Rapture timing

Revealing Times

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Regarding "the Lord's dispensation of grace", this is sometimes referred to by people as "the present age". But regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

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Regarding "Once over in a split second", note that the only thing that will happen in the twinkling of an eye at Jesus' 2nd coming will be the resurrection (if dead) and the changing (if alive) of obedient believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Other aspects of the 2nd coming will occur before and after that. The first thing visible to occur at the 2nd coming will be the light from the sun and moon temporarily being blocked from reaching the surface of the earth (Matthew 24:29). And there will be a meteorite shower, falling "stars" (Matthew 24:29). Then the sign of Jesus (possibly the Cross) will appear in the sky and the world will mourn when it realizes that the true Jesus is coming back (Matthew 24:30). Then the world will see Jesus in the clouds of the sky (Matthew 24:30). And the people of the world will wail (Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus is coming back in wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

But before the wrath of the 2nd coming begins (Revelation 19:15-21), all the souls of the dead in Christ (of all times), who will all come back with him from the 3rd heaven at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), will descend to the earth where their graves are and their bodies will be physically resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6). Then they and all those in Christ who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured (caught up together, gathered together) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).
Basically the same ole same ole hey ? There will be a Rapture of the Church, and the Church will not go through the Tribulation. I did my take a lot quicker.

I posted about the Feasts being reflective of the the Christ dying and then the Pentecost............Followed by the coming Fall Feasts. I think it shows the same pause as Daniel's 70 week. I already know the Post Trib views.
 
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Riberra

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When you make a bold statement claiming you can calculate the number of Christian martyred souls kept under the altar since the opening of the 5th seal mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11, I want to know how you can come up with the number.

Or are your words just all hype and a bunch of poo-poos?
Show us the post where i have said that it is possible to crunch the exact number of Christian martyred souls that John saw under the altar of God in Heaven mentionned at the opening of the 5th seal ?...John tell us that their numbers will continue to grown untill that God decide that the time is come to advenge their blood Revelation 6:9-11.

My point was that there is probably more souls of dead believers in Heaven that the total numbers of Christians alive right now.... and i have provided a study that confirmed my point.
See pdf paper.:Note: that study include the estimated total number of Christians believers who have walked on the Earth since 30 AD to year 2,000 AD which is 8,3 billion.The estimation of Christians alive today in year 2016 is about 2 billions.That mean that 6,3 billions souls of dead Christians are already in Heaven without a rapture.When John talk about a crowd to large to number that he saw before the throne of God in Heaven the probability is on the side that he saw the souls of dead Christians believers in Heaven and that they have not gone to heaven via a rapture when they were still alive.

http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/wct_martyrs_extract.pdf

The BULK of the Church is already in Heaven, these are the souls of ALL the dead Christians believers since 2,000 years.....Your are the one claiming that only the souls of the Christians martyrs that will die during the tribulation will go the Heaven

Riberra, the weapons of war used during the 1st half of the trumpet judgements will be the same used during the 2nd half of the vial judgement. Things won't change in a few years. Tanks, helicopters, jets, ships, rockets, missiles and nukes will be used throughout the 7 years of the tribulation.

If you believe actual locusts is used during the trumpets judgement, locusts will also be used during the vials.
So how will locusts kill 1/3 of mankind?
Go back and read Revelation 9 and you will discover that the " locusts" will not kill 1/3 of mankind.


You should learn what Jesus said in Matthew 24:15-22. It's not about (Salvation) or the mark of the beast.
If based on your claims that nearly everybody is about to be killed by a nuclear war during the tribulation before the return of Jesus how do you explain that there will be millions of soldiers that will still be alive for the Armageddon battle ?
If as you claim ,nearly all humans will be killed by a total nuclear war during the tribulation,tell us who are those people of ALL the tribes of the Earth well alive that will mourn when they will see Jesus Coming in the Clouds in Glory mentioned in Matthew 24:30 ?
 
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Hazrus

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Ebedmelech said:

Do you believe the dead in Christ from past generations will receive a resurrected literal eternal body when Jesus returns?

I do not believe Revelation is chronological.

What is that based on? Rev 7:14 identifies them as “they which came out of great tribulation” not all of the redeemed of God.


If the 144,000 is a representation of a larger group why does scripture break it down for us as 12,000 from each of the listed tribes?
While i'm not Ebedmelech, I would like to answer these questions as a fellow Amill.

1. Yes I believe the dead in Christ will receive a literal eternal body; it will not be the same body as before. Honestly though I don't think the scriptures are completely clear on this.

2. Great. I don't believe it is chronological either.

3. If you believe we are in the great tribulation now, as I do, it fits like a glove.

4. It's in the numbering. It is not consistent with the great OT lists of Israel, eg. Genesis 49 or Deuteronomy 33. There's no Dan, Judah is 1st over Ruben, Manasseh is included, etc etc. Remember that 12 is the symbol of completeness; this is saying that the entire group is present.
Remember also that John hears the 144k, but sees a great multitude. To me this indicates that they are one and the same thing.
 
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ebedmelech

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Ebedmelech said:

Do you get what Jesus is saying there? I ask because many times I read the verse before I really caught what it's saying.

One has to come in life in Christ FIRST if they're going to live forever. That is the spiritual resurrection which means EVEN IF WE DIE...WE LIVE.

Just as there are two deaths which are physical and spiritual there are two resurrections (physical and spiritual). The only difference is if one is in Christ they die ONCE. Those without Christ die TWICE...(for the most part). Just as not all Christians will die because some will be alive when Christ returns, not all of the spiritually dead will die twice as some will be alive when Christ returns.

Do you believe the dead in Christ from past generations will receive a resurrected literal eternal body when Jesus returns?
Absolutely! The dead in Christ are in soul existence right now. This is what Paul means in 1 Corinthians 15:53:
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
The problem comes here when many fail to realize Revelation is not chronological.

I do not believe Revelation is chronological.
That is a good thing!
Revelation 7:9 is John's vision of ALL OF THE REDEEMED OF GOD.

What is that based on? Rev 7:14 identifies them as “they which came out of great tribulation” not all of the redeemed of God.
It's based on the passage just as it says. You've pointed it out. All of them didn't come out of the great tribulation. The first group is INNUMERABLE...those the elders asked john about did.

That's what the 144,000 represents. John HEARD them numbered (he didn't see anything).

It was when John turned SEE the great multitude which is from every nation. That's what the 144,000 is. That number INCLUDES those who were martyred, they are a special group John saw that came out of the great tribulation. All of the 144,000 did not go through it.

If the 144,000 is a representation of a larger group why does scripture break it down for us as 12,000 from each of the listed tribes?
That is the pattern of John's visions...he hears and then he turns to look. Just as when each seal is opened in chapter 6. He hears and then he looks to see what that he heard is. It's all through Revelation. There are plenty of examples of it happening throughout Revelation.
 
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Psalm3704 quoted a website in post 437:

It is important to recognize that Jesus’ teaching in this [Olivet] discourse is in reference to Israel and not the Church.

Note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jews or Gentiles), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3-4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those (not in hiding) who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

Psalm3704 quoted a website in post 437:

The rapture of the Church is found in John 14:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Note that there is no pre-tribulation-rapture idea in those passages, not even in John 14:2-3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation-rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

Psalm3704 quoted a website in post 437:

Jesus then tells the disciples that “not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down” (verse 2). This prophecy was literally fulfilled in A.D. 70 when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem.

Actually, the end of the 2nd temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

Psalm3704 quoted a website in post 437:

This [70 AD] destruction of Jerusalem was but a foreshadowing of what is yet to come.

That could be right, insofar as Ezekiel 21:27a could include the meaning that Jerusalem (Ezekiel 21:22) must be overturned, in the sense of completely destroyed, 3 separate times: once in 586 BC (by the Babylonians), then again in 70 AD (by the Romans), and then again at some point in our future (by the Antichrist), right before Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Ezekiel 21:27b).

Also, compare the idea of some people that Amos 9:15 applies to the reestablishment of Israel in 1948 AD, even though Amos 9:15 could refer to what will happen only at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 9:7, Amos 9:11). For Amos 9:14-15 was spoken before the taking of the northern kingdom of Israel into captivity (Amos 8:14, Amos 5:27) by the Assyrians in 722 BC. And so Amos 9:14-15 was spoken before the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into captivity by the Babylonians in 586 BC. But Amos 9:14-15 didn't apply to the post-Babylonian-Captivity restoration of the Jews to their land in 538 BC, for that restoration was subsequently destroyed by a Roman-empire army in 70 AD. So Amos 9:14-15 doesn't necessarily apply to the subsequent restoration of the Jews to their land in 1948 AD either. This restoration could be destroyed by the Baathists in a future war (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. Jesus will restore the Davidic kingdom of Israel (Luke 1:32b-33, Isaiah 9:7, Amos 9:11) at his 2nd coming (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Also, compare how the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the literal, fruitless fig tree (Matthew 21:19) foreshadowed his curse on the part of Old Covenant Israel which rejected him (Matthew 21:43), for a fig tree can represent Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9). And the Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at his 1st coming, insofar as it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman army.

But Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

Psalm3704 quoted a website in post 437:

Revelation 6:2 speaks of a rider on a white horse, which refers to a false messiah called elsewhere the Antichrist and the Beast.

Regarding the 1st seal's horseman, on the white horse (Revelation 6:1-2), that could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus physically: Acts 3:21) going forth to all nations and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (cf. John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all nations during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow (Revelation 6:2) is a weapon that is able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).

Psalm3704 quoted a website in post 437:

Revelation 6:2 speaks of a rider on a white horse, which refers to a false messiah called elsewhere the Antichrist and the Beast.

Regarding "a false messiah called elsewhere the Antichrist", note that "anti"-Christ can simply refer to anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in any "opponent of the Messiah" (Strong's Greek Dictionary, Word #500: antichristos), as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the 1st century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7).

And note that nothing requires that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will ever claim to be the Messiah/Christ. For his antichrist denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him as a mortal-flesh human (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ. Instead, the non-mortal-flesh Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) could be the false Christ (i.e. the "Lucifer" Christ, and not the "Jesus" Christ: 1 John 2:22) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

But none of this means that there won't also be multiple, human false Christs who will arise during the tribulation (Matthew 24:24), including one who will be an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Christ/Messiah. For shortly after the start of the tribulation, the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a) in Israel, promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers that they can keep for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a) a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

That is, in Daniel 9:26, the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). But a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are militarily defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So this future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false "Messiah" and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).
 
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Psalm3704

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Aaaaahhhh, now that you have been proven wrong by the scriptures, you resort to the logical fallacy.

Fallacy: Straw Man The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

You make no sense at all. How could it be fallacy when I'm telling you the prophet Zechariah was not at the mount of Olives recording the discourse given by Jesus? This was what I said:

"Just because Zechariah was inspired and wrote prophecies about the second coming, it doesn't mean he wrote the Olivet Discourse. Christ gave the sermon on Mount of Olives and Matthew, Mark and Luke were there to record what He said.

Zechariah was not there."

Read this. Just because Zechariah was inspired and wrote prophecies about the second coming, it doesn't mean he wrote the Olivet Discourse. Christ gave the sermon on Mount of Olives and Matthew, Mark and Luke were there to record what He said.

Zechariah was not there.
Case Closed.

So are telling us Zechariah was actually at the Mount of Olives?

Fallacy: Straw Man The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:
1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

This makes no sense either.

~ If you're calling me person A, than you as person B presents position Y which is a distorted version of X.

~ If you're calling me person B, than you as person A has position X which is false/incorrect/flawed.

See how you just don't make any sense? You're telling us either way you're wrong.

Your getting desperate!

I'm not the one who just embarrassed myself.

You sound like Hamas whenever they get into a war with Israel. Israel always kicks their butt and to avoid embarrassment they claim victory at the end.









.
 
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Psalm3704

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Show us the post where i have said that it is possible to crunch the exact number of Christian martyred souls that John saw under the altar of God in Heaven mentionned at the opening of the 5th seal ?...John tell us that their numbers will continue to grown untill that God decide that the time is come to advenge their blood Revelation 6:9-11.

My point was that there is probably more souls of dead believers in Heaven that the total numbers of Christians alive right now.... and i have provided a study that confirmed my point.
See pdf paper.:Note: that study include the estimated total number of Christians believers who have walked on the Earth since 30 AD to year 2,000 AD which is 8,3 billion.The estimation of Christians alive today in year 2016 is about 2 billions.That mean that 6,3 billions souls of dead Christians are already in Heaven without a rapture.When John talk about a crowd to large to number that he saw before the throne of God in Heaven the probability is on the side that he saw the souls of dead Christians believers in Heaven and that they have not gone to heaven via a rapture when they were still alive.

http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/wct_martyrs_extract.pdf

The BULK of the Church is already in Heaven, these are the souls of ALL the dead Christians believers since 2,000 years.....Your are the one claiming that only the souls of the Christians martyrs that will die during the tribulation will go the Heaven

Riberra, stop being so dumb. You know I've been asking for the number of Christian martyred souls kept under the altar since the opening of the 5th seal mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11. I've probably asked more than 5 times now.

Giving me the number of dead Christian souls the last 2000 years is not the answer nor what I've been asking. Just admit it, you've been wrong, a big pile of poo-poo-pee-doo!

If based on your claims that nearly everybody is about to be killed by a nuclear war during the tribulation before the return of Jesus how do you explain that there will be millions of soldiers that will still be alive for the Armageddon battle ?
If as you claim ,nearly all humans will be killed by a total nuclear war during the tribulation,tell us who are those people of ALL the tribes of the Earth well alive that will mourn when they will see Jesus Coming in the Clouds in Glory mentioned in Matthew 24:30 ?

Oh this is an easy answer. Honestly you really don't know?

But before I reveal how this happens, first you explain to me how you were able to derive at such conclusion that I've claimed to have said what you've accused me of saying when all I've said was this:

"You should learn what Jesus said in Matthew 24:15-22. It's not about (Salvation) or the mark of the beast."

You should learn what Jesus said in Matthew 24:15-22. It's not about (Salvation) or the mark of the beast.

Riberra, you're putting your foot in your mouth right now. Might even taste like poo-poo-pee-doo if you're not careful where you walk.











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Psalm3704

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Note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24.

Matthew 16 and Matthew 18 are not the Olivet Discourse. And Matthew 24 is absolutely about Israel.

Bible2, where is the holy place and where is Judea? I can assure you they are not in New York city.

Matthew 24:15-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place”(whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


Note that there is no pre-tribulation-rapture idea in those passages

Jesus Christ told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Noah - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of those days by explicitly stating that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood came (Matthew 24:37-39). "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." - Matthew 24:39.

To emphasize this point, Jesus Christ repeated this detailed account in Luke 17:26, recording the detail that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood, and then "the flood came" (Luke 17:26-27). "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." - Luke 17:30

Jesus Christ also told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Lot - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of that event by explicitly stating that Lot "went out of Sodom" before God's judgment rained down (Luke 17:28-29). "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." -Luke 17:30

God reminds us of these individuals again, and tells us that it is God's nature to deliver believers before divine judgment: Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (II Pet. 2:5-9). Note that Peter (who penned the book of Peter) was present when Christ told it to His disciples the first time.

Right after that, He tells them about Noah and Lot, He further emphasizes this and describes 2-3 examples (Matthew 24:40-41, Luke 17:34-36) of how some people will be taken, and some will be left.

Right after that, He warns them "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." If Christ returns at any other time than before the Tribulation, then you would know (to the day) when to expect Him. The fact that He is coming before is what catches people off guard.

Right after that, He tells them of the metaphor of the unannounced thief (Matthew 24:43-44), and told His disciples His coming would be in the same manner.

Right after that, He uses the illustration of the unfaithful servant who was caught off-guard by his master's unannounced return (Matthew 24:45-51).

Right after that, He tells them the parable of the ten virgins, and how some were caught unprepared for the bridegroom's unannounced return (Matthew 25:1-12).

Right after that, He warns them a second time, "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." - Matthew 25:13.

Right after that, He tells them of the parable of the talents, and a servant who was caught unprepared for his master's return (Matthew 25:14-30).

Here, in one sitting, Jesus Christ plainly explains the pattern of His return to a group of fishermen, and to make absolutely sure that they understand what He is saying, He lays out 2 biographical patterns, 2 pattern parables, and 2 explicit warnings about these pattern (with additional implied warnings woven throughout); the fact that He repeated something they needed to know six times in one sitting should tell us that He wants us to be absolutely clear about it!
Any teaching that ignores, contradicts, or reverses this clearly spelled-out pattern will end up ignoring and contradicting other Scripture as well, leading to confusion and deception. Do not hold to any prophetic pattern that goes against Christ's given pattern. The very first words out of Christ's mouth when He sat down to tell His disciples these things was this warning: "Take heed that no man deceive you." (Matthew 24:4).

The church is not appointed to wrath (Romans 5:9, I Thess.1:9-10; I Thess. 5:9). The church cannot enter "the great day of his wrath" (Rev. 6:17). Thirteen times in Revelation, the time of the Tribulation is described as a time of wrath (Rev. 6:16, Rev. 6:17, Rev. 11:18, Rev. 12:12, Rev. 14:8, Rev. 14:10, Rev. 14:19, Rev. 15:1, Rev. 15:7,Rev. 16:1, Rev. 16:19, Rev. 18:3, Rev. 19:15).

No NT tribulation passage mentions the church (Matthew 13:30, 39-42,48-50; 24:15-31; I Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; II Thess. 2:1-11, Rev. 4-18). Nor is the translation (rapture) of the church ever mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming after the tribulation.

Historical concept of imminency surrounding Christ's return. From a historical concept, the doctrine is not new, just more clearly classified and understood.

Pre-Trib allows literal interpretation of OT & NT. Post-trib must use some symbols or analogies.

Pre-Trib has a clear distinguishing between Israel and the church. Post-Trib has "replacement theology"

Pre-Trib gives distinction between Great Tribulation and tribulation in general. Acts 14:22 - the word tribulation is afflictions, not the time of God's wrath. Two different greek words.

Great Tribulation is for Israel's restoration, not to prepare the church for Glory (Deut. 4:29-30, Jeremiah 30:4-11 - "...even in the latter days..." "correct thee")

Pre-trib is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.

The Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11. Pre-trib teaches that it starts in ch. 6.

Mid-trib teaches that the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11, the last of trumpet I Cor. 15:52, and the trumpet of Matt. 24:31 are the same event; but, they are three distinct events. They are not connected.

Pre-trib maintains the unity of the 70 weeks. Post & mid destroy the unity of the 70 weeks and confuse Israel's program with that of the church.

The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (I Thess. 5:1-9).

The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from "the hour of temptation."Rev. 3:10

After translation, believers go to the Father's House in heaven (John 14:3).

Pre-trib does not divide the Body of Christ at the Rapture on a work principle (partial rapture). It is the final climatic aspect of salvation by grace.

All, not part, of the church will be raptured. (I Cor. 15:51-52, I Thess. 4:17).

The remnant of the Tribulation are Israelites, not members of the church.

Pre-trib does not confuse terms like 'elect' and 'saints' (saved of all ages). "Church" & "those in Christ" are those saved before Rapture. The "elect" and "saints" after the Rapture are not part of the Bride of Christ, the church.

The church is to look for signs of His coming. Believers in Tribulation are to look for signs.

Holy Spirit, as a restrainer, is removed before the lawless one dominates the Tribulation. II Thess. 2:6-8. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint (Holy Spirit) is lifted. Believers (Spirit-in dwelt) are translated.

II Cor. 5:10 records all believers before the judgment seat of Christ in Heaven - an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the Second Coming of Christ to earth.

The 24 elders (Rev. 4:4-11) as reps of the church would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation. They cannot be in three spots at the same time if post-trib.

The wedding feast takes place before the Second Coming. Rev. 19:7-10.

Tribulations saints are not raptured at the second coming, but remain and have children (Isa. 65:20-25) and enter into the Millennium Kingdom.

The judgment of the Gentiles following the second coming (Matt. 25:31-46) is on natural bodies - which would have been impossible if they were translated at the Second Coming.

If the Rapture took place at the Second Coming, there would be no need to separate the sheep from the goats. (Matt. 25:31)

The coming of Christ is imminent. If it waited on the Tribulation, it would not be imminent.

The exhortation to be comforted (I Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pre-tribulational view (contradicted by most post-tribulation). There is no comfort in having to suffer through the Tribulation and its horrors.

Believers are to look for signs of His coming, not signs of the Tribulation. Titus 2:13.

The exhortation to purify yourself in light of His coming has most significance if His coming is imminent. I John 3:2-3.

Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it.

The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.

None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).

None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30; 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18).

In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.

The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation
11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.

The unity of Daniel’s seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel’s seventieth week and confuse Israel’s program with that of the church.

The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation.

The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter “the great day of their wrath” (Rev. 6:17).

The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation.

The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth” (Rev. 3:10).

It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9).

At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father’s house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach.

Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.

The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17).

As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.

The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists.

The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only.

The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pretribulational view and is especially contradicted by most posttribulationists.

The exhortation to look for “the glorious appearing” of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs.

The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord’s return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3).

The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the Tribulation are directed to look for signs.

The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted.

The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before “the lawless one,” who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).

If the expression “except there come a falling away first” (KJV) is translated literally, “except the “departure” come first,” it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.

According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation.

The coming of Christ for His bride must take place before the Second Coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10).

Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach.

The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies. This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming.

If the translation took place in connection with the Second Coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31).

The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38), which occurs subsequent to the Second Coming, indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the Second Coming and would be unnecessary if the saved had previously been separated from the unsaved by translation.

At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.

At the time of the Rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the Second Coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5).

At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation.

At the time of the Rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the Second Coming the world is judged and righteousness is established on the earth.

The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the Second Coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the Tribulation.

The Rapture is described as imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by definite signs.

The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the Second Coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments.

The Rapture concerns only the saved, while the Second Coming deals with both saved and unsaved.

At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.

No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming.

No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.

Instead of watching for Jesus to come in the air, instead of anticipating His arrival with joy, people watch for the APPEARANCE of the ANTICHRIST, for signs, for wars, and for the unfolding of many other prophecies FIRST. This DESTROYS imminence.

Scripture declare that no one KNOWS the day or the hour of Jesus’ appearance. This HAS TO MEAN the Rapture His Church! If it were meant for the time AFTER the tribulation, it does NOT make sense. The days and hours of the tribulation CAN BE COUNTED and KNOWN, according the prophecy of Daniel 9:27! EXACT years, months and days are GIVEN--and anyone WHO SEES the antichrist make the “peace covenant” with Israel can BEGIN counting--ARRIVING at the year, month, and day when Jesus’ feet will touch the earth. Should the Church be required to enter the tribulation, we’d calculate the day and the hour--which is the opposite NOT KNOWING! The scriptures MUST show TWO DIFFERENT events!

We see many instances where Jesus exhorted His people to watch, emphasizing NOT KNOWING the day or the hour. In Matthew 24:42-47, the Goodman of the house is to be WATCHING.

In Mark 13:28-37, the parable of the fig tree (the rebirth of Israel) is given, showing a general time and season. Jesus again exhorted His people to be ready and WATCHING, because they do NOT know the day or the hour when He will come.

In Luke 21:29-36, the parable of the fig tree is repeated, with a parallel warning, to be ready and WATCHING, because no one KNOWS the day or hour (when Jesus will appear to Rapture His true Church).

In Matt 24:48-51, the evil servant did NOT watch. He said, “the Lord DELAYS His coming.” Thinking there’s plenty of time BEFORE the Lord appears, the evil servant began beating his fellow servants, and fulfilling the LUSTS of his flesh, eating and drinking with the drunken. Jesus will come when that evil servant is NOT looking for him, NOT expecting His imminent arrival, in an hour when the servant is NOT AWARE--NOT WATCHING! The Lord will cut that servant asunder--in judgment. People who do NOT EXPECT the Lord’s IMMINENT coming GROW LAX in keeping guard over their lives, and are NOT ready--because they think there’s still plenty of time.

Following the early Church councils (where sound Christian doctrine was upheld), came a time of decline. Many doctrines that mainline denominations support are based on heresies proposed by Augustine--no millennium, the “spiritualization” and “allegorical” methods of interpretation. IMMINENCE was lost. And a Church which was NOT EXPECTING the Lord’s SOON RETURN became lax in sharing the Gospel, and drifted into many areas of error. (Another fact of history.)

Rapture is from the Latin “rapere” or “rapturo” which is INDEED found in the Latin Vulgate Version of the Bible. It’s from this Latin root that we get our English word “raptor.” A raptor (eagle, osprey, hawk, owl) swoops down from above to suddenly “snatch up” its dinner with force. In the rapture, Jesus will descend into the air and suddenly “snatch up” His Church to Himself with THE FORCE of His words, “Come up here” (which is seen in Revelation 4:1).

The Greek word for the Rapture is “harpazo” which is translated as “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The literal definition of “harpazo” is to catch up and away, to pluck up, to take by force.

While “the word” Rapture is not found in our English translations of the Bible, it is INDEED there as “caught up” and in THE ACTION displayed IN that event!

The famous Rapture scriptures are these: the promise of it in John 14:1-3, the Old Testament description of it in Isaiah 26:19-20, Paul’s teachings upon it in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8.

The ACTIONS shown in Revelation 4:1 is a TYPE of the Rapture, present in the DISPLAYED ACTION, and IN the SEQUENCE of events--(occurring AFTER the testimony of the SEVEN CHURCHES in Revelation 2:1-29 and Revelation 3:1-22). “After” is DECLARED TWICE in Revelation 4:1 --“After these things” and “hereafter.” AFTER what things? AFTER the ministry of the SEVEN CHURCHES. When the “plain sense” makes “perfect sense” seek “no other sense.”

Israel, and the Jewish Pharisees, at the time of Jesus did NOT recognize their promised Messiah when Jesus presented Himself to them. Why? They didn’t differentiate between their own prophecies which show the TWO COMINGS OF JESUS.

In Jesus’ FIRST COMING, He arrived on earth as the SUFFERING Messiah. Isaiah 53:2-10. Psalms 22:6-8 and Psalms 11:1-18.

In Jesus’ SECOND COMING, He’ll arrive on earth as a CONQUERING and REIGNING King. Psalms 2:6-12. Zechariah 12:9 and Zechariah 9:16.

Jews, who studied the scripture (as if they had a microscope) missed this. When Jesus did not FIT THEIR IDEA of a KING, they rejected Him. How could that be? How could they have missed it? TWO REASONS: (a.) They had PRECONCEIVED IDEAS of what to expect. (b.) They “studied” scripture with NATURAL UNDERSTANDING (the corrupt mind of the flesh--which is AT ENMITY--and hostile to God. Romans 8:7-8and 2 Corinthians 2:9-14). The religious leaders continually tried to TRAP Jesus, and He rebuked them often, which further infuriated them. (Matthew 12:1-50 is the classic example of their blindness.) The “religious” people could NOT see Who Jesus really was. When Jesus said “I AM” (the Hebrew equivalent of God’s name-- Luke 22:70), and said that they would see Him sitting at the right hand of God, the Father (Matthew 26:64), they tore their clothes and accused Him of blasphemy! This led to His crucifixion, exactly as the scriptures prophesied. The “religious leaders” in Israel were “instrumental” in (helping) to fulfill their own prophecies.

Today, people also study the scriptures with their NATURAL UNDERSTANDING (without the Light of the Holy Spirit). They have PRECONCEIVED IDEAS of HOW the prophecies will be fulfilled. Many do NOT see the Second Coming of Jesus as happening in stages.

Stage ONE is The Rapture of the Church, when Jesus descends into the air to call His Church up to Himself. Stage TWO is the Second Coming, when the feet of Jesus actually touch the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:22-25 CLARIFIES the STAGES, by showing us STAGES of the First Resurrection.

Christ is the FIRSTFRUITS of those who RISE from the dead. This happened on the Feast of Firstfruits, three days AFTER Jesus died.

“Afterward, they that are Christ’s at His Coming.” This is the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

THEN COMES THE END--in which the Kingdom of God will be established at the start of the Millennium. “For He (Jesus) MUST REIGN--till He has put ALL ENEMIES under His feet”--(during the Millennium). According to the structure of 1 Corinthians 15:22-25, AFTER “the tribulation” is DONE, a THIRD STAGE of the First Resurrection will occur so that some saints can enter the Millennium in their glorified flesh. These are the tribulation saints-- Revelation 20:4. And the Old Testament saints-- Job 19:25-26.

The SEQUENCE of 1 Corinthians 15:22-25 clearly SHOW a Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church! When the “plain sense” makes “perfect sense” seek “no other sense.”

DETAILS of The Rapture and the Second Coming are VERY DIFFERENT and CANNOT be the same event! We must RIGHTLY DIVIDE the Word of God! 2 Timothy 2:15.

There’s a DISTINCTION between the Church and Israel. Acts 15:14-15. Romans 11:25-27.

To suggest that the Church will remain on earth for the tribulation CONFUSES the message of Daniel’s 70th week, and causes the Church TO RECEIVE what was APPOINTED to Israel and their Holy City.

The UNITY of Daniel’s 70th week is MAINTAINED by the Pre-Trib view. By contrast, the Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath views DESTROY that unity and CONFUSES God’s PROGRAM for Israel with that of the Church.

The Post-Trib view denies the clear teaching of the 70th week by subjecting the literal prophecy to one form or another of allegory. It gives Israel’s destiny to the Church!

In the 70th week (during the “tribulation”) as prophesied in Zechariah 13:8-9--TWO-THIRDS of Israel will NOT SURVIVE, but will PERISH. A THIRD part of them will come through THE FIRE of that time, REFINED like silver and gold, and will SAY that the Lord is their God. It’s NOT the Church who will be refined by that terrible judgment!

The PROPHECY for ISRAEL clearly says, “Seventy weeks are DETERMINED upon your people (Daniel’s people--Israel) and upon your Holy City (Jerusalem).” Daniel 9:24. There is NO MENTION of the Church.

The Church Age fits into a PARENTHESIS that happens between Daniel’s 69th and 70th week.

God STOPPED Israel’s CLOCK in order for the Church Age to happen. God won’t RESTART Israel’s CLOCK until the after Church Age is finished.

The dispensation of Israel (under the law) was INTERRUPTED by the dispensation of God’s Grace through the Church. When the dispensation of GRACE in the Church is complete, then God will RESUME and FINISH the INTERRUPTED dispensation of His law in Israel. Clearly shown by the GAP between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel 9:24-27.

Yes, there are DISPENSATIONS in God’s dealing with mankind during the millennia. (I mention this because many people OBJECT to the idea of God having separate programs, especially for the Church and Israel.) A “dispensation” is defined as God’s MANNER OF WORKING as He performs His ADMINISTRATION, overseeing various groups of people throughout the scripture. He has dealt with VARIOUS groups in DIFFERING means of ADMINISTRATION. We can SEE it by paying CAREFUL attention to what’s recorded in the whole Bible. Dispensations are CLEARLY mentioned in 1 Corinthians 9:17, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2 and Colossians 1:25-26.

The tribulation (all 7 years of it) is distinctly JEWISH in nature.

In the Church, there is NEITHER Jew or Gentile, but ALL are ONE in Christ’s BODY. Ephesians 2:11-22.Galatians 3:28.

Yet in the tribulation, there IS a distinction. Revelation 7:1-17 --144,000 sealed servants from the twelve tribes of Israel. Jeremiah 30:7 --which speaks of the tribulation as “Jacob’s trouble.”

During the chapters of Revelation which gives DETAILS about the tribulation, the Church is not mentioned--not even ONCE. From Revelation 6 through Revelation 18.

The Church is the KEY player (sharing the Gospel) from Acts to Jude.

The Church is KEY player in Revelation 1 to 5, AND is seen again in Revelation 19 to 22.

There’s an ABSENCE of TEACHING about the TRIBULATION in KEY “Church-related” Bible passages. That’s why there is NO INSTRUCTION given to the Church on how to LIVE THROUGH the tribulation. BECAUSE the Church will NOT need to know HOW TO SURVIVE the tribulation. The Church will NOT be in it!

When ISRAEL was CENTRAL in the Old Testament, the Church was a MYSTERY.

When Israel was the CENTRAL FOCUS in the Gospels, the Church is virtually unmentioned.

When the CHURCH is the FOCUS in Acts through Jude, ISRAEL is NOT mentioned (EXCEPT when the Apostles told THE CHURCH to NOT to deem themselves better--ISRAEL will be grafted back in. PLUS there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile) in the CHURCH, but ALL are the BODY OF CHRIST).

The Church is CENTRAL in Revelation 1 to 3 (mentioned 19 times), and is also seen in Revelation 4 and 5 in the description of the 24 elders. Israel is NOT mentioned in those first chapters.

When Israel is in FOCUS IN Revelation 6 to 18, the Church is NOT mentioned.

Only when God’s PURPOSE for BOTH the Church and Israel is finished--then God SPEAKS of them TOGETHER. Revelation 19 to 22.

There are NO passages in either the Old or New Testament which SPECIFICALLY SAYS that the Church will go through the tribulation. (Try to find where it SPECIFICALLY SAYS that the Church will be IN the tribulation--it can’t be found!)

The tribulation is called THE TIME of “Jacob’s Trouble” Jeremiah 30:7. The tribulation is NEVER called the time of “The Church’s Trouble.”

The Church has NO PART in the first 69 weeks of Daniel’s prophecy, and it will have NO PART in the final 70th week either!

The GODLY REMNANT of the tribulation have descriptions and attributes upon them--THE SAME as seen upon Old Testament ISRAEL. The Church is NOT present during that time--there are NO “Church-related descriptions” upon tribulation saints.

THE Pre-Trib view (UNLIKE Mid-Trib, Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath), does NOT CONFUSE terms like “elect” and “saints” OF THE TRIBULATION with the Church. Terms like CHURCH and IN CHRIST apply ONLY to those who are IN the BODY OF CHRIST in THIS AGE, and these terms are NEVER found in passages which relate to the tribulation.

Israel is NOT cut-off from the COVENANTS that God gave them. But blindness (in part) will be their destiny UNTIL the Church is complete. Acts 15:14-16. Romans 11:1 and Romans 11:25-27.

Many prophecies have the characteristic of showing a LOCAL fulfillment (AT or NEAR the time when it was given), then they JUMP AHEAD to the TIME OF THE END--when they are COMPLETELY fulfilled.

These are known as PARTIAL FULFILLMENT'S or DUAL FULFILLMENT'S--which are NOTHING UNUSUAL in the scripture.

EXAMPLE ONE: In Daniel 11:1-45, the prophecy discusses IN DETAIL the Greek Empire, Alexander the Great, the breaking of the Greek Empire into four parts, wars between kings of the south (Egypt, the Ptolemies) and kings of the north (Syria, the Seleucids), and the arrival of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (a powerful TYPE of the Antichrist). In the middle of showing THE WORK of Antiochus Epiphanes, the prophecy SKIPS to THE END, to focus upon the “ultimate antichrist” (from verses Daniel 11:36-45).

EXAMPLE TWO: When Jesus BEGAN His ministry, He read from the prophecy of Isaiah, quoting UP TO the phrase “the acceptable year of the Lord.” And he closed the book. Jesus stopped reading in the middle of a sentence, because THE REMAINDER of that passage will be fulfilled at the time of THE END, in the tribulation--beginning with “and the day of vengeance of our God.” Luke 4:18-19. Isaiah 61:1-3.

EXAMPLE THREE: In Daniel 9:24, the prophet starts showing 70 weeks which are determined upon Israel. It’s fulfilled right up to A SPECIFIC DAY--when Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem, allowing the people to declare Him as King: “Blessed be the King Who comes in the name of the Lord.” (Luke 19:38, Palm Sunday). Then Messiah was CUT OFF (crucified), just like Daniel prophesied. Jesus KNEW what was DECREED to occur, because He lamented in Luke 19:42 --“If you (Israel) had known, even you, at least in THIS YOUR DAY, the things which belong unto your peace! But NOW they are HID from your eyes.” (The fulfillment of Daniel 9:26 is AN EXACT amount of 173,880 days--that scholars in Israel should have KNOWN--from THE TIME of the DECREE to rebuild Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity until PALM SUNDAY! “THIS YOUR DAY” (for Israel) was Nisan 10--THE DAY when the nation CHOSE their LAMBS for Passover. The EXACT DAY in history was April 6, 32 A.D.--when Jesus, the TRUE LAMB OF GOD, entered Jerusalem on the donkey.) Then He was CUT OFF. The REMAINDER of Daniel’s prophecy, in verse Daniel 9:27, JUMPS to THE END (after the parenthetical AGE of THE CHURCH is inserted). After the Church is COMPLETE, and TAKEN to HEAVEN in the Pre-Trib Rapture, the LAST SEVEN YEARS of Israel’s prophecy will be fulfilled during the tribulation.

In Matthew 24:36-42 and Luke 17:26-27, we see the EVENTS (plural) of the Church’s Rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus likened to the days of Noah. The KEY thing to see, is that, like in the “days of Noah,” people on earth will be doing BUSINESS AS USUAL--eating and drinking, marrying, giving in marriage--right up to THE DAY that Noah entered the ARK--his shelter from God’s judgment. Likewise, the Church is TAKEN to SAFETY in the Pre-Trib Rapture--then THE WORLD will suffer God’s judgment.

The world of Noah’s time was exceedingly wicked and violent, ripe for judgment. The world, at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, will be exceedingly wicked and violent, ripe for judgment. 2 Timothy 1:1-3. 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

Noah’s ark was LIFTED ABOVE the JUDGMENT, and ALL within the ARK were KEPT SAFE and were NOT judged. So likewise, the Church will be LIFTED ABOVE the judgment, and take to heaven, in our ARK, Jesus, and will NOT suffer WRATH.

The ARK had only ONE DOOR. Jesus is the ONLY DOOR through which people may come to God and BE SAVED from the HIS WRATH. John 14:6.

Noah and the ark CAN be pictured as Israel kept safe THROUGH the JUDGMENT, but that interpretation does NOT take into account that TWO-THIRDS of Israel will PERISH in the tribulation’s judgment. Zechariah 13:9. NOBODY perished on Noah’s ark! NOBODY in the true Church will perish in the tribulation.

In Luke 17:28-30, we see the EVENTS (plural) of the Church’s Rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus likened to the days of Lot. Again, the KEY thing to see, is that, like in the “days of Lot,” people in Sodom were conducting BUSINESS AS USUAL. They ate and drank, bought and sold, planted and built--right up to THE DAY that the FIRE hit Sodom. God--(in answer to Abraham, who asked in Genesis 18:1-33 ---“Will You destroy the righteous with the wicked?”)--made sure Lot, a righteous man, was removed from Sodom BEFORE the judgment. God’s PLAIN ANSWER--I will NOT cast the righteous into a time of judgment! Likewise, when the true Church is TAKEN to SAFETY in the Pre-Trib Rapture, THE WICKED WORLD will suffer God’s judgment.

The city of Lot was exceedingly wicked. Righteous Lot was VEXED by what occurred around him, which is described in Genesis 19:1-38 as blatant, “in your face,” homosexuality. 2 Peter 2:6-9 says that the Lord KNOWS HOW to DELIVER the RIGHTEOUS, and RESERVE THE UNRIGHTEOUS for His day of judgment. The world, prior to the Pre-Trib Rapture, will also show the increase of homosexuality, and like Sodom, will be sorely judged. The true Church, like righteous Lot, will be REMOVED BEFORE the judgment hits (Pre-Trib).

In Genesis 19:16, we see how Lot lingered. The angels, who were sent to REMOVE Lot from Sodom, LAID HOLD upon Lot’s hand, and also LAID HOLD of Lot’s wife and daughters. The angels BROUGHT them FORTH and SET them outside the city BEFORE the fire could fall. In the ACTION of LAID HOLD, we see that the angels SEIZED Lot and his family BY FORCE to REMOVED them--the EXACT DEFINITION for “Rapture.” Likewise, BEFORE the tribulation, the true Church will be “seized by force and removed”--THEN the tribulation will come.

In Genesis 19:22, we see the angel tell Lot to “Haste you, ESCAPE”--(to the small town of Zoar). The angel added (and this is important)--“I CANNOT do anything”--(in judgment) UNTIL you are OUT OF THIS PLACE! Likewise, when God’s WRATH of the tribulation approaches, the judgment CANNOT come UNTIL the true Church is TAKEN out of the earth in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, we see that the tribulation (the day of the Lord) will come like a thief in the night, when people are saying, “Peace and safety,” and, to the world’s surprise (and horror) “sudden destruction” will befall them. But the true Church will NOT be caught in it.

The world will think “peace and safety” is coming. They think by man’s wisdom, society will grow better and better. Do we hear this today? You bet!

The tribulation judgment will HIT, bringing “sudden destruction.” The unrighteous world will NOT ESCAPE. The true Church, however, will NOT be overtaken in that time. We true Christians (BORN-AGAIN, REGENERATED, INDWELLED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, MADE NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST), will obtain SALVATION (the deliverance) from that time of WRATH, and we (whether having died in Jesus--or are alive at the time) will LIVE TOGETHER with Jesus (in heaven in the MANSIONS He’s prepared for us). The pattern of being TAKEN to SAFETY is the SAME throughout scripture--BEFORE God’s judgments come! The Church is promised a Pre-Trib Rapture. Do you believe it?

The Apostle Paul’s exhortation for the Church to be COMFORTED by “the coming of the Lord” (in 1 Thessalonians 4:18) can ONLY BE TRUE in the CONTEXT of a Pre-Trib Rapture. In the Post-Tribulation view, the Lord’s coming is a FEARSOME thing to be dreaded, because of EXPECTING years of horrendous judgments. There’s NO COMFORT in teaching that the Church will go through the tribulation.

We, the true Church are told to LOOK FOR the “glorious appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”Titus 2:13. IF other prophetic events MUST happen BEFORE Jesus can appear, that verse is foolish and doesn’t make sense.

We are to PURIFY OURSELVES in view of Jesus’ soon appearing (1 John 3:2-3). IF His coming is NOT IMMINENT, then that passage is meaningless, too. (People can think, “If He’s NOT going to appear soon, then why bother with being pure?--let’s do what we want for a while.”) Our BLESSED HOPE in the PRE-TRIB RAPTURE, and it’s IMMINENCE, keeps us on our toes, spiritually.

The Church is told to LOOK ONLY for “the coming of Christ” in the Rapture (often called “His appearing”): IF we must LOOK for other prophecies FIRST, that DOESN’T make sense either. Titus 2:13

The Church is told TO ONLY LOOK for the coming of Jesus in the Rapture: It is ISRAEL and the tribulation saints who must LOOK for SIGNS of the Second Coming, and who must ENDURE until the end of the tribulation.

People will be CONFUSED about Jesus’ coming FOR His Church, if they do NOT understand the TRUE NATURE of the Church as a UNIQUE BODY of God’s people, A BRIDE for Jesus.

In the Revelation, WRATH is seen 10 times. Revelation 6:16, Revelation 6:17, Revelation 11:18,Revelation 14:10, Revelation 14:19, Revelation 15:1, Revelation 15:7, Revelation 16:1, Revelation 16:19, andRevelation 19:15. The Church is “not appointed to wrath.” Romans 5:1 and Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and Revelation 3:10. The Church, therefore, CANNOT enter into the “great day of God’s wrath.”

In Revelation 3:10, a FAITHFUL and TRUE Church is promised to be KEPT OUT OF the TIME of TEMPTATION which shall COME UPON the WHOLE WORLD to TRY them who DWELL UPON THE EARTH. This TEMPTATION is the EXPERIENCE of EVIL, ADVERSITY, and EXTREME TROUBLE. Jesus TOLD us to PRAY, “and lead us NOT into TEMPTATION, but DELIVER us from EVIL.” While this is correctly interpreted to mean protection from “ordinary everyday troubles” we face on this earth, it can also have an extended meaning. “TEMPTATION” is the VERY SAME GREEK WORD as seen in Revelation 3:10 --defined as that TIME of THE WORST EVIL which has ever happened on the earth (Matthew 24:21-22). Why would Jesus ask us to PRAY to be DELIVERED from that EVIL, if there were NO ESCAPE possible? Compare to Luke 21:36. There is INDEED a DELIVERANCE available FROM the tribulation (the MOST AWFUL TEMPTATION EVER)--and it’s called the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church!

In 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 we see that God will REPAY TRIBULATION upon the ones who have TROUBLED the Church. WHILE that RECOMPENSE occurs, the Church will BE AT REST. The Church will receive a Pre-Tribulation rapture!

The Church will NOT be “overtaken by the Day of the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9. The “day of the Lord” is another phrase which defines the tribulation. The Church will NOT be caught in it.

The believer in Jesus, who has prayed to accept Him, WILL be found WORTHY to ESCAPE the tribulation. Luke 21:36.

In Zephaniah 2:1-3, we see an exhortation from God to His people, which parallels THE ATTITUDE we’re to have BEFORE the tribulation arrives. BEFORE the decree comes forth (the “peace covenant” with the antichrist which STARTS the “tribulation”), BEFORE the FIERCE ANGER of the Lord comes--DO THIS! Seek the Lord in righteousness and meekness. WHY? So that we will BE HID in THE DAY of the Lord’s anger--another reference to a Pre-Trib Rapture.

It’s God’s character to DELIVER His own (righteous ones) from His judgments. Enoch, Noah, Lot, and Rahab are a few. The judgment could NOT happen to Sodom until Lot was TAKEN OUT OF THERE. So also, the tribulation CANNOT happen UNTIL the Church is TAKEN OUT OF THE WORLD in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Compare Luke 17:28-30 to Genesis 19:15-22 --paying special attention the verses 16 and 22.

It’s clear from scripture that there’s an INTERVAL OF TIME between the translation of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus. John 14:3. Isaiah 26:20.

ONLY the Pre-Trib Rapture does NOT DIVIDE the Church (Christ’s Body) on a WORKS BASED PRINCIPLE, as does the Partial Rapture. The Pre-Trib Rapture is the GRAND FINALE to our great SALVATION--by GRACE ALONE!

The scriptures are FIRM that the Church is UNDIVIDED--we are ALL members of ONE BODY in Jesus. (It’s in this PRESENT world that the Church is indeed divided by the CONTINUING OLD FLESH NATURE of believers--which results in dissensions and splits. When the Church is GLORIFIED at the Rapture, there will be no more fleshly divisions.)

The Holy Spirit is RESTRAINER of evil in this world. He CANNOT be taken out as prophesied UNLESS THE CHURCH (which is INDWELLED by Him), is taken out, too. The RESTRAINER is the Spirit-filled Church.2 Thessalonians 2:5-8.

The Holy Spirit’s RESTRAINING work MUST be removed BEFORE the “lawless one” is revealed. (The tribulation BEGINS with the SIGNING OF A COVENANT with ISRAEL--which STARTS the 7 years of tribulation. That act REVEALS the antichrist. So therefore, the Church must be Raptured BEFORE the tribulation begins.) The true Church will NOT see the antichrist revealed.

While the tribulation occurs on earth, the antichrist will overcome (and PREVAIL AGAINST) the tribulation saints. Revelation 13:7. But for the Church, the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against us, which PROVES that “the saints” of the tribulation CANNOT be the Church. The Church OVERCOMES by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 16:18. Romans 12:21. 1 John 2:13-14. 1 John 5:4-5. Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:11,Revelation 2:17, Revelation 2:26, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 3:12, and Revelation 3:21. That’s LOTS of OVERCOMING for the Church! This PROVES the Rapture MUST be Pre-Trib.

In Daniel 7:21 and Daniel 7:25, the little horn (antichrist) made war with the saints and PREVAILED AGAINST them, plus the antichrist will speak great words against the most high and shall WEAR OUT the saints. Again, for the Church, the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against us (or overcome us). Again, the Church CANNOT be the saints in the tribulation who are PREVAILED AGAINST, and OVERCOME! Again, this PROVES the Rapture MUST be Pre-Trib.









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Riberra, stop being so dumb. You know I've been asking for the number of Christian martyred souls kept under the altar since the opening of the 5th seal mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11. I've probably asked more than 5 times now.
The only one being so dumb is you Troll !.You cannot find a post of me saying that i can calculate the number of souls of the early Christians martyrs that John saw under the altar of God in heaven.So you are totally dumb to keep asking.
You should learn what Jesus said in Matthew 24:15-22. It's not about (Salvation) or the mark of the beast.
Matthew 24:15-22 is all about the man of sin being revealed which mean that this will be the beginning of the 42 months reign of the beast.

2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
 
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Riberra

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Riberra, stop being so dumb. You know I've been asking for the number of Christian martyred souls kept under the altar since the opening of the 5th seal mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11. I've probably asked more than 5 times now.

Psalm3704 wrote:
Post #438
When you make a bold statement claiming you can calculate the number of Christian martyred souls kept under the altar since the opening of the 5th seal mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11, I want to know how you can come up with the number.
The only one being so dumb is you Troll !You cannot find a post of me saying that i can calculate the number of souls of the early Christians martyrs that John saw under the altar of God in Heaven.So you are totally dumb to keep asking.
You should learn what Jesus said in Matthew 24:15-22. It's not about (Salvation) or the mark of the beast mentioned in Revelation 13..
Matthew 24:15-22 is all about the man of sin being revealed mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 which mean that this will be the beginning of the 42 months reign of the beast mentioned in Revelation 13.
The coming of Jesus as a thief Revelation 16:15 will shorten the days of the reign of the beast .

2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
 
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Psalms 3704 gives much truth in post #448 .... much straightened out of a very crooked path than most have been drawn off to take

Psalms 3704 wrote... post # #448
Jesus Christ told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Noah - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of those days by explicitly stating that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood came (Matthew 24:37-39). "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." - Matthew 24:39.

To emphasize this point, Jesus Christ repeated this detailed account in Luke 17:26, recording the detail that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood, and then "the flood came" (Luke 17:26-27). "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." - Luke 17:30
Psalms 3704 have copied this text from:
50 Reasons Why the Rapture Must Happen Before the Tribulation ... see the key text from the page linked.The demonstration is done Psalms 3704 is an internet troll..


http://informedchristians.com/index...ure-must-happen-before-the-7-year-tribulation

KEY :Jesus Christ told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Noah - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of those days by explicitly stating that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood came (Matthew 24:37-39). "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." - Matthew 24:39.

KEY :To emphasize this point, Jesus Christ repeated this detailed account in Luke 17:26, recording the detail that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood, and then "the flood came" (Luke 17:26-27). "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." - Luke 17:30
 
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Psalm3704 said in post 448:

. . . where is the holy place and where is Judea? I can assure you they are not in New York city.

Regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), note that there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today. And they contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up, and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church (not in hiding) will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different, protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15), they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of canned food, bottled water, warm clothing and bedding, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

Jesus Christ told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Noah . . .

Note that Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) in the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

Right after that, He warns them "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

In the Bible, when we are told to "watch" for Jesus' 2nd coming (Mark 13:35-37), the original Greek word (gregoreuo: G1127) translated as "watch" doesn't mean to stare with our eyes hoping to see someone appear at any moment. Instead, it means "to keep awake" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), like in Matthew 26:40, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, and Mark 13:36-37.

We are to keep spiritually awake as we wait for Jesus to return. For if we fall spiritually asleep, that is, fall into backsliding, there is no assurance that we will recover our right relationship with Jesus before he returns (Matthew 24:48-51), just as if we fall physically asleep waiting for something to happen, there is no assurance that we will wake back up in time to see it happen.

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that Jesus' return won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

Right after that, He uses the illustration of the unfaithful servant who was caught off-guard by his master's unannounced return (Matthew 24:45-51).

In Matthew 24:48-51, the evil servant did evil and was surprised by the Lord's return, because when the Lord didn't return sometime before or during the tribulation, the servant thought that the Lord was indefinitely "delaying" his return (Matthew 24:48). But in fact, the Lord's return won't be delayed at all, but will occur "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

Right after that, He tells them the parable of the ten virgins, and how some were caught unprepared for the bridegroom's unannounced return (Matthew 25:1-12).

Note that the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

Right after that, He tells them of the parable of the talents, and a servant who was caught unprepared for his master's return (Matthew 25:14-30).

The talents parable (Matthew 25:14-30) is about the judgment of the individuals in the church (of all times) by their individual works, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 25:19-30, Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). So Matthew 25:21,23 refers to obedient individuals in the church entering the joy of ruling on the earth with the Lord Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), which won't begin until after the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Matthew 25:30 refers to disobedient believers losing their salvation at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Luke 12:45-46) and entering "the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 1:13), "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever" (2 Peter 2:17), which could be a fate of them having to drift through the darkness of outer space.

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

The church is not appointed to wrath (Romans 5:9, I Thess. 1:9-10; I Thess. 5:9).

Note that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 shows that the church it not appointed only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

Also, note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

Post-Trib has "replacement theology"

Note that even though the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16), which includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

Mid-trib teaches that the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11, the last of trumpet I Cor. 15:52, and the trumpet of Matt. 24:31 are the same event; but, they are three distinct events. They are not connected.

Two of them are connected.

For the trump-of-God resurrection of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15) is the last-trump resurrection of the church (1 Corinthians 15:52) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And the trump of God/last trump is the trumpet in Matthew 24:31, at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (I Thess. 5:1-9).

Note that the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

Note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from "the hour of temptation." Rev. 3:10

Note that the 7 letters to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the 1st century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint (Holy Spirit) is lifted. Believers (Spirit-in dwelt) are translated.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [Greek: katecho: holds down] will let [hold down], until he be taken out of the way.

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future, the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), while the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he is always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). Also, Mark 13:11b expressly shows that the Holy Spirit will still be with believers during the future tribulation.

Also, the tribulation passage of Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning that obedient believers can have the Holy Spirit's comfort at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

The 24 elders (Rev. 4:4-11) as reps of the church would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation.

Note that the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

Also, the 24 elders sitting on thrones (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the devil can sit on a throne (Revelation 2:13, Revelation 13:2b), then some angels can sit on thrones.

Also, the 24 elders being called "elders" (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, even though angels don't age. For they can be a special group of elder angels simply in the sense of them having been created sometime before other angels.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because no other part of the Bible ever refers to angels as "elders". But this argument is like the argument of full preterism, which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, Revelation can be the only place where "elders" refers to angels.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they wear crowns of victory. But in Revelation 4:4, the original Greek word (stephanos: G4735) translated as crowns doesn't have to always refer to a crown of victory, but can sometimes refer to a crown signifying "honor generally" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Also, angels can win victories (Revelation 12:7-9), and so can wear crowns of victory.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they perform physical acts (Revelation 4:10). But angels can perform physical acts, like how the 2 angels who rescued Lot and his family grabbed their hands to hasten them out of Sodom (Genesis 19:1,16).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

Tribulations saints are not raptured at the second coming, but remain and have children (Isa. 65:20-25) and enter into the Millennium Kingdom.

Regarding Isaiah 65:20, it could refer to a new race of humans who will be created along with the new earth (Isaiah 65:17), but who will fall into sin and mortality like Adam and Eve did. But even as mortals, they could live for about 900 years, like Adam and generations after him lived that long (Genesis 5:5-27), so that if one of them dies at 100, it will be like he died in his youth (Isaiah 65:20b).

If Isaiah 65:20 does refer to the new earth, then it can't refer to any humans born on our present earth. For by the time that the new earth is created (Revelation 21:1), all humans born on our present earth who got saved and remained obedient will have been resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal physical bodies (Revelation 21:4; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Romans 8:23-25). And all who didn't get saved or who remained disobedient will have been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Isaiah 66:22,24, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

The physically resurrected, immortal humans could minister to the new race of fallen, mortal humans (of Isaiah 65:20) in the same way that angels now minister to us (Hebrews 1:14). For resurrected, immortal humans will be equal to the angels (Luke 20:36).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

The judgment of the Gentiles following the second coming (Matt. 25:31-46) is on natural bodies - which would have been impossible if they were translated at the Second Coming.

Regarding the sheep and goat judgment, note that Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of God the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

The exhortation to be comforted (I Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pre-tribulational view (contradicted by most post-tribulation).

The comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the comfort that the dead in Christ aren't lost, for their souls will come back from heaven with Jesus at his 2nd coming, and their physical bodies will be resurrected at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Similarly, the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 5:11 applies to those in Christ no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10-11).

Christians going through any tribulation are comforted by God even while they are going through that tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:3-7; 1 Peter 4:12-13). So Christians will be comforted by God even as they go through the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). They will be waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming and the rapture, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

Believers are to look for signs of His coming, not signs of the Tribulation. Titus 2:13.

Regarding Titus 2:13, note that Jesus' glorious appearing is his 2nd coming, when he will appear in glory (Matthew 24:30).

The blessed hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is the hope of believers (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).

No Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

If the expression “except there come a falling away first” (KJV) is translated literally, “except the “departure” come first,” it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.

The "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the church will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it is derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the 1st century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.

Note that nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4 says or requires that Jesus won't at that same coming subsequently descend to the earth on a white horse, as in Revelation 19. And there is no explicit descent to the earth, or a white horse, in Matthew 24:30 either, but it is still the same 2nd coming as Revelation 19:7-21. And even in Revelation 19:7-21, there is no explicit descent to the earth, even though it is the same 2nd coming as Zechariah 14:3-5, which has no explicit white horse.

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

Revelation 19 is Jesus' 2nd coming, which is when other passages show he will rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). At Jesus' 2nd coming, before he goes to war (Revelation 19:11-21), he will rapture (gather together) the church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:14-30), and marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-13).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

Scripture declare that no one KNOWS the day or the hour of Jesus’ appearance. This HAS TO MEAN the Rapture His Church!

Note that Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and partial preterist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the 1st verse means that no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the 2nd verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

In the rapture, Jesus will descend into the air and suddenly “snatch up” His Church to Himself with THE FORCE of His words, “Come up here” (which is seen in Revelation 4:1).

Regarding Revelation 4:1, note that it refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason why the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

The church in the general sense will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

The famous Rapture scriptures are these: the promise of it in John 14:1-3, the Old Testament description of it in Isaiah 26:19-20 . . .

Regarding Isaiah 26:19-20, note that while Isaiah 26:19 is indeed referring to the resurrection of the church, this won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-57, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

And Isaiah 26:20 starts a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in some copies of the KJV. And Isaiah 26:20 also takes a step back chronologically from Isaiah 26:19, like how, for example, Matthew 14:3 takes a step back chronologically from Matthew 14:2. For Isaiah 26:20 is addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And they won't be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So Isaiah 26:20 refers to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). Note that there would be absolutely no reason for resurrected, immortal people in heaven to hide (Isaiah 26:20b) from events happening down on the earth.

Also, note that nothing forbids believers from preparing their Isaiah 26:20 chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church (not in hiding) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

Israel, and the Jewish Pharisees, at the time of Jesus did NOT recognize their promised Messiah when Jesus presented Himself to them. Why? They didn’t differentiate between their own prophecies which show the TWO COMINGS OF JESUS.

There was a contrast between the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's coming, with some of them showing him coming to be meekly crucified for our sins (Isaiah 53, Psalms 22), and others showing him physically descending from heaven to wage war and to physically reign on the earth (Zechariah 14, Micah 4:1-4). But note that nothing in the Old or New Testament requires a future (to us), pre-tribulation coming of Christ versus only a post-tribulation coming of Christ. For all the as-yet-unfulfilled Old and New Testament prophecies regarding Christ's coming will be fulfilled at or sometime after his post-tribulation coming.

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

We must RIGHTLY DIVIDE the Word of God! 2 Timothy 2:15.

In 2 Timothy 2:15b, "rightly dividing the word of truth" refers to how the Bible was originally written down in manuscripts which had no spaces between the words, no punctuation, and no distinguishing capitalization or non-capitalization. That is, it was just an unbroken stream of upper- or lower-case letters. So, for example, Genesis 1:6-7 would have looked like this:

andgodsaidlettherebeafirmamentinthemidstofthewatersandletitdividethewa
tersfromthewatersandgodmadethefirmamentanddividedthewaterswhichwere
underthefirmamentfromthewaterswhichwereabovethefirmamentanditwasso

This meant that those who studied the Bible (2 Timothy 2:15a) had to rightly divide between the words in order to arrive at the correct meaning. So, in the above example, if one mistakenly divided "watersandletitdividethewaters" into the words "water: sand, let it divide the waters", one would come away with the mistaken idea that Genesis 1:6-7 refers to God creating sand bars, instead of him creating the atmosphere (the firmament, the 1st heaven, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20b) to hold water up in the air (such as in clouds), above and separate from the water in the ocean.

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

In the 70th week (during the “tribulation”) as prophesied in Zechariah 13:8-9--TWO-THIRDS of Israel will NOT SURVIVE, but will PERISH.

Zechariah 13:8-9 could refer to the "sheep" (i.e. the early Christians in Judaea) in Zechariah 13:7 (Matthew 26:31), two-thirds of which could have ended up dying in the land during the great Jewish revolts against Rome in 66-70 AD.

Zechariah 13:8-9 could also refer to both the Christians and unsaved elect Jews who will be trapped in Judaea (southern Israel) during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the just-subsequent verses (Zechariah 14:1-21) refer to a final pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the establishment of the physical, millennial aspect of his kingdom.

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

The PROPHECY for ISRAEL clearly says, “Seventy weeks are DETERMINED upon your people (Daniel’s people--Israel) and upon your Holy City (Jerusalem).” Daniel 9:24. There is NO MENTION of the Church.

Note that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Also, note that the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

Similarly, the book of Hebrews is about the church (Hebrews 2:12, Hebrews 12:23), the body of Christ (Hebrews 13:3, cf. 1 Corinthians 12:25-27).

Similarly, John 15:5a refers to the body of Christ, of which all believing Jews and Gentiles are a part (1 Corinthians 12:13). The connection between them being part of the vine of the body of Christ, and them also being part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) is that the salvation which all believers have in Christ comes only through the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

All those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7-8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

The Church Age fits into a PARENTHESIS that happens between Daniel’s 69th and 70th week.

Note that there is no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

In the Church, there is NEITHER Jew or Gentile, but ALL are ONE in Christ’s BODY. Ephesians 2:11-22. Galatians 3:28.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Note that here, Paul can't possibly mean that there are no believers who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, because elsewhere he shows, for example, that believers remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 doesn't mean that there are no believers who are males or females, for clearly we are still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16; 1 Peter 3:7a).

So Galatians 3:28 can only mean that there is no distinction between believing Jews and Gentiles, or between believing males and females, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

Jeremiah 30:7 --which speaks of the tribulation as “Jacob’s trouble.”

The time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including both Jews and Gentiles (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation. For believers will be in the tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

After the Church is COMPLETE, and TAKEN to HEAVEN in the Pre-Trib Rapture . . .

Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, we see that the tribulation (the day of the Lord) will come like a thief in the night, when people are saying, “Peace and safety,” and, to the world’s surprise (and horror) “sudden destruction” will befall them.

Regarding “Peace and safety", note that 1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

The Church is promised a Pre-Trib Rapture.

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think: "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or Jesus' return, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

People will be CONFUSED about Jesus’ coming FOR His Church, if they do NOT understand the TRUE NATURE of the Church as a UNIQUE BODY of God’s people, A BRIDE for Jesus.

Note that Jesus' coming FOR his bride and WITH his bride will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before he descends to set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

In Zephaniah 2:1-3, we see an exhortation from God to His people . . .

Zephaniah prophesied the destruction of the land of ancient Judah and neighboring countries (Zephaniah 1:4 to 2:5) by the Babylonians in the 6th century BC.

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

It’s God’s character to DELIVER His own (righteous ones) from His judgments. Enoch, Noah, Lot, and Rahab are a few.

Regarding Enoch, note that he wasn't translated into the 3rd heaven so that he wouldn't have to go through the Flood (along with righteous Noah and his family in the ark: 2 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 3:20). For Enoch (Noah's great grandfather) was translated 669 years before the Flood. The way that we can know this is first by knowing when Noah's flood happened:

Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built.

Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18). And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work farther back: If Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC. And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10, Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, which was 669 years before the Flood. Adding these 669 years to Enoch's age of 365, we find that Enoch was 1,034 years old at the time of the Flood. This means that had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the Flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and he died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27), the same year as the Flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the Flood.

Methuselah could have died of old age right before the Flood started. God could have waited to bring the Flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried. Lamech (Noah's father) had already died some 5 years before the Flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, 5 years before the Flood.

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

The true Church will NOT see the antichrist revealed.

Actually, it will.

For 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (i.e. without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). And this is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at the 2nd coming, the Antichrist will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

While the tribulation occurs on earth, the antichrist will overcome (and PREVAIL AGAINST) the tribulation saints. Revelation 13:7.

Revelation 13:7-10 shows that the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), will be allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Biblical Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). There are no Biblical Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6,14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

But for the Church, the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against us . . .

Note that Matthew 16:18 isn't contradicting that evil forces can prevail against the church physically. Instead, Matthew 16:18 meant that the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against the "rock" in Matthew 16:18, which is Jesus himself (Matthew 16:16b,18b), the rock/stone on whom the church/New Covenant Israel is built (Ephesians 2:20, Matthew 16:18b; 1 Peter 2:6), the rock/stone who was rejected and crucified (Romans 9:33, Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:4,8), the same rock/Christ who followed Old Covenant Israel/the church in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4-5, cf. Acts 7:38), and the same rock/Christ revered by New Covenant Israel/the church (1 Peter 2:4-10).

That is, Matthew 16:18 was prophesying of when the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against Jesus (Psalms 107:16), when, after his resurrection, he went down and liberated the souls of the dead Old Testament saints from Hades (1 Peter 4:6; 1 Peter 3:18c-19, Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

The Church OVERCOMES by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Note that any saved person can ultimately have his name blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), he can ultimately lose his salvation and be cast into the 2nd death of the lake of fire (Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14-15), if he doesn't overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26, Hebrews 6:11-12, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Matthew 24:9-13).

Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5, 1 John 2:13-14 and 1 John 4:4 don't contradict this, for these verses don't give any assurance that every saved person will overcome to the end. All that the 1 John verses give assurance of is that believers can presently be overcomers. And all that Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, and Revelation 2:26 give assurance of is that those believers who do overcome to the end won't have their names blotted out of the book of life, and won't be cast into the lake of fire.

An example of saved people "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) (Revelation 3:5) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) to the end is found in Revelation 15:2, which refers to saved people who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their lives during the future worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Christians will be able to spiritually overcome the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11). But it is also possible for Christians to fail to overcome, and so in the end to lose their salvation (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11), if they are fearful (Revelation 21:7-8) of being tortured or killed (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 2:10), to the point where they will wrongly employ their free will to renounce Jesus Christ and the gospel, to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6), in order to keep from getting tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).

Psalm3704 said in post 448:

In Daniel 7:21 and Daniel 7:25, the little horn (antichrist) made war with the saints and PREVAILED AGAINST them . . .

Daniel 7:21 and Daniel 7:25, like Daniel 12:7b, means that at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will come to a church which has been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).
 
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Psalm3704

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The only one being so dumb is you Troll !.You cannot find a post of me saying that i can calculate the number of souls of the early Christians martyrs that John saw under the altar of God in heaven.So you are totally dumb to keep asking.

You never spoke about a calculation or did a calculation yourself? Now who's the name of the troll written in the texts below?

Do the calculation yourself.

My calculation:
[8,3 billion believers since the time of Christ] minus [2,0 billion Christians alive right now] = 6,3 billion SOULS of dead believers /separated from their earthly bodies/who are in the presence of Jesus in Heaven

I have given the number in post #418 .I have proven my point that the BULK of the Church is already in Heaven which are the souls of 6.3 billions dead believers separated from their Earthly bodies which are in the presence of Jesus in Heaven .From that number it is estimated that 70 million Christians were slain and are part of the martyrs which continue to grow as 400 Christians are killed everyday for their fath based on a statistic made in year 2,000.

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Matthew 24:15-22 is all about the man of sin being revealed which mean that this will be the beginning of the 42 months reign of the beast.

2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

No it's not! Matthew 24:15-22 is NOT about the man of sin being revealed because the abomination that causes desolation is not what happens when the a/c sits in the temple. God doesn't get mad over someone sitting in the temple even if it is the a/c.

And you got the wrong scripture. 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 is not a cross reference or parallel scripture to Matthew 24:15-22. The correct passage is Daniel 12:11 and Daniel 11:31. Look in the link. http://biblehub.com/daniel/12-11.htm

Look at the Cross References. The first parallel passage listed is Matthew 24:15. Do the same thing. Click on Matthew 24:15 and you won't find 2 Thessalonians 2:2-24 anywhere there as a cross reference. Know why? Because you're not a smart troll. LOL!

It's because the abomination that causes desolation is not the a/c sitting in the temple. It's some object they place (set up) standing in the temple. Probably some statue of a dumb post-tribber troll that can't calculate? Ha-ha!

Matthew 24:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

Daniel 11:31 New King James Version (NKJV)
31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Daniel 12:11 New King James Version (NKJV)
“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.












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Psalm3704

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
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In the Bible,

...................many passages reveals a pre-tribulation rapture.

The Rapture relates to the Church. The Second Coming relates to Israel.

The Rapture occurs for Jesus’ heavenly people, the Church (Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 12:22-24). The Second Coming is for God’s earthly people, Israel.

At the Rapture, Jesus comes FOR His people, the Church (John 14:3, 2 Thessalonians 2:1) At the Second Coming, Jesus comes WITH His people, the Church. Jude 1:14-15. Revelation 19:14. Zechariah 14:5.

The Rapture OPENS the door for the “man of sin” to rise to power. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8. The Second Coming DOOMS the “man of sin.” Revelation 19:20.

The Rapture is IMMINENT; it can occur at ANY moment. The Second Coming MUST be PRECEDED by very many DAYS and SIGNS and EVENTS.

No one knows the EXACT DAY of the Rapture (it is UNKNOWN)-- Matthew 24:38-39, Matthew 25:13,Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, Hebrews 10:24-25. We are exhorted to be WAITING and WATCHING. BUT anyone who enters the “tribulation” will be able to COUNT SPECIFIC NUMBERS of DAYS, and KNOW the DAY when Jesus will come to earth in His Second Coming. Daniel 9:27 (seven years, 84 months, 3520 days). Revelation 12:6 and Revelation 12:14. Revelation 13:5 (three and a half years, 42 months, 1260 days). There’s also added days in Daniel 12:11-12 (1290 and 1335 days), which probably relates to THE TIMING of a CELEBRATION of the Feast of Tabernacles, plus the JUDGMENT of the Sheep and Goat nations (this might not be fully understood until THE TIME arrives, as Daniel 12:9 indicates).

After the Rapture, the Church will proceed to the Judgment Seat (the Bema) of Christ to receive REWARDS. 2 Corinthians 5:10. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20. 2 Timothy 4:8. 1 Peter 5:4.Revelation 2:10 b. Revelation 3:11. At the Second Coming there will be a Judgment of the Sheep and Goats.Matthew 24:31-46.

The Rapture pertains to God’s mercy and grace. The Second Coming pertains to God’s wrath.

At the Rapture, Jesus is the Morning Star-- 2 Peter 1:19, Revelation 2:28 and Revelation 22:16 --(which PRECEDES the sunrise of the New Day). At the Second Coming, Jesus is the Sun of Righteousness--Malachi 4:1-2 --(which shines IN the New Day).

The Rapture is the HOPE of Jesus’ people, the Church, at THE END of the New Testament-- 2 Peter 1:19 and Revelation 22:16. The Second Coming is the HOPE of Jesus’ people, Israel, at THE END of the Old Testament-- Malachi 4:1-2.

At the Rapture, the Church MEETS Jesus in the air in the clouds. At the Second Coming, Jesus sets His feet on the earth at the Mount of Olives.

At the time of the Rapture, the Mount of Olives will REMAIN UNCHANGED. At the Second Coming, the Mount of Olives IS DIVIDED, forming a valley east of Jerusalem.

At the time of the Rapture, Church saints are TRANSLATED (bodies instantly changed to immortal without passing through a route called death). NO saints are translated at the Second Coming when Jesus places His feet back on earth.

At the time of the Rapture, the world is NOT JUDGED for sin--but instead SINKS DEEPER into sin. At the Second Coming, the world IS JUDGED at the return of Jesus when He deals with the Armageddon scene.

The Rapture of the Church is a deliverance FROM the DAY OF WRATH. The Second Coming of Jesus is a deliverance FOR those who suffered under severe tribulation.

The Rapture is always IMMINENT (meaning NO prophecy must be fulfilled BEFORE it can occur). There are VERY SPECIFIC SIGNS AND PROPHECIES (which MUST HAPPEN) before the Second Coming!

The Rapture is ONLY for the SAVED. The tribulation and the Second Coming deals with the ENTIRE WORLD.

In the Rapture, Jesus calls His Church UP TO HEAVEN--He comes FOR His Church. In the Second Coming, Jesus returns to earth WITH His Church. Revelation 19:7-8. Revelation 19:14. Jude 1:14-15.

The gathering of “saints” AFTER the tribulation is done by ANGELS. The gathering of the Church to Jesus in the Pre-Trib Rapture is done by THE LORD HIMSELF.

BOTH the righteous and the wicked CANNOT be taken FIRST. In the Rapture, the RIGHTEOUS are TAKEN--the WICKED and UNREADY are LEFT BEHIND. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11. In the “tribulation” and at the Second Coming, the WICKED are TAKEN/DESTROYED in the JUDGMENT, and the RIGHTEOUS are LEFT BEHIND to enter the Millennial Kingdom. Matthew 13:30 and Matthew 13:49-50.

In the Rapture, Jesus RECEIVES us to Himself. It will NOT be US “receiving” Him when He returns in the Second Coming. John 14:2-3. If the Rapture occurred in Revelation 19, we’d go up TO MEET (or RECEIVE) Him and IMMEDIATELY RETURN to earth with Him.

If we rose to meet Him and immediately returned to earth with Him in Revelation 19, WHERE is the Judgment Seat of Christ (the Bema) and the wedding ceremony for the Bride? The NEXT THING that happens AFTER the Second Coming is the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats.

The Judgment of Gentile nations follows the Second Coming (Matthew 25:31-46). This scripture shows that BOTH the SAVED and the LOST are in NATURAL bodies (which would be IMPOSSIBLE if there were a translation, or Rapture, at the Second Coming).

IF the TRANSLATION (Rapture) took place at the same time as the Second Coming, there would be NO NEED to separate the sheep from the goats. The act of TRANSLATION would provide that separation.

IF believers were TRANSLATED (Raptured) at the Second Coming, and unbelievers were DESTROYED by the final tribulation judgment, there would be NO ONE LEFT IN THEIR FLESH TO POPULATE THE WORLD in the Millennium.

Surviving tribulation saints are NOT translated (into immortal bodies) at the Second Coming of Christ, but carry on with ordinary activities, like farming, construction, and giving birth. Isaiah 65:20-25.

The Church INDEED preaches the GOSPEL of Christ’s FINISHED WORK in His death and resurrection (inviting people to ACCEPT Jesus into their hearts and lives--to become members of the LIVING and TRUE Church). However, the LAST age of the Church is pictured as one of weakness and complacency--falling away from true doctrine. The spirit of Laodecia. Revelation 3:14-22. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. (This disproves what the “Kingdom Now” and “Dominion” groups teach.)

Scripture declares that Elijah will come before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Malachi 4:5-6. Elijah is ONE of the TWO special prophets who will minister to Israel in the near future.

Elijah will be joined by a SECOND special prophet, who will minister in Israel with the same miracles that Moses performed--under God’s guidance and power. These are the TWO WITNESSES seen in Zechariah 4:1-14 and in Revelation 11:3-13. They will declare God’s testimony during the dark days of the tribulation, and antichrist will be furious with them.

“And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.” Matthew 24:14. Jesus spoke these words, but WERE they MEANT for the Church? NO! These words were spoken in THE MIDDLE of a teaching where Jesus described THE TRIBULATION and ISRAEL’S place in it.

Revelation 7:3-8 shows 144,000 sealed SERVANTS of God. These young men will preach the Gospel during the tribulation. They number 12,000 from specific TRIBES OF ISRAEL--and are ministers who will PROCLAIM THE GOSPEL during the awful time when judgments fall from God’s throne. Nothing can harm these servants, because God’s protection is upon them (they are sealed). The RESULT of their PREACHING is A GREAT MULTITUDE seen in Revelation 7:9-12 and Revelation 15:2-4, a group of martyred souls who sing THE SONG OF MOSES. An Israeli TESTIMONY is in sight here--NOT a Church testimony.

Further EVIDENCE of the Gospel reaching EVERY NATION in the world is shown in Revelation 14:6. AN ANGEL flies through the midst of heaven (the sky) to PREACH to all those who dwell on the earth. Again, this is NOT the Church.

The Everlasting Gospel and the Gospel of the Kingdom WILL be preached in the tribulation--which is God bringing HIS MERCY in the MIDST OF JUDGMENT (but the Church is NOT the ministers). Furthermore, the MESSAGE of the Gospel of the Kingdom is that Jesus will soon RETURN to earth (after the tribulation) to set up His Kingdom in Jerusalem for the Millennium--so the SERVANTS will say, “Prepare to meet your King.” Jesus’ return to THE EARTH will also answer the petition, “Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”

ONLY the Pre-Trib Rapture view allows for a TRULY LITERAL INTERPRETATION of the Old and New Testament passages regarding the tribulation. The SYMBOLS (which are used) are DEFINED throughout the Bible and are APPLIED in a LITERAL WAY.

ONLY the Pre-Tribulation view clearly DISTINGUISHES between Israel and the Church (and HOW God deals with each)--making it NECESSARY for an interval of time between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

In the seven letters to the Churches in Revelation, Jesus says SEVEN TIMES “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.” When we get to the tribulation passage of Revelation 13:9, Jesus says “If any man have an ear, let him hear.” He LEFT OUT the words “what the Spirit says unto the Churches”--and did so BECAUSE there are NO CHURCHES on earth in the tribulation.

In the tribulation passage of Revelation 13:6, the antichrist is given a mouth to blaspheme God, His name, His tabernacle and THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN. Who are those who DWELL in heaven? The Raptured Church.

The Holy Ones (“saints” in the Church) are ALREADY with Jesus in heaven and will return to earth with Him. Zechariah 14:5. Revelation 19:14. Jude 1:14-15.

The Holy Ones who return with Jesus are NOT angels. The Holy Ones are arrayed in FINE WHITE LINEN which is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE SAINTS (which is the Church). Revelation 19:8. Revelation 3:5. Revelation 3:18.

Jesus opened His ministry in his first coming in Luke 4:18-19, quoting from the prophet Isaiah. He stopped reading AFTER saying THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD in the MIDDLE of a sentence, and SHUT the book. Jesus’ ministry in His first coming opened a time of God’s GRACE through the Church.

In Isaiah 61:1-2, the prophecy of Isaiah FINISHES where Jesus LEFT OFF. After “the acceptable year of the Lord” (GRACE--THE AGE of the Church) is the DAY OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD. AFTER the Church age the tribulation will come--“the day of vengeance of our God.” We understand HOW the Church will be Raptured, then THAT DAY will come--and it’s Pre-Tribulation.

Revelation 4:1-11 opens with “AFTER THIS I looked, and behold a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET talking with me (the trumpet voice of Jesus--seeRevelation 1:10); which said, Come up hither, and I will show you things which must come HEREAFTER.” “After this” and “hereafter” are the same Greek word “meta tauta” which means AFTER THESE THINGS. After WHAT things? AFTER the THINGS of the SEVEN CHURCHES (the complete “Church Age”) in Revelation 2 and 3. Jesus will call “Come up hither” with His TRUMPET VOICE--the trump of God--and the Church, like John, will go through an OPEN DOOR in heaven in a PRE-TRIB Rapture! The structure is HIGHLY EVIDENT! Plus, the Holy Spirit REPEATED “hereafter” TWO TIMES to make this ABUNDANTLY CLEAR! Pre-Trib!

A door is SHUT BEHIND some believers in Isaiah 26:19-20. Isaiah 26:19 shows the resurrection from the dead. Isaiah 26:20 shows the TRANSLATION (Rapture) of those who are alive. “Come, My people, enter you into your chambers (mansions), and SHUT your DOOR about you; HIDE yourself as it were for A LITTLE MOMENT (7 years) until THE INDIGNATION be overpast.” The Church will enter heaven for 7 years, a little moment, until the INDIGNATION (God’s wrath upon the rebellious world) is done. The Rapture of the Church is Pre-Trib. How can people miss this?

All believers in the Church must APPEAR before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) This event is NEVER mentioned in the events of the Second Coming, when Jesus sets His feet on the earth.


The 24 Elders in Revelation 4 and 5 are REPRESENTATIVE of a Raptured and glorified Church.

The 24 Elders CANNOT be angels. Angels DON’T WEAR crowns. Angels DON’T sit with God to rule and reign. We MUST define the 24 ELDERS by their SPECIFIC descriptions.

Elders--a term used for Church leadership.

Elders, the Greek “presbuteros.” Church terminology--the “Presbytery.”

The number 24. In 1 Chronicles 24:1-31, King David divided the Priesthood into 24 COURSES because they’d grown so large. When 24 LEADERS of the COURSES met BEFORE David’s throne, the WHOLE PRIESTHOOD was REPRESENTED. The 24 ELDERS represent the ENTIRE CHURCH before God’s throne. This is a picture of the Church as PRIESTS.

The number 24 (part 2). The Church is composed of BOTH Jews and Gentiles. 12 tribes of Israel. 12 apostles of the Church. A total of 24.

The Elders SIT. The work of the Church on earth in “the age of God’s Grace” is done.

The Elders sit on THRONES--the Church is seated on THRONES as KINGS.

The Elders wear “SPECIFIC” WHITE RAIMENT. The Church is promised white garments. Revelation 3:4-5. Revelation 3:18. That our garments (and ourselves) are to be washed and spotless are seen inEphesians 5:26-27, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:14. Jude 1:23 and Revelation 1:5.

The Elders wear CROWNS, which are STEPHANOS, given for OVERCOMING and GAINING A VICTORY (for finishing the race). The same kind of CROWNS are given to the Church. 1 Corinthians 9:25-27.1 Thessalonians 2:19-20. 2 Timothy 4:8. James 1:12. 1 Peter 5:4. Revelation 2:10 b. Revelation 3:11.

The Elders wear crowns OF GOLD. Gold shows KINGSHIP. This shows the Church as KINGS.

In Revelation 5:1-14, the Elders sing a NEW SONG of THEIR REDEMPTION (as seen in the King James Version--which is translated from a MORE RELIABLE old manuscript). The Elders sing of being SAVED by the blood of Jesus.

The Elders are saved “out of” (“called-out of”) every kindred, tongue, people and nation on earth. The Church is predominantly Gentile, “called-out of” the world.

In Ezekiel and Daniel we find SIMILAR DESCRIPTIONS of heaven as shown in the Revelation. EXCEPT FOR ONE THING. The Old Testament prophets did NOT see 24 Elders! Why? The Church is a MYSTERY which was NOT clearly revealed in the Old Testament.

The Church is called THE BRIDE of Christ. The comparison to marriage and Christ and His Church is made in Ephesians 5:22-33, and especially seen in verses Ephesians 5:29-32.

The WEDDING of Jesus and His Church follows the Jewish model. Remember, Jesus CAME to the Jews, God in the flesh of a man through a JEWISH LINEAGE.

In John 14:1-3 (where the Rapture of the Church is PROMISED), the structure of the Jewish wedding ceremony is HEAVILY IMPLIED. “In My Father’s house are many mansions.” “I GO and PREPARE a place for you.” “I will come again and receive you unto Myself…”

In the Jewish wedding, the groom INITIATES an AGREEMENT to marry a woman with the bride’s father. The groom PAYS A PRICE for his bride (the mohar). Jesus PAID THE PRICE for His Church with His own precious blood.

Once the agreement for the marriage is made and the price is paid, the marriage covenant is established. The young man and woman are considered as husband and wife, even though they have not yet lived together. From the payment of the mohar the bride is DECLARED to be CONSECRATED or SANCTIFIED--(“set apart” for her groom). As a SYMBOL of that CONSECRATION, the groom and bride drink a cup of wine over which the betrothal is announced. The Church is SET APART and SANCTIFIED unto Jesus. IN REMEMBRANCE OF THE PRICE that Jesus paid, the Church drinks the cup of communion wine.

After the marriage covenant is established, the groom leaves his bride at her home. He RETURNS to the HOME of his FATHER, where he will remain for about 12 months. After Jesus paid the price with His blood, HE RETURNED TO HIS FATHER’S HOUSE IN HEAVEN. The Church is LEFT AT HER HOME (a temporary place) upon the earth.

The bride has time to PREPARE her wedding trousseau, GETTING READY for married life. The Church remains true to Jesus, PREPARING TO MEET HIM SOMEDAY.

At the home of his father, the groom PREPARES A DWELLING PLACE for himself and his bride. Jesus returned to His Father’s house in heaven at the time of His ascension. He promised His followers that while He’s there, He PREPARES MANSIONS for us to dwell in.

At THE END of the period of separation, the bridegroom WILL RETURN--usually at night--to TAKE his bride TO COME LIVE WITH HIM. The groom, his best man, and other male escorts will leave the father’s house and do a torch-light procession to the home of the bride. The bride DOES NOT KNOW THE TIME of her bridegroom’s coming. As a result, the groom’s arrival is preceded by a shout. The TIME when Jesus will DESCEND into the air, to catch His Bride up to Himself is UNKNOWN. Therefore, the Church is exhorted to BE READY. Someday, the SHOUT which precedes Him will reach our ears and we’ll RISE UP TO MEET HIM.

After the groom receives his bride (together with her bridesmaids), the enlarged group RETURNS to the HOUSE of the GROOM’S FATHER. Jesus and His Church will be united in HEAVEN after the Rapture, at the HOUSE of GOD, THE FATHER.

The bride and groom, shortly after their arrival at the house of the groom’s father, are escorted by other members of the wedding party to THE BRIDAL CHAMBER. The bride wears a veil so her face is not seen. The marriage is consummated. A little later, it’s ANNOUNCED to the wedding guests, AT WHICH TIME the guests have a party for SEVEN DAYS. Once in heaven, Jesus and His Church will have our marriage sealed, and it’s ANNOUNCED in heaven. Then SEVEN DAYS of celebration (corresponding to the SEVEN YEARS of the tribulation) ensues.

While the SEVEN days of the celebration takes place, the bride and groom remain HIDDEN in the bridal chamber, called the “huppah.” AFTER the SEVEN DAYS are finished, the groom comes OUT OF HIDING, bringing his wife with him, and her veil is removed so all can see her. At that time, the marriage is ANNOUNCED TO THE WORLD AT LARGE. When the SEVEN YEARS of the tribulation is finished, Christ and His Bride will LEAVE THEIR CHAMBERS. Jesus will RETURN to the earth in His Second Coming to set His feet on the Mt. of Olives, and His Bride (the Church) will ACCOMPANY Him! At that time, the marriage is ANNOUNCED TO THE WORLD AT LARGE, and people will see the face of the Bride, as she RULES and REIGNS with Jesus.

The MARRIAGE of Christ and the Church is seen in Romans 7:4. “…that you should be married to another--even to Him Who is raised from the dead.”

In 2 Corinthians 11:2, we, the Church, are “espoused to one husband,” that we may be presented as “a chaste virgin to Christ.”

In James 4:4, the Church is warned about the lusts of the flesh and love of the world which makes us “adulterers and adulteresses”--a people who turn against their wedding vows (by refusing to keep themselves separate from such things).

The Apostle Paul continually reminds the Church of THE HIGH COST of our PURCHASE PRICE, the BLOOD of Jesus. Paul continually teaches of our COVENANT WITH CHRIST, by which we, His Bride, are SET APART and SANCTIFIED.

There is clearly a “coming of Jesus” FOR His “Bride” BEFORE His Second Coming to earth. During the tribulation, His Bride is ALREADY in heaven, and WILL RETURN to earth WITH Him at the Second Coming.Revelation 19:7-10 and Revelation 19:14. Jude 1:14-15.

Jesus Christ told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Noah - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of those days by explicitly stating that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood came (Matthew 24:37-39). "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." - Matthew 24:39.

To emphasize this point, Jesus Christ repeated this detailed account in Luke 17:26, recording the detail that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood, and then "the flood came" (Luke 17:26-27). "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." - Luke 17:30

Jesus Christ also told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Lot - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of that event by explicitly stating that Lot "went out of Sodom" before God's judgment rained down (Luke 17:28-29). "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." -Luke 17:30

God reminds us of these individuals again, and tells us that it is God's nature to deliver believers before divine judgment: Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (II Pet. 2:5-9). Note that Peter (who penned the book of Peter) was present when Christ told it to His disciples the first time.

Right after that, He tells them about Noah and Lot, He further emphasizes this and describes 2-3 examples (Matthew 24:40-41, Luke 17:34-36) of how some people will be taken, and some will be left.

Right after that, He warns them "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." If Christ returns at any other time than before the Tribulation, then you would know (to the day) when to expect Him. The fact that He is coming before is what catches people off guard.

Right after that, He tells them of the metaphor of the unannounced thief (Matthew 24:43-44), and told His disciples His coming would be in the same manner.

Right after that, He uses the illustration of the unfaithful servant who was caught off-guard by his master's unannounced return (Matthew 24:45-51).

Right after that, He tells them the parable of the ten virgins, and how some were caught unprepared for the bridegroom's unannounced return (Matthew 25:1-12).

Right after that, He warns them a second time, "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." - Matthew 25:13.

Right after that, He tells them of the parable of the talents, and a servant who was caught unprepared for his master's return (Matthew 25:14-30).

Here, in one sitting, Jesus Christ plainly explains the pattern of His return to a group of fishermen, and to make absolutely sure that they understand what He is saying, He lays out 2 biographical patterns, 2 pattern parables, and 2 explicit warnings about these pattern (with additional implied warnings woven throughout); the fact that He repeated something they needed to know six times in one sitting should tell us that He wants us to be absolutely clear about it!
Any teaching that ignores, contradicts, or reverses this clearly spelled-out pattern will end up ignoring and contradicting other Scripture as well, leading to confusion and deception. Do not hold to any prophetic pattern that goes against Christ's given pattern. The very first words out of Christ's mouth when He sat down to tell His disciples these things was this warning: "Take heed that no man deceive you." (Matthew 24:4).

The church is not appointed to wrath (Romans 5:9, I Thess.1:9-10; I Thess. 5:9). The church cannot enter "the great day of his wrath" (Rev. 6:17). Thirteen times in Revelation, the time of the Tribulation is described as a time of wrath (Rev. 6:16,Rev. 6:17, Rev. 11:18, Rev. 12:12, Rev. 14:8, Rev. 14:10, Rev. 14:19, Rev. 15:1, Rev. 15:7,Rev. 16:1, Rev. 16:19, Rev. 18:3,Rev. 19:15).

No NT tribulation passage mentions the church (Matthew 13:30, 39-42,48-50; 24:15-31; I Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; II Thess. 2:1-11, Rev. 4-18). Nor is the translation (rapture) of the church ever mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming after the tribulation.

Historical concept of imminency surrounding Christ's return. From a historical concept, the doctrine is not new, just more clearly classified and understood.

Pre-Trib allows literal interpretation of OT & NT. Post-trib must use some symbols or analogies.

Pre-Trib has a clear distinguishing between Israel and the church. Post-Trib has "replacement theology"

Pre-Trib gives distinction between Great Tribulation and tribulation in general. Acts 14:22 - the word tribulation is afflictions, not the time of God's wrath. Two different greek words.

Great Tribulation is for Israel's restoration, not to prepare the church for Glory (Deut. 4:29-30, Jeremiah 30:4-11 - "...even in the latter days..." "correct thee")

Pre-trib is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.

The Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11. Pre-trib teaches that it starts in ch. 6.

Mid-trib teaches that the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11, the last of trumpet I Cor. 15:52, and the trumpet of Matt. 24:31 are the same event; but, they are three distinct events. They are not connected.

Pre-trib maintains the unity of the 70 weeks. Post & mid destroy the unity of the 70 weeks and confuse Israel's program with that of the church.

The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (I Thess. 5:1-9).

The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from "the hour of temptation."Rev. 3:10

After translation, believers go to the Father's House in heaven (John 14:3).

Pre-trib does not divide the Body of Christ at the Rapture on a work principle (partial rapture). It is the final climatic aspect of salvation by grace.

All, not part, of the church will be raptured. (I Cor. 15:51-52, I Thess. 4:17).

The remnant of the Tribulation are Israelites, not members of the church.

Pre-trib does not confuse terms like 'elect' and 'saints' (saved of all ages). "Church" & "those in Christ" are those saved before Rapture. The "elect" and "saints" after the Rapture are not part of the Bride of Christ, the church.

The church is to look for signs of His coming. Believers in Tribulation are to look for signs.

Holy Spirit, as a restrainer, is removed before the lawless one dominates the Tribulation. II Thess. 2:6-8. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint (Holy Spirit) is lifted. Believers (Spirit-in dwelt) are translated.

II Cor. 5:10 records all believers before the judgment seat of Christ in Heaven - an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the Second Coming of Christ to earth.

The 24 elders (Rev. 4:4-11) as reps of the church would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation. They cannot be in three spots at the same time if post-trib.

The wedding feast takes place before the Second Coming. Rev. 19:7-10.

Tribulations saints are not raptured at the second coming, but remain and have children (Isa. 65:20-25) and enter into the Millennium Kingdom.

The judgment of the Gentiles following the second coming (Matt. 25:31-46) is on natural bodies - which would have been impossible if they were translated at the Second Coming.

If the Rapture took place at the Second Coming, there would be no need to separate the sheep from the goats. (Matt. 25:31)

The coming of Christ is imminent. If it waited on the Tribulation, it would not be imminent.

The exhortation to be comforted (I Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pre-tribulational view (contradicted by most post-tribulation). There is no comfort in having to suffer through the Tribulation and its horrors.

Believers are to look for signs of His coming, not signs of the Tribulation. Titus 2:13.

The exhortation to purify yourself in light of His coming has most significance if His coming is imminent. I John 3:2-3.

Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it.

The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.

None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).

None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30; 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18).

In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.

The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation
11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.

The unity of Daniel’s seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel’s seventieth week and confuse Israel’s program with that of the church.

The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation.

The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter “the great day of their wrath” (Rev. 6:17).

The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation.

The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth” (Rev. 3:10).

It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9).

At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father’s house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach.

Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.

The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17).

As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.

The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists.

The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only.

The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pretribulational view and is especially contradicted by most posttribulationists.

The exhortation to look for “the glorious appearing” of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs.

The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord’s return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3).

The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the Tribulation are directed to look for signs.

The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted.

The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before “the lawless one,” who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).

If the expression “except there come a falling away first” (KJV) is translated literally, “except the “departure” come first,” it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.

According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation.

The coming of Christ for His bride must take place before the Second Coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10).

Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach.

The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies. This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming.

If the translation took place in connection with the Second Coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31).

The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38), which occurs subsequent to the Second Coming, indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the Second Coming and would be unnecessary if the saved had previously been separated from the unsaved by translation.

At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.

At the time of the Rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the Second Coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5).

At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation.

At the time of the Rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the Second Coming the world is judged and righteousness is established on the earth.

The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the Second Coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the Tribulation.

The Rapture is described as imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by definite signs.

The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the Second Coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments.

The Rapture concerns only the saved, while the Second Coming deals with both saved and unsaved.

At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.

No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming.

No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.

Instead of watching for Jesus to come in the air, instead of anticipating His arrival with joy, people watch for the APPEARANCE of the ANTICHRIST, for signs, for wars, and for the unfolding of many other prophecies FIRST. This DESTROYS imminence.

Scripture declare that no one KNOWS the day or the hour of Jesus’ appearance. This HAS TO MEAN the Rapture His Church! If it were meant for the time AFTER the tribulation, it does NOT make sense. The days and hours of the tribulation CAN BE COUNTED and KNOWN, according the prophecy of Daniel 9:27! EXACT years, months and days are GIVEN--and anyone WHO SEES the antichrist make the “peace covenant” with Israel can BEGIN counting--ARRIVING at the year, month, and day when Jesus’ feet will touch the earth. Should the Church be required to enter the tribulation, we’d calculate the day and the hour--which is the opposite NOT KNOWING! The scriptures MUST show TWO DIFFERENT events!

We see many instances where Jesus exhorted His people to watch, emphasizing NOT KNOWING the day or the hour. InMatthew 24:42-47, the Goodman of the house is to be WATCHING.

In Mark 13:28-37, the parable of the fig tree (the rebirth of Israel) is given, showing a general time and season. Jesus again exhorted His people to be ready and WATCHING, because they do NOT know the day or the hour when He will come.

In Luke 21:29-36, the parable of the fig tree is repeated, with a parallel warning, to be ready and WATCHING, because no one KNOWS the day or hour (when Jesus will appear to Rapture His true Church).

In Matt 24:48-51, the evil servant did NOT watch. He said, “the Lord DELAYS His coming.” Thinking there’s plenty of time BEFORE the Lord appears, the evil servant began beating his fellow servants, and fulfilling the LUSTS of his flesh, eating and drinking with the drunken. Jesus will come when that evil servant is NOT looking for him, NOT expecting His imminent arrival, in an hour when the servant is NOT AWARE--NOT WATCHING! The Lord will cut that servant asunder--in judgment. People who do NOT EXPECT the Lord’s IMMINENT coming GROW LAX in keeping guard over their lives, and are NOT ready--because they think there’s still plenty of time.

Following the early Church councils (where sound Christian doctrine was upheld), came a time of decline. Many doctrines that mainline denominations support are based on heresies proposed by Augustine--no millennium, the “spiritualization” and “allegorical” methods of interpretation. IMMINENCE was lost. And a Church which was NOT EXPECTING the Lord’s SOON RETURN became lax in sharing the Gospel, and drifted into many areas of error. (Another fact of history.)

Rapture is from the Latin “rapere” or “rapturo” which is INDEED found in the Latin Vulgate Version of the Bible. It’s from this Latin root that we get our English word “raptor.” A raptor (eagle, osprey, hawk, owl) swoops down from above to suddenly “snatch up” its dinner with force. In the rapture, Jesus will descend into the air and suddenly “snatch up” His Church to Himself with THE FORCE of His words, “Come up here” (which is seen in Revelation 4:1).

The Greek word for the Rapture is “harpazo” which is translated as “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The literal definition of “harpazo” is to catch up and away, to pluck up, to take by force.

While “the word” Rapture is not found in our English translations of the Bible, it is INDEED there as “caught up” and in THE ACTION displayed IN that event!

The famous Rapture scriptures are these: the promise of it in John 14:1-3, the Old Testament description of it in Isaiah 26:19-20, Paul’s teachings upon it in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8.

The ACTIONS shown in Revelation 4:1 is a TYPE of the Rapture, present in the DISPLAYED ACTION, and IN the SEQUENCE of events--(occurring AFTER the testimony of the SEVEN CHURCHES in Revelation 2:1-29 and Revelation 3:1-22). “After” is DECLARED TWICE in Revelation 4:1 --“After these things” and “hereafter.” AFTER what things? AFTER the ministry of the SEVEN CHURCHES. When the “plain sense” makes “perfect sense” seek “no other sense.”

Israel, and the Jewish Pharisees, at the time of Jesus did NOT recognize their promised Messiah when Jesus presented Himself to them. Why? They didn’t differentiate between their own prophecies which show the TWO COMINGS OF JESUS.

In Jesus’ FIRST COMING, He arrived on earth as the SUFFERING Messiah. Isaiah 53:2-10. Psalms 22:6-8 and Psalms 11:1-18.

In Jesus’ SECOND COMING, He’ll arrive on earth as a CONQUERING and REIGNING King. Psalms 2:6-12. Zechariah 12:9 andZechariah 9:16.

Jews, who studied the scripture (as if they had a microscope) missed this. When Jesus did not FIT THEIR IDEA of a KING, they rejected Him. How could that be? How could they have missed it? TWO REASONS: (a.) They had PRECONCEIVED IDEAS of what to expect. (b.) They “studied” scripture with NATURAL UNDERSTANDING (the corrupt mind of the flesh--which is AT ENMITY--and hostile to God. Romans 8:7-8and 2 Corinthians 2:9-14). The religious leaders continually tried to TRAP Jesus, and He rebuked them often, which further infuriated them. (Matthew 12:1-50 is the classic example of their blindness.) The “religious” people could NOT see Who Jesus really was. When Jesus said “I AM” (the Hebrew equivalent of God’s name-- Luke 22:70), and said that they would see Him sitting at the right hand of God, the Father (Matthew 26:64), they tore their clothes and accused Him of blasphemy! This led to His crucifixion, exactly as the scriptures prophesied. The “religious leaders” in Israel were “instrumental” in (helping) to fulfill their own prophecies.

Today, people also study the scriptures with their NATURAL UNDERSTANDING (without the Light of the Holy Spirit). They have PRECONCEIVED IDEAS of HOW the prophecies will be fulfilled. Many do NOT see the Second Coming of Jesus as happening in stages.

Stage ONE is The Rapture of the Church, when Jesus descends into the air to call His Church up to Himself. Stage TWO is the Second Coming, when the feet of Jesus actually touch the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:22-25 CLARIFIES the STAGES, by showing us STAGES of the First Resurrection.

Christ is the FIRSTFRUITS of those who RISE from the dead. This happened on the Feast of Firstfruits, three days AFTER Jesus died.

“Afterward, they that are Christ’s at His Coming.” This is the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

THEN COMES THE END--in which the Kingdom of God will be established at the start of the Millennium. “For He (Jesus) MUST REIGN--till He has put ALL ENEMIES under His feet”--(during the Millennium). According to the structure of 1 Corinthians 15:22-25, AFTER “the tribulation” is DONE, a THIRD STAGE of the First Resurrection will occur so that some saints can enter the Millennium in their glorified flesh. These are the tribulation saints-- Revelation 20:4. And the Old Testament saints-- Job 19:25-26.

The SEQUENCE of 1 Corinthians 15:22-25 clearly SHOW a Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church! When the “plain sense” makes “perfect sense” seek “no other sense.”

DETAILS of The Rapture and the Second Coming are VERY DIFFERENT and CANNOT be the same event! We must RIGHTLY DIVIDE the Word of God! 2 Timothy 2:15.

There’s a DISTINCTION between the Church and Israel. Acts 15:14-15. Romans 11:25-27.

To suggest that the Church will remain on earth for the tribulation CONFUSES the message of Daniel’s 70th week, and causes the Church TO RECEIVE what was APPOINTED to Israel and their Holy City.

The UNITY of Daniel’s 70th week is MAINTAINED by the Pre-Trib view. By contrast, the Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath views DESTROY that unity and CONFUSES God’s PROGRAM for Israel with that of the Church.

The Post-Trib view denies the clear teaching of the 70th week by subjecting the literal prophecy to one form or another of allegory. It gives Israel’s destiny to the Church!

In the 70th week (during the “tribulation”) as prophesied in Zechariah 13:8-9--TWO-THIRDS of Israel will NOT SURVIVE, but will PERISH. A THIRD part of them will come through THE FIRE of that time, REFINED like silver and gold, and will SAY that the Lord is their God. It’s NOT the Church who will be refined by that terrible judgment!

The PROPHECY for ISRAEL clearly says, “Seventy weeks are DETERMINED upon your people (Daniel’s people--Israel) and upon your Holy City (Jerusalem).” Daniel 9:24. There is NO MENTION of the Church.

The Church Age fits into a PARENTHESIS that happens between Daniel’s 69th and 70th week.

God STOPPED Israel’s CLOCK in order for the Church Age to happen. God won’t RESTART Israel’s CLOCK until the after Church Age is finished.

The dispensation of Israel (under the law) was INTERRUPTED by the dispensation of God’s Grace through the Church. When the dispensation of GRACE in the Church is complete, then God will RESUME and FINISH the INTERRUPTED dispensation of His law in Israel. Clearly shown by the GAP between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel 9:24-27.

Yes, there are DISPENSATIONS in God’s dealing with mankind during the millennia. (I mention this because many people OBJECT to the idea of God having separate programs, especially for the Church and Israel.) A “dispensation” is defined as God’s MANNER OF WORKING as He performs His ADMINISTRATION, overseeing various groups of people throughout the scripture. He has dealt with VARIOUS groups in DIFFERING means of ADMINISTRATION. We can SEE it by paying CAREFUL attention to what’s recorded in the whole Bible. Dispensations are CLEARLY mentioned in 1 Corinthians 9:17, Ephesians 1:10,Ephesians 3:2 and Colossians 1:25-26.

The tribulation (all 7 years of it) is distinctly JEWISH in nature.

In the Church, there is NEITHER Jew or Gentile, but ALL are ONE in Christ’s BODY. Ephesians 2:11-22.Galatians 3:28.

Yet in the tribulation, there IS a distinction. Revelation 7:1-17 --144,000 sealed servants from the twelve tribes of Israel.Jeremiah 30:7 --which speaks of the tribulation as “Jacob’s trouble.”

During the chapters of Revelation which gives DETAILS about the tribulation, the Church is not mentioned--not even ONCE. From Revelation 6 through Revelation 18.

The Church is the KEY player (sharing the Gospel) from Acts to Jude.

The Church is KEY player in Revelation 1 to 5, AND is seen again in Revelation 19 to 22.

There’s an ABSENCE of TEACHING about the TRIBULATION in KEY “Church-related” Bible passages. That’s why there is NO INSTRUCTION given to the Church on how to LIVE THROUGH the tribulation. BECAUSE the Church will NOT need to know HOW TO SURVIVE the tribulation. The Church will NOT be in it!

When ISRAEL was CENTRAL in the Old Testament, the Church was a MYSTERY.

When Israel was the CENTRAL FOCUS in the Gospels, the Church is virtually unmentioned.

When the CHURCH is the FOCUS in Acts through Jude, ISRAEL is NOT mentioned (EXCEPT when the Apostles told THE CHURCH to NOT to deem themselves better--ISRAEL will be grafted back in. PLUS there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile) in the CHURCH, but ALL are the BODY OF CHRIST).

The Church is CENTRAL in Revelation 1 to 3 (mentioned 19 times), and is also seen in Revelation 4 and 5 in the description of the 24 elders. Israel is NOT mentioned in those first chapters.

When Israel is in FOCUS IN Revelation 6 to 18, the Church is NOT mentioned.

Only when God’s PURPOSE for BOTH the Church and Israel is finished--then God SPEAKS of them TOGETHER. Revelation 19 to 22.

There are NO passages in either the Old or New Testament which SPECIFICALLY SAYS that the Church will go through the tribulation. (Try to find where it SPECIFICALLY SAYS that the Church will be IN the tribulation--it can’t be found!)

The tribulation is called THE TIME of “Jacob’s Trouble” Jeremiah 30:7. The tribulation is NEVER called the time of “The Church’s Trouble.”

The Church has NO PART in the first 69 weeks of Daniel’s prophecy, and it will have NO PART in the final 70th week either!

The GODLY REMNANT of the tribulation have descriptions and attributes upon them--THE SAME as seen upon Old Testament ISRAEL. The Church is NOT present during that time--there are NO “Church-related descriptions” upon tribulation saints.

THE Pre-Trib view (UNLIKE Mid-Trib, Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath), does NOT CONFUSE terms like “elect” and “saints” OF THE TRIBULATION with the Church. Terms like CHURCH and IN CHRIST apply ONLY to those who are IN the BODY OF CHRIST in THIS AGE, and these terms are NEVER found in passages which relate to the tribulation.

Israel is NOT cut-off from the COVENANTS that God gave them. But blindness (in part) will be their destiny UNTIL the Church is complete. Acts 15:14-16. Romans 11:1 and Romans 11:25-27.

Many prophecies have the characteristic of showing a LOCAL fulfillment (AT or NEAR the time when it was given), then they JUMP AHEAD to the TIME OF THE END--when they are COMPLETELY fulfilled.

These are known as PARTIAL FULFILLMENT'S or DUAL FULFILLMENT'S--which are NOTHING UNUSUAL in the scripture.

EXAMPLE ONE: In Daniel 11:1-45, the prophecy discusses IN DETAIL the Greek Empire, Alexander the Great, the breaking of the Greek Empire into four parts, wars between kings of the south (Egypt, the Ptolemies) and kings of the north (Syria, the Seleucids), and the arrival of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (a powerful TYPE of the Antichrist). In the middle of showing THE WORK of Antiochus Epiphanes, the prophecy SKIPS to THE END, to focus upon the “ultimate antichrist” (from verses Daniel 11:36-45).

EXAMPLE TWO: When Jesus BEGAN His ministry, He read from the prophecy of Isaiah, quoting UP TO the phrase “the acceptable year of the Lord.” And he closed the book. Jesus stopped reading in the middle of a sentence, because THE REMAINDER of that passage will be fulfilled at the time of THE END, in the tribulation--beginning with “and the day of vengeance of our God.” Luke 4:18-19. Isaiah 61:1-3.

EXAMPLE THREE: In Daniel 9:24, the prophet starts showing 70 weeks which are determined upon Israel. It’s fulfilled right up to A SPECIFIC DAY--when Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem, allowing the people to declare Him as King: “Blessed be the King Who comes in the name of the Lord.” (Luke 19:38, Palm Sunday). Then Messiah was CUT OFF (crucified), just like Daniel prophesied. Jesus KNEW what was DECREED to occur, because He lamented in Luke 19:42 --“If you (Israel) had known, even you, at least in THIS YOUR DAY, the things which belong unto your peace! But NOW they are HID from your eyes.” (The fulfillment of Daniel 9:26 is AN EXACT amount of 173,880 days--that scholars in Israel should have KNOWN--from THE TIME of the DECREE to rebuild Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity until PALM SUNDAY! “THIS YOUR DAY” (for Israel) was Nisan 10--THE DAY when the nation CHOSE their LAMBS for Passover. The EXACT DAY in history was April 6, 32 A.D.--when Jesus, the TRUE LAMB OF GOD, entered Jerusalem on the donkey.) Then He was CUT OFF. The REMAINDER of Daniel’s prophecy, in verse Daniel 9:27, JUMPS to THE END (after the parenthetical AGE of THE CHURCH is inserted). After the Church is COMPLETE, and TAKEN to HEAVEN in the Pre-Trib Rapture, the LAST SEVEN YEARS of Israel’s prophecy will be fulfilled during the tribulation.

In Matthew 24:36-42 and Luke 17:26-27, we see the EVENTS (plural) of the Church’s Rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus likened to the days of Noah. The KEY thing to see, is that, like in the “days of Noah,” people on earth will be doing BUSINESS AS USUAL--eating and drinking, marrying, giving in marriage--right up to THE DAY that Noah entered the ARK--his shelter from God’s judgment. Likewise, the Church is TAKEN to SAFETY in the Pre-Trib Rapture--then THE WORLD will suffer God’s judgment.

The world of Noah’s time was exceedingly wicked and violent, ripe for judgment. The world, at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, will be exceedingly wicked and violent, ripe for judgment. 2 Timothy 1:1-3. 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

Noah’s ark was LIFTED ABOVE the JUDGMENT, and ALL within the ARK were KEPT SAFE and were NOT judged. So likewise, the Church will be LIFTED ABOVE the judgment, and take to heaven, in our ARK, Jesus, and will NOT suffer WRATH.

The ARK had only ONE DOOR. Jesus is the ONLY DOOR through which people may come to God and BE SAVED from the HIS WRATH. John 14:6.

Noah and the ark CAN be pictured as Israel kept safe THROUGH the JUDGMENT, but that interpretation does NOT take into account that TWO-THIRDS of Israel will PERISH in the tribulation’s judgment. Zechariah 13:9. NOBODY perished on Noah’s ark! NOBODY in the true Church will perish in the tribulation.

In Luke 17:28-30, we see the EVENTS (plural) of the Church’s Rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus likened to the days of Lot. Again, the KEY thing to see, is that, like in the “days of Lot,” people in Sodom were conducting BUSINESS AS USUAL. They ate and drank, bought and sold, planted and built--right up to THE DAY that the FIRE hit Sodom. God--(in answer to Abraham, who asked in Genesis 18:1-33 ---“Will You destroy the righteous with the wicked?”)--made sure Lot, a righteous man, was removed from Sodom BEFORE the judgment. God’s PLAIN ANSWER--I will NOT cast the righteous into a time of judgment! Likewise, when the true Church is TAKEN to SAFETY in the Pre-Trib Rapture, THE WICKED WORLD will suffer God’s judgment.

The city of Lot was exceedingly wicked. Righteous Lot was VEXED by what occurred around him, which is described in Genesis 19:1-38 as blatant, “in your face,” homosexuality. 2 Peter 2:6-9 says that the Lord KNOWS HOW to DELIVER the RIGHTEOUS, and RESERVE THE UNRIGHTEOUS for His day of judgment. The world, prior to the Pre-Trib Rapture, will also show the increase of homosexuality, and like Sodom, will be sorely judged. The true Church, like righteous Lot, will be REMOVED BEFORE the judgment hits (Pre-Trib).

In Genesis 19:16, we see how Lot lingered. The angels, who were sent to REMOVE Lot from Sodom, LAID HOLD upon Lot’s hand, and also LAID HOLD of Lot’s wife and daughters. The angels BROUGHT them FORTH and SET them outside the city BEFORE the fire could fall. In the ACTION of LAID HOLD, we see that the angels SEIZED Lot and his family BY FORCE to REMOVED them--the EXACT DEFINITION for “Rapture.” Likewise, BEFORE the tribulation, the true Church will be “seized by force and removed”--THEN the tribulation will come.

In Genesis 19:22, we see the angel tell Lot to “Haste you, ESCAPE”--(to the small town of Zoar). The angel added (and this is important)--“I CANNOT do anything”--(in judgment) UNTIL you are OUT OF THIS PLACE! Likewise, when God’s WRATH of the tribulation approaches, the judgment CANNOT come UNTIL the true Church is TAKEN out of the earth in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, we see that the tribulation (the day of the Lord) will come like a thief in the night, when people are saying, “Peace and safety,” and, to the world’s surprise (and horror) “sudden destruction” will befall them. But the true Church will NOT be caught in it.

The world will think “peace and safety” is coming. They think by man’s wisdom, society will grow better and better. Do we hear this today? You bet!

The tribulation judgment will HIT, bringing “sudden destruction.” The unrighteous world will NOT ESCAPE. The true Church, however, will NOT be overtaken in that time. We true Christians (BORN-AGAIN, REGENERATED, INDWELLED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, MADE NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST), will obtain SALVATION (the deliverance) from that time of WRATH, and we (whether having died in Jesus--or are alive at the time) will LIVE TOGETHER with Jesus (in heaven in the MANSIONS He’s prepared for us). The pattern of being TAKEN to SAFETY is the SAME throughout scripture--BEFORE God’s judgments come! The Church is promised a Pre-Trib Rapture. Do you believe it?

The Apostle Paul’s exhortation for the Church to be COMFORTED by “the coming of the Lord” (in 1 Thessalonians 4:18) can ONLY BE TRUE in the CONTEXT of a Pre-Trib Rapture. In the Post-Tribulation view, the Lord’s coming is a FEARSOME thing to be dreaded, because of EXPECTING years of horrendous judgments. There’s NO COMFORT in teaching that the Church will go through the tribulation.

We, the true Church are told to LOOK FOR the “glorious appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”Titus 2:13. IF other prophetic events MUST happen BEFORE Jesus can appear, that verse is foolish and doesn’t make sense.

We are to PURIFY OURSELVES in view of Jesus’ soon appearing (1 John 3:2-3). IF His coming is NOT IMMINENT, then that passage is meaningless, too. (People can think, “If He’s NOT going to appear soon, then why bother with being pure?--let’s do what we want for a while.”) Our BLESSED HOPE in the PRE-TRIB RAPTURE, and it’s IMMINENCE, keeps us on our toes, spiritually.

The Church is told to LOOK ONLY for “the coming of Christ” in the Rapture (often called “His appearing”): IF we must LOOK for other prophecies FIRST, that DOESN’T make sense either. Titus 2:13

The Church is told TO ONLY LOOK for the coming of Jesus in the Rapture: It is ISRAEL and the tribulation saints who must LOOK for SIGNS of the Second Coming, and who must ENDURE until the end of the tribulation.

People will be CONFUSED about Jesus’ coming FOR His Church, if they do NOT understand the TRUE NATURE of the Church as a UNIQUE BODY of God’s people, A BRIDE for Jesus.

In the Revelation, WRATH is seen 10 times. Revelation 6:16, Revelation 6:17, Revelation 11:18,Revelation 14:10, Revelation 14:19, Revelation 15:1, Revelation 15:7, Revelation 16:1, Revelation 16:19, andRevelation 19:15. The Church is “not appointed to wrath.” Romans 5:1 and Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and Revelation 3:10. The Church, therefore, CANNOT enter into the “great day of God’s wrath.”

In Revelation 3:10, a FAITHFUL and TRUE Church is promised to be KEPT OUT OF the TIME of TEMPTATION which shall COME UPON the WHOLE WORLD to TRY them who DWELL UPON THE EARTH. This TEMPTATION is the EXPERIENCE of EVIL, ADVERSITY, and EXTREME TROUBLE. Jesus TOLD us to PRAY, “and lead us NOT into TEMPTATION, but DELIVER us from EVIL.” While this is correctly interpreted to mean protection from “ordinary everyday troubles” we face on this earth, it can also have an extended meaning. “TEMPTATION” is the VERY SAME GREEK WORD as seen in Revelation 3:10 --defined as that TIME of THE WORST EVIL which has ever happened on the earth (Matthew 24:21-22). Why would Jesus ask us to PRAY to be DELIVERED from that EVIL, if there were NO ESCAPE possible? Compare to Luke 21:36. There is INDEED a DELIVERANCE available FROM the tribulation (the MOST AWFUL TEMPTATION EVER)--and it’s called the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church!

In 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 we see that God will REPAY TRIBULATION upon the ones who have TROUBLED the Church. WHILE that RECOMPENSE occurs, the Church will BE AT REST. The Church will receive a Pre-Tribulation rapture!

The Church will NOT be “overtaken by the Day of the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9. The “day of the Lord” is another phrase which defines the tribulation. The Church will NOT be caught in it.

The believer in Jesus, who has prayed to accept Him, WILL be found WORTHY to ESCAPE the tribulation. Luke 21:36.

In Zephaniah 2:1-3, we see an exhortation from God to His people, which parallels THE ATTITUDE we’re to have BEFORE the tribulation arrives. BEFORE the decree comes forth (the “peace covenant” with the antichrist which STARTS the “tribulation”), BEFORE the FIERCE ANGER of the Lord comes--DO THIS! Seek the Lord in righteousness and meekness. WHY? So that we will BE HID in THE DAY of the Lord’s anger--another reference to a Pre-Trib Rapture.

It’s God’s character to DELIVER His own (righteous ones) from His judgments. Enoch, Noah, Lot, and Rahab are a few. The judgment could NOT happen to Sodom until Lot was TAKEN OUT OF THERE. So also, the tribulation CANNOT happen UNTIL the Church is TAKEN OUT OF THE WORLD in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Compare Luke 17:28-30 to Genesis 19:15-22 --paying special attention the verses 16 and 22.

It’s clear from scripture that there’s an INTERVAL OF TIME between the translation of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus. John 14:3. Isaiah 26:20.

ONLY the Pre-Trib Rapture does NOT DIVIDE the Church (Christ’s Body) on a WORKS BASED PRINCIPLE, as does the Partial Rapture. The Pre-Trib Rapture is the GRAND FINALE to our great SALVATION--by GRACE ALONE!

The scriptures are FIRM that the Church is UNDIVIDED--we are ALL members of ONE BODY in Jesus. (It’s in this PRESENT world that the Church is indeed divided by the CONTINUING OLD FLESH NATURE of believers--which results in dissensions and splits. When the Church is GLORIFIED at the Rapture, there will be no more fleshly divisions.)

The Holy Spirit is RESTRAINER of evil in this world. He CANNOT be taken out as prophesied UNLESS THE CHURCH (which is INDWELLED by Him), is taken out, too. The RESTRAINER is the Spirit-filled Church.2 Thessalonians 2:5-8.

The Holy Spirit’s RESTRAINING work MUST be removed BEFORE the “lawless one” is revealed. (The tribulation BEGINS with the SIGNING OF A COVENANT with ISRAEL--which STARTS the 7 years of tribulation. That act REVEALS the antichrist. So therefore, the Church must be Raptured BEFORE the tribulation begins.) The true Church will NOT see the antichrist revealed.

While the tribulation occurs on earth, the antichrist will overcome (and PREVAIL AGAINST) the tribulation saints. Revelation 13:7. But for the Church, the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against us, which PROVES that “the saints” of the tribulation CANNOT be the Church. The Church OVERCOMES by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 16:18. Romans 12:21. 1 John 2:13-14. 1 John 5:4-5. Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:11,Revelation 2:17, Revelation 2:26, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 3:12, and Revelation 3:21. That’s LOTS of OVERCOMING for the Church! This PROVES the Rapture MUST be Pre-Trib.

In Daniel 7:21 and Daniel 7:25, the little horn (antichrist) made war with the saints and PREVAILED AGAINST them, plus the antichrist will speak great words against the most high and shall WEAR OUT the saints. Again, for the Church, the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against us (or overcome us). Again, the Church CANNOT be the saints in the tribulation who are PREVAILED AGAINST, and OVERCOME! Again, this PROVES the Rapture MUST be Pre-Trib.













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Psalm3704

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
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Psalms 3704 have copied this text from:
50 Reasons Why the Rapture Must Happen Before the Tribulation ... see the key text from the page linked.The demonstration is done Psalms 3704 is an internet troll..

http://informedchristians.com/index...ure-must-happen-before-the-7-year-tribulation

KEY :Jesus Christ told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Noah - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of those days by explicitly stating that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood came (Matthew 24:37-39). "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." - Matthew 24:39.

KEY :To emphasize this point, Jesus Christ repeated this detailed account in Luke 17:26, recording the detail that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood, and then "the flood came" (Luke 17:26-27). "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." - Luke 17:30

Riberra becomes upset easily and gets bent out of shape like a pretzel whenever someone post a passage revealing a pre-tribulation rapture and will even resort to name calling. For some reason, he hates the idea immensely beyond measures and absolutely refuses to acknowledge what the bible explicitly stated: "Jesus will come to rescue the church before the wrath (pre-trib), not after (post-trib)."

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV) and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (CJB) and to wait for his Son Yeshua, whom he raised from the dead, to appear from heaven and rescue us from the impending fury of God's judgment.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (GNT) and to wait for his Son to come from heaven - his Son Jesus, whom he raised from death and who rescues us from God's anger that is coming.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (ESV) and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (NRS) and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath that is coming.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.



@Riberra,

You need to stop hating what the bible teaches and accept it. What Christian would not want to see Christ comes rescue the church before the tribulation?

Plus you also need peace that only Christ can offer. The kind that even the enemy cannot take away. Getting upset over a pre-trib rapture is not from God.

John 14:27 New International Version
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.










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