LDS Mormonism is an enemy of the Cross and therefore not Christian

tickingclocker · Jun 30, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
They let you associate with apostates so I don't think you know.

Do you also wonder, like me, if Mormons would dare say the same to those moms in MADD who's children's lives were lost because of the sheer stupidity of drunk drivers? How about to John Walsh, and his successful crime show "America's Most Wanted"? Or to those who donate in their loved one's name to find the cure for cancer sooner so no one will have to go through what they saw their loved one go through, with no hope in sight? Would they dismiss so easily those who fund programs to financially help families of children battling cancer, like those brilliant, compassionate employees of MacDonald's who developed Ronald MacDonald House, a literal God-send to families of sick children? Would they say the same to former addicts who now reach out to help those struggling with addictions grasp their worth as fellow human beings? Or how about all those Christians who went from misery to joyful, eternal life after hearing through someone who cared, to believing the truth of God by faith, and now wish to share that same life-saving message of God's salvation plan with the world?

Why didn't they, too, just hold in their pain and suffering, in private, alone, and simply walk away into the handy-dandy shadows to silently live what was left of their lives? Why care about others who went through or are going through the same pain and suffering as someone else? Why take the time and effort to reach out to anyone, to offer godly compassion, love, understanding, information, support, or hope? You don't "have" to, right.....? So go on your way and nurse whatever pain and suffering you have in private, please? Keep it to yourselves, because we TBM's have more important things to do besides wish to see and hear it, understand it, allow it, acknowledge it, deal with its sad realities and encompassing aftereffects, and to care about it or you?

But they see no problem in saying such things to ex-Mormons. Why? Because they somehow don't think we deserve the right to think for ourselves, to express our pain, tell of our suffering, or to help others see what we have discovered to be true? That there is hope and joy and love and peace out here?

I see. Some people have small souls. They just do.

“He has filled the hungry with good things; And sent away the "rich" empty-handed. (Luke 1:53)

ToBeLoved · Jun 30, 2016

tickingclocker said:
Do you also wonder, like me, if Mormons would dare say the same to those moms in MADD who's children's lives were lost because of the sheer stupidity of drunk drivers? How about to John Walsh, and his successful crime show "America's Most Wanted"? Or to those who donate in their loved one's name to find the cure for cancer sooner so no one will have to go through what they saw their loved one go through, with no hope in sight? Would they dismiss so easily those who fund programs to financially help families of children battling cancer, like those brilliant, compassionate employees of MacDonald's who developed Ronald MacDonald House, a literal God-send to families of sick children? Would they say the same to former addicts who now reach out to help those struggling with addictions grasp their worth as fellow human beings? Or how about all those Christians who went from misery to joyful, eternal life after hearing through someone who cared, to believing the truth of God by faith, and now wish to share that same life-saving message of God's salvation plan with the world?

Why didn't they, too, just hold in their pain and suffering, in private, alone, and simply walk away into the handy-dandy shadows to silently live what was left of their lives? Why care about others who went through or are going through the same pain and suffering as someone else? Why take the time and effort to reach out to anyone, to offer godly compassion, love, understanding, information, support, or hope? You don't "have" to, right.....? So go on your way and nurse whatever pain and suffering you have in private, please? Keep it to yourselves, because we TBM's have more important things to do besides wish to see and hear it, understand it, allow it, acknowledge it, deal with its sad realities and encompassing aftereffects, and to care about it or you?

But they see no problem in saying such things to ex-Mormons. Why? Because they somehow don't think we deserve the right to think for ourselves, to express our pain, tell of our suffering, or to help others see what we have discovered to be true? That there is hope and joy and love and peace out here?

I see. Some people have small souls. They just do.

“He has filled the hungry with good things; And sent away the "rich" empty-handed. (Luke 1:53)

You said what I wanted to say, so much better. Sometimes people forget what Jesus said are the two most important commandments, which is love. Love, agape love like Jesus has does not switch on and off. It is love without expecting or wanting anything in return. Just to love.

Peter1000 · Jun 30, 2016

tickingclocker said:
They are still counted if they don't bother to take their names off the membership lists officially. Those who do make it official are counted for one year. They must be off the list for a full year before they are no longer counted. The whole "membership numbers" remains very fluid. That's how the LDS leaders justify telling their present membership that their numbers are "growing", when they know full well that they are not. Mormon churches are know to lose more members per year than most other churches. Most statistical data notes the Jehovah Witnesses for retaining the most members for the longest period of time among similar "outside the fringe" non-Christian churches.

You say: That's how the LDS leaders justify telling their present membership that their numbers are "growing", when they know full well that they are not.

This is a statement that you have no idea if it is true or not, you just throw it out there like other anti-Mormon stuff. There is no way that those leaving the church in 1 year are more than are being baptized into the church in 1 year.

Peter1000 · Jun 30, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
You said what I wanted to say, so much better. Sometimes people forget what Jesus said are the two most important commandments, which is love. Love, agape love like Jesus has does not switch on and off. It is love without expecting or wanting anything in return. Just to love.

You say: It is love without expecting or wanting anything in return. Just to love.

I agree with you for the most part, but how does John 14:15-16 fit into your love-without-expecting-or wanting-anything-in-return theology?
John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.

Mormons seem to always be bringing mainline Christians into Jesus-of-the-NT reality.

Jesus tells us that he loves us, and he will pray and give you the HS to abide with you for ever, IF you will keep Jesus's commandments.

If you decide not to keep Jesus's commandments, maybe because you read and were taught that Paul said "you are saved by grace" and not of works (keeping the commandments), then what happens?

Are Jesus and Paul in conflict?

Peter1000 · Jun 30, 2016

tickingclocker said:
Do you also wonder, like me, if Mormons would dare say the same to those moms in MADD who's children's lives were lost because of the sheer stupidity of drunk drivers? How about to John Walsh, and his successful crime show "America's Most Wanted"? Or to those who donate in their loved one's name to find the cure for cancer sooner so no one will have to go through what they saw their loved one go through, with no hope in sight? Would they dismiss so easily those who fund programs to financially help families of children battling cancer, like those brilliant, compassionate employees of MacDonald's who developed Ronald MacDonald House, a literal God-send to families of sick children? Would they say the same to former addicts who now reach out to help those struggling with addictions grasp their worth as fellow human beings? Or how about all those Christians who went from misery to joyful, eternal life after hearing through someone who cared, to believing the truth of God by faith, and now wish to share that same life-saving message of God's salvation plan with the world?

Why didn't they, too, just hold in their pain and suffering, in private, alone, and simply walk away into the handy-dandy shadows to silently live what was left of their lives? Why care about others who went through or are going through the same pain and suffering as someone else? Why take the time and effort to reach out to anyone, to offer godly compassion, love, understanding, information, support, or hope? You don't "have" to, right.....? So go on your way and nurse whatever pain and suffering you have in private, please? Keep it to yourselves, because we TBM's have more important things to do besides wish to see and hear it, understand it, allow it, acknowledge it, deal with its sad realities and encompassing aftereffects, and to care about it or you?

But they see no problem in saying such things to ex-Mormons. Why? Because they somehow don't think we deserve the right to think for ourselves, to express our pain, tell of our suffering, or to help others see what we have discovered to be true? That there is hope and joy and love and peace out here?

I see. Some people have small souls. They just do.

“He has filled the hungry with good things; And sent away the "rich" empty-handed. (Luke 1:53)

Would you be willing to make a list of the top 5 reasons you left the Mormon church. I am very interested. I have gone to the internet to see if there is a website that tells me these things and I found 1 for ex-mormons to let tell why they left, and what it would take for them to return.

I won't get into what it would take to have you return, but I am very interested in why you left. If there are some specifics, I would be interested in anything you are comfortable telling us. Thanks.

fatboys · Jun 30, 2016

T

Peter1000 said:
Would you be willing to make a list of the top 5 reasons you left the Mormon church. I am very interested. I have gone to the internet to see if there is a website that tells me these things and I found 1 for ex-mormons to let tell why they left, and what it would take for them to return.

I won't get into what it would take to have you return, but I am very interested in why you left. If there are some specifics, I would be interested in anything you are comfortable telling us. Thanks.

Many times the real reason is. Not the same reason the tell their reasons for getting out

BigDaddy4 · Jun 30, 2016

fatboys said:
T

Many times the real reason is. Not the same reason the tell their reasons for getting out

Do you have proof to back that up? Baseless assertion with no supporting evidence. Are you trying to use your peepstones? How could you possibly know that the "real" reasons are different from what they say they are for all these "many times"??

tickingclocker · Jun 30, 2016

Peter1000 said:
You say: That's how the LDS leaders justify telling their present membership that their numbers are "growing", when they know full well that they are not.

This is a statement that you have no idea if it is true or not, you just throw it out there like other anti-Mormon stuff. There is no way that those leaving the church in 1 year are more than are being baptized into the church in 1 year.

It is true that there is no way to truly know "if" the LDS is telling the truth or other statisticians are. We know many South American countries make people list their religious persuasion on their census. The LDS lists triple membership in a country, yet that country's stats show there are only 1/3 the number the LDS suggests? What's up with that? I understand that numbers are going to remain fluid at all times when it comes to membership. People move around a lot more than ever before. Others drop out of sight, yet are still listed as members far longer than they should. (My own church keeps absent members on their roles for 1 year and contacts them (if known) to ask what they wish to do with their membership. Do all churches have to do this? No. A church membership doesn't also hinge upon a person being a Christian either way.) But 10 years down the line where they have been a no-show? Anywhere? That's what happened with a friend's relative. TEN years after she stops attending, the LDS sends her literature about some LDS function? That's considered "padding the numbers" where I come from. Some would consider it as dishonest.

On the other hand, Peter, you don't know if its true or not either. You cannot prove beyond a doubt LDS numbers are accurate. From what I have experienced, I've met more ex-Mormons in my lifetime since leaving mormonism than I have active members who identify as Mormon. No LDS missionaries have ever cased my neighborhood. I know my neighbors and they all know my history. We talk, so I would know if they had been there (and skipped my house). Can anyone tell a Mormon from an ex-Mormon by looking at them? No. However, I like talking with people about the Lord, so you are more apt to learn more. I do a lot of volunteering in situations where there is time to talk about the Lord. Not a single Mormon. One longtime ex-Mormon faithfully shows up. What would you eventually have to conclude if in my shoes? Be realistic here, too. Not emotionally responsive. But you've already defended the fluidity in your mind, by claiming that there couldn't possibly be "more leaving than are being baptized". Really? How so? Because your mind is in "defense" mode? Have you ever considered asking yourself... Why is that?

If it helps, do I believe the LDS counts members who have died until they reach 110 years? No. Do I believe they count visitors or children under 8 who haven't officially joined the church through baptism? No. Do I believe they keep ex-communicated members on the roles forever? No. I don't know if they keep excommunicated members on their roles for one year, however, I do know they do so with those who submit membership withdrawal paperwork which takes a while to process. Understandable. Until the year is up, or the membership paperwork is acknowledged then the year is up, they are indeed counted. Can you see the picture now? Naturally fluid in "some" instances, but not in all. How can LDS leadership honestly claim two thirds more membership than they actually have in a country, where the population census states otherwise? Who is lying? Who is mistaken? What went "wrong"? How can it "always" be every governmental census taker and/or national bureaucracy at fault? Nobody could honestly be off that much.

I can't help it if you don't wish to explore or confront these discrepancies. To be perfectly honest with you, it doesn't matter to me how many members the LDS or any other church anywhere claims, including my own. It's never been a numbers "contest" to God, as some are forever insisting it should be. Not all members of ANY church anywhere are true believers. God alone knows who those are. Those written in the Book of Life are those who truly "count".

Paul1963 · Jun 30, 2016

Peter1000 said:
A 10 year old would tell you that you can not talk about 2 books contradicting each other if you have not read 1 of the books. Maybe a 5 year old would tell you that.

I know, your point is that you cannot read 2 contradicting books without skewing one's opinion and understanding. I am just telling you that they do not contradict each other. I have read both and are more fully aware of the majesty of Jesus Christ than you are. He has done more than you think he has for his people. You are totally unaware of things your Lord has done and that puts you behind the knowledge curve. So read it and get caught up in one of the best books written since the bible. Once you have read it then you can talk about anything you wish to, but only after you have experienced it. It is just wind until you have read it.

I have to say that I have read the BOM and it is just that a book with no scriptural basis. The Jesus that Mormons believe in is not the same as what a Christian believe in. The Bible stated beware false prophets and Joseph Smith was on for sure.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

fatboys · Jun 30, 2016

tickingclocker said:
It is true that there is no way to truly know "if" the LDS is telling the truth or other statisticians are. We know many South American countries make people list their religious persuasion on their census. The LDS lists triple membership in a country, yet that country's stats show there are only 1/3 the number the LDS suggests? What's up with that? I understand that numbers are going to remain fluid at all times when it comes to membership. People move around a lot more than ever before. Others drop out of sight, yet are still listed as members far longer than they should. (My own church keeps absent members on their roles for 1 year and contacts them (if known) to ask what they wish to do with their membership. Do all churches have to do this? No. A church membership doesn't also hinge upon a person being a Christian either way.) But 10 years down the line where they have been a no-show? Anywhere? That's what happened with a friend's relative. TEN years after she stops attending, the LDS sends her literature about some LDS function? That's considered "padding the numbers" where I come from. Some would consider it as dishonest.

On the other hand, Peter, you don't know if its true or not either. You cannot prove beyond a doubt LDS numbers are accurate. From what I have experienced, I've met more ex-Mormons in my lifetime since leaving mormonism than I have active members who identify as Mormon. No LDS missionaries have ever cased my neighborhood. I know my neighbors and they all know my history. We talk, so I would know if they had been there (and skipped my house). Can anyone tell a Mormon from an ex-Mormon by looking at them? No. However, I like talking with people about the Lord, so you are more apt to learn more. I do a lot of volunteering in situations where there is time to talk about the Lord. Not a single Mormon. One longtime ex-Mormon faithfully shows up. What would you eventually have to conclude if in my shoes? Be realistic here, too. Not emotionally responsive. But you've already defended the fluidity in your mind, by claiming that there couldn't possibly be "more leaving than are being baptized". Really? How so? Because your mind is in "defense" mode? Have you ever considered asking yourself... Why is that?

If it helps, do I believe the LDS counts members who have died until they reach 110 years? No. Do I believe they count visitors or children under 8 who haven't officially joined the church through baptism? No. Do I believe they keep ex-communicated members on the roles forever? No. I don't know if they keep excommunicated members on their roles for one year, however, I do know they do so with those who submit membership withdrawal paperwork which takes a while to process. Understandable. Until the year is up, or the membership paperwork is acknowledged then the year is up, they are indeed counted. Can you see the picture now? Naturally fluid in "some" instances, but not in all. How can LDS leadership honestly claim two thirds more membership than they actually have in a country, where the population census states otherwise? Who is lying? Who is mistaken? What went "wrong"? How can it "always" be every governmental census taker and/or national bureaucracy at fault? Nobody could honestly be off that much.

I can't help it if you don't wish to explore or confront these discrepancies. To be perfectly honest with you, it doesn't matter to me how many members the LDS or any other church anywhere claims, including my own. It's never been a numbers "contest" to God, as some are forever insisting it should be. Not all members of ANY church anywhere are true believers. God alone knows who those are. Those written in the Book of Life are those who truly "count".

The membership is living members. i know because when a person dies they are no longer part of the living membership. They are still members but they are DEAD. Lol

fatboys · Jun 30, 2016

Paul1963 said:
I have to say that I have read the BOM and it is just that a book with no scriptural basis. The Jesus that Mormons believe in is not the same as what a Christian believe in. The Bible stated beware false prophets and Joseph Smith was on for sure.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

Now we are not talking about reading a few verses but the whole book from cover to cover. I would like to ask you a question. What did you think about the part where Brigham Young rode the white buffalo into the valley. I thought it was a bit over kill.

tickingclocker · Jun 30, 2016

Peter1000 said:
You say: It is love without expecting or wanting anything in return. Just to love.

I agree with you for the most part, but how does John 14:15-16 fit into your love-without-expecting-or wanting-anything-in-return theology?
John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.

Mormons seem to always be bringing mainline Christians into Jesus-of-the-NT reality.

Jesus tells us that he loves us, and he will pray and give you the HS to abide with you for ever, IF you will keep Jesus's commandments.

If you decide not to keep Jesus's commandments, maybe because you read and were taught that Paul said "you are saved by grace" and not of works (keeping the commandments), then what happens?

Are Jesus and Paul in conflict?

No one can "keep" the commandments perfectly. The Law showed that reality to the world very clearly. No one ever has, except Jesus Christ. No one can even try to without knowing Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. How can anyone do what the Holy Spirit urges if they don't have the Holy Spirit?

Jesus and Paul are in conflict only to those who don't know the Holy Spirit:

Jesus: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” (Matt 5:17)
Paul: “For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under the Law, but under grace.” (Rom 6:14)

Jesus obviously broke the Law when He forgave the woman caught in adultery. By law, she was to have been stoned to death. So why did Jesus forgive her then and only then tell her to go and sin no more, if it weren't for grace? Because Jesus didn't use the word "grace", grace should be somehow invalid to you? Jesus demonstrated grace, yet having never sinned. Paul knew grace, despite having sinned greatly. God's love at work. No conflict there, only perfect harmony. What do you think Jesus meant by "fulfill" them? Fill what with what? Works? Or the loving grace of God?

Doesn't sound like the LDS version of God is very loving by how you describe him and how he works. He's way more contradictory than anyone I have ever heard about. He sounds way too full of faults, more... fully human than God to me. But thank you for challenging me with that, Peter. I sometimes forget how wonderfully amazing and boundless God's loving grace truly is in the hustle and bustle of daily living.

tickingclocker · Jun 30, 2016

fatboys said:
The membership is living members. i know because when a person dies they are no longer part of the living membership. They are still members but they are DEAD. Lol

You got it.

Paul1963 · Jun 30, 2016

fatboys said:
Now we are not talking about reading a few verses but the whole book from cover to cover. I would like to ask you a question. What did you think about the part where Brigham Young rode the white buffalo into the valley. I thought it was a bit over kill.

What you referred to is also known as the white horse prophecy. I think it is a nice story but that is all it is. Riding to the west to the rocky mountains. Nothing but the Bible is Scripture and God's word. Not the words of a polygamist and a false prophet.

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tickingclocker · Jun 30, 2016

Peter1000 said:
Would you be willing to make a list of the top 5 reasons you left the Mormon church. I am very interested. I have gone to the internet to see if there is a website that tells me these things and I found 1 for ex-mormons to let tell why they left, and what it would take for them to return.

I won't get into what it would take to have you return, but I am very interested in why you left. If there are some specifics, I would be interested in anything you are comfortable telling us. Thanks.

Not a chance. You and every other Mormon on here will only argue with me over every point. You simply can't remain respectful of other people's decisions because they are different from your own. Did you honestly expect me to bite that one, after watching you all on this forum? I've already shared enough for you to know enough.

ToBeLoved · Jun 30, 2016

Peter1000 said:
You say: It is love without expecting or wanting anything in return. Just to love.

I agree with you for the most part, but how does John 14:15-16 fit into your love-without-expecting-or wanting-anything-in-return theology?
John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.

Mormons seem to always be bringing mainline Christians into Jesus-of-the-NT reality.

Jesus tells us that he loves us, and he will pray and give you the HS to abide with you for ever, IF you will keep Jesus's commandments.

If you decide not to keep Jesus's commandments, maybe because you read and were taught that Paul said "you are saved by grace" and not of works (keeping the commandments), then what happens?

Are Jesus and Paul in conflict?

How many Greek words are there for love? Count

And then tell me what word is used in John that you referenced above? I can't do it all for you Peter

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ToBeLoved · Jun 30, 2016

tickingclocker said:
Not a chance. You and every other Mormon on here will only argue with me over every point. You simply can't remain respectful of other people's decisions because they are different from your own. Did you honestly expect me to bite that one, after watching you all on this forum? I've already shared enough for you to know enough.

Yup. Lead him to it let him find it himself. They dint respect it of they don't do the work. We need to stop doing it for them.

Doesn't seem to help

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tickingclocker · Jun 30, 2016

fatboys said:
T

Many times the real reason is. Not the same reason the tell their reasons for getting out

THIS attitude is why its not worth the effort. THIS is why Mormons are banned from ex-Mormon forums. Disrespect. Plain and simple.

BigDaddy4 · Jul 1, 2016

fatboys said:
Now we are not talking about reading a few verses but the whole book from cover to cover. I would like to ask you a question. What did you think about the part where Brigham Young rode the white buffalo into the valley. I thought it was a bit over kill.

Not in the BOM, but nice deception...

tickingclocker · Jul 1, 2016

Peter1000 said:
Mormons seem to always be bringing mainline Christians into Jesus-of-the-NT reality.

You really should qualify that to reflect the reality. It's more a case of "Mormons seem to "think" they seem to always be bringing mainline Christians into Jesus-of-the-NT reality".

LDS Mormonism is an enemy of the Cross and therefore not Christian

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