Psalm3704 said in post 459:
...many passages reveals a pre-tribulation rapture.
Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).
At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
The Rapture relates to the Church. The Second Coming relates to Israel.
Note that there is no such dichotomy. For the rapture will occur at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31). And the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).
For just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
The Rapture occurs for Jesus’ heavenly people, the Church (Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 12:22-24).
Regarding Philippians 3:20, there the original Greek word (politeuma: G4175) translated as "conversation" means citizenship. The citizenship of Christians is currently in heaven (Philippians 3:20) because the literal city of New Jerusalem is currently in heaven (Hebrews 12:22, Galatians 4:26), and Christians become citizens of New Jerusalem through their faith in the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28).
But in the future, New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), will descend from heaven to a new earth (Revelation 21:1-3). So the citizenship of Christians will then be on the new earth. Also, even before the time of the new earth, at Jesus' 2nd coming he will establish the kingdom of God physically on the earth, during the millennium, along with the resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). So at that time, the citizenship of Christians will also be on the earth.
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
The Rapture occurs for Jesus’ heavenly people, the Church (Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 12:22-24).
Regarding Hebrews 12:22, note that it says "ye
are come", not "ye
will come" in a future, pre-tribulation rapture.
For Hebrews 12:22, like Ephesians 2:6, can refer figuratively to our present salvation under the New Covenant (Galatians 4:24-26, Hebrews 12:22,24).
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
The Rapture is IMMINENT; it can occur at ANY moment.
Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires that.
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
There’s also added days in Daniel 12:11-12 (1290 and 1335 days), which probably relates to THE TIMING of a CELEBRATION of the Feast of Tabernacles . . .
Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' 2nd coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up; and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1); and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days; then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).
It is on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
(this might not be fully understood until THE TIME arrives, as Daniel 12:9 indicates).
Note that the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that Revelation was written down in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' 1st coming and his crucifixion for our sins.
So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' 1st coming and the writing down of Revelation (in 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what is going to happen in our future by seeing how much these 2 books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).
Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which haven't been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), whereas Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
After the Rapture, the Church will proceed to the Judgment Seat (the Bema) of Christ to receive REWARDS.
Note that some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
The gathering of “saints” AFTER the tribulation is done by ANGELS. The gathering of the Church to Jesus in the Pre-Trib Rapture is done by THE LORD HIMSELF.
Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 doesn't say that the Lord will come "
by himself", just as nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 requires that the Lord himself won't be accompanied by his angels at that time. For otherwise there could be no "voice of the archangel" heard at that time. And 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as Matthew 24:30-31. Jesus will send forth his angels at that time in order to gather together (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) all the "caught up" believers (1 Thessalonians 4:17) in myriad different places in the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Mark 13:27, Matthew 24:31) to the one place in the sky above Jerusalem where the returned Jesus will be, before he lands on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4).
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
In the “tribulation” and at the Second Coming, the WICKED are TAKEN/DESTROYED in the JUDGMENT, and the RIGHTEOUS are LEFT BEHIND to enter the Millennial Kingdom. Matthew 13:30 and Matthew 13:49-50.
Regarding Matthew 13:30, which is part of the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43), in Matthew 13:38 the good seed are the elect, and the tares are the nonelect, the human children of Satan, who can't ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 won't occur at the 2nd coming, but at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
IF believers were TRANSLATED (Raptured) at the Second Coming, and unbelievers were DESTROYED by the final tribulation judgment, there would be NO ONE LEFT IN THEIR FLESH TO POPULATE THE WORLD in the Millennium.
Those who will populate the millennium, in the sense of having offspring during the millennium, will be the unsaved people "left" alive in their mortal bodies at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40, Zechariah 14:16-19). The millennium could also be populated by the elect Jews who will get saved at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14). For they could enter the millennium (Zechariah 14:5-21) while still in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of the saved into immortal physical bodies at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) could be only for those who had become saved before the 2nd coming.
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
However, the LAST age of the Church is pictured as one of weakness and complacency--falling away from true doctrine. The spirit of Laodecia. Revelation 3:14-22.
Note that the 7 letters to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).
Similarly, the letters of the books of Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, and 2 Thessalonians were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman empire.
And note that just as nothing requires that this latter set of 7 churches represents "7 church ages", so nothing requires that the former set does.
Also, all scripture is profitable for us as Christians (2 Timothy 3:16), so we can learn lessons for our own lives today by reading all these letters.
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
Scripture declares that Elijah will come before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Malachi 4:5-6.
The coming of Elijah referred to in Malachi 4:5-6 was fulfilled by the coming of John the Baptist in the spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:17, Matthew 11:14).
Malachi 4:6 was fulfilled in the time of John the Baptist (Luke 1:17) in those Jews who heeded his acclamation regarding Jesus in John 1:29.
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
Elijah is ONE of the TWO special prophets who will minister to Israel in the near future.
That could be right.
For in the never-fulfilled Revelation 11:3-12, the 2 witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the 2 men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4, the 2 "olive trees" refer back to the 2 men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.
Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues which the 2 witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).
Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael the archangel retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' recently-dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated by God back to mortal life, like how, for example, Lazarus' recently-dead body was resuscitated by God back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could be alive at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).
The 2 witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b-3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues which they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).
They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus: G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because 2 witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
In the tribulation passage of Revelation 13:6, the antichrist is given a mouth to blaspheme God, His name, His tabernacle and THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN. Who are those who DWELL in heaven? The Raptured Church.
Those in the church who will be dwelling in heaven at the mid-tribulation time of Revelation 13:6 (and also Revelation 12:12) will be those who have died (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11) and those who are part of the 144,000 (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus; Revelation 12:5b).
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
The Church is a MYSTERY which was NOT clearly revealed in the Old Testament.
Note that the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets" (Romans 16:26).
For example, Isaiah 49:6 and Isaiah 42:6 foretold that Jesus' gospel of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), would save both Jewish and Gentile believers (Acts 26:22-23, Luke 24:46-47). The New Covenant includes Gentile believers by grafting them into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16).
Isaiah 49:6b started to be fulfilled at Jesus' 1st coming (Luke 2:32, Acts 26:23) and his sending forth of his apostles to the Gentiles (Acts 13:47, Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 26:17-18, Acts 22:21).
Also, Paul quotes 4 Old Testament verses in Romans 15:9-12 that foretold the salvation of the Gentiles (2 Samuel 22:50/Psalms 18:49, Deuteronomy 32:43, Psalms 117:1, Isaiah 11:10).
And note that God chose
Peter the apostle to be the 1st one to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles (Acts 15:7, Acts 10:34-48), to make Gentile believers partakers of the Jews' spiritual things (Romans 15:27, John 4:22b), just as Paul sometimes preached the gospel to Jews (e.g. Acts 13:16-41).
This mystery (Ephesians 3:4) is also explained in Ephesians 3:6, which means that believing Gentiles become fellowheirs with believing Israelites, and of the same body as Israel, and partakers of God's promise in Christ made to Israel.
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
After the groom receives his bride (together with her bridesmaids), the enlarged group RETURNS to the HOUSE of the GROOM’S FATHER.
Note that the scriptures themselves don't ever say or require that Jesus is going to take the church to the Father's house for the marriage. And we must not run after Jewish traditions which are not taught by the scriptures (Mark 7:13, Colossians 2:8). Just as Isaac didn't take Rebekah into his father's house, but into his mother's house (Genesis 24:67), and just as Jacob didn't take Leah or Rachel into his father's house, but married them in a faraway land (Genesis 29:23-28), so nothing requires that Jesus has to marry the church in the Father's house, instead of in the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 19:7).
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
During the tribulation, His Bride is ALREADY in heaven, and WILL RETURN to earth WITH Him at the Second Coming. Revelation 19:7-10 and Revelation 19:14. Jude 1:14-15.
In Revelation 19:7, the church is in the 1st heaven, the sky, for the wedding, and it got there at the post-tribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31).
There are 3 heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The 1st heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The 2nd heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it is beyond outer space, in the sense of it being in a higher (i.e. a 4th) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said that he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the 2 witnesses will be taken up there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).
In the 3rd heaven, there is currently a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the 3rd heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) which people ascribe to heaven. So what people think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth.
Currently, the 3rd heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where believers go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So believers go to the 3rd heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.
The earth's 3rd heaven could be high above the north pole (cf. the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV). Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can been explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's 3rd heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
The very first words out of Christ's mouth when He sat down to tell His disciples these things was this warning: "Take heed that no man deceive you." (Matthew 24:4).
Amen.
And that is why in Matthew 24:24, the original Greek doesn't say "if it were possible", in the sense of it not being possible. Instead, it simply says "if possible", meaning that false Christs and false prophets will in our future perform great miracles by the power of Satan (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), as part of Satan's intention to deceive as many of the elect as possible. The Bible nowhere says that it is impossible for any elect person to be deceived. Instead, as you pointed out, Jesus had started out in Matthew 24 by specifically warning the elect to "Take heed that no man deceive you" (Matthew 24:4), meaning that it is possible for the elect to be deceived, if they don't take heed to Jesus' warning regarding great-miracle-working false Christs and false prophets, who will appear in our future (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20).
The elect can also be deceived in other ways, whether before their salvation (Titus 3:3, Romans 7:11) or after their salvation (1 John 3:7; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Corinthians 15:33, Galatians 6:7, Ephesians 5:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:3). Paul warns the elect: "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1). The time will come when some "shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:4). For it is possible for a saved person to commit apostasy, to the ultimate loss of his salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).
The fact that a saved person can be deceived into committing apostasy doesn't mean that Satan is stronger than God, or that God would for no reason abandon a saved person, but means that the principle of the "deceivableness of unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:10, Proverbs 17:4a) applies even to a saved person.
That is, one way that a saved person could be deceived into committing apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, saved people can reach the point where they become no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and they instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).
So saved people need to be living righteously now, they need to be obedient now if they want to spiritually endure to the end during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:13). For only obedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the rock, as it were, so that they will endure the coming storm (Matthew 7:24-25). Disobedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the sand, so that they will fall away during the storm (Matthew 7:26-27). They will become part of the falling away, the apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), the departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), which will occur during the future tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Isaiah 8:21-22), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).
But what about those believers who, even though they may be obedient in their actions now, are holding so strongly mentally to the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture idea or to the mistaken mid-tribulation rapture idea that they could be unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation in its entirety?
As an analogy of this mental preparation, imagine that some kids were at a summer camp, and their counselor told them: "Tomorrow, there is going to be a long, hard hike". The kids walked away and started talking among themselves. One of them said: "Well, he didn't say that we all have to go on the hike, right?" And a 2nd kid said: "And he didn't say that we all have to go the whole distance". But a 3rd kid said: "I'm pretty sure that he meant the hike's whole distance is for all of us. He didn't say there's going to be a long, hard hike for only some of us, and a day of goofing off, or only a short, easy hike for others of us". But the 1st kid answered: "Nah, we don't have to go on that hike. I'm going fishing tomorrow". And the 2nd kid answered: "We all don't have to go the whole distance". But the 3rd kid answered: "Don't be so sure, you two. I'm going to bed early, so I'll be all fresh and ready for the whole distance of the hike".
The next day at the morning camp meeting, the 1st kid brought his fishing pole and was all set for a day of fishing. But the 3rd kid wore his sturdy hiking boots, and had a big canteen of water on his belt, and was all mentally prepared for a long day of hard hiking. The counselor then told the kids: "Okay, in a few minutes, we're all going to start on the hike I told you about, so make sure you've got everything you need". The 1st kid felt sick to his stomach when he heard that. He dropped his fishing pole and sat down on the ground and started crying like a baby. He just couldn't imagine starting on a long, hard hike after he'd been all set for a day of just sitting around fishing. But he was forced to go on the whole hike anyway, and this made him and the 2nd kid (who thought that he wouldn't have to go the whole distance) so mad at the counselor that they grumbled against him to the other kids during the hike, cursing him out as a cruel taskmaster (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21).
But the 3rd kid took the whole hike in stride (cf. Revelation 14:12, Revelation 13:10), and stuck up for the counselor the whole time, even though the 3rd kid suffered awfully from blisters during the hike. The counselor, even though he was at the head of the hiking line, could overhear what the kids said behind him. And after the hike was over, he made sure to reward the 3rd kid by giving him as a gift the counselor's own fishing pole, and by making sure the 3rd kid was assigned day after day only to the most enviable camp duties, like getting to build and light the nightly campfire, and getting to make the evening camp announcements over the camp's PA system. But the counselor made sure to assign the 1st and 2nd kids to the worst kitchen- and latrine-cleaning duties day after day.
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The future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 should be especially relevant to every Christian alive today. For the main reason that the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet . . .
That's right, although the (mistaken) 7th-trumpet-rapture idea is usually presented by pre-wrathers, rather than mid-tribulationists.
The pre-wrath idea is mistaken because, regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (to us) (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13), right when the 7th trumpet sounds. It won't be until a little later that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).
Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It is like if someone said: "It is time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 which will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).
So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be physically resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).
Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the 1st vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.
At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will physically resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.
Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
In Mark 13:28-37, the parable of the fig tree (the rebirth of Israel) is given, showing a general time and season.
Indeed. For the 2nd coming.
Similarly, Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation, and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "
immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' 1st coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.
Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34; cf. Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).
This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's 1st year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.
Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b; 1 Peter 2:9, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Psalm3704 said in post 459:
While “the word” Rapture is not found in our English translations of the Bible, it is INDEED there as “caught up” and in THE ACTION displayed IN that event!
Amen.
Just as it is okay to use the English word "Bible", even though it is not in the Bible, so it should be okay to use the English word "rapture". For it is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up" together to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).
