LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

BigDaddy4 said:

Unfortunately, you have no Biblical support to back you up. What attempts at Biblical support you have made, are only the twistings of Scripture through the mormon organization teachings. They are not reality.

You should not be a mormon, because what you said JS claimed to happen, did not happen. But then you put yourself into a corner, because no Bible believing church believes these priesthoods exist today. Because they actually don't.

Click to expand...

NYCGuy said:

Citations please.

Click to expand...

Ironhold said:

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-fastest-growing-religious-denominations-in-America-today
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-03-18-Adventists_17_ST_N.htm

#1 Seventh-Day Adventists: 2.3%
#2 LDS: 1.7%

http://www.mychurchgrowth.com/church growth/agr.php

#1 Jehovah's Witnesses
#2 Seventh-Day Adventists
#3 LDS

(Note that you can hear the bile in the author's voice as he reports this.)

Click to expand...

Peter1000 said:

First of all, since you do not believe in the priesthood, no one in your church has it or wants it. So just to say that we are all priesthood holders and that is the great spiritual equalizer means nothing.

The Mormons have a temple, and a veil, but we do not sacrifice animals any more, that was done away when the last great sacrifice of Jesus Christ was made. Now we remember him through the sacrament of the Lord's supper.
Or do you even do the sacrament, since you probably do not believe that ordinance saves you, so why do it?

The present power structure that exists in the church today is approximately the same power structure that existed in the NT church. Every member that is baptized is given the opportunity to hold the priesthood and act in their calling thereof. Some don't take it seriously and don't take the priesthood. Some take the priesthood and then fall away and their priesthood is useless to them. You were once a member, what priesthood did you hold?

Christians need the priesthood between them and God still for certain ordinances to be performed. They do not need a priesthood holder between them to pray to God for guidance and blessings. When the protestant movement took shape around 1500ad, this was a major issue. It was decided then that because of the corrupt Catholic church priesthhod, there didn't need to be a priest between God and man, hence the belief that there really isn't any priesthood. Luther was wrong. There is a need. The same need that the NT people needed apostles and bishops and elders etc., etc., etc. Read the NT again and ask yourself where is my apostle today?
Where is my bishop as in the NT, where are the Elders of the church, like in the NT? What offices do you have in your church. Maybe a pastor, or deacon. Well that's a start, but is woefully short of the NT church organization.
I know that doesn't matter to you because it doesn't fit your agenda, but if Christ thought these offices were important, maybe they are.

Click to expand...

NYCGuy said:

The specific claim was "That is why the Mormon church is continually moving up and is now the 4th largest church in the U.S. and will soon be the 3rd largest."

Where is the data that shows that it will soon be the 3rd largest??

Click to expand...

Peter1000 said:

I know that Peter says we are a royal priesthood. I know that Jesus changed the priesthood so that the MP was the officiating priesthood now, and not the AP. So the offices of the MP changed from just a priest and high priest to apostles, prophets, bishops, elders etc., etc., etc. These are all named in the bible and support what I say.

I know that Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven and the power to grant forgiveness. That is power that only Jesus held up to that point that he was going to heaven and needed help here on earth to expand his church and govern it properly. This power that Peter and the apostles were given was called the MP. What do you call it? You don't even recognize the power, so why would it have a name?

You can not with a surety say that JS did not have his experiences, as long as there is one person that bears testimony that he did. I bear testimony that he did and that the priesthood exists today. If there is no MP, Christ's church does not exist. Some day you will come to know it is just that simple.

Click to expand...

NYCGuy said:

The specific claim was "That is why the Mormon church is continually moving up and is now the 4th largest church in the U.S. and will soon be the 3rd largest."

Where is the data that shows that it will soon be the 3rd largest??

Click to expand...

Ironhold said:

In that case, I misread the question.

That being said, however, what do you feel about the growth rate?

Click to expand...

ToBeLoved said:

I think this is where we mention again that the numbers are skewed. Counting 8 year olds. Counting former members. Counting everyone ever baptised that is still not active.

Click to expand...

Peter1000 said:

The question was about growth rate, not gross numbers.

Click to expand...

ToBeLoved said:

Let me try to illustrate this for you.
From Adam to Moses - No priesthood because sin was not taken into account.

Romans 5:13-14
13 For sin was in the world before the Law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed.

What does this mean? Until the law was given, 10 Commandments which tells man what is against the law of God, man did not know exactly what a sin was against God. That is why the 10 Commandments were given. So mankind would know what is a sin.

Covenant- There was no covenant. The Old Covenant began when Moses was given the 10 Commandments.


From Moses to Jesus Christ - The Aaronic/Levitical Priesthood. The priesthood made temporary intercession for sins for the people (Hebrews) through animal sacrifices and other rituals for temporary atonement of sin.

The core of the old covenant is the Ten Commandments (Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13). As part of the old covenant, the people at Mt. Sinai also agreed to obey all the laws in Exodus 20, 21, 22 and 23. These additional laws became part of the covenant God made with Israel, and the covenant was then ratified with blood (Exodus 24:6-8).

Hebrews 9:1 tells us that it also included directions for the tabernacle. Instructions for the altar, Levitical priests and animal sacrifices were given in Exodus 25-31. These were part of God’s original plan for Israel. He knew very well that the people would sin and would need a tabernacle and regular burnt offerings. It was all part of the plan, part of his relationship with his people, part of his covenant.

What does this mean? Because the Old Covenant people could not keep all of the 10 Commandments, temporary atonement was needed for sins.


The Levitical priesthood began with Aaron, the older brother of Moses (Exodus 28:1–3). Aaron’s descendants served as the priests in Israel, ministering in the tabernacle and, later, the temple, primarily as mediators between man and God. The Levitical priests bore the responsibility of offering the sacrifices required by the Mosaic Law. Some of the Levitical priests in the Bible are Ezra; Eli; and Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist.

The term Levitical is derived from the Israelite tribe of Levi. Levi was the third son of Leah and Jacob (Genesis 29:34) and the father of the tribe of Levi, the tribe of Moses and Aaron. Originally, it was the firstborn son of every family who was consecrated to God and inherited the birthright, leadership, authority, etc. (Exodus 13:2). We see this institution of “first” things being what God requires as far back as Genesis 4:4 when God was pleased with the firstborn of Abel’s flock that he offered to God (see Proverbs 3:9 and Romans 11:16). Later, when God made Israel into a nation, He called them His firstborn son (Exodus 4:22–23), and each individual Israelite was called to be holy, priestly, and royal (Exodus 19:5–6). And then out of the nation of Israel God chose the tribe of Levi to serve Him and the sons of Aaron to be the priests. Thus, all priests were Levites, but not every Levite was a priest.

Some Bible commentators have said God chose the tribe of Levi to be His priests because they were obedient to God after the infamous “golden calf” incident at the foot of Mt. Sinai (Exodus 32:26–29). However, God had made Levi’s tribe priestly before that time (Exodus 28:1–4). Furthermore, on his deathbed, Jacob had issued a stern malediction against his son Levi (Genesis 49:5–7). Patriarchal prophecies such as these were not taken lightly, and Jacob’s words must have dealt Levi a sharp blow.

Jacob’s prophecy that Levi’s descendants would be scattered throughout Israel (Genesis 49:7) was fulfilled when God appointed them as the priestly tribe who, unlike the other tribes, would receive no land inheritance. However, in God’s sovereign and mysterious way, Jacob’s prophecy turned into a blessing because Levi’s inheritance was better than land—it was God Himself (Numbers 18:20). And God promised to provide for the Levites from the abundance of all of the other tribes (Numbers 18:8–14).

The Levites who were not priests were given various duties in the caretaking of the tabernacle and its furnishings (Numbers 3:21–26). The priests among the Levites were given the immeasurable privilege of doing service in the tabernacle. The Levitical priests also served as judges (Deuteronomy 17:8–13) and teachers of God’s law (Deuteronomy 33:10).

The high priest could deliver edicts to guide the nation (Numbers 27:21). He was the only one permitted to enter the Most Holy Place (1 Chronicles 6:49; Leviticus 24:9), divided by a curtain from the rest of the tabernacle and containing the Ark of the Testimony (or Covenant), the symbol of God’s very presence (Hebrews 9:3; 1 Kings 8:6; Exodus 25:22). The high priest could only enter the Most Holy Place once a year on the Day of Atonement to offer sacrifices for all the people, including himself (Hebrews 9:7). There was only one high priest at a time.

God held the priests to the most stringent standards of behavior and ritual purity (Leviticus 21). Abihu and Nadab were sons of Aaron and two of the first priests. They disobeyed God, however, and were instantly struck down (Leviticus 10:1–2). Later, the sons of the high priest Eli “treated the offering of the Lord with contempt” and were also judged (1 Samuel 2:12–17).

In the time of Christ, the Sadducees comprised most of the priesthood and were known to be a wealthy class of people. The Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection (Matthew 22:23) or in any kind of spiritual realm such as angels and demons live in (Acts 23:8). The chief priests Caiaphas and Annas were instrumental in having Jesus crucified (John 18:13).

The Levitical priesthood was never intended to be permanent (Hebrews 7:11). The death of Christ put an end to the Old Covenant and the Levitical priesthood, as evidenced by the rending of the temple veil (Matthew 27:51). Now Jesus Himself serves as the believer’s Great High Priest (Hebrews 4:14), called according to the order of Melchizedek, not of Levi (Hebrews 7:11–17). Through His death and resurrection, we have access to God’s presence, where we can freely enjoy Him forever (Hebrews 6:19–20).

Jesus Christ to the end of time - Jesus Christ is the High Priest. The royal priesthood is ALL believers, because the new tabernacle of the New Covenant is each believer themselves. God Himself, the Holy Spirit resides/indwells each believer, so each believer is there own tabernacle/temple.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the action by which God takes up permanent residence in the body of a believer in Jesus Christ. In the Old Testament, the Spirit would come and go from the saints, empowering them for service but not necessarily remaining with them (see Judges 15:14; 1 Chronicles 12:18; Psalm 51:11; Ezekiel 11:5). Jesus revealed to His disciples the new role the Spirit of Truth would play in their lives: “He lives with you and will be in you” (John 14:17). The apostle Paul wrote, “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you are bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body” (1 Corinthians 6:19–20).

These verses are telling us that the believer in Jesus Christ has the third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, living in him. When an individual accepts Christ as personal Savior, the Holy Spirit gives the believer the life of God, eternal life, which is really His very nature (Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:4), and the Holy Spirit comes to live within him spiritually. The fact that the believer’s body is likened to a temple where the Holy Spirit lives helps us understand what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is all about. The word temple is used to describe the Holy of Holies, the inner sanctum in the Old Testament tabernacle structure. There, God’s presence would appear in a cloud and meet the high priest, who came once a year into the Holy of Holies. On the Day of Atonement, the high priest brought the blood of a slain animal and sprinkled it on the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant. On this special day, God granted forgiveness to the priest and His people.

Today, there is no Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and the animal sacrifices have ceased. The believer in Christ has become the inner sanctum of God the Holy Spirit, as the believer has been sanctified and forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:7). The believer in Christ becomes the habitation of the Holy Spirit of God. In fact, Scripture also says that the believer is indwelt spiritually by Christ (Colossians 1:27) and by God the Father (1 John 4:15)—the Trinity is involved.

As the Holy Spirit lives in the believer, He brings about some life-changing results:

1) The indwelling Spirit comes to a soul dead in sin and creates new life (Titus 3:5). This is the new birth Jesus spoke of in John 3:1–8.

2) The indwelling Spirit confirms to the believer that he belongs to the Lord and is an heir of God and fellow-heir with Christ (Romans 8:15–17).

3) The indwelling Spirit installs the new believer as a member of Christ’s universal church. This is the baptism of the Spirit, according to 1 Corinthians 12:13.

4) The indwelling Spirit gives spiritual gifts (God-given abilities for service) to the believer to edify the church and serve the Lord effectively for His glory (1 Corinthians 12:11).

5) The indwelling Spirit helps the believer understand and apply the Scripture to his daily life (1 Corinthians 2:12).

6) The indwelling Spirit enriches the believer’s prayer life and intercedes for him in prayer (Romans 8:26–27).

7) The indwelling Holy Spirit empowers the yielded believer to live for Christ to do His will (Galatians 5:16). The Spirit leads the believer in paths of righteousness (Romans 8:14).

8) The indwelling Spirit gives evidence of new life by producing the fruit of the Spirit in the believer’s life (Galatians 5:22–23).

9) The indwelling Spirit is grieved when the believer sins (Ephesians 4:30), and He convicts the believer to confess his sin to the Lord so that fellowship is restored (1 John 1:9).

10) The indwelling Spirit seals the believer unto the day of redemption so that the believer’s arrival in the Lord’s presence is guaranteed after this life (Ephesians 1:13–14).

When you accept Christ as your Savior (Romans 10:9–13), the Holy Spirit takes up residence in your heart, bringing with Him an entirely new life of love, relationship, and service to the Lord.


What is the Melchezedek priesthood?

In biblical Christianity, the Melchizedek priesthood is an office that applies only to Christ. Melchizedek is introduced in Genesis 14:18 and is described as the king of Salem and “priest of God.” Abram (later Abraham) offers Melchizedek a tithe and is blessed. The name Melchizedek is the combination of the Hebrew words for “king” and “righteous,” making Melchizedek a righteous, kingly priest.

In Matthew 22 Jesus debates the Pharisees. In verse 44 Jesus cites Psalm 110:1, stating that the Messiah is David’s “lord” in that verse. Melchizedek is mentioned in the same psalm: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek’” (Psalm 110:4). So the Messiah, David’s lord, was given Melchizedek’s priesthood. Melchizedek is therefore a type of Christ—some commentators say Melchizedek’s appearance to Abraham was actually a Christophany, an early revelation of Jesus Christ.

Much of chapters 6 and 7 of the book of Hebrews is given to explaining why Jesus’ Melchizedek priesthood is superior to that of Aaron. Hebrews 7:23–24 implies that Jesus holds His priestly office eternally, using a Greek word that suggests something that cannot be passed down or changed. Hebrews 7:26 calls this priest “exalted” and sinless.

For all of these reasons, Christ alone can fulfill the office of the Melchizedek priesthood (Hebrews 6:20), at least according to the Bible.

Who was Melchezedek?

Melchizedek, whose name means “king of righteousness,” was a king of Salem (Jerusalem) and priest of the Most High God (Genesis 14:18–20; Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 5:6–11; 6:20—7:28). Melchizedek’s sudden appearance and disappearance in the book of Genesis is somewhat mysterious. Melchizedek and Abraham first met after Abraham’s defeat of Chedorlaomer and his three allies. Melchizedek presented bread and wine to Abraham and his weary men, demonstrating friendship. He bestowed a blessing on Abraham in the name of El Elyon (“God Most High”) and praised God for giving Abraham a victory in battle (Genesis 14:18–20).

Abraham presented Melchizedek with a tithe (a tenth) of all the items he had gathered. By this act Abraham indicated that he recognized Melchizedek as a priest who ranked higher spiritually than he.

In Psalm 110, a messianic psalm written by David (Matthew 22:43), Melchizedek is presented as a type of Christ. This theme is repeated in the book of Hebrews, where both Melchizedek and Christ are considered kings of righteousness and peace. By citing Melchizedek and his unique priesthood as a type, the writer shows that Christ’s new priesthood is superior to the old levitical order and the priesthood of Aaron (Hebrews 7:1–10).

Some propose that Melchizedek was actually a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ, or a Christophany. This is a possible theory, given that Abraham had received such a visit before. Consider Genesis 17 where Abraham saw and spoke with the Lord (El Shaddai) in the form of a man.

Hebrews 6:20 says, “[Jesus] has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.” This term order would ordinarily indicate a succession of priests holding the office. None are ever mentioned, however, in the long interval from Melchizedek to Christ, an anomaly that can be solved by assuming that Melchizedek and Christ are really the same person. Thus the “order” is eternally vested in Him and Him alone.

Hebrews 7:3 says that Melchizedek was “without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.” The question is whether the author of Hebrews means this actually or figuratively.

If the description in Hebrews is literal, then it is indeed difficult to see how it could be properly applied to anyone but the Lord Jesus Christ. No mere earthly king “remains a priest forever,” and no mere human is “without father or mother.” If Genesis 14 describes a theophany, then God the Son came to give Abraham His blessing (Genesis 14:17–19), appearing as the King of Righteousness (Revelation 19:11,16), the King of Peace (Isaiah 9:6), and the Mediator between God and Man (1 Timothy 2:5).

If the description of Melchizedek is figurative, then the details of having no genealogy, no beginning or ending, and a ceaseless ministry are simply statements accentuating the mysterious nature of the person who met Abraham. In this case, the silence in the Genesis account concerning these details is purposeful and better serves to link Melchizedek with Christ.

Are Melchizedek and Jesus the same person? A case can be made either way. At the very least, Melchizedek is a type of Christ, prefiguring the Lord’s ministry.


Read it carefully. This answers all your questions about these priesthoods.

Click to expand...

ToBeLoved said:

Why would you not think gross numbers are what formulates growth rate? That seems a little nieve'

Click to expand...

ToBeLoved said:

Let's see. There needs to be a priesthood between man and God.

Straight out of the Old Testament. If God wanted a priesthood between man and Gof then they had exactly that BEFORE CHRIST

. I know makes no sense to you guys. I

Click to expand...

Phoebe Ann said:

Most Mormons don't obey enough commandments to gain exaltation. And, folks, being saved isn't about numbers. Haw many non-Cnristians are there in the world?

Click to expand...

Peter1000 said:

You say: From Adam to Moses - No priesthood because sin was not taken into account.

I read your whole response and it was interesting to get another spin on the history of the priesthood.

The only problem with your statement is you obviously forgot Melchisedec's priesthood and if you forgot about him (I'm not sure how you did, because we all know he had the MP and lived after Adam and before Moses), then what priesthood did Adam have, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob?

You know very little about priesthood if you say no priesthood from Adam to Moses. If it wasn't for the Mormons, the Melchisedec priesthood would never be spoken of. You deny it is necessary, and you deny that it is on the earth today. You have denied it since 1500ad and so it's good that JS came along and Peter, James, and John restored this priesthood to the earth.

The priesthood is the authority to act for God and Jesus here on earth. In order for man to do the works of God, while Jesus is in heaven, he must have the same keys of the priesthood that Jesus gave to Peter. Whether before Christ or after Christ, you must have the same keys of the priesthood that Peter was given. That authority is always on the earth from the beginning to the end. And don't worry, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Click to expand...

tickingclocker said:

"Peter1000, post: 69808509, member: 382212"]First of all, since you do not believe in the priesthood, no one in your church has it or wants it.
---Peter, God rules my church. Not you. Not mormonism. Don't be surprised by that fact when the time comes. You wish to remain under your delusions, go right ahead. I'll continue to pray for you that you come to enjoy the full blessings of being one in Christ.

So just to say that we are all priesthood holders and that is the great spiritual equalizer means nothing.
---It means a lot to God. If it doesn't mean anything to you, so be it. I'm not here to control your life.

The Mormons have a temple, and a veil, but we do not sacrifice animals any more, that was done away when the last great sacrifice of Jesus Christ was made. Now we remember him through the sacrament of the Lord's supper.
Or do you even do the sacrament, since you probably do not believe that ordinance saves you, so why do it?
---You're getting a bit tetchy here, aren't you? Your irritation is showing when you snidely imply that we don't bother to hold Communion? Seriously? I'll overlook it for now, but you might want to tone that down a bit in future. It would be considered flaming in some people's eyes.

The present power structure that exists in the church today is approximately the same power structure that existed in the NT church.
---There is no human "power" structure within the NT church. Jesus is our Head. We are His willing hands and feet, bringing His Gospel, God's message of salvation, to the lost of the world. We are all equal workers in God's Kingdom, working toward the same goal. Nobody is higher than another in Christianity. The only true "power" at work is God's grace and love.

Every member that is baptized is given the opportunity to hold the priesthood and act in their calling thereof. Some don't take it seriously and don't take the priesthood. Some take the priesthood and then fall away and their priesthood is useless to them. You were once a member, what priesthood did you hold?
---You see, that's the very thing that God cannot stand. Division. HE looks upon us as equal sinners, so why shouldn't He expect us to follow His lead? You know Galatians 3:28 just as well as I do, so I won't quote it here and insult your intelligence. You commit heinous sins, you are not righteous compared to God's perfect holiness. You commit one tiny sin, you are not righteous compared to God's perfect holiness. No one can be, whether they are man or woman or priest. Priests were human. They sinned. Even they, who brought the sinner's sacrifice before the Lord, had to confess their sins. What is so bad about being equal before God in light of that? Who is like Him? Even men and women are equals before Him, in any culture. Not so in mormonism. I wasn't allowed to hold a "priesthood", being female. See? There are no equals in mormonism, so why this got you so upset is beyond me. I'm merely stating the truth as it appears as plain as the nose on your face. It's a pyramid scheme when it comes to the hierarchy of "power". You can't see it for what it is because you benefit from it. Admit it.

When the protestant movement took shape around 1500ad, this was a major issue. It was decided then that because of the corrupt Catholic church priesthhod, there didn't need to be a priest between God and man, hence the belief that there really isn't any priesthood. Luther was wrong. There is a need. The same need that the NT people needed apostles and bishops and elders etc., etc., etc.
---Why don't you tell Lutherans this, that Luther was "wrong"? I'm not Lutheran, so I can't speak for them. I can speak for Christianity, being a Christian, that all God's children, those who do His will, are priests. HE says so. Not the LDS. Who should we believe here? God? Or the LDS? We've already chosen, Peter. God wins. Every time. And I do believe the Lutheran church has bishops and elders the last time I looked. Or did you either not know that, or did you forget that? Some churches believe in holding the apostles office. Good for them. But that man in that office is no better a Christian than I or anyone else is. And he knows it, and has no problem with the knowledge. We both love the same God and Savior, and are loved by Him. Equally. Is that the part mormonism cannot stand? We are all loved equally? IDK.

Read the NT again and ask yourself where is my apostle today?... Where is my bishop as in the NT, where are the Elders of the church, like in the NT? What offices do you have in your church. Maybe a pastor, or deacon. Well that's a start, but is woefully short of the NT church organization.
---What's in a name? And how do you know my church doesn't have bishops and elders? You are assuming it doesn't because its a "Christian" church? I hope you are old enough to know what happens when people "assume".

I know that doesn't matter to you because it doesn't fit your agenda, but if Christ thought these offices were important, maybe they are.
---I don't have an "agenda" except to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the Lost, wherever or whoever they happen to be, Peter. God loves you, and has a wonderful plan for your life.

For a day in Your House is better than a thousand. It is better to be a door-keeper in the House of my God, than to be living in the tents of sin. (Ps 84:10)

Let me get that door for you.

Click to expand...

Peter1000 said:

This is not a discussion about who rules your church, of course Ido not rule your church. I just said, because you deny the priesthood's existence, no body in your church has it or even wants it. That would be the truth, wouldn't it?

Click to expand...

Peter1000 said:

You say: Some churches believe in holding the apostles office. Good for them. But that man in that office is no better a Christian than I or anyone else is.

In theory you are right.

Click to expand...