DNA Evidence for the Bible

Armoured · Jun 30, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
Your cartoon is very annoying, I think I am going to put you on ignore so I do not have to look at it anymore.

Best way to deal with people posting inconvenient facts

Armoured · Jun 30, 2016

Jimmy D said:
I'm not sure you've thought this through at all, doesn't it strike you as odd that the ancient mesopotamians were polytheists? When God was going about his business of creation it seems they didn't notice until the bronze age.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that the Global Flood picked Noah and Co. up and put them back down in the same geographic area?

Loudmouth · Jun 30, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
Adam lived 6,000 years ago in the Garden in Eden. What is today called ancient Mesopotamia.

Where is the evidence for this claim?

"6000 years ago civilization emerged in Mesopotamia - the Ancient Greek name meaning the land "between the rivers" is used today to describe the valley between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers which nurtured the first urban civilization, the Sumerians. It is located in modern Iraq and is the eastern end of an area of land called the "fertile crescent" a land of abundance in ancient times. The two rivers deposited fertile silt on the land when they overflowed their banks."

"The abundance of food grown in the rich mud in the fertile crescent made it possible for large numbers of people to live together in cities. Population growth and a surplus of food led to specialization of labor and the leisure time necessary for civilization. When everyone did not have to farm people began to be artisans and craftsmen. The products created by these specialists led to trade and a merchant class. Some specialists were religious and a class of priests emerged."

http://www.historywiz.com/exhibits/emergenceofciv.html

Where is the evidence that a man named Adam had anything to do with this?

Loudmouth · Jun 30, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
Just run a google search using the key words. Furtile Crescent, Cradle of Civilization, 4,000 bc. 6,000 years ago.

None of it turns up evidence that a man named Adam as described in the Bible ever existed.

So I am to assume you have no scientific evidence?

joshua 1 9 · Jun 30, 2016

Loudmouth said:
Where is the evidence that a man named Adam had anything to do with this?

If you can falsify Bishop Usshers book then produce your peer reviewers and falsify it.

Stephen Jay Gould, who, while totally disagreeing with Ussher's chronology, nevertheless wrote:[11]

"I shall be defending Ussher's chronology as an honorable effort for its time and arguing that our usual ridicule only records a lamentable small-mindedness based on mistaken use of present criteria to judge a distant and different past

Ussher represented the best of scholarship in his time. He was part of a substantial research tradition, a large community of intellectuals working toward a common goal under an accepted methodology…"

Need I remind you that Bishop Ussher establishes Adam as having lived 6,000 years ago. According to Bishop Ussher: "Of the many historians, who lived before Julius Caesar, the passing of time leaves only four of note: Herodotus, Thucidides, Xenophon and Polibius. The last one is poor and inaccurate in many places. These I esteemed the most authentic for their antiquity. I used them to correct the frequent errors in chronology of Diodorus Siculus."

I do not have time to condense this down and I doubt if your interested anyways. I assume what you are looking for is a point of contact. One point of contact we see is that Adam had a son named Cain. Cain's son Enoch built a city. Also we see Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. (Gen 5:22) When you start getting into metal: Copper-Tin = Bronze & Iron then you have dates you can work with from Science and Archeology. Eventually your going to come up with enough points of contact that you will see how accurate and dependable the Bible is when properly understood. Still we are dealing with a document that is 3500 years old. So some effort is going to need to go into understanding the Bible and the lesson there for our day and our generation. We know that it maybe a good idea to question our fathers and grandfathers understanding of the Bible because they did not have as much knowledge in Science as we have today.

To get back to your question: Adam does not have a name. He gave Eve her name. Genesis 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living". What we are looking at is the founder effect.

Adam Names the Animals
…19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field,

Science Eve (Mitochondrial Eve) is the Matriarch of all people. Bible Eve is the Matriarch of the Hebrew people. The Bible tends to follow the genealogy of Adam (Y-Chromosome) It is ONLY very recently that we learn about MtDNA and now we know we can follow the genealogy of Eve also. The Bible tells us that Adam begat sons and daughters.

5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city,

We see that Cain was the first to build a city. I do not think that Cain married his sister. I think that he got a wife from the non Hebrew people that lived in the Area. Genesis 4:16 "And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden". We see some interesting things in this chapter: Enoch (Cains son) built a city. Then we see Cains descendant: Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. (Gen 5:22). You know that bronze is a mixture of tin and copper.

"No one knows exactly where or how bronze was first discovered. By around 3500 BC, farm tools and weapons are being made of this new metal in these areas. Bronze Age begins in Bohemia (3500 BC to 3001 BC). Bronze is being used in the Mediterranean and Eastern European areas." (Wiki)

We talk about Iron, Bronze, Plows & Cities in the Bible and in the story of Adam and Eve and Cain. So this is a part of the puzzle that can help us to see the dates the Bishop Ussher comes up with. If you can falsify Bishop Usshers book, then by all means show me what you have to falsify his book and his results. Produce your experts and lets peer review the good Bishop Usshers book and show me where where there are discrepancies.

Genesis 4:18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.

Genesis 4:19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one [was] Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

Genesis 4:20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and [of such as have] cattle.

Genesis 4:21 And his brother's name [was] Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

Genesis 4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain [was] Naamah.

Jimmy D · Jul 1, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
If you can falsify Bishop Usshers book then produce your peer reviewers and falsify it.

Stephen Jay Gould, who, while totally disagreeing with Ussher's chronology, nevertheless wrote:[11]

"I shall be defending Ussher's chronology as an honorable effort for its time and arguing that our usual ridicule only records a lamentable small-mindedness based on mistaken use of present criteria to judge a distant and different past

Ussher represented the best of scholarship in his time. He was part of a substantial research tradition, a large community of intellectuals working toward a common goal under an accepted methodology…"

It never ceases to amaze me how you can miss the point of things, even in your own posts.

Your Gould quote is not saying the Ussher was correct or accurate in his writings, just that we should respect his scholarly efforts.

I notice you avoided my question as well..... Why were the ancient mesopotamians were polytheists? When God was going about his business of creation, making the garden of Eden, creating man etc, it seems they didn't notice until the bronze age.

Loudmouth · Jul 1, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
If you can falsify Bishop Usshers book then produce your peer reviewers and falsify it.

I don't have to falsify it. You have to support it. If you have no evidence that supports Ussher's book, then there is nothing to falsify.

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."--Christopher Hitchens

Need I remind you that Bishop Ussher establishes Adam as having lived 6,000 years ago.

Claims made in the Bible establish nothing. They are just claims. You told us that there is scientific evidence supporting these claims. Where is it?

joshua 1 9 · Jul 1, 2016

Loudmouth said:
I don't have to falsify it. You have to support it.

Really is that how peer review works? Perhaps you can explain that whole process to me. I though peer review was so other people could test your results to see if they get the same results that you do.

Jimmy D · Jul 1, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
Really is that how peer review works? Perhaps you can explain that whole process to me. I though peer review was so other people could test your results to see if they get the same results that you do.

Maybe I missed something but why do you want Loudmouth to review Ussher's book?

joshua 1 9 · Jul 1, 2016

Loudmouth said:
You told us that there is scientific evidence supporting these claims. Where is it?

I already showed that evidence to you. Let me see if I can get you to understand this. Do you know what FIRST means? Adam was the FIRST, Adam was the Beginning. That is why I used the word FOUNDER effect because I think this is a term that you may understand and know the meaning of.

Now I understand we are going to have an issue with just WHAT Adam was the beginning of. Also you have an issue with IF Adam was a real person or fiction or archetype. This is why I say IF you do not understand Adam THEN you do not understand Evolution. Because understanding founder effect is a part of understanding Evolution. So if you do not understand Adam then you do not understand founder effect.

Actually I was reading the Bible the other day and looking at the story purely as a Archetype and not an actual person. You could almost interpret the story that way. Because TIME itself is not really directly a part of Adam and Eve's story. Time does not become a consideration until you look at the story of their descendants like Noah, Abraham, Moses, David. That is when time begins to be a consideration. Adam is a timeless story. As a shadow and type you have to look at what He represents.

Now I know it is difficult for you to wrap your mind around the concept that the story of one man can reflect and tell the story of all of mankind. Esp sense your Y Chromosome Adam is fluid. He can change and even if he was a real person today then tomorrow another person may become the new Y Chromosome Adam. So I can see how this could be a problem for you to accept the Genealogies that we find in our Bible. Because the Holocaust should have been anough to shift the Hebrew Y Chromosome J1 M267 haplogroup Founder Adam to a different person.

Of course you can try to argue that there is no beginning and there is no end. Good luck with that one.

Warden_of_the_Storm · Jul 1, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
Really is that how peer review works? Perhaps you can explain that whole process to me. I though peer review was so other people could test your results to see if they get the same results that you do.

It's not peer-review. It's asking you to support your claims with actual evidence.

joshua 1 9 · Jul 1, 2016

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
It's not peer-review. It's asking you to support your claims with actual evidence.

Can you answer the question or not?

Warden_of_the_Storm · Jul 1, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
Can you answer the question or not?

But you weren't asked about peer review. You were asked to supply evidence for your claim that 6,000 years ago, there existed a man called Adam and that he lived in the Garden of Eden, which you claimed was in Mesopotamia.
It was YOU who then went on an off-topic tangent about Bishop Ussher and peer review, while completely ignoring the question you had been asked.

joshua 1 9 · Jul 1, 2016

Jimmy D said:
Maybe I missed something but why do you want Loudmouth to review Ussher's book?

Loudmouth wants EVIDENCE that Adam was a real person and that Adam lived 6,000 years ago. Bishop Usshers book offers almost 1,000 pages of evidence for that.

bhsmte · Jul 1, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
If you can falsify Bishop Usshers book then produce your peer reviewers and falsify it.

Stephen Jay Gould, who, while totally disagreeing with Ussher's chronology, nevertheless wrote:[11]

"I shall be defending Ussher's chronology as an honorable effort for its time and arguing that our usual ridicule only records a lamentable small-mindedness based on mistaken use of present criteria to judge a distant and different past

Ussher represented the best of scholarship in his time. He was part of a substantial research tradition, a large community of intellectuals working toward a common goal under an accepted methodology…"

Need I remind you that Bishop Ussher establishes Adam as having lived 6,000 years ago. According to Bishop Ussher: "Of the many historians, who lived before Julius Caesar, the passing of time leaves only four of note: Herodotus, Thucidides, Xenophon and Polibius. The last one is poor and inaccurate in many places. These I esteemed the most authentic for their antiquity. I used them to correct the frequent errors in chronology of Diodorus Siculus."

I do not have time to condense this down and I doubt if your interested anyways. I assume what you are looking for is a point of contact. One point of contact we see is that Adam had a son named Cain. Cain's son Enoch built a city. Also we see Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. (Gen 5:22) When you start getting into metal: Copper-Tin = Bronze & Iron then you have dates you can work with from Science and Archeology. Eventually your going to come up with enough points of contact that you will see how accurate and dependable the Bible is when properly understood. Still we are dealing with a document that is 3500 years old. So some effort is going to need to go into understanding the Bible and the lesson there for our day and our generation. We know that it maybe a good idea to question our fathers and grandfathers understanding of the Bible because they did not have as much knowledge in Science as we have today.

To get back to your question: Adam does not have a name. He gave Eve her name. Genesis 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living". What we are looking at is the founder effect.

Adam Names the Animals
…19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field,

Science Eve (Mitochondrial Eve) is the Matriarch of all people. Bible Eve is the Matriarch of the Hebrew people. The Bible tends to follow the genealogy of Adam (Y-Chromosome) It is ONLY very recently that we learn about MtDNA and now we know we can follow the genealogy of Eve also. The Bible tells us that Adam begat sons and daughters.

5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city,

We see that Cain was the first to build a city. I do not think that Cain married his sister. I think that he got a wife from the non Hebrew people that lived in the Area. Genesis 4:16 "And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden". We see some interesting things in this chapter: Enoch (Cains son) built a city. Then we see Cains descendant: Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. (Gen 5:22). You know that bronze is a mixture of tin and copper.

"No one knows exactly where or how bronze was first discovered. By around 3500 BC, farm tools and weapons are being made of this new metal in these areas. Bronze Age begins in Bohemia (3500 BC to 3001 BC). Bronze is being used in the Mediterranean and Eastern European areas." (Wiki)

We talk about Iron, Bronze, Plows & Cities in the Bible and in the story of Adam and Eve and Cain. So this is a part of the puzzle that can help us to see the dates the Bishop Ussher comes up with. If you can falsify Bishop Usshers book, then by all means show me what you have to falsify his book and his results. Produce your experts and lets peer review the good Bishop Usshers book and show me where where there are discrepancies.

Genesis 4:18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.

Genesis 4:19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one [was] Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

Genesis 4:20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and [of such as have] cattle.

Genesis 4:21 And his brother's name [was] Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

Genesis 4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain [was] Naamah.

Preaching.

When you can falsify that aliens visited me and showed me that they created the universe and there is no god, let us know.

joshua 1 9 · Jul 1, 2016

bhsmte said:
Preaching.

I am answering the question. If you do not want an answer then don't ask the question.

When you can falsify that aliens

I have no doubt that aliens visit you often.

joshua 1 9 · Jul 1, 2016

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
But you weren't asked about peer review.

I asked a question about peer review. You are proving my point for me. I can not answer the question until we establish some perimeters. So that we can prevent people from cheating. Otherwise people are going to move the goal posts and change the rules. So we have to establish the rules first so you can not change them.

Warden_of_the_Storm · Jul 1, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
I asked a question about peer review. You are proving my point for me. I can not answer the question until we establish some perimeters. So that we can prevent people from cheating. Otherwise people are going to move the goal posts and change the rules. So we have to establish the rules first so you can not change them.

No, it's a simple question: can you present ACTUAL evidence that a man called Adam existed 6,000 years ago, and that he lived in the Garden of Eden, which you claim is in Mesopotamia?
That's all I want to know and I'm sure that's all anyone else wants to know.

joshua 1 9 · Jul 1, 2016

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
No, it's a simple question: can you present ACTUAL evidence that a man called Adam existed 6,000 years ago, and that he lived in the Garden of Eden, which you claim is in Mesopotamia? That's all I want to know and I'm sure that's all anyone else wants to know.

I gave you the best evidence I have: Bishop Usshers book which is a history from 4004 BC to 70 AD. Now if your going to say you accept that Alexander the Great was a real person but you do not accept that Paul of Tarsus was a real person then I want to know why you accept one and not the other? What standard are you going to use to determine when you can trust Bishop Ussher's book and when you think you can not trust his book? His book was first published in 1658.

"Ussher was able to establish an unadjusted Creation date of about 4000 BC. He moved it back to 4004 BC to take account of an error perpetrated by Dionysius Exiguus, the founder of the Anno Domini numbering system. Ussher chose 5 BC as Christ's birth year[5] because Josephus indicated that the death of Herod the Great occurred in 4 BC.[6] Jesus could not have been born after that date." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology

Warden_of_the_Storm · Jul 1, 2016

joshua 1 9 said:
I gave you the best evidence I have: Bishop Usshers book which is a history from 4004 BC to 70 AD. Now if your going to say you accept that Alexander the Great was a real person but you do not accept that Paul of Tarsus was a real person then I want to know why you accept one and not the other? What standard are you going to use to determine when you can trust Bishop Ussher's book and when you think you can not trust his book? His book was first published in 1658.

"Ussher was able to establish an unadjusted Creation date of about 4000 BC. He moved it back to 4004 BC to take account of an error perpetrated by Dionysius Exiguus, the founder of the Anno Domini numbering system. Ussher chose 5 BC as Christ's birth year[5] because Josephus indicated that the death of Herod the Great occurred in 4 BC.[6] Jesus could not have been born after that date."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology

Because there is actual evidence of Alexander the Great existing. There are murals, busts and writings about him, the latter from both Greek AND Persian sources.
But there is no evidence outside of the claim in the Old Testament that a man called Adam existed in the Garden of Eden.

DNA Evidence for the Bible

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