Why are so many protestants anti-Catholic and/or anti-Orthodox

amariselle · Jul 7, 2016

Thursday said:
Go to the poorest places on earth and you will see Catholic sharing the love of Jesus by serving the poor and demonstrating God's love.

There are 135 million Catholics in Africa today and it is increasing by about 5 million per year.

The numbers in China are harder to know for sure but there are probably about 30 million Catholics in China.

You are misunderstanding me. I don't doubt that there are Catholics that are truly Christian, not at all. (My own grandparents were Catholic) and I have other family and friends who are as well.

I am discussing the Pope here. (In case you missed that)

Thursday · Jul 7, 2016

amariselle said:
You are misunderstanding me. I don't doubt that there are Catholics that are truly Christian, not at all. (My own grandparents were Catholic) and I have other family and friends who are as well.

I am discussing the Pope here. (In case you missed that)

You doubt that the pope is Christian? He has given his entire life to Christ.

He travels the world teaching about Jesus. What are you talking about?

Here's the first couple of paragraphs from EVANGELII GAUDIUM(the Joy of the Gospel)

1. The joy of the gospel fills the hearts and lives of all who encounter Jesus. Those who accept his offer of salvation are set free from sin, sorrow, inner emptiness and loneliness. With Christ joy is constantly born anew. In this Exhortation I wish to encourage the Christian faithful to embark upon a new chapter of evangelization marked by this joy, while pointing out new paths for the Church’s journey in years to come.

I. A joy ever new, a joy which is shared

2. The great danger in today’s world, pervaded as it is by consumerism, is the desolation and anguish born of a complacent yet covetous heart, the feverish pursuit of frivolous pleasures, and a blunted conscience. Whenever our interior life becomes caught up in its own interests and concerns, there is no longer room for others, no place for the poor. God’s voice is no longer heard, the quiet joy of his love is no longer felt, and the desire to do good fades. This is a very real danger for believers too. Many fall prey to it, and end up resentful, angry and listless. That is no way to live a dignified and fulfilled life; it is not God’s will for us, nor is it the life in the Spirit which has its source in the heart of the risen Christ.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/france...sortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html

amariselle · Jul 7, 2016

Thursday said:
You doubt that the pope is Christian? He has given his entire life to Christ.

He travels the world teaching about Jesus. What are you talking about?

Here's the first couple of paragraphs from EVANGELII GAUDIUM(the Joy of the Gospel)

1. The joy of the gospel fills the hearts and lives of all who encounter Jesus. Those who accept his offer of salvation are set free from sin, sorrow, inner emptiness and loneliness. With Christ joy is constantly born anew. In this Exhortation I wish to encourage the Christian faithful to embark upon a new chapter of evangelization marked by this joy, while pointing out new paths for the Church’s journey in years to come.

I. A joy ever new, a joy which is shared

2. The great danger in today’s world, pervaded as it is by consumerism, is the desolation and anguish born of a complacent yet covetous heart, the feverish pursuit of frivolous pleasures, and a blunted conscience. Whenever our interior life becomes caught up in its own interests and concerns, there is no longer room for others, no place for the poor. God’s voice is no longer heard, the quiet joy of his love is no longer felt, and the desire to do good fades. This is a very real danger for believers too. Many fall prey to it, and end up resentful, angry and listless. That is no way to live a dignified and fulfilled life; it is not God’s will for us, nor is it the life in the Spirit which has its source in the heart of the risen Christ.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/france...sortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html

Once again, you are misunderstanding me. I cannot judge the Pope's heart or anyone else's heart. What I CAN judge however, are his words and actions.

Where is the Gospel of Christ in that video? Where is the message of how we all need Christ and how HE should unite us? Where is the prayer that all would come to know HIM?

Can you answer that?

How does it make any sense that all religions are equal paths to God?

Thursday · Jul 7, 2016

amariselle said:
Once again, you are misunderstanding me. I cannot judge the Pope's heart or anyone else's heart. What I CAN judge however, are his words and actions.

Where is the Gospel of Christ in that video? Where is the message of how we all need Christ and how HE should United us? Where is the prayer that all would come to know HIM?

Can you answer that?

How does it make any sense that all religions are equal paths to God?

Read the link I provided and you will not be able to deny that the Pope is in love with Jesus, is on fire for Jesus, and that he wants the whole world to embrace Jesus.

shioks · Jul 7, 2016

Thursday said:
Does this ring a bell?

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

1 John 4
. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Matt 16
17And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Matt 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

We have gone over all these verses in earlier postings. You continue to quote these verses and we will continue to ask you where does it say RCC? Then you will come back and ask who started the Church to which others have already given their views/interpretations. There is no ending to it as you are going in cycles. You are not listening since you are on high horse. So, back to my earlier question, what's your purpose of you starting this thread?

shioks · Jul 7, 2016

Thursday said:
Posting a list of lies about the Church doesn't help your case.

Let's take a look at these.

From the very first paragraph of the Catechism:

"FATHER, this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved - than the name of JESUS.

Yes, the spouse of the Holy Spirit was ever Virgin as Christians have always believed.

The pope is a sinner like everyone else and the Church does not claim otherwise. His role as successor of Peter gives him unique authority due to the promises of Christ.

Executions were carried out by states, not the Church.

The Church never permitted the selling of indulgences, although some bishops did this.

The Church protected and preserved the word of God and delivered it to the world.

Yes, we should do penance as Jesus instructed us.

It seems to me Pharisees also have long list of laws similar like Catechism?

shioks · Jul 7, 2016

Thursday said:
Go to the poorest places on earth and you will see Catholic sharing the love of Jesus by serving the poor and demonstrating God's love.

There are 135 million Catholics in Africa today and it is increasing by about 5 million per year.

The numbers in China are harder to know for sure but there are probably about 30 million Catholics in China.

Good that Catholic is sharing love of Jesus in Africa and China.

My question to you is whether you have been to Africa or China? Have you seen it with your eyes or merely google.com?

I can tell you for a fact that if you have been to Africa (mind you Africa is not a nation but a continent) and China, you would have easily see Protestant churches are there also. In fact, in China, growth of Protestants are amazing and I praise God for that.

And, I tell you these as a person who have stayed in China and West Africa for years.

Also, if you think African and Chinese are poor, wait till you go there and see for yourself. You will be totally SHOCKED!

I would suggest you to open your blind eyes to see.

shioks · Jul 7, 2016

MarkRohfrietsch said:
I'm a Lutheran and I'm not all that pro-protestant either on a lot of issues; this is one of many.

I try not to identify myself as Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist or, for the matter of fact, even RCC. This is not biblical.
I think Ted also posted this in post 563 and amariselle have also shared that there is no perfect church.

And, I ain't anti-catholic/orthodox.

OrthodoxForever · Jul 7, 2016

miamited said:
Hi all,

You guys have gone on for several pages now about the issue of transubstantiation and I don't think anyone has really gained any further knowledge than what they started with on the subject. I would suggest that if you want to pursue this specific matter that you may want to start a new thread concerning the subject and the evidence thereof.

However, (pulling on the rope as hard as I possibly can) let's get back to the subject of this particular thread. The evidence seems quite clear that the reason protestants, and let me throw baptists in with this discussion, seem to be against catholicism and orthodoxy is pretty much the same reason that the protestant denominations left the RCC in the first place. We have very, very serious disagreements with what these two organizations teach as the truth and their understanding of how the leadership of the local fellowships should be established.

I'm sure that individually we have different specific issues that cause concern. As has been shown here, the issue of transubstantiation and even the purpose of the communion service is an area of disagreement. Some others would be veneration of Mary and the saints. Use of icons and statuary. The practice of indulgences and confessional requirements. What really is the authority of the 'church' and the hierarchy included in that body? How tradition should be seen in the practice of worship and what traditions are biblical and what not?

I am 'against' much of what these two branches of christianity teach and, therefore, that makes me 'anti-'. However, being against what these two organizations teach should in no way be construed or understood as my hating anyone concerning this. Personally, my real feelings are that I feel sorry for those who are caught up in that indoctrination. But, of course, that all depends on my being correct in my understanding of the things of God that we are taught through the Scriptures.

I think that I am, but...

Division among those who profess faith in God has been around at least since the days of Paul, as he wrote about such things. He also said that they must be, in order that we know who knows the truth. Now, that's a tough assignment. If there is division, just as we have here, we all believe that we each know the truth. What the Scriptures teach us is that if we are lacking in wisdom, we should pray to our gracious Father who will give us wisdom in abundance. First, however, in such matters we have to be willing to humble ourselves and say to ourselves that maybe I need wisdom in this. That's what I'm going to do.

God bless you all,
In Christ, Ted

First of all, indulgences were a corruption and an abuse that has been dealt with and to my knowledge no longer exists

There is strong evidence that Iconography dates back to the earliest days when the Church was an underground movement and had yet to cut its ties with Judaism entirely

Veneration of Mary and the Saints is in my experience very much misunderstood by protestants and many who think they are against it aren't actually nearly as opposed to what it actually is as they are to what they think it is.

We have beat the issues surrounding Holy Communion to death now so I've stated how I see it and presented the biblical evidence for this already.

Other traditions that I've found biblical evidence for: recitation of scripture, confession, group prayer, the priestly vestments, apostolic leadership, apostolic confession, women wearing veils in church, Iconography, and even the practice, thought by most even within non-protestant traditions to be purely cultural of kissing each other's cheeks in greeting (found this out at a protestant bible study!)

Also, disagreement with us is not hatred, calling us devil worshipers, saying we're going to Hell, harassing us, demanding we convert, refusing to recognize us as fellow Christians, throwing things at us, trying to perform street exorcisms on us, all of which I've personally experienced, *is*

OrthodoxForever · Jul 7, 2016

amariselle said:
Really? There are NO errors in the Catholic Church, not ONE?

I guess they are right to claim that the Church is built on Peter, not Christ.

I guess they are right in claiming Mary was always a virgin.

I guess they are right to claim one man, the Pope, is simply holier than everyone else.

I guess they were right to burn other Christians at the stake as "heretics."

I guess they were right to sell indulgences.

I guess they are right when they venerate relics.

I guess purgatory is Biblical. (Because obviously Christ's sacrifice for our sins isn't enough)

I guess they were right to keep the word of God from Christians.

I guess they were right to claim we should do penance, as though Christ's work in the cross is somehow insufficient.

Oh, and there's much much more.

But yeah, somehow they're the "perfect" church.

I actually agree with you about the Papacy

There are legitimate reasons to think so while it isn't explicitly said

Again, on the Papacy I'm right there with ya

burning at the stake no, identifying many of the ideas of the reformation as heresy yes

No and they don't do that anymore, it was a corruption that has been dealt with and no longer happens

Yes

No

No and the Orthodox Church never did that, more than once they actually created a written version of the languages they came across to Give people access to the Word

Insufficient no but also not a get out of jail free card as some protestants seem to think

amariselle · Jul 7, 2016

OrthodoxForever said:
First of all, indulgences were a corruption and an abuse that has been dealt with and to my knowledge no longer exists

Actually, indulgences do still exist.

OrthodoxForever said:
There is strong evidence that Iconography dates back to the earliest days when the Church was an underground movement and had yet to cut its ties with Judaism entirely

Either way, iconography is not Biblical.

OrthodoxForever said:
Veneration of Mary and the Saints is in my experience very much misunderstood by protestants and many who think they are against it aren't actually nearly as opposed to what it actually is as they are to what they think it is.

Well apparently some Catholics believe Mary was the wife of the Holy Spirit.

But even the belief that she was always a virgin is not Biblical.

OrthodoxForever said:
We have beat the issues surrounding Holy Communion to death now so I've stated how I see it and presented the biblical evidence for this already.

Other traditions that I've found biblical evidence for: recitation of scripture, confession, group prayer, the priestly vestments, apostolic leadership, apostolic confession, women wearing veils in church, Iconography, and even the practice, thought by most even within non-protestant traditions to be purely cultural of kissing each other's cheeks in greeting (found this out at a protestant bible study!)

Also, disagreement with us is not hatred, calling us devil worshipers, saying we're going to Hell, harassing us, demanding we convert, refusing to recognize us as fellow Christians, throwing things at us, trying to perform street exorcisms on us, all of which I've personally experienced, *is*

Well, no such hateful views have been expressed in this thread.

However, what you are talking about has happened throughout history to Christians of ALL denominations, and sadly, yes, often at the hands of other "Christians."

OrthodoxForever · Jul 7, 2016

amariselle said:
Here's the official video for you, straight from the Vatican itself.

Now, you tell me honestly how he is not diminishing Jesus and our need for Him and Him alone?

How is wanting dialogue and not reacting toward difference with hate diminishing Jesus when it's exactly what He would have done and tried to do by reaching out to the broken, rejected, and the misguided men of power? (thou the latter failed to listen) no where in that video did I see a call for "one world religion"

OrthodoxForever · Jul 7, 2016

amariselle said:
Either way, iconography is not Biblical.

Then what do you call God's orders for the Temple and ark of the covenant to be decorated with gold and angels and doves and fruit?

amariselle · Jul 7, 2016

OrthodoxForever said:
I actually agree with you about the Papacy

There are legitimate reasons to think so while it isn't explicitly said

Again, on the Papacy I'm right there with ya

burning at the stake no, identifying many of the ideas of the reformation as heresy yes

No and they don't do that anymore, it was a corruption that has been dealt with and no longer happens

Yes

No

No and the Orthodox Church never did that, more than once they actually created a written version of the languages they came across to Give people access to the Word

Insufficient no but also not a get out of jail free card as some protestants seem to think

Understood. However, I was speaking about the Catholic Church in response to the claim that it has never taught ANY errors.

amariselle · Jul 8, 2016

OrthodoxForever said:
Then what do you call God's orders for the Temple and ark of the covenant to be decorated with gold and angels and doves and fruit?

He was present there with His people, the Jews through the Ark, (which they carried with them) We do not live in Old Testament times now. God is present with us through the Holy Spirit, that is how He abides with us.

Relics are not holy and they do not bring us closer to God.

amariselle · Jul 8, 2016

OrthodoxForever said:
How is wanting dialogue and not reacting toward difference with hate diminishing Jesus when it's exactly what He would have done and tried to do by reaching out to the broken, rejected, and the misguided men of power? (thou the latter failed to listen) no where in that video did I see a call for "one world religion"

Then you should watch it again, and listen more closely. The Pope is calling for all religions to come together and be placed on an equal level of truth and validity.

That is NOT what Jesus would do. Jesus made it clear that He ALONE is the way to the Father. No one can come to the Father but through Him.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 8, 2016

amariselle said:
That is NOT what Jesus would do. Jesus made it clear that He ALONE is the way to the Father. No one can come to the Father but through Him.

Correct, That is not what Jesus would do, according to His Word, and that's not what Jesus IS doing, according to His Word.
God has kept for Himself a remnant , that's what He says, it's in His Word, and always True.
The remnant TODAY are persecuted throughout the earth.
They will be until Jesus returns.
They will still be a remnant then, and until then, kept by God.
There is no contradiction with any of God's Word thereby.

Other theories, hypothesis, opinions of men or doctrines of demons
contradict God's Word.
That's how they can be ruled out.

prodromos · Jul 8, 2016

Thursday said:
Yes, I guess it is. I believe that Jesus started a single Church, gave his Church leaders, gave those leaders his authority, and gave those leaders his promise that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth and that he would be with them until the end of the world.

That isn't exactly the Catholic position though, is it. Your Church has a leader, not leaders.

prodromos · Jul 8, 2016

amariselle said:
He was present there with His people, the Jews through the Ark, (which they carried with them) We do not live in Old Testament times now. God is present with us through the Holy Spirit, that is how He abides with us.

You said icons were not biblical yet God commanded the Jews to fill the temple with icons. Now you are trying to interpret away this fact.

Relics are not holy and they do not bring us closer to God.

Why do you suppose God does so many miracles through the relics of Saints if they are not holy?

MarkRohfrietsch · Jul 8, 2016

Thursday said:
I was raised Methodist. It was a small country church (more similar to a non denom bible church), so I have no idea if it was in line with Methodist doctrines, but it was always symbolic for us.

I think that is the case with most Methodist Churches today. Here in Canada we have a number of "Free" Methodist Churches that still hold to traditional doctrines and teachings; the "United Chruch of Canada" that absorbed most of the Methodist Congregations Canada-wide also was influenced by Calvinist theology through the very large number of Presbyterian Congregations and other various reformed Congregations. Now it seems that they emphasize a "Christian" humanism, and theology seems to matter much less than it would have 150 years ago. Members are free to hold what ever opinion of the eucharist that they see fit; same goes for baptism.

Why are so many protestants anti-Catholic and/or anti-Orthodox

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