The Gender of God in the Bible, Ancient Judaism, and the Early Church

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
But if his origin wasn't sexual, than being Jesus' parent doesn't make him male.

It doesn't need to be sexual. The egg simply needs to be fertilized which did happen. Again, only begotten proves Jesus is literally the Fathers son.
 
Upvote 0

Deadworm

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2016
1,061
714
76
Colville, WA 99114
✟68,313.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
It's late and the anti-academic responses to my thread GIDDILY have inspired me to post this scholarly addendum to Theophilus's first use in 180 AD of "the Trinity" as "God, His Word, and His female Wisdom. This feminization of the Trinity has precedent in our 2 earliest non-canonical Gospels.

(1) The Gospel of Thomas is likely a late first century Gospel that consists of 114 sayings of Jesus. It closely resembles Q (from the German "Quelle" which means Source). Q is the sayings collection used by Matthew and Luke, but not by Mark. Q circulated west of the Jordan River, whereas the Gospel of Thomas is the sayings collection that circulated east of the Jordan and was likely composed in Edessa in eastern Syria, the reputed burial place of the apostle Thomas. Some of the previously unknown sayings of Jesus is this Gospel are considered authentic. Others are independent versions of sayings found in Q. Thus, the first part of saying 101 finds am independent parallel in Luke 14:26. But it is the 2nd part of the saying that interests me here:

<Jesus said>, "Those who do not hate their [father] and their mother as I do cannot be [disciples] of me. And those who [do not] love their [father and] their mother as I do cannot be [disciples of] me. For my mother [. . .] But my true [mother] gave me life."

Jesus' "true mother" is the Holy Spirit. Some words are bracketed to indicate defects in the papyrus.

(2) The Gospel of Hebrews, which we now only have in quoted fragments, was composed in the first decades of the 2nd century, probably in Egypt. In its version of Jesus' vision at His baptism, Jesus identifies the Holy Spirit as His Mother:

"Even so did my mother, the Holy Spirit, take me by one of my hairs and carry me away on to the great mountain Tabor. (Origen, Commentary on John 2.12.87),"
 
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,649
6,108
Massachusetts
✟583,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Wisdom is a form of knowledge and cannot be a female.
There is wisdom which is "first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy" > in James 3:17. This description matches with how Jesus is, and the Bible also does say Christ is "the wisdom of God". (in 1 Corinthians 1:24) So, I can see that there can be wisdom which is only words, but there is wisdom which is the nature and disposition of a person's character. And this description of character wisdom is also a match with love as described in 1 Corinthians 13.
Wisdom is one way in which the logos is described.
I think you mean 1 Corinthians 1:24. And I am willing to consider that Jesus in a female can make her female the really right way. And it would be wisdom in her that would be doing this.

The same wisdom who is Jesus can make a woman female the right way, and a man male the really right way . . . not only in physical structure.
 
Upvote 0

Razare

God gave me a throne
Nov 20, 2014
1,050
394
✟10,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Ah-hah :) But ones argue that this is metaphorical. But . . .

We are being changed into the image of Jesus and in Jesus "there is neither male nor female", our Apostle Paul does say, in Galatians 3:28.

In the spirit, it's true. Yet, in the spirit, there is both male and female, Jew and Gentile. It's just irrelevant. Some people might have blonde or brown hair in heaven... but it's mostly irrelevant, other than God gave us unique vessels to steward, so it reflects his glory that we're not all the same.

God made women to be the representation of wisdom in perfection before the fall... if Adam is compared against Christ, then Eve is compared against Wisdom in Proverbs. It's a worthwhile study I think.
 
Upvote 0

Razare

God gave me a throne
Nov 20, 2014
1,050
394
✟10,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Knowing true things is biblical but claiming women represented perfect wisdom etc is not true.

You didn't say true things, you said facts, it's different.

Facts include how many women someone has slept with, how many times they've sinned which God keeps no record of, ect.

Truth vs. facts are a different subset of things, as true Godly things are pure and lovely, and may exclude factual data.

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things. - Philippians 4:8

To equate facts with truth, is basically a core tenant of the world's wisdom and is often linked with materialist philosophy. So just because it is "true" does not mean we should even know it... because if it is merely a corrupt fact, it may not be pure and lovely. That fact will pass away but the truth endures forever.

Maybe this is what you knew and meant, but if not maybe you learned it. Was beneficial to me when I learned it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douglas Hendrickson

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 27, 2015
1,951
197
81
✟133,415.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
How we are in God's LOVE
Ah-hah :) how we are in God's love is what names us in His sight.

being gentle, cherishing, exhorting, comforting, charging . . . all in God's one love :):prayer::groupray::pray::clap:
How we are in God's LOVE - male with female, and female with male.

GOD'S ONE LOVE
 
Upvote 0

Douglas Hendrickson

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 27, 2015
1,951
197
81
✟133,415.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
I don't object to the idea that Jesus was God's son (though I think calling it "literal" is a misuse of the word), nor that God was his father. But if his origin wasn't sexual, than being Jesus' parent doesn't make him male.
At the very least, being Jesus made HIM male. Having real male organs, I am quite sure.

JESUS WAS REAL
JESUS IS REAL

(It seems we are really in the age when they would try to transgender God. )
 
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,565
New Jersey
✟1,147,348.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
At the very least, being Jesus made HIM male. Having real male organs, I am quite sure.

JESUS WAS REAL
JESUS IS REAL

(It seems we are really in the age when they would try to transgender God. )
Of course Jesus is male. That was never the question.
 
Upvote 0

Douglas Hendrickson

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 27, 2015
1,951
197
81
✟133,415.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Douglas Hendrickson said:
At the very least, being Jesus made HIM male. Having real male organs, I am quite sure.

JESUS WAS REAL
JESUS IS REAL


(It seems we are really in the age when they would try to transgender God. )
Of course Jesus is male. That was never the question.
That was meant to be read: "being Jesus made God male" (at the very least).
"Jesus made Jesus male" would be a funny claim (even for me) to make. So what you say was never the answer, or at the very best only a small part of the answer.

If you are claiming Jesus is and was NOT God, then I suspect that is is a claim for elsewhere.

JESUS IS AND WAS GOD
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,565
New Jersey
✟1,147,348.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
"being Jesus made God male" (at the very least).
Because of the Incarnation we can say that God was born, died, etc, so in that sense God is male. But there's a kind of indirectness to that. One would not normally say that God is Jewish, or God’s home town is Nazareth, except in this special context.

Sure, if you’re referring to the Incarnation, then God is male. But I doubt that’s what people participating in this discussion are talking about. I believe most of us are asking about the attributes associated with the divine nature, not the human one.
 
Upvote 0

Douglas Hendrickson

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 27, 2015
1,951
197
81
✟133,415.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Because of the Incarnation we can say that God was born, died, etc, so in that sense God is male. But there's a kind of indirectness to that. One would not normally say that God is Jewish, or God’s home town is Nazareth, except in this special context.

Sure, if you’re referring to the Incarnation, then God is male. But I doubt that’s what people participating in this discussion are talking about. I believe most of us are asking about the attributes associated with the divine nature, not the human one.
Good point, much appreciated!

In considering the Divine nature, beyond being the God of Creation we can point to the God of loving, LOVE, that God is Love. It is there I particularly see gender playing a role: if God is understood to be male, that yields the Spirit of God being toward the female or Other. The whole Loving Ball, in its truth.

Attraction between the sexes is quite instrumental in Holy Spirit working, I believe.

God being male is not to deny the female sex, but to see God's Love pointed in that direction, and being reciprocated.

GOD IS LOVE
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Deadworm

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2016
1,061
714
76
Colville, WA 99114
✟68,313.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Feminine biblical imagery for God and Jesus freezes conservatives like Bambi in the headlights, but it is irrefutably abundant and significant. Though my case does not need it, some might find it helpful to ground this feminine imagery in the foundational biblical teaching about God's nature found in Moses' call in the Burning Bush:

"Moses said to God: "If I come to the Israelites...and they ask me, "What is His name?" what shall I say to them?" God said to Moses: "I will be what I will be (or in the same sense, "I am who I am")." He said further: " Thus you shall say to the Israelites, I am has sent me to you (Exodus 3:13-14).'"

The NRSV notes: The future tense is modeled in the introduction of the Yahweh name in Exodus 33:19: "I will proclaim the name Yahweh, and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious and I will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."

God's reply to Moses has 3 implications :
(1) God continues His habit of being evasive about His name, just as God is similarly evasive about His name to Jacob in Genesis 32:29 and to Samson's parents in Judges 13:18-19.

(2) God wants to be known by God's gracious acts, not by a name, which ancient Semites would mistakenly interpret as an adequate expression of God's essence.
For example, ancient Israelites, like sexist posters on this thread, are determined commit idolatry by creating a graven image of God as a male in their minds. God refutes this crude anthropomorphism in Exodus 3:14, Isaiah 55:8-9. and especially Numbers 23:7, which freaks our posters out, and so, needs to be quoted in full with a literal translation:

"God is not male (Hebrew: ish), with the result that He lies, nor a mortal (Hebrew: adam = human) with the result that he changes His mind."

God first denies that God is male because of the Israelite patriarchal bias and then extends this to a denial that God is human.

(3) God will be whatever God will be to Israelites, but God reserves the right to be whatever God will be to peoples of different cultures and religions:

"Are you not like the Ethiopians to me, O people of Israel? says the Lord. Did I not bring Israel up from the land of Egypt and the Philistines from Caphtor and the
Arameans from Kir (Amos (9:7)?"

In Amos, God is judging people for neglecting social justice and for taking their status as God's chosen people for granted. To sober them up, God lifts the veil on the general revelation that supplements God's special revelation to Israel: God revealed
Godself to pagans and guided them to their divinely appointed lands just as surely as God did so for Israel! Similarly, the Greeks worshiped the very real "unknown God," and, as a result, God overlooked their prior ignorance (Acts 17:30) and pagans can be saved apart from formal profession of faith in Christ (Romans 2:7)! With our fuller revelation in Christ, we must still globally spread His teaching (Matthew 28:16-20).

We must now more fully assess the actual purpose of the abundant feminine God imagery in Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Douglas Hendrickson

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 27, 2015
1,951
197
81
✟133,415.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Feminine biblical imagery for God and Jesus freezes conservatives like Bambi in the headlights, but it is irrefutably abundant and significant. Though my case does not need it, some might find it helpful to ground this feminine imagery in the foundational biblical teaching about God's nature found in Moses' call in the Burning Bush:

"Moses said to God: "If I come to the Israelites...and they ask me, "What is His name?" what shall I say to them?" God said to Moses: "I will be what I will be (or in the same sense, "I am who I am")." He said further: " Thus you shall say to the Israelites, I am has sent me to you (Exodus 3:13-14).'"

The NRSV notes: The future tense is modeled in the introduction of the Yahweh name in Exodus 33:19: "I will proclaim the name Yahweh, and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious and I will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."

God's reply to Moses has 3 implications :
(1) God continues His habit of being evasive about His name, just as God is similarly evasive about His name to Jacob in Genesis 32:29 and to Samson's parents in Judges 13:18-19.

(2) God wants to be known by God's gracious acts, not by a name, which ancient Semites would mistakenly interpret as an adequate expression of God's essence.
For example, ancient Israelites, like sexist posters on this thread, are determined commit idolatry by creating a graven image of God as a male in their minds. God refutes this crude anthropomorphism in Exodus 3:14, Isaiah 55:8-9. and especially Numbers 23:7, which freaks our posters out, and so, needs to be quoted in full with a literal translation:

"God is not male (Hebrew: ish), with the result that He lies, nor a mortal (Hebrew: adam = human) with the result that he changes His mind."

God first denies that God is male because of the Israelite patriarchal bias and then extends this to a denial that God is human.

(3) God will be whatever God will be to Israelites, but God reserves the right to be whatever God will be to peoples of different cultures and religions:

"Are you not like the Ethiopians to me, O people of Israel? says the Lord. Did I not bring Israel up from the land of Egypt and the Philistines from Caphtor and the
Arameans from Kir (Amos (9:7)?"

In Amos, God is judging people for neglecting social justice and for taking their status as God's chosen people for granted. To sober them up, God lifts the veil on the general revelation that supplements God's special revelation to Israel: God revealed
Godself to pagans and guided them to their divinely appointed lands just as surely as God did so for Israel! Similarly, the Greeks worshiped the very real "unknown God," and, as a result, God overlooked their prior ignorance (Acts 17:30) and pagans can be saved apart from formal profession of faith in Christ (Romans 2:7)! With our fuller revelation in Christ, we must still globally spread His teaching (Matthew 28:16-20).

We must now more fully assess the actual purpose of the abundant feminine God imagery in Scripture.
Your Amos reference is interesting, in that a couple of verses before we find (said by "the Lord" - not "Lordess" - it appears): "... the Lord God of hosts is he that toucheth the land ..." and "It is he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and has founded his troops in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea ..." And "THE LORD is his name."

You say, " (1) God continues His habit of being evasive about His name, just as God is similarly evasive about His name..." (bold mine). Showing you even get it right occasionally. (Not to mention the repetition.)

IS evasiveness (about his name) is NOT any "abundant feminine God imagery," at all.

Although it may not always make the best sense, I find it interesting to think that "the name of God" (is "God" in the most obvious sense) is perhaps his preferred noun as applied to or being indicative of WOMAN. I do not know any (ancient) Hebrew vernacular, but if God likes a certain C word that points to Thee truth of reality, it is not surprising if ist scribes might be a bit coy about using it, and instead say "the name of God."

GOD LOVETH WOMEN AND WOMANHOOD
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Deadworm

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2016
1,061
714
76
Colville, WA 99114
✟68,313.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
The Bible specifically denies that God is literally a male:
Our fundamentalist friends ignore the gender terminology in texts that deny God's humanity. The Hebrew word "ish" specifically means "male" and "adam" can mean "human," though the context might give it the meaning "man."

(1) "God is NOT A MALE ("ish"), that He should lie or a human (Hebrew: "adam") that He should change His mind (1 Samuel 15:29)."

Our fundamentalists butcher the grammar of this verse by ignoring the result clause and reading it as if it said, "God is not a lying male." But the grammar requires the understanding that God is not a male, with the result that God can't lie. The 2nd half of the verse generalizes that insight, adding that God is not even human, with the result that God does not change His mind.

(2) "He is not a man (Hebrew: "adam"), that he should have regret (1 Samuel 15:29)." Here make pronoun favors the translation "man," though "adam" cam also mean "human."

Let's do something that our fundamentalist posters haven't done; let's ask God about His gender. God's answer?

(3) "I am God and NOT A MALE (Hebrew: "ish"), the Holy One in your midst (Hosea 11:9)." Thank you, God for clearing that up.

God's denial makes sense of two texts:
(4) Both males and females are created in God's image (Genesis 1;27-28). So God is neither gender.

(5) God does not even think like a man--or like a woman for that matter: "My thoughts are not your thoughts, not are my ways your ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are above the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:7-8)"
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0