and saying, "See spiritual water in the OT, so that's what John's Gospel must mean because it's convenient for what I already believe."

But it's simpler just to believe what the word says, not what we want it to say. And what it says is just fine, and doesn't disagree with WoF teaching even... just we were deceived on other points, like "What is salvation?"

Most WoF teachers today have already caught-up though so this isn't an issue (didn't even Hagin teach it?), the word sozo includes an all-encompassing package that includes physical healing for today.

Sozo isn't really talking about going to heaven when you die. So saying that a part of your salvation is water baptism, doesn't threaten the doctrine of eternal life through believing in Jesus with justification by faith.

They're not 1 for 1 the same. And if you study spirit, soul and body teachings from Andrew Wommack, I think you'll realize this is true.

Jesus and the apostles weren't actually all that concerned with getting people into heaven. Their primary concern was rather the kingdom of God and the preaching of the good news of this kingdom. It is the gospel that delivers us in this life, and redeems in this life. It produces fruit in this life.

Part of seeing this fruit is enabled by water baptism. But water baptism is never stated in scripture as a requirement for no condemnation under the laws of God for your new eternal spirit.

People think water baptism is a threat because they don't understand why it is a benefit and not a threat. Just believe Romans 6... either you believe it or you don't. It's stated plainly there. If you want to cherry-pick verses and exclude Romans 6, then why not also exclude Romans 10? Why is Romans 6 worse than Romans 10?

It's all the truth, just believe it, and fix the dumb parts of the doctrines that were wrong.

W2L · Aug 22, 2016

Razare said:
Problem is, it's difficult to pull that into a gospel written by a different author, just because an epistle says it.

Water in John, just means water. What you're doing is only slightly better than going back to the OT, and saying, "See spiritual water in the OT, so that's what John's Gospel must mean because it's convenient for what I already believe."

But it's simpler just to believe what the word says, not what we want it to say. And what it says is just fine, and doesn't disagree with WoF teaching even... just we were deceived on other points, like "What is salvation?"

Most WoF teachers today have already caught-up though so this isn't an issue (didn't even Hagin teach it?), the word sozo includes an all-encompassing package that includes physical healing for today.

Sozo isn't really talking about going to heaven when you die. So saying that a part of your salvation is water baptism, doesn't threaten the doctrine of eternal life through believing in Jesus with justification by faith.

They're not 1 for 1 the same. And if you study spirit, soul and body teachings from Andrew Wommack, I think you'll realize this is true.

Jesus and the apostles weren't actually all that concerned with getting people into heaven. Their primary concern was rather the kingdom of God and the preaching of the good news of this kingdom. It is the gospel that delivers us in this life, and redeems in this life. It produces fruit in this life.

Part of seeing this fruit is enabled by water baptism. But water baptism is never stated in scripture as a requirement for no condemnation under the laws of God for your new eternal spirit.

People think water baptism is a threat because they don't understand why it is a benefit and not a threat. Just believe Romans 6... either you believe it or you don't. It's stated plainly there. If you want to cherry-pick verses and exclude Romans 6, then why not also exclude Romans 10? Why is Romans 6 worse than Romans 10?

It's all the truth, just believe it, and fix the dumb parts of the doctrines that were wrong.

I believe that we are saved by Gods mercy. I don't believe a simple act of water baptism, or rather the lack of it, can thwart Gods mercy. I believe what Paul says, that its with the heart that we believe and are saved.

Razare · Aug 23, 2016

W2L said:
I believe that we are saved by Gods mercy. I don't believe a simple act of water baptism, or rather the lack of it, can thwart Gods mercy. I believe what Paul says, that its with the heart that we believe and are saved.

Now you're twisting what I said to make it say something else.

hhodgson · Aug 23, 2016

W2L said:
Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

W2L... This is excellent. Welcome BTW to the Word/Faith forum.

hhodgson · Aug 23, 2016

Razare said:
Problem is, it's difficult to pull that into a gospel written by a different author, just because an epistle says it.

Water in John, just means water. What you're doing is only slightly better than going back to the OT, and saying, "See spiritual water in the OT, so that's what John's Gospel must mean because it's convenient for what I already believe."

But it's simpler just to believe what the word says, not what we want it to say. And what it says is just fine, and doesn't disagree with WoF teaching even... just we were deceived on other points, like "What is salvation?"

Most WoF teachers today have already caught-up though so this isn't an issue (didn't even Hagin teach it?), the word sozo includes an all-encompassing package that includes physical healing for today.

Hi Razare. Could you elaborate a little more on the dark area of what you are meaning to say. I don't quite get it. Thank you much...

what is apostalic church?

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