Christian group identity vs. individual identity (gay marriage)

Anna the Seeker · Jul 6, 2016

I think I can see where the debate or conflict on gay marriage is coming from. It's a debate of which identity is more important - the identity of a group or identity of an individual.

If God thinks that man sleeping with a man is a sin, marriage is an union between a man and a woman, and people inside and outside of the church that disagree with it being a sin (and thus disagree with God), and those people want to change the church identity by changing human legistlation, things are bound to get turbulent. Even more so if it's presumed that the identity of the Christian church is shaped by God and not a man. Because to a Christian, human legistlation should not surpass the laws and views of God in importance.

Christianity is still a very visible religion, and somehow these people still want to change Christianity instead of building a Christianity derived religion or belief system of their own, with it's own name. And they still want to be married in the eyes of God, instead of settling with civil marriage, or whatever wedding can be arranged regardless of religion. Or simply skipping any ceremonies and choosing cohabitation.

So, they are seeking approval from someone who clearly does not grant it. And that's God, no less, but priests are still going to say He does.

Anyway, this topic is general Christian group identity vs. individual identity discussion. Gay marriage is just a good example to start with.

OneChristianLight · Jul 6, 2016

I disagree. The reason why gay "marriage" has become such a popular topic the the US has less to do with rampant individualism and more to do with the political left wanting to normalize an "oppressed" group. Leftists tend to identify with and project their feelings onto groups they perceive as "have-nots," hence the reason why the media and the political left in general are crusading for the normalization of sodomy.

Anna the Seeker · Jul 6, 2016

OneChristianLight said:
I disagree. The reason why gay "marriage" has become such a popular topic the the US has less to do with rampant individualism and more to do with the political left wanting to normalize an "oppressed" group. Leftists tend to identify with and project their feelings onto groups they perceive as "have-nots," hence the reason why the media and the political left in general are crusading for the normalization of sodomy.

I mainly posted my point of view because I wonder why the LBGT community has to been so busy trying to change us, the church... they have so many more options to get what they want.

Individualism is made of both knowing that we are, but also knowing what we are not. "Hate" has become an often sowed word for trying to vanish the latter part of it, even though true tolerance would respect both sides of it. If individuality and freedom of choice was truly respected, they would accept that approving sodomy is not a biblical practise.

Don't get me wrong, I do not hate gays, and I can act completely normal in their presence. I just fail to understand their lifestyle.

The massacre at Orlando was certainly not an answer. My thought was that it was the devil's way of harvesting souls, since he certainly is busy. Killing them while they are at their weakest and not knowing the Lord.

OneChristianLight · Jul 7, 2016

Anna the Seeker said:
I mainly posted my point of view because I wonder why the LBGT community has to been so busy trying to change us, the church... they have so many more options to get what they want.

The reason why homosexuals want to change Christianity's teaching on sodomy is because they don't like how the Bible calls their life-style sinful. It's akin to a greedy person saying he doesn't like how the Bible promotes charity and condemns selfishness, so he would want to change the way Christianity does things by not helping the poor and needy.

Anna the Seeker said:
Don't get me wrong, I do not hate gays, and I can act completely normal in their presence. I just fail to understand their lifestyle.

How is the homosexual life-style to be understood? To put it simply, homosexuality is a vice, which, like other vices, its practitioners freely choose or allow themselves to become habituated to because they enjoy it. Homosexuality is also a consciously embraced rebellion against God, morality, and society – just look at gay pride parades where gays organize into perverse, flamboyant transgressions against society's norms for proof of this.

FireDragon76 · Jul 7, 2016

There are some churches that accept gays. In many parts of the country it's not hard to find a church where gay people are welcomed.

In the public arena, we have to deal with each other according to discourse common to all men and women, not necessarily according to divine revelation. This goes back to Luther's doctrine of the Two Kingdoms. Christians opposed to gay marriage have done a poor job showing how opposing gay marriage is in the interests of individual liberty or the public good.

Anna the Seeker · Jul 7, 2016

OneChristianLight said:
How is the homosexual life-style to be understood? To put it simply, homosexuality is a vice, which, like other vices, its practitioners freely choose or allow themselves to become habituated to because they enjoy it. Homosexuality is also a consciously embraced rebellion against God, morality, and society – just look at gay pride parades where gays organize into perverse, flamboyant transgressions against society's norms for proof of this.

I actually am somewhat a visual artist. I have noticed a phenomenon going on in art communities at least what comes to illustrations of the Christian authors and their older classics.

I have seen many people taking a friendship of two characters of same sex from those stories, and turning it into something much more... let's say carnal. This is done a lot mainly by the millennial artists, rather than those, let's say... 30+, my age class. There's no way I would touch them in such a way.

So, they are perverting these friendships like they cannot remain as "just friends"... but I shouldn't exactly be surprised of this phenomenon. Love has many forms, but it's way too quickly equated with sex like it must happen. But love is actually much greater than sex.

A bit off topic maybe, just my observations about the insanity of this time.

OneChristianLight · Jul 7, 2016

FireDragon76 said:
There are some churches that accept gays. In many parts of the country it's not hard to find a church where gay people are welcomed.

In the public arena, we have to deal with each other according to discourse common to all men and women, not necessarily according to divine revelation. This goes back to Luther's doctrine of the Two Kingdoms. Christians opposed to gay marriage have done a poor job showing how opposing gay marriage is in the interests of individual liberty or the public good.

I agree that churches should welcome homosexuals, and indeed all sinners, into their congregations. Romans 5:6-8 says that Christ died for the ungodly and not the righteous. If churches shunned gays or any other type of sinner, that would being going against what the Bible teaches. Basically, churches should welcome homosexuals to hear the word of God, but not endorse their life-style.

However, we Christians still have an obligation to politely warn others for their sins (Galatians 6:1), but that doesn't mean we are supposed to shun people or hurt their feelings because of their offenses. In Mark 2:13-17, Jesus ate with sinners precisely to demonstrate that God wants sinners to repent and come to know him.

PuerAzaelis · Jul 7, 2016

OneChristianLight said:
... flamboyant transgressions against society's norms ...

Well thank goodness there isn't any of that sort of thing in heterosexual society.

Otherwise we'd have noone to throw that tricky first stone, you know?

graceandpeace · Jul 7, 2016

Anna the Seeker said:
I think I can see where the debate or conflict on gay marriage is coming from. It's a debate of which identity is more important - the identity of a group or identity of an individual.

If God thinks that man sleeping with a man is a sin, marriage is an union between a man and a woman, and people inside and outside of the church that disagree with it being a sin (and thus disagree with God), and those people want to change the church identity by changing human legistlation, things are bound to get turbulent. Even more so if it's presumed that the identity of the Christian church is shaped by God and not a man. Because to a Christian, human legistlation should not surpass the laws and views of God in importance.

Christianity is still a very visible religion, and somehow these people still want to change Christianity instead of building a Christianity derived religion or belief system of their own, with it's own name. And they still want to be married in the eyes of God, instead of settling with civil marriage, or whatever wedding can be arranged regardless of religion. Or simply skipping any ceremonies and choosing cohabitation.

So, they are seeking approval from someone who clearly does not grant it. And that's God, no less, but priests are still going to say He does.

Anyway, this topic is general Christian group identity vs. individual identity discussion. Gay marriage is just a good example to start with.

Some Christians are gay or transgender, so we have an overlap between two identities. I don't believe in forcing someone to choose between something inherent to who they are (being LGBT) & their religion, but some Christian groups insist on such a choice.

As far as the civil sphere is concerned, the trend is toward acceptance for LGBT persons. Churches will not be forced to change their practices, but some may opt to change as they study LGBT issues more or encounter gay families.

Ultimately, this is just a topic Christians don't agree on, & we are limited by the rules on discussing the matter in this forum. I'll just say that there are churches that are affirming of LGBT persons, & they have reasons for doing so. Anyone can use Google to find out why.

Anna the Seeker · Jul 7, 2016

OneChristianLight said:
Basically, churches should welcome homosexuals to hear the word of God, but not endorse their life-style.

This is how I also see it - at least, for me it falls into the category "what would Jesus do", as shown by His example.

Goodbook · Jul 7, 2016

I think some people want a form of godliness without actually partaking in His divine nature.

It may be just pride that makes someone think their sin identifies themselves as set apart. They are not willing to give it up perhaps? When you in bondage, for some people, its just easier to stay there. Thats why alcoholics for example, identify themselves as alcholics. But then, ok good they not in denial they have a problem anymore but then they glorify and try to justify themselves.

Thats why you get all these AA members who are not so anonymous.

Whereas Jesus way is to set people free...when you are free, you are free indeed.
Repentance is the narrow road and few find it.

OneChristianLight · Jul 7, 2016

PuerAzaelis said:
Well thank goodness there isn't any of that sort of thing in heterosexual society.

Otherwise we'd have noone to throw that tricky first stone, you know?

Your sarcasm toward my supposed "judgement" against homosexuals is unmerited. Read my previous post on this chat thread. In my second paragraph, I wrote that it isn't appropriate to shun or hurt the feelings of sinners, referring tacitly to gay people. I then brought up the fact that Jesus ate meals with sinners, saying it shows that God welcomes all sinners, including homosexuals, who wish to repent and know him.

All I did was call homosexuality a vice and explained my reasoning. I never implied that heterosexuals aren't prone to vices or sins, nor did I cast judgement on people who are inclined towards a specific sin.

Anna the Seeker · Jul 7, 2016

Goodbook said:
I think some people want a form of godliness without actually partaking in His divine nature.

If there's a way to partake His divine nature (and there is), how can you get a form of godliness by knowing what it is, and yet doing according to your own desires before His?

Sounds like reading the Bible blindfolded to me. You may imagine what reads there, and you may imagine it's something that pleases you, but that doesn't mean that one sees reality.

OneChristianLight · Jul 7, 2016

Anna the Seeker said:
If there's a way to partake His divine nature (and there is), how can you get a form of godliness by knowing what it is, and yet doing according to your own desires before His? Sounds like reading the Bible blindfolded to me.

A lot of Christians who aren't strong in faith have a tendency to pick and choose which teachings to follow and which teachings not to follow. Another name for it is cafeteria Christianity.

As Christians who seek godliness, we must conform to all teachings that are part of God's will. If a Christian picks and chooses which teaching to follow based on preference, he or she is making a mistake and needs to get right with God.

FireDragon76 · Jul 7, 2016

Do you honestly not pick and choose what teachings you follow? Have you sold all your earthly goods and given them to the poor? I for one know I don't follow the rules, so why demand other people do so as well?

"Ged right with God"... Christ has done that for me.. And he's done it for you, and for your gay neighbor.

OneChristianLight · Jul 7, 2016

FireDragon76 said:
Do you honestly not pick and choose what teachings you follow? Have you sold all your earthly goods and given them to the poor? I for one know I don't follow the rules [and commit sins], so why demand other people [not sin]?

"Ged right with God"... Christ has done that for me.. And he's done it for you, and for your gay neighbor.

You choose not to follow the rules and commit sins, but the Bible certainly doesn't tell Christians that it's okay to sin. Christ died for our sins on the cross, and it is a grave error to think we can take our savior's sacrifice for granted and persist in ungodliness. Jesus sacrificed himself so that we can be free from the bondage of sin; it was not to give us a pass to sin. If someone accepts Jesus as his savior but then goes on to steal, swindle, commit sodomy, and revel in other sins, God will surely judge him.

PuerAzaelis · Jul 7, 2016

OneChristianLight said:
If someone accepts Jesus as his savior but then goes on to steal, swindle, commit sodomy, and revel in other sins, God will surely judge him.

Well we can hope. Since hope is a theological virtue, I suppose. Apologies, by the way, for before. I guess I was projecting. You see, I have my own opinions as to whether [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] into fecal matter is gross. But unfortunately, as it happens, I'm in no position to judge - because I am the greatest fornicator of them all.

OneChristianLight · Jul 7, 2016

PuerAzaelis said:
Well we can hope. Since hope is a theological virtue, I suppose. Apologies, by the way, for before. I guess I was projecting. You see, I have my own opinions as to whether [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] into fecal matter is gross. But unfortunately, as it happens, I'm in no position to judge - because I am the greatest fornicator of them all.

It's understandable. Most Christians, including myself, seem to have made sexual indiscretions at one point in their lives, and some struggle with it every day. Augustine of Hippo was also guilty of past sexual immorality and had a reputation for it, but with God's counsel he was able to put it behind him and go on to become a great saint.

Goodbook · Jul 8, 2016

That you once were...fornicator, adulterer, murderer etc
But doesnt mean you stay that way, though your sins be scarlet, you will be washed white as snow.

I too find it odd that, some people just want to go back to the vomit. Maybe they used to it out of habit or they think the shame can never go away.
As far as I know, Jesus died for all the sins of mankind. And rose again, so anybody who says they believe yet continues to sin is taking Gods grace for granted and turning it into license to sin. And not even believing that his blood has paid for their sin.

Well if they continue to sin they will be judged if not perishing in this lifetime from the consequences of their sin. Which is horrible, because their sin affects everyone around them too and causes others to stumble.

Anna the Seeker · Jul 8, 2016

Goodbook said:
I too find it odd that, some people just want to go back to the vomit. Maybe they used to it out of habit or they think the shame can never go away.

Maybe they don't really believe that they can be washed as white as a snow. Maybe the talk in the media about homosexuality being in genetics and being born as one is something to reinforce that idea, though it has been proven wrong. Identical twins: one can be straight, one can be gay, so it's definitely not in the DNA. It does not help much either if a person is made to "decide" of they gender and sexuality as merely a child.

When they don't really believe that they can be washed off their sins, they try to find comfort in sin not being so much of a sin after all, and try to make it look like to everyone like it's okay. The devil, also known as the accuser, first accuses and then acts like a bad parent and says the child that he may have it after all. As least God as a Father has a clear line and holds on to it, so the child will not grow confused for the rest of his life.

I actually do not need the Bible to convince me that homosexuality is against the nature. A quick look in our anatomy is quite enough. Someone said "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] in the fecal matter"... that's the definition of sodomy. When I look at the idea, there's nothing pretty about it in my eyes.

What comes to hermaphroditism, I have actually come across quite an interesting research. Where there's more pollution it's more bound to happen. At least the fish in the waters where the pollution has been plenty have been either made infertile, or the males have started to produce eggs.

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