Adultery - eternal condemnation?

shioks

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I think it’s pretty clear that repentance is needed. But for Jesus I think repentance normally means turning from a life opposed to God to a life of obedience. That is it’s a change in orientation. What I think is dubious is that there’s a checklist of everything we did wrong, and we had better have repented of every one. The question then is whether there are particular sins that are mortal sins, and have to be repented or we are damned. Protestants have normally objected to the distinction between mortal and venal sins until you ask them whether an unrepentant adulterer or gay person can be saved. At that point the concept of mortal sin reappears, even though the theology will tell you it shouldn’t. I would prefer to stick with the theology as we find it with Jesus and Paul.

1 Cor 6:9 is probably not meant as a list of mortal sins, as it has a variety of types, some of which we wouldn’t typically think of at mortal (drunkenness being the clearest). If you look at the whole context, the passage is a warning against falling back into the sins that they were trapped in before they become Christian.

How do you reconcile Paul’s understanding elsewhere that sin remains in everyone with this passage? I think the answer is a somewhat paradoxical one. Sinners won’t inherit the Kingdom, but we’re all still at least in part sinners. God’s forgiveness through Christ lets him accept us anyway. That’s why he continues with 12 - 20. He doesn’t say that if you sin you’ll be damned. He says that because of our union with Christ, sin now involves Christ. Do we really want to involve Christ with a prostitute? Yuck!

I'm kind of "lost". Some of earlier posts said only blasphemy against Holy Spirit is unforgivable sin, but here we it sounded like adultery or unrepented sin is also unforgivable sin. Perhaps you can guide me on this.

Sorry...I'm not theologian and not good at scriptures per se. Your clarification is appreciated.
 
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Razare

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Many Christians say adultery is eternal sin and is condemned eternally.

I guess they should consider how they can consider themselves not to be adulterers.

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
- Matthew 5:28

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
- 1 John 1:8

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. (including adultery) - James 2:10

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

----- The Bible then clearly states that all people who have sinned in any way, have also committed the sin of sexual immorality and adultery. Adultery is worse than sexual immorality, but sexual immorality is sufficient to condemn a person... and a sexually immoral person is also an adulterer because of James 2:10.

So all men and women are consigned to the lake of fire unless they are without sin. But if they are without sin, they are liars according to 1 John 1:8. Liars are also listed as consigned to the lake of fire in Revelation 21:8.

I wish God could do something about this! But he did:

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
- Romans 10:4
 
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shioks

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I guess they should consider how they can consider themselves not to be adulterers.

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
- Matthew 5:28

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
- 1 John 1:8

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. (including adultery) - James 2:10

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

----- The Bible then clearly states that all people who have sinned in any way, have also committed the sin of sexual immorality and adultery. Adultery is worse than sexual immorality, but sexual immorality is sufficient to condemn a person... and a sexually immoral person is also an adulterer because of James 2:10.

So all men and women are consigned to the lake of fire unless they are without sin. But if they are without sin, they are liars according to 1 John 1:8. Liars are also listed as consigned to the lake of fire in Revelation 21:8.

I wish God could do something about this! But he did:

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
- Romans 10:4

so your conclusion is adultery/sexual sins is pardonable and is not condemned eternally?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I'm kind of "lost". Some of earlier posts said only blasphemy against Holy Spirit is unforgivable sin, but here we it sounded like adultery or unrepented sin is also unforgivable sin. Perhaps you can guide me on this.

Sorry...I'm not theologian and not good at scriptures per se. Your clarification is appreciated.
Good questions, and your getting a lot of answers that don't line up with Scripture, and a few that do.
The only way you will know is by reading Scripture yourself , and asking the Author of your Faith to grant you discernment (a gift from Him).
The penalty for sin is death.
That has never changed.
Some people think they can just keep sinning (like keep on living in adultery and telling other people too that it is okay)
and then have Jesus DIE FOR THEM AGAIN, re-crucifying the Savior, trampling His Blood underfoot....
they are in for a surprise, a very very horrible surprise.
 
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shioks

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Good questions, and your getting a lot of answers that don't line up with Scripture, and a few that do.
The only way you will know is by reading Scripture yourself , and asking the Author of your Faith to grant you discernment (a gift from Him).
The penalty for sin is death.
That has never changed.
Some people think they can just keep sinning (like keep on living in adultery and telling other people too that it is okay)
and then have Jesus DIE FOR THEM AGAIN, re-crucifying the Savior, trampling His Blood underfoot....
they are in for a surprise, a very very horrible surprise.

I know wages of sin is death. The question is we have been saved by Christ. Question is if adultery as a sin is condemned eternally is contradictory to 1 John 1:9.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I know wages of sin is death. The question is we have been saved by Christ. Question is if adultery as a sin is condemned eternally is contradictory to 1 John 1:9.
Simply, no - there is no contradiction in Scripture here or anywhere.
The 'problem' is people 'think'? that means they can live in continual adultery, which God NEVER says is okay. (Since living in continual adultery means they're NOT repenting).
Some churches,
reportedly,
tell their members - no worries....go ahead and sin, we'll forgive you every week.
As wrong as that is,
people fall for it, very often.... and may never find out the truth until it's too late for them,
or perhaps not too late to truthfully repent,
but at great cost in the meantime, while they continue living in sin. (it's never a good idea to tempt God, nor to think that He's somehow fooled by 'pretend repentance').
 
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RDKirk

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I like your response.

The question is repentance, how? I once heard a pastor said Satan knows your weakness (just like you said) and Satan will use your weakness to continue attacking you. Even great pastors have fallen to adultery or fornication.

And that is because they did not heed the Holy Spirit to the same extent they heeded their flesh.

And they may be deluded into thinking that the path to a particular sin is straight: e.g., lust leads to sexual sins, greed leads to financial sins. But often the path is more winding that than. It may be anger at a wife that sends a man into the arms of another woman. It may be resentment that leads a man to embezzle against his employer.

The man who is on guard against lust or greed may fall to anger or resentment...ending up in the same pit. That's why you don't see scripture prioritizing sins.
 
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shioks

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Simply, no - there is no contradiction in Scripture here or anywhere.
The 'problem' is people 'think'? that means they can live in continual adultery, which God NEVER says is okay. (Since living in continual adultery means they're NOT repenting).
Some churches,
reportedly,
tell their members - no worries....go ahead and sin, we'll forgive you every week.
As wrong as that is,
people fall for it, very often.... and may never find out the truth until it's too late for them,
or perhaps not too late to truthfully repent,
but at great cost in the meantime, while they continue living in sin. (it's never a good idea to tempt God, nor to think that He's somehow fooled by 'pretend repentance').

"some churches"....hmmm. Perhaps you can be a little bit more concrete. In so far, I have not heard of any churches openly tell their congregations to continue to sins.
 
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shioks

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And that is because they did not heed the Holy Spirit to the same extent they heeded their flesh.

And they may be deluded into thinking that the path to a particular sin is straight: e.g., lust leads to sexual sins, greed leads to financial sins. But often the path is more winding that than. It may be anger at a wife that sends a man into the arms of another woman. It may be resentment that leads a man to embezzle against his employer.

The man who is on guard against lust or greed may fall to anger or resentment...ending up in the same pit. That's why you don't see scripture prioritizing sins.

I remember reading somewhere in this forum that 50% of the pastors in USA is involved in adultery, inappropriate content and etc.. So even pastors fall short of God's grace.
 
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hedrick

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I'm kind of "lost". Some of earlier posts said only blasphemy against Holy Spirit is unforgivable sin, but here we it sounded like adultery or unrepented sin is also unforgivable sin. Perhaps you can guide me on this.

Sorry...I'm not theologian and not good at scriptures per se. Your clarification is appreciated.
I think I used words inconsistently. Let me try to clarify.

Many people think that the sin against the Holy Spirit can’t be forgiven at all, even if you repent. Personally I doubt it. But that’s what many people mean when they call it unforgiveable.

But the OP asks about adultery. It says that many Christians say it is an eternal sin and condemned eternally. To my knowledge, no one thinks that adultery is like the sin against the Holy Spirit. That is, I’m reasonably sure that all Christians believe it is forgiven if you repent. I believe the only debate is whether it can be forgiven if you don’t repent. That is, can someone who continues living in adultery be forgiven.

So the question I’m looking at is whether sin you *don’t* repent from can be forgiven. I argue that it can be forgiven, because we all have at least some sins we don’t repent from. Maybe we forget them. Maybe we don’t realize that they’re sins. Or maybe we just can’t give them up. I think most people who are honest will admit that this is the case.

But if everyone has some sins they don’t repent from, the next question is whether some sins are special, and if you don’t repent from them you’ll be damned. This is an area where Catholics and Protestants have traditionally disagreed. Catholic moral theology says that there are minor things we do wrong which we should stop but if we continue we can still be saved. However they believe that serious sins such as murder and adultery are “mortal,” meaning that they can’t be forgiven unless we repent.

Protestants traditionally do not accept the distinction between mortal and non-mortal sins. They believe that Christ’s death for us pays for all sins, as long as we have faith in him. I agree with this. So I would say that even an unrepentant adulterer could be saved if they have faith in Christ.

I think most of the responses to this thread agree with me. One response was by a Catholic. Not surprisingly, he gave the correct Catholic answer, which is that adultery is a mortal sin, and you must repent.

There is actually a division even among Protestants. As far as I can tell the people posting in this thread have given the usual Protestant answer. But there are Protestants who hold that people who have truly accepted Christ as Lord won’t sin, or at least won’t do certain sins. This is called “Lordship salvation.” So if someone is living in ongoing adultery I think they would say that this person hasn’t really accepted Christ as Lord, and thus their sin will be condemned. I’m not the right person to defend, or even describe this position. But it doesn’t appear that anyone in this thread holds it.

The problem with Lordship salvation from my point of view is that I don’t think it’s realistic about the fact that even those of us who follow Christ are still a mix of saint and sinner. The traditional term going back to Luther is “simul justus et peccator,” both righteous and sinner. It is based on Romans 7:14-24, where Paul says that he is at war with himself. He wants to be good, but he can’t be.

The reason I’m describing all of these positions is because that’s what you asked for in the OP.

A summary:
* Catholics say that some sins are mortal, and if you don’t repent of one of them you’re in trouble. In principle you’ll go to hell, but I think they recognize that God will judge our hearts and it may not be quite that black and white in the end.
* Traditional Protestants say that if you have faith in Christ all your sins are forgiven.
* Lordship salvation says that traditional Protestants are right, but that if you really have faith there are some things you’ll never do. So people who do them can’t possibly be real Christians. (At least I think this is what they say.)

There’s a little bit of Lordship salvation in most traditional Protestants. Obviously Christ expects his followers to show it in our lives. We will certainly tell an adulterer that God expects him to turn his life around. And if he's part of a Church, we may use Church discipline to encourage that change. But we'll be more inclined to demand that he fix his life than to claim that he isn't a Christian.
 
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Razare

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so your conclusion is adultery/sexual sins is pardonable and is not condemned eternally?

No, my conclusion is that it would condemn every man to die, so either a person believes Jesus forgave them, or they should believe with 100% certainty they are going to hell. Those who do not want to accept the forgiveness at the cross, should believe they are going to hell as their theology.

But any sort of situation where some men are saved and some are not, because some committed adultery and some did not, is a lie. All did. So all will go to hell for it, including me, unless I have a power superior to the law of condemnation.

There's no need to be wishy washy on it. It is certainly a sin to send every man to hell because the Bible outlines it that way.

There is also no pardon for it. A person must die according to the law. I believe however, that I died at the cross through Christ. Romans 6:8

But if I did not die, then I am still condemned to eternal death.
 
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RDKirk

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So the question I’m looking at is whether sin you *don’t* repent from can be forgiven. I argue that it can be forgiven, because we all have at least some sins we don’t repent from. Maybe we forget them. Maybe we don’t realize that they’re sins. Or maybe we just can’t give them up. I think most people who are honest will admit that this is the case.

Wait, the problem there is not recognizing what "sin" actually is. Sin is not in the specifics of an act, sin is in the character of the intent that leads to an act. "Whatever is not from faith is sin."

We should be able to point to some specific acts that in our understanding of God's character cannot possibly be from faith, but just as well, all of the so-called "good" acts of unbelievers are not from faith but from self-esteem and are also sin. And as well, so-called "good" acts by believers are sin, if done from the same intent of self-esteem.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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"some churches"....hmmm. Perhaps you can be a little bit more concrete. In so far, I have not heard of any churches openly tell their congregations to continue to sins.
see your next post.

I remember reading somewhere in this forum that 50% of the pastors in USA is involved in adultery, inappropriate content and etc.. So even pastors fall short of God's grace.
in some cities in europe, it was reported much higher than 50%, for centuries. It's been reported long time in the united states, doctors, priests and pastors have had the highest rate of sexual sin with others in their power (as in Scripture - weaseling into the homes of weak women.... etc etc taking advantage of them , using knowledge, power, and position)
see foxes book of martyrs for specific examples of the permitted and promoted gross defilement in the ministry in past centuries.
 
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NOTWHATIWAS

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If you "repent" and "turn away" from your sinful lifestyle ("confess w/your mouth and believe your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord, you will be saved"). This includes ALL manner of sexual sin-adultery, fornication, homosexuality,etc.)
 
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PeterDona

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Disagree. Paul even said in I Cor 7 with regard to one who has been "loosed" from a wife via divorce "But if you marry, you have not sinned."
So your interpretation is, that a divorce has the effect of "loose"ning a person from a spouse? Following the words of 1 Corinthians 7:27-28.

It does not line up with other passages e.g. the saying in Luke 16:18 where Jesus talks about marriage after a divorce being adultery. Therefore divorce cannot be the same as a loosening. David Instone-Brewer argues, that there was historically a jewish priestly process following the stipulations in Exodus 21:7-11, whereby a jewish priest would grant a person freedom from a marriage. This would happen example if the husband could be proven to be impotent.

I think this jewish practise was quite restrictive, and so obtaining a loosening is not a very realistic way to get out of a marriage.
 
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PeterDona

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We have seen many Christians (be it Pastors, layman or followers) fall due to Sex, Money and Power. In this thread, I would like to learn different views (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant and etc) on adultery.

We know Jesus has forgiven the sin of the lady who has 5 husbands but yet when Christians divorce and enter remarriage, not in accordance to the two teachings by Jesus and Paul, is deemed adulterous.

Many Christians say adultery is eternal sin and is condemned eternally. Do you agree? If so, why? If not, why?
The woman who had had 5 husbands, and the one she had now was not her husband, is in John 4:1-26. One of the longest accounts in the Gospels at all. So we are given a quite detailed account of this.

I would certainly like to be able to do evangelism like this: having people come and beg me for living water, and then I just had to point out some of their sins :)

Well, clearly the point of the narrative is, that admitting your sin before God is part of recieving the living water. So I would say, that adultery or fornication (this woman was proficient in both) is not a damning sin, but you have to repent and turn from it, and recieve the living water.

Btw there is an interesting interpretation problem here: why did Jesus say, you have had 5 husbands?
1) one view could be, Jesus recognized all 5 as valid marriages
2) another is, that Jesus actually starts to enlist all her sins, and thus having 5 marriages is sinful
I opt for option 2. But I have seen people use option 1.
 
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hedrick

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The woman who had had 5 husbands, and the one she had now was not her husband, is in John 4:1-26. One of the longest accounts in the Gospels at all. So we are given a quite detailed account of this.

I would certainly like to be able to do evangelism like this: having people come and beg me for living water, and then I just had to point out some of their sins :)

Well, clearly the point of the narrative is, that admitting your sin before God is part of recieving the living water. So I would say, that adultery or fornication (this woman was proficient in both) is not a damning sin, but you have to repent and turn from it, and recieve the living water.

Btw there is an interesting interpretation problem here: why did Jesus say, you have had 5 husbands?
1) one view could be, Jesus recognized all 5 as valid marriages
2) another is, that Jesus actually starts to enlist all her sins, and thus having 5 marriages is sinful
I opt for option 2. But I have seen people use option 1.
The problem with this is that there's no sign in the text that either Jesus or the woman thinks he is accusing her of sin. If he were talking about the sin of divorce, surely would have said not that she had 5 husbands but that she had been divorced 5 times. But from the passage we don't know for sure even that she was divorced. Perhaps all 5 had died.

For that reason this whole understanding of the passage makes no sense.

This passage has attracted an amazing breadth of interpretations. E.g. one interpreter said that the woman had matrimonial designs on Jesus! That makes me wary of giving my own.

However let’s look at what is going on. The woman asks for living water, though she obviously doesn’t understand what it is. Jesus suddenly turns the discussion in a personal direction. He shows that he knows her life. What happens to the theme about living water? As far as I can see it disappears. The woman refuses to engage Jesus on a personal level. Might he have called for repentance? Maybe so. But it doesn’t happen.

Because it doesn’t, it’s really hard to get out of this passages any relationship between repentance and the living water. We just don’t know in what direction Jesus would have taken things.
 
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RDKirk

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So your interpretation is, that a divorce has the effect of "loose"ning a person from a spouse? Following the words of 1 Corinthians 7:27-28.

It does not line up with other passages e.g. the saying in Luke 16:18 where Jesus talks about marriage after a divorce being adultery. Therefore divorce cannot be the same as a loosening. David Instone-Brewer argues, that there was historically a jewish priestly process following the stipulations in Exodus 21:7-11, whereby a jewish priest would grant a person freedom from a marriage. This would happen example if the husband could be proven to be impotent.

I think this jewish practise was quite restrictive, and so obtaining a loosening is not a very realistic way to get out of a marriage.

The only legitimate such "loosing" is that which Paul mentions earlier: When the unbelieving spouse abandons the believing spouse. When flat-out abandoned in that way, the believing spouse is able to remarry (and I'll say that someone who abandons his spouse in that way does not have the Holy Spirit in him, even if he gives Jesus lip service).

And a spouse--particularly a young woman--who has been abandoned in that way (which might have happened fairly frequently when a wife became a believer and her husband did not), must remarry because of 1 Timothy 5:

So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.

That is just as true of a young woman abandoned by her husband as for a widow.
 
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PeterDona

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The only legitimate such "loosing" is that which Paul mentions earlier: When the unbelieving spouse abandons the believing spouse. When flat-out abandoned in that way, the believing spouse is able to remarry (and I'll say that someone who abandons his spouse in that way does not have the Holy Spirit in him, even if he gives Jesus lip service).

And a spouse--particularly a young woman--who has been abandoned in that way (which might have happened fairly frequently when a wife became a believer and her husband did not), must remarry because of 1 Timothy 5:

So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.

That is just as true of a young woman abandoned by her husband as for a widow.
This is not in line with Jesus' sayings in e.g. Luke 16:18,
and it goes against some clear distinctions made in Paul's letters:
1 Corinthians 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth, but if her husband be dead she is at liberty to be married to whom she will
Romans 7:2-3 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
I would say, that your interpretation is in a grey area, where there is some sliding the meaning of words. A divorced person can not be the same as a widow. Also, 7:15 is quite unclear if you want to use it for a remarriage license, since the word "bound" in 7:15 is probably itself a slided meaning. It is the greek "douluoo", which means "enslaved". If it meant "bound" it would have been the greek word "deo", see e.g. 7:39.
 
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