Why are so many protestants anti-Catholic and/or anti-Orthodox

MarkRohfrietsch · Jul 8, 2016

miamited said:
Hi thursday,

I'm sure you've read the seven letters to the churches that Jesus himself authored through the pen of John. Most of those churches were accused of having fallen into some sort of heresy. Now, we know that these churches were a part of the churches that Jesus started and he felt it necessary to reach out to them and make an attempt to get them to correct their failing. So, I wouldn't be too upset that your church has also fallen into heresy. According to the testimony of the seven letters, most do.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Of those seven Churches, only the one at Mira (Izmir Turkey) has remained viable from that day until now. That Church is Eastern Orthodox, and that Church has maintained the belief in the Real Presence from the very beginning. This was St. Nicholas's Church; even jolly old St. Nick who knew (and still does) who was naughty and who was nice, believed in the Biblical "Real Presence".

MarkRohfrietsch · Jul 8, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
How can you even know the promises of Jesus.
He never told us to listen to the rcc.

You might be surprised if you went to a Catholic Church, they read the Bible, in Church, in a very systematic way and over the course of three years of Sundays, the Psalms, OT, Epistles and the Gospels are almost completely covered. I know this because my Chruch uses the same Lecionary as the CC does.

amariselle · Jul 8, 2016

prodromos said:
You said icons were not biblical yet God commanded the Jews to fill the temple with icons. Now you are trying to interpret away this fact.

What you see among many Christians who venerate physical and material objects to a near worshipful status, is indeed unBiblical.

The Ark was not a relic, the Lord was indeed present there and in the tabernacle. However, there is NOTHING in the NT that indicates Jesus will be present in any object. If you read the NT you can see He is present with us because His Spirit is in US, not an inanimate object.

prodromos said:
Why do you suppose God does so many miracles through the relics of Saints if they are not holy?

There are many many false signs and wonders that have and are leading people astray. The Bible warns against this.

Only God is Holy, no relic is or ever will be.

prodromos · Jul 8, 2016

amariselle said:
What you see among many Christians who venerate physical and material objects to a near worshipful status, is indeed unBiblical.

The vast majority of what we do in our lives is unBiblical. That doesn't make it unlawful or unprofitable.

The Ark was not a relic, the Lord was indeed present there and in the tabernacle. However, there is NOTHING in the NT that indicates Jesus will be present in any object. If you read the NT you can see He is present with us because His Spirit is in US, not an inanimate object.

Jesus' robe healed the woman with the flow of blood. People were healed by handkerchiefs sent by Paul. Others expected to be healed simply by Peter's shadow passing over them, presumably they had good reason to expect this. In the Old Testament we read of a dead man coming back to life after his body made contact with the relics of Elisha. It is apparent to many of us that God's grace stays with the physical remains of those who in life were filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit, so common are the miracles associated with them.

There are many many false signs and wonders that have and are leading people astray. The Bible warns against this.

The Bible also warns against blaspheming the Holy Spirit

Only God is Holy, no relic is or ever will be.

You should read the Old Testament. Many things are declared by God to be Holy

amariselle · Jul 8, 2016

prodromos said:
The vast majority of what we do in our lives is unBiblical. That doesn't make it unlawful or unprofitable.

I am absolutely convinced that the veneration of physical objects and considering them holy is indeed a problem.

prodromos said:
Jesus' robe healed the woman with the flow of blood.

No, JESUS healed the woman with the flow of blood. Through her faith in Him, she was made well. Read the story, power goes out from Jesus, not His robe.

prodromos said:
People were healed by handkerchiefs sent by Paul. Others expected to be healed simply by Peter's shadow passing over them, presumably they had good reason to expect this. In the Old Testament we read of a dead man coming back to life after his body made contact with the relics of Elisha. It is apparent to many of us that God's grace stays with the physical remains of those who in life were filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit, so common are the miracles associated with them.

People were not healed by those objects or material things at all, they were healed by God THROUGH them.

And there is absolutely nothing in Scripture to indicate that the objects themselves should be venerated in any way.

Not to mention the fact that after all these years relics are highly disputed. Different churches have been arguing that they possess the "real" such and such for hundreds of years. We are not to put our faith in such things, but in Christ alone.

prodromos said:
The Bible also warns against blaspheming the Holy Spirit

Are you accusing me of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

prodromos said:
You should read the Old Testament. Many things are declared by God to be Holy

God alone is holy, not mere objects. Any holiness people have is not their holiness at all, but God's.

OrthodoxForever · Jul 8, 2016

amariselle said:
Are you accusing me of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

God alone is holy, not mere objects. Any holiness people have is not their holiness at all, but God's.

No one denies that the holiness of the saints is not because of them but because of Christ, we venerate them precisely because their examples lead us straight back to Him. Objects, such as Jesus' robes are also holy because of Him no matter who they belonged to. This might even be what some have against the concepts of Real Presence in Holy Communion, after all the bread and wine are no more than that until they are consecrated by God through the Priest.

If I am to understand that Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can be defined by defiant irreverence and disbelief then yes, in the same way you likely think we're committing idolatry I believe that you and everyone else who limits God's power by saying that He cannot work through the objects and people of this world and indeed those people He has already called home to the next and are defiantly irreverent toward His saints are indeed committing Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Since I myself abandoned this very attitude for the real truth of scripture I have been praying that everyone who believes this might have their eyes opened.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 8, 2016

OrthodoxForever said:
we venerate them

I don't agree with this at all.
Over all, OT and NT, Law and Grace, in Jesus, there is no reason to ever 'venerate them',
and many reasons not to (seeings what happened historically opposed to the Gospel the last 2000 years) .
I think it is actually contrary to God's Plan and Purpose in Jesus, and to Scripture, all.
And this is not 'doctrinally' nor at all 'what verse' type of deal (although many might have a bearing on it) -
simply the Spirit of the Law of LIfe in Christ Jesus, has set me free from the law of sin and death,
in line with HIS WORD totally - no contradiction , no dis-harmony, no dis-traction from the truth and purity of Jesus and of seeking Jesus.
Jesus is dismayed at much of the so-called "veneration" that goes on every day TODAY,
as far as His Spirit bears witness with my spirit in Him, abiding in His Word.

OrthodoxForever · Jul 8, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
I don't agree with this at all.
Over all, OT and NT, Law and Grace, in Jesus, there is no reason to ever 'venerate them',
and many reasons not to (seeings what happened historically opposed to the Gospel the last 2000 years) .
I think it is actually contrary to God's Plan and Purpose in Jesus, and to Scripture, all.
And this is not 'doctrinally' nor at all 'what verse' type of deal (although many might have a bearing on it) -
simply the Spirit of the Law of LIfe in Christ Jesus, has set me free from the law of sin and death,
in line with HIS WORD totally - no contradiction , no dis-harmony, no dis-traction from the truth and purity of Jesus and of seeking Jesus.
Jesus is dismayed at much of the so-called "veneration" that goes on every day TODAY,
as far as His Spirit bears witness with my spirit in Him, abiding in His Word.

1. Then what did Christians do for the first 300 years when there was no widespread official canon yet?

2. The Unified church from which BOTH Catholicism and Orthodoxy descend GAVE us the canon so if we're wrong about everything why trust us about that?

3. Even if you're right, that begs the rather serious question about why Protestants today refuse to utilize the full canon of scripture.

4. Would you be so kind as to address my other points as well?

Albion · Jul 8, 2016

OrthodoxForever said:
3. Even if you're right, that begs the rather serious question about why Protestants today refuse to utilize the full canon of scripture.

On this particular point, your perspective is wrong. There are a dozen different canons among the various historic churches, and the only way in which the Protestant versions of Scripture differ from the Catholic versions is the exclusion of the Apocrypha.

Those books are so starkly different from the rest of the Bible and establish NO doctrine that any of us believes, that it is no wonder that they were in question with the Jews of Jesus' day themselves, with those living in Palestine taking one view of the matter and those living in the Diaspora taking the other. What was the new Christian church to do under those circumstances?

As a result, the Apocrypha/Deutero-Canononical books were NOT completely accepted by the Undivided church. During the Reformation, the Protestants excluded them from establishing any necessary doctrine (but not, note, from the Bibles themselves) and the Roman Church ejected a smaller section of the Apocrypha on its own.

By the way, every time I've worshipped in an EO church, it's been the King James Version of the Bible that the parish and priest used.

OrthodoxForever · Jul 8, 2016

Albion said:
On this particular point, your perspective is wrong. There are a dozen different canons among the various historic churches, and the only way in which the Protestant versions of Scripture differ from the Catholic versions is the exclusion of the Apocrypha.

Those books are so starkly different from the rest of the Bible and establish NO doctrine that any of us believes, that it is no wonder that they were in question with the Jews of Jesus' day themselves, with those living in Palestine taking one view of the matter and those living in the Diaspora taking the other. What was the new Christian church to do under those circumstances?

As a result, the Apocrypha/Deutero-Canononical books were NOT completely accepted by the Undivided church. During the Reformation, the Protestants excluded them from establishing any necessary doctrine (but not, note, from the Bibles themselves) and the Roman Church ejected a smaller section of the Apocrypha on its own.

By the way, every time I've worshipped in an EO church, it's been the King James Version of the Bible that the parish and priest used.

We do have a King James Version of our own that includes the full canon. My own parish uses the Orthodox Version of the NKJV.

Anyway they actually do establish two very important doctrines, it is from them that most of the biblical evidence for Theosis and intercession of the saints comes. To say that the full canon is a modern addition (I'm not really sure if you're claiming this or not but plenty do make that argument) is historically inaccurate because if it was, we EOs and our even more isolated Coptic brethren would not, yet we do use those books and portions of books as part of our Bible

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 8, 2016

OrthodoxForever said:
why trust us about that?

I don't trust you about anything that doesn't exactly line up with and isn't harmonious with all of Scripture and Yhwh's Spirit.

OrthodoxForever said:
3. Even if you're right, that begs the rather serious question about why Protestants today refuse to utilize the full canon of scripture.

I don't know what Protestants have to do with anything in this context.
There is a lot of carnal debate over canon. (on this forum).

OrthodoxForever said:
4. Would you be so kind as to address my other points as well?

See Keith Green's 'the catholic chronicles' and (relatively short and true expose)
Charles Chiniquoy's 'fifty years in .... ... .... ' (a rather long read, detailed too)
There's not room nor desire to reproduce
all the points and what's right or what's wrong , if anything, here.

Albion · Jul 8, 2016

OrthodoxForever said:
We do have a King James Version of our own that includes the full canon. My own parish uses the Orthodox Version of the NKJV.

Anyway they actually do establish two very important doctrines, it is from them that most of the biblical evidence for Theosis and intercession of the saints comes.

OK, I'll give you that. Theosis is a theory that's essentially unique to Orthodoxy and praying to the saints as intercessors is a doctrine the rest of us would call false. But you could say that some Christians do base certain doctrines (but not essential ones, I hope we'd be able to agree) on the Apocrypha. The Roman Catholic Church similarly tries to justify Purgatory on a verse from the Apocrypha.

amariselle · Jul 8, 2016

OrthodoxForever said:
No one denies that the holiness of the saints is not because of them but because of Christ, we venerate them precisely because their examples lead us straight back to Him. Objects, such as Jesus' robes are also holy because of Him no matter who they belonged to. This might even be what some have against the concepts of Real Presence in Holy Communion, after all the bread and wine are no more than that until they are consecrated by God through the Priest.

If I am to understand that Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can be defined by defiant irreverence and disbelief then yes, in the same way you likely think we're committing idolatry I believe that you and everyone else who limits God's power by saying that He cannot work through the objects and people of this world and indeed those people He has already called home to the next and are defiantly irreverent toward His saints are indeed committing Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Since I myself abandoned this very attitude for the real truth of scripture I have been praying that everyone who believes this might have their eyes opened.

Well, you have just accused me (and hundreds of thousands of other Christians) of the one unforgivable sin. I guess we're all going to hell.

In that case there is nothing more to say.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 8, 2016

amariselle said:
Well, you have just accused me (and hundreds of thousands of other Christians) of the one unforgivable sin. I guess we're all going to hell.

In that case there is nothing more to say.

stock up on asbestos !

amariselle · Jul 8, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
stock up on asbestos !

Yeah, that is nasty stuff.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 8, 2016

amariselle said:
Yeah, that is nasty stuff.

Just a footnote: Unfermented s*y (marketed in most foods processed and sold in the usa) makes billions more people sick than that(almost anything) ever did. Refer to 5 white poisons online for some gruesome details foisted on the american citizens for 100 years...

Especially poignant and pertinent because most 'official' parties referred to anywhere in this thread allowed it and many contributed to it being done, willingly , wittingly or not.

Goatee · Jul 8, 2016

Albion said:
OK, I'll give you that. Theosis is a theory that's essentially unique to Orthodoxy and praying to the saints as intercessors is a doctrine the rest of us would call false. But you could say that some Christians do base certain doctrines (but not essential ones, I hope we'd be able to agree) on the Apocrypha. The Roman Catholic Church similarly tries to justify Purgatory on a verse from the Apocrypha.

Few things in the 'Anglican' church that are not Biblical!!

FireDragon76 · Jul 8, 2016

shioks said:
It does not make sense to continue eating His flesh and drink His blood in order to receive His life as it would deem as His flesh and blood only last you for 24 hours or 7 days or 1 month. And, if you were to miss one of the communion, you have no life. I believe eating His flesh and drinking His blood is symbolic for us to remember He has died for our sins.

You are applying human logic to a Holy Mystery.

yeshuaslavejeff said:
I don't agree with this at all.
Over all, OT and NT, Law and Grace, in Jesus, there is no reason to ever 'venerate them',
and many reasons not to (seeings what happened historically opposed to the Gospel the last 2000 years) .

So much sophistry, for "The heart has reasons that Reason cannot know". (Blaise Pascal). You see, there is no law against love (Gal 5:22-23). Anything that draws us to the love of God, may therefore in some sense be a means of grace for us, and lawful.

I for one am thankful that God has graciously given his people the means to partake of his divine life through his lowly creatures of matter (after all, what is the Bible but ink and paper?) and through the example of his blessed saints who have gone on to glory.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 8, 2016

There's also many warnings in Gods' Word against idolatry and disobedience.

OrthodoxForever · Jul 8, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
There's also many warnings in Gods' Word against idolatry and disobedience.

So why not obey Him when He said that the Church should be one and to be vary of anyone teaching differently than what was once and for all delivered to the Saints?

Why are so many protestants anti-Catholic and/or anti-Orthodox

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