What is salvation?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/license_to_sin.htm
"No Christian has a license to sin in the Lord's eyes concerning practical righteousness as His children; but we DO HAVE A LICENSE TO SIN when it comes to salvation, because we are saved by the imputed righteousness of God, and it has absolutely nothing to do with how we live."

Click to expand...

You would be right if you said that every teacher of the eternal security of the believer would agree with the above statement as far as it is meant to teach.

But taking a statement out of context can become a pretext for misrepresenting what the writer said.

Reading through the article from which you cut the above quote - I note the context in which it was said. You did not and that makes all the difference.

The writer clearly says things like the following from the article:
"I DON'T AGREE WITH ANTINOMIANISM. It is a false doctrine! I DO believe that Christians are under obligation from God to obey His laws and ethics, BUT NOT AS PART OF THE PLAN OF SALVATION!!! That's all I'm teaching! Romans 3:31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? God Forbid: Yea, We Establish the Law.” Every born-again believer is obligated to obey and fulfill the law, not to be saved, but because WE ARE saved.

Some people have wrongly criticized me for saying that Christians have a license to sin. They have deliberately taken my words out of context. Christians only have a “license to sin” in the sense that they have eternal security. If you believe otherwise, then you are saying that Christians can lose their salvation. I don't even like the term “license to sin,” because NO ONE has God's permission or blessing to commit sin. NO ONE!!! I only say that “Christians have a license to sin,” as a counter to the common saying which says, “Just because you're saved doesn't give you a license to sin” (as an attempt to teach Lordship Salvation). That is simply not true. You can live in sin if you want, but there are always consequences (Hebrews 12:6-8). I am not saying that it is acceptable to live in sin, God forbid. "

It is quite common on these forums for people to accuse others of teaching something that they know darn good and well that they do not teach and it is being done here again by you.

Misrepresenting others is the same thing as lying in the Lord's eyes.

As one of your statements here rightly points out - you'd never get away with that king of sin if you were walking with the Lord as one of His disciples.

He'd call you on it in a heartbeat. So am I.

I'd advise you to repent of this kind of thing. Your salvation doesn't depend on your repenting. But you will suffer loss if you do not.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

I don't keep a list... but it has been readily apparent and well known, repeatedly spoken or posted or reported , for decades or longer, very often.(like "common knowledge" and normally expected)

Click to expand...

I'm quite sure that you have been corrected in on where you are going wrong many, many times and you simply will not keep what the people are saying in context.

EmSw said:

We have a OSAS person on this forum who would agree with that quote.

Click to expand...

With the above caveat - count me with that person.

Marvin Knox said:

I'm quite sure that you have been corrected in on where you are going wrong many, many times and you simply will not keep what the people are saying in context.

Click to expand...

This is a gross misrepresentaton and sin on your part.
(unless bearing false witness isn't a sin in your bible).
You copied from the link I found this>
"Christians only have a “license to sin” in the sense that they have eternal security. If you believe otherwise, then you are saying that Christians can lose their salvation."
which says , if you are *s*s, you ADMIT you have a "license to sin" !!!
Like
diplomatic immunity - "license to drive through red lights" with no penalty or with penalty DOESn'T matter - it is still breaking the law against driving through red lights ....
Your own words, and many others *s*s, say you can sin. "license to sin" ...
simple,
that is the point.
And you don't even deny it, in context of your own, or out of context, both!

As if one error isn't enough, in the content of post and websites of the proponents of *s*s ,
Compare the book of 1st John(and Jesus Instructions in the Gospels where Jesus tells people that they do(they live) as their father does) with the following quote repeated from above >>
"No Christian has a license to sin in the Lord's eyes concerning practical righteousness as His children; but we DO HAVE A LICENSE TO SIN when it comes to salvation, because we are saved by the imputed righteousness of God, and it has absolutely nothing to do with how we live."

yeshuaslavejeff said:

As if one error isn't enough, in the content of post and websites of the proponents of *s*s ,
Compare the book of 1st John(and Jesus Instructions in the Gospels where Jesus tells people that they do(they live) as their father does) with the following quote repeated from above >>
"No Christian has a license to sin in the Lord's eyes concerning practical righteousness as His children; but we DO HAVE A LICENSE TO SIN when it comes to salvation, because we are saved by the imputed righteousness of God, and it has absolutely nothing to do with how we live."

Click to expand...

Getting the new spirit, the new heart, being made alive does not mean the believer may or can go to the second death in the lake of fire.
since they then have God's Spirit indwelling them,

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

A person born of God overcomes the world by their faith, of course there are hypocrites and fraudsters in the church, but who are you to judge their final destiny today? They may repent and finally come to their senses if God grants them repentance to the faith.

1 John 5New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

There will be an inner convicting Spirit of God indwelling all His children and God disciplines everyone He receives, else you would not have God as your heavenly father. God ONLY chastens those He loves, and those He loves He receives as sons. In fact the Holy Spirit of God scourges every son He receives, He does that because He loves His children and will not allow them to perish in Hell. Also review the parable of the tares and the wheat.

Hebrews 12
The Discipline of God
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

As if one error isn't enough, in the content of post and websites of the proponents of *s*s ,
Compare the book of 1st John(and Jesus Instructions in the Gospels where Jesus tells people that they do(they live) as their father does) with the following quote repeated from above >>
"No Christian has a license to sin in the Lord's eyes concerning practical righteousness as His children; but we DO HAVE A LICENSE TO SIN when it comes to salvation, because we are saved by the imputed righteousness of God, and it has absolutely nothing to do with how we live."

Click to expand...

I found this interesting bit of information from 2 Peter 2. And I see it happening right before our eyes. This chapter is speaking of false prophets. Here is how they operate among God's people -

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

So now we will see how they exploit God's people.

10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

It's no secret, those who tell others they can live in sin and still be saved, are guilty of living in sin themselves. Walking according to the flesh is of no matter to them. When authority says to sin no more, flee sin, cast away iniquity, and lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, they despise these warnings and commands of authority.

Peter says they are presumptuous and self-willed. A presumptuous man is one who is a daring (audacious) man. An audacious man is one who is extremely bold, recklessly brave, and fearless. These men have no fear of God, thinking, saying, and doing as they please (self-willed). It is extremely bold to tell others they can live in sin and still be saved.

Then Peter tells us more about them.

13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you,
14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.
15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.

Yes, Peter even speaks of their wages, or rewards, they are so fond of saying. Yet, it is not rewards of life, but rewards of unrighteousness. Peter says they have forsaken the right way. Ever wonder what the right way is? It is the way of the Lord; He tells us how to live in this life. These false prophets tell others they do not have to live the right way to be saved.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Peter now tells us they speak great swelling words of emptiness. Emptiness means void of truth, depraved, and perverse. Telling someone they can live in sin and still be saved is living a depraved and perverse life. This is alluring those who have escaped from those who live in error.

Now we have the crux of the matter in verse 19. These false prophets promise believers liberty. Pay attention to what liberty means. Strong's gives us the following meaning:

1. liberty to do or to omit things having no relationship to salvation
2. fancied liberty
   1 license, the liberty to do as one pleases

What a revelation! These false prophets promise believers they have liberty to do as they please and it has no relationship to salvation. They promise believers they have license, or liberty to do as one pleases without affecting their salvation. We see this very promise promoted on this forum. Beware!

Peter then says, 'for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage'. If you are overcome by these false prophets, it is by these false prophets you are brought into bondage. Folks, this is serious stuff; please carefully consider the words of Peter.

Peter gives these dire words to these false prophets, 'for it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.'

It would have been better for these false prophets to not have known the way of righteousness (right way of living) than to have known it and turn from the holy commandment. I plead with you, live according to the holy commandments of God. Jesus said to the lawyer who asked how to inherit eternal life, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live” (Luke 10:28). Do not be deceived by the words of those who promise liberty to do as you please and still be saved.

Marvin Knox said:

"I DON'T AGREE WITH ANTINOMIANISM. It is a false doctrine! I DO believe that Christians are under obligation from God to obey His laws and ethics, BUT NOT AS PART OF THE PLAN OF SALVATION!!! That's all I'm teaching! Romans 3:31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? God Forbid: Yea, We Establish the Law.” Every born-again believer is obligated to obey and fulfill the law, not to be saved, but because WE ARE saved.

Some people have wrongly criticized me for saying that Christians have a license to sin. They have deliberately taken my words out of context. Christians only have a “license to sin” in the sense that they have eternal security. If you believe otherwise, then you are saying that Christians can lose their salvation. I don't even like the term “license to sin,” because NO ONE has God's permission or blessing to commit sin. NO ONE!!! I only say that “Christians have a license to sin,” as a counter to the common saying which says, “Just because you're saved doesn't give you a license to sin” (as an attempt to teach Lordship Salvation). That is simply not true. You can live in sin if you want, but there are always consequences (Hebrews 12:6-8). I am not saying that it is acceptable to live in sin, God forbid. "

Click to expand...

Read the above quote completely.

I second what the man said and I'll end this with that idea.

The "license to sin" statement, as both he and I clearly indicate, is a red herring.

Saying that sinning does not cause one to lose their salvation in the basic sense is not the same as saying that sin does not matter.

You can use that term and cause others to comment on that term all you want.

The fact is that to say that people saying that they believe in the eternal security of true believers is to say that people have a license to sin- is the same as lying.

That is because the OSAS proponents have corrected that old red herring again and again - just as was done in the article supplied here by an opponent himself.

To use that term concerning belief in eternal security when you know you are doing wrong (because it has been corrected) is the same as "lying" in the sight of God.

Once context has been has been provided (either by that author or by me for instance) - to continue to exclude that context in order to misrepresent others beliefs is the same as lying in my view.

If you come back on this post with more of the same, you are purposefully lying about other believers.

I won't continue to dialog with liars.

It's a shame that it always seems to come down to this same kind of "sin" by opponents when trying to discuss issues from opposing viewpoints in this forum.

It happens when discussing predestination, election and a number of other areas of disagreement as well.

I've never had trouble defending my beliefs with someone who disagrees. But I'm pretty much sick of this kind of duplicity.

It's not enough just to lay out your position for what it's worth. People just seem to have to misrepresent the other side as well.

That's sin - plain and simple.

1 John 3, the meaning is lost to some posters.

Sin and the Child of God
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

A bold statement in the scripture and Apostle John teaches, those in Christ cannot sin

The relevant understanding is the new creation in Christ, that new spirit formed on the inside, does not sin, can not sin since it is born of God.
IF THIS IS TRUE, then if your born of God, you can not loose your salvation. However there are many false teachers presenting on this forum and all over the world teaching the opposite. And they do not believe verse 9.

They do reject this truth here in 1 john 3 and also many other scriptures, such as Ephesians 4, the teaching of the old man of the flesh and the new man in Christ. They emphasize that a bad sin means your rejected by God and you must do many good works for God to regard you WORTHY by your own works to enter heaven.

The New Man
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

I consider anyone who does not agree with scripture as I have shown here to have no knowledge of God and Christ.
And at the worst I consider them enemies of the grace of God in Christ and have the influence of Satan at work in them.
And they will not repent of their false teaching unless God throws them on a bed of sickness, for those who suffer in the flesh have ceased from sin. Maybe that is why some are sick and weak among you and some have died, as Paul taught about the Corinthian church. God will judge His people and God will prevail. Scripture can not be broken.

That which is 'born of God' that Apostle John here is teaching about is not the old man of the flesh and the mind.
It is the new spirit God creates inside of you which is born of God and does not, indeed can not sin, since it is born of God.
And all those so 'born of God' overcome the world. I john 5

That new spirit STILL EXISTS alongside the old man of the flesh. The redemption process begins by becoming a new creation in Christ.
At the end our bodies will be transformed to be like His own glorious body in the age of the resurrection according to the power by which HE is ABLE to subdue ALL THINGS to Himself, that means according to HIS will.

Phillipians 3, contrasts those who walk according to the ways of the world, who do not know Christ, and Christ also knows them not, versus those who are saved who look forward with eager longing for the appearance of our God and savior Jesus Christ.

Our Citizenship in Heaven
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end isdestruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.

20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

sdowney717 said:

That which is 'born of God' that Apostle John here is teaching about is not the old man of the flesh and the mind.
It is the new spirit God creates inside of you which is born of God and does not, indeed can not sin, since it is born of God.
And all those so 'born of God' overcome the world. I john 5

That new spirit STILL EXISTS alongside the old man of the flesh. The redemption process begins by becoming a new creation in Christ.
At the end our bodies will be transformed to be like His own glorious body in the age of the resurrection according to the power by which HE is ABLE to subdue ALL THINGS to Himself, that means according to HIS will.

Phillipians 3, contrasts those who walk according to the ways of the world, who do not know Christ, and Christ also knows them not, versus those who are saved who look forward with eager longing for the appearance of our God and savior Jesus Christ.

Our Citizenship in Heaven
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end isdestruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.

20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

Click to expand...

To understand the idea of the two natures properly and incorporate it into ones theolofy requires a "systematic" approach to studying scripture.

There is a clear contrast between the two natures that must be considered in these things.

The new man is seated eternally with Christ in glory and will never not be in that position - being the bride of Christ, one flesh with Him and part of His body.

The old man, on the other hand, has a position that is pretty much the opposite of the new man.

It's a lot to wrestle with. We see through the glass darkly for sure.

Some people just refuse to wrestle with these paradoxes found in scripture at all. In fact it has been said here that they have no need at all for so called "systematic" theology and that they only need to quote particular scriptures to show properly what the scriptures teach.

As a result - it's a lot like the debate about the doctrines of grace in general. People (from both sides sometimes) fall into a particular theological ditch and miss the narrow road of truth.

In the case of this debate concerning OSAS - we must understand that we are eternally forgiven, saved and will never come into condemnation and also that sins will result in eternal destruction as well.

That's a contradiction for those from the other side. It's merely a paradox for us.

Keeping an open mind and accepting all that the scriptures teach while studying them systematically results in truth. Choosing which scripture you will accept ends up in the ditch and results in false teaching and the need to misrepresent the other side's beliefs as we see happening here.

Marvin Knox said:

To understand the idea of the two natures properly and incorporate it into ones theolofy requires a "systematic" approach to studying scripture.

Click to expand...

Here is a very important aspect of systematic theology - 'Using biblical texts, it attempts to compare and relate all of scripture and create a systematized statement on what the whole Bible says about particular issues'. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_theology)

So we see systematic theology is man's attempt to create a systematized statement. This must be kept in mind when hearing any systematized statement. Unless man can show he is perfect in all his ways, caution must be used when confronted with systematic theology.

It's also been shown that any man who puts his trust in systematic theology is hesitant to consider, and sometimes hostile to, other methods of studying scripture.

My preferred method of studying scripture is waitamatic theology, that is, waiting upon the Lord to reveal the things He knows I am ready to understand. Although this method may take months or years, it is well worth the wait. In this way, it is all God's method and has very little chance of being wrong, unless I show impatience and want the answers now.

Marvin Knox said:

There is a clear contrast between the two natures that must be considered in these things.

Click to expand...

This contrast is shown throughout the whole of scripture and every society of mankind; this is not a new concept to Christianity. As far as I know, every religion considers this dilemma very important to its teachings. Every man, woman, and child must choose between good and evil in their life.

Marvin Knox said:

The new man is seated eternally with Christ in glory and will never not be in that position - being the bride of Christ, one flesh with Him and part of His body.

Click to expand...

Before we come to such a conclusion, we need to wait upon the Lord and study more about both natures.

Marvin Knox said:

The old man, on the other hand, has a position that is pretty much the opposite of the new man.

Click to expand...

That's pretty much known, that good and evil are total opposites.

Marvin Knox said:

It's a lot to wrestle with. We see through the glass darkly for sure.

Click to expand...

No need to wrestle with it; we have answers in scripture. No man should ever wrestle with scripture; if you don't know, you don't know. There is no condemnation for not understanding scripture.

Marvin Knox said:

Some people just refuse to wrestle with these paradoxes found in scripture at all. In fact it has been said here that they have no need at all for so called "systematic" theology and that they only need to quote particular scriptures to show properly what the scriptures teach.

Click to expand...

I for one refuse to wrestle with scripture; wrestle with scripture and you will lose.

I prefer to call paradoxes appearances. I believe I can give a natural occurrence in nature to help understand what appearances are. In the spring, summer, and fall, we see trees with leaves, flowers, and fruit. From these, we know the trees are alive. However, in the winter we see no leaves, flowers, nor fruit. The trees look barren and dead. However, this is just an appearance of death, the trees are very much alive though it appears otherwise.

And no, I do not need systematic theology to explain this appearance of death.

Marvin Knox said:

As a result - it's a lot like the debate about the doctrines of grace in general. People (from both sides sometimes) fall into a particular theological ditch and miss the narrow road of truth.

Click to expand...

Kind of like those who do not strive to enter the narrow gate. They fall into a ditch on the narrow road and fail to enter the narrow gate, wherein resides eternal life.

Marvin Knox said:

In the case of this debate concerning OSAS - we must understand that we are eternally forgiven, saved and will never come into condemnation and also that sins will result in eternal destruction as well.

That's a contradiction for those from the other side. It's merely a paradox for us.

Click to expand...

It's not only a contradiction, it's impossible for this to be true in any way. Calling it a paradox does not solve the dilemma, though some think just speaking words can justify their position.

Marvin Knox said:

Keeping an open mind and accepting all that the scriptures teach while studying them systematically results in truth. Choosing which scripture you will accept ends up in the ditch and results in false teaching and the need to misrepresent the other side's beliefs as we see happening here.

Click to expand...

Systematic theology is not truth; there is only one source of truth. No need to choose which scripture to believe; wait upon the Lord and choose it all. When the Lord opens our understanding, I can guarantee you will not teach falsely, though others will see it that way. Here again, you have a choice to make - man's understanding through systematic theology, or God's steadfast truth through waitamatic theology. Those who wait will not be disappointed.

Psalm 27:14
Wait on the Lord; be of good courage, and He shall strengthen your heart; wait, I say, on the Lord!

Psalm 33:20
Our soul waits for the Lord; He is our help and our shield.

Psalm 37:7
Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him; do not fret because of him who prospers in his way, because of the man who brings wicked schemes to pass.

Psalm 37:9
For evildoers shall be cut off; but those who wait on the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

Psalm 37:34
Wait on the Lord, and keep His way, and He shall exalt you to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off, you shall see it.

Psalm 40:1
I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry.

Isaiah 40:31
But those who wait on the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint.

EmSw said:

............The trees look barren and dead. However, this is just an appearance of death, the trees are very much alive though it appears otherwise.............

Click to expand...

Exactly!

So it is with those who are new creations and alive in Christ.

They may wrestle with sin for quite some time in life and appear to have departed from the faith and become lost.

But, when the final judgement comes, we will find that they are still alive in Christ through grace.

That is the promise of God for the elect in Christ.

I intend this to be my last post to you on this thread.

After reading through your post entirely - the cheese seems to have slid off the cracker again.

Marvin Knox said:

Exactly!

So it is with those who are new creations and alive in Christ.

They may wrestle with sin for quite some time in life and appear to have departed from the faith and become lost.

But, when the final judgement comes, we will find that they are still alive in Christ through grace.

That is the promise of God for the elect in Christ.

I intend this to be my last post to you on this thread.

After reading through your post entirely - the cheese seems to have slid off the cracker again.

Click to expand...

Marvin, Marvin, Marvin! Are you still teaching that people have the liberty to live in sin, and has no bearing on their salvation? I thought maybe Peter's warning would open your eyes; it has opened mine.

Sorry Marvin, those who live in sin is no appearance. It's a sure fact, they are not in Christ. We are to put off the old man, renew our minds, and then put on the new man. Surely you know this as the whole counsel of God. Surely you know those who live according to the old man are destined to eternal death. Maybe you don't, I have no idea.

Anyway, you should read and understand Ephesians 5 -
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

How can you tell others they can live in sin and not believe this? Why does the wrath of God come upon people? It is because they are fornicators, unclean, covetous, and idolaters, which you say they can live this way and be saved. I hope you aren't trying to deceive us with empty words. God's wrath comes upon these people, that is, sons of disobedience. And you say people can be partakers with them and still be saved.

Why is it you want to leave when challenged? Do you run every time you are challenged? You sir, are a true Calvinist.

BTW, the cheese is the old man, and I am proud to say it has slid off my cracker.

Kersh said:

The Bible talks about salvation, justification, adoption, heirship, redemption, sanctification, glorification, among other terms.

Click to expand...

Salvation covers all of this and then some. The word salvation means *deliverance*, and there are many deliverances involved. At the same time salvation means a new creature in Christ, which includes sonship and heirship (adoption). So salvation is MULTI-FACETED.

1. Deliverance from Hell (the Lake of Fire) and the second death
2. Deliverance from the penalties for sin (justification and redemption)
3. Deliverance from the pollution of sin (washing with the blood)
4. Deliverance from the guilt of sin (forgiveness and remission of sins)
5. Deliverance from the power of sin (regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, sanctification)
6. Deliverance from the presence of sin (perfection and glorification).

The term adoption as used in Scripture is not the same as in common usage. Since believers are actual children of God, adoption means all the privileges of an heir granted to each one.

Kersh said:

The Bible talks about salvation, justification, adoption, heirship, redemption, sanctification, glorification, among other terms.

What is the relationship between these concepts? Are they different ways of describing the same thing? Is salvation a general term that is summed up by two or more of the other terms?

I ask these questions because I feel like so much of the discussion of soteriology is about OSAS or eternal security vs. conditional security. But, I wonder if these terms have any meaning if we don't first identify what it means to be "saved". For example, it seems that the adoption, heirship, and redemption are all treated as part and parcel of justification. And, some would say that these are all aspects of salvation. But, what if a person who has been justified never becomes sanctified? Or is the fact that that person never becomes sanctified proof that he or she never was justified? Or are justification and sanctification two sides of the same coin? I guess I wonder if the whole debate about eternal security really comes down to how well established our understanding of all of these topics is.

Click to expand...

Salvation, redemption, forgiveness, sanctification, and justification all have past, present, and future aspects. For example, Ephesians 2:5 says we have been saved, Philippians 2:12 talks about working out our salvation, and Romans 5:9-10 talks about when we will be saved. God's law was given to give us knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), without it we wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), sin is defined as the transgression of law (1 John 3:4), and the law was added because of transgression (Galatians 3:19), and our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), so our salvation is from lawlessness for the purpose obedience to the law. Essentially, we have been saved by grace through faith from the penalty of our lawlessness by Messiah redeeming us, we are being saved by grace through faith from sinning through being trained to obey God's law and to renounce lawlessness, and we will be saved by grace through faith from God's wrath on the day of the Lord. Everything God's grace brings in these verses is part of what our salvation looks like:

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

The Bible likewise talks about have been sanctified (1 Corinthians 6:11, Hebrews 10:10), about God sanctifying us or about being sanctified (1 Thessalonians 4:1-3, Hebrews 10:14), and we know that we will be sanctified when we are made perfect on the day of the Lord (Philippians 1:6). Sanctification is the ongoing process being set apart for God, about being trained to be godly in our conduct and zealous for doing good works, and about when he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it and we are made to be sinless like Christ in his perfect obedience to God's law. We can see that Abraham was justified when he left the land of his forefathers (Hebrews 11:8), when he believed God (Genesis 15:6), and when he offered Isaac (James 2:21-23), so justification is not a static point either, but about whenever we act in faith in the promise of a redeemer from lawlessness and thereby have right standing with God. It is the children of God who practice righteousness in accordance with God's law and who refrain from practicing lawlessness (1 John 3:4-10).

bling said:

I think you ask a good question, but these words can have different meanings depending on the context:

Salvation: In the Old Testament when the Jews talked about “salvation” it often referred to the salvation of the nation of Israel from its surrounding enemies, and not the salvation of the individual.

Salvation in the New Testament seems to have to do with the redemption of the individual; this means the child of God within every nonbeliever has been set free to go to the father. It has to do with the ransom being paid and the payment being accepted by the kidnapper. This also brings into question “forgiveness” of sins and when that takes place and if you are forgive of your sins you are redeemed and saved?

Click to expand...

The promise of a redeemer from our sins is of central importance in the the OT and the NT, so the OT is not any less about the redemption of the individual than the NT. Forgiveness has past present, and future aspects. We have the forgiveness of our sins and have been forgiven (Ephesians 1:7, Ephesians 4:2), forgiveness is something we need to continue to acquire (Matthew 6:12, 1 John 1:9), and we will not be forgiven if we do not forgive others (Matthew 6:14). God will also declare us to be forgiven on the day of the Lord (2 Timothy 1:18)

Everyone needs to keep recalling to themselves how the New Covenant now works compared to the Old as described in Hebrews 8.
Scripture can not be broken, Many works centered people add on to what God has done for us to describe the requirements of salvation.
Christ told us it is all about what you believe about Him and God. Your works do not save you, neither do they maintain your salvation.
Scripture warns us there are false brethren in churches meaning noticeably 'christian' who are hypocrites and liars, dogs and evil workers who turn the grace of God into an excuse for sinning who are not saved, they do not bare any good fruit. People confuse good fruit with good works. The good fruit you bear is what is spoken from the new spirit heart God has created on the inside. We can know those who are bad fruit or good fruit bearers by what they say, Prophets speak to people.
People either are bearing good fruit and are saved from the fire, or they are bearing bad fruit and are fit only for the fire, there is no half and half mixing of bad and good fruit. Fruit is what you say to other people and to God and Christ, everything thing you say is written in His books.
Christ tells us this amazing fact as truth.

Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Matthew 12
A Tree Known by Its Fruit
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

You are known by your fruit showing to whom, what kingdom you belong.
A person speaks from the heart, that is their fruit. Good fruit is spoken out from a good heart. One that is born of God will bear good fruit.
We are His workmanship, so if that is true that you are born of God, then you will bear good fruit by your new nature in Christ being born of God.
And all that you will bear to God is good fruit. indeed Christ tells us you can NOT bear bad fruit. and be a saved person, it goes with the nature though, the new creation in Christ will bear God good fruit. God has decreed this by His authority.

The NEW COVENANT tells us of the authority of God over all people. John 17.

1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

God puts HIS LAWS into our minds and writes them upon our hearts and He WILL be our God and We WILL be HIS people.

God writes HIS LAWS on newly hewn freshly prepared stones in the Old Covenant with Moses up on the mountain.
God today writes His LAWS on newly created spirits, those born of God, written on the new heart that He gives. So they can not bear bad fruit.

Hebrews 8

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Kersh said:

The only concern that I have is in your understanding of the doctrine of adoption.

Click to expand...

The oldest son was generally considered the heir of a king. But with God's children, all are heirs.

Kersh said:

I agree for the most part, I think. The only concern that I have is in your understanding of the doctrine of adoption. I think adoption goes beyond just being an heir. I actually do think that the way the term is used in common usage is appropriate to descripe the doctrine of adoption. Through God's grace and election (which we can argue about what that term means another day), God chooses us to be his sons (or in a more modern context, sons and daughters), not just heirs, but as loved children who live in the care and nurture of our father and whose conduct in this world reflects upon the name of our father as would any biological child.

Click to expand...

Adoption doesn't ignore that sin can still separate a believer from God. If a person does not repent of their grevious sins towards God like lying, lusting, and hating others (despite the conviction of the Spirit for them to repent), then they are actively rebelling against God.

For obviously if a father had a loyal son who one day turned and just murdered a whole bunch of people and was looking to kill even his own father and the entire family, surely they are no longer an adopted son.


...