jimmyjimmy

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Well, people have already pointed out clearly male language for God. Others have pointed out clearly female language God. Both are referenced throughout Scripture. I'm not going to go back through the ones in Scripture using male language, because these have been well embraced.

As far as God as mother:

Genesis 1:27 Women and Men created in God’s image

“Humankind was created as God’s reflection: in the divine image God created them; female and male, God made them.”

Hosea 11:3-4 God described as a mother

God: “Yet it was I who taught Ephraim to walk, I who took them up in my arms; but they did not know that I healed them. I led them with cords of human kindness, with bands of love. I was to them like those who lift infants to their cheeks. I bent down to them and fed them.”

Hosea 13:8 God described as a mother bear

“Like a bear robbed of her cubs, I will attack them and tear them asunder…”

Deuteronomy 32:11-12 God described as a mother eagle

“Like the eagle that stirs up its nest, and hovers over its young, God spreads wings to catch you, and carries you on pinions.”

Deuteronomy 32:18 God who gives birth

“You were unmindful of the Rock that bore you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.”

Isaiah 66:13 God as a comforting mother

God: “As a mother comforts her child, so I will comfort you; you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.”

Isaiah 49:15 God compared to a nursing mother

God: “Can a woman forget her nursing child, or show no compassion for the child of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you.”

Isaiah 42:14 God as a woman in labor

God: “For a long time I have held my peace, I have kept myself still and restrained myself; now I will cry out like a woman in labor, I will gasp and pant.”



Psalm 131:2 God as a Mother

“But I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a weaned child with its mother; my soul is like the weaned child that is with me.”

Psalm 123:2-3 God compared to a woman

“As the eyes of a servant looks to the hand of their master, as the eyes of a maid to the hand of her mistress, so our eyes look to you, YHWH, until you show us your mercy!”

Matthew 23:37 and Luke 13:34 God as a Mother Hen

Jesus: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”

Luke 15:8-10 God as woman looking for her lost coin

Jesus: “Or what woman having ten silver coins, is she loses one of them, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

These are clear examples, though as others have pointed out, the Hebrew Elohim (all over the Bible) in and of itself, has female implications. These examples have led to this conflict with conservatives calling God Father and liberals calling God Mother. Let's just be honest, that is the way this debate has come to surface. Conservatives and Liberals each have an arsenal of Scripture, so who is right?

BOTH.
Is God our Heavenly Father who rules over us, punishes us when we go astray, etc. etc.? Yes, of course He is. Conservatives are right. Is God our Heavenly Mother who cares for us, nurtures us, protects us, etc. etc.? Yes, of course She is. Liberals are right. Both are right but both are wrong when we forget about the other aspect, the other side. The major thrust of this current debate has been directed against the error that arises when liberals make God into only a Mother (which threatens to disengage from God the Father and recreate the Divine as just another pagan goddess).

But Scripture affirms both God the Mother and God the Father. And how do we reconcile this mystery? Through a Trinitarian lens. This is the mystery of the Trinity - three in One.

God as Father, God as Mother and God as Androgyne.

I do not need to say more about God as Father, as others have already done so (from Scripture). I have just listed several aspects from Scripture which refer to God as Mother (which can exist in conjunction with what others have said here as well). So this leaves me with one last claim to defend: that Jesus, God incarnate, was in fact both. And to that, I will turn...

Using an analogy does not change one's being. If I care for a puppy like I'm its mother, does that make me a female dog? None these references make "Mother God" a reality, biblically, and some of them are utterly ridiculous.
 
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FaeryChild

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Well, by that logic, we cannot speak of God as Father either.

If we accept that God has male qualities because Scripture uses male analogies, then we must also accept that God has female qualities because Scripture uses female analogies. All references are, by nature, analogies, because there is always a gap between God as God is and God as we experience God.

In an important sense, God has always been, and always will be, beyond our understanding / comprehension. It simply is not possible for a human brain to fully grasp God. But on the other hand, we are supposed to have an understanding of God that fits within our intellect without being confined to it. In this regard, once again, Scripture utilizes both male and female language.

I'm arguing for a both / and approach.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Well, by that logic, we cannot speak of God as Father either.

If we accept that God has male qualities because Scripture uses male analogies, then we must also accept that God has female qualities because Scripture uses female analogies. All references are, by nature, analogies, because there is always a gap between God as God is and God as we experience God.

In an important sense, God has always been, and always will be, beyond our understanding / comprehension. It simply is not possible for a human brain to fully grasp God. But on the other hand, we are supposed to have an understanding of God that fits within our intellect without being confined to it. In this regard, once again, Scripture utilizes both male and female language.

I'm arguing for a both / and approach.

Jesus was male, and He referred to God as Father. No analogies there.

God is both knowable and unknowable. What He has revealed to us is in Christ. A male. "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" - Jesus
 
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FaeryChild

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Jesus was conceived by a virgin. He was a male who was also genetically XX (since there was no biological father to provide a Y chromosome). This means that Jesus intersexual, having traits of both sexes. This is why Jesus did not marry - for those who are eunuchs from birth are not given to marriage. And yes, if you have seen Jesus you have seen God! For only an intersexed Savior could truly be the Savior of both sexes and since God is Male/Female then the incarnation of God must be Male/Female as well.

Consider the Greek word mastos, which always meant a female breast. Here is Luke 11:27 And while he was speaking these things, a woman raised her voice from the crowd and she said to him, “Blessing to the womb that carried you and to the breasts that suckled you.” and here is Luke 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Here, in the Greek, is a reference to Jesus' female breasts. More profoundly in Revelation 1:13: And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps (mastos) with a golden girdle. Jesus has female breasts and is wearing a bra-like girdle.

This not just a modern innovation or an acquiescing to Liberalism - the Church has utilized feminine imagery of Jesus for a long time. Both Bernard of Clairvaux and Hildegard of Bingen emphasized that Jesus was not just male, but was female also! Indeed if you have seen Jesus, you have seen God! I will leave you with a few quotes from Julian of Norwich, Revelations of Divine Love:

“So Jesus Christ who sets good against evil is our real Mother. We owe our being to him--and this is the essence of motherhood! --and all the delightful, loving protection which ever follows. God is as really our Mother as he is our Father.“ (Chapter 59)

“So Jesus is our true Mother by nature at our first creation, and he is our true Mother in grace by taking on our created nature.” (Chapter 59)

“A mother can give her child milk to suck, but our dear mother Jesus can feed us with himself, and he does so most courteously and most tenderly with the holy sacrament, which is the precious food of life itself… The mother can lay the child tenderly to her breast, but our tender mother Jesus, he can familiarly lead us to his blessed breast through his sweet open side….” (Chapter 60)

For more: http://www.vatican.va/spirit/documents/spirit_20010807_giuliana-norwich_en.html
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Jesus was conceived by a virgin. He was a male who was also genetically XX (since there was no biological father to provide a Y chromosome). This means that Jesus intersexual, having traits of both sexes.

Would you mind if I quoted you on this? I've never heard anything like it.

You forgot the message for the angle to Mary, I think.
 
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FaeryChild

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As long as we clear that I believe the way I do because I believe that:

*it is important to take the doctrine of the virginal conception as literal as possible, as biological historical fact, and that we should accept any/all logical conclusions from doing so... as must also be the case when taking the Incarnation as literal historical fact.

Then yes.
 
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ewq1938

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Hebrew doesn't have a neuter gender - that is true. As far as the gender of a word not suggesting the gender of the noun, this is the standard pap of grammaticians teaching students. The origins of language, however, are far more complex than the simple rules of thumb that we use today to try to learn and teach that which is difficult.

What I am talking about comes from Hebrew scholars. I've taken Hebrew courses, read and studied the works of Hebrew scholars. It is well known a feminine noun does not automatically equal a female entity.


My time on this board is nearing an end precisely because of little details like this. The majority of vocal Christians are really quite unpleasant people to communicate with. On everything. They have the feel of people who are not really sure what they believe, and who compensate for that by being hyper-argumentative about everything.

I find it exhausting and predictable, like watching chickens peck at each other in the yard. So, thank you for your post. It reminds me of why I keep resolving to leave this site and stay away. The subjects are really interesting, but they cannot be discussed politely among Christians, because Christians are, as a group, in my experience, consistently the least pleasant people I have ever met. I'll stick with Catholics for this sort of discussion from now on.

Catholics are Christians.
 
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ewq1938

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I guess if the Trinity is made up of three fully divine persons God the Father might have a body, but does that negate the fact that God is a Spirit? (John 4:24)

It doesn't say "God the Father is a spirit." If the Holy Spirit is God then it's factual to say God is a spirit. Jesus is also God but that doesn't make him a bodiless spirit and so it also doesn't make the Father a bodiless spirit.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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As long as we clear that I believe the way I do because I believe that:

*it is important to take the doctrine of the virginal conception as literal as possible, as biological historical fact, and that we should accept any/all logical conclusions from doing so... as must also be the case when taking the Incarnation as literal historical fact.

Then yes.
As long as we clear that I believe the way I do because I believe that:

*it is important to take the doctrine of the virginal conception as literal as possible, as biological historical fact, and that we should accept any/all logical conclusions from doing so... as must also be the case when taking the Incarnation as literal historical fact.

Then yes.

I wasn't aware that the Catholic Church teaches Christ as female. That's a new one one me, and I guess one more area of disagreement I have with the RCC.

Using scripture, since we don't have a DNA sample of Christ, how do you back up your ascertain that Jesus was neither male nor female?

I see the Father saying, "This is my Son". I see the Son saying, "Our Father". I see no Mother or sister.
 
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FaeryChild

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Consider the Greek word mastos, which always meant a female breast. Here is Luke 11:27 And while he was speaking these things, a woman raised her voice from the crowd and she said to him, “Blessing to the womb that carried you and to the breasts that suckled you.” and here is Luke 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Here, in the Greek, is a reference to Jesus' female breasts. More profoundly in Revelation 1:13: And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps (mastos) with a golden girdle. Jesus has female breasts and is wearing a bra-like girdle.
 
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ewq1938

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ewq1938

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So does that mean the Book of Revelation is nonsense too?


No, only your misinterpretations and misrepresentations of it and the Greek language.
 
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Lulav

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Hey Folks!
Just a little reminder here

I know this subject is a bit
non traditional for some
and you might feel like this
repulsed.jpg
but let's not make it personal
no one here can force you to believe anything.
I haven't read every post so someone might have mentioned it
but it might be good to study the Hebrew language in comparison to
English as far as grammatical gender usage,
it is different.​
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Consider the Greek word mastos, which always meant a female breast. Here is Luke 11:27 And while he was speaking these things, a woman raised her voice from the crowd and she said to him, “Blessing to the womb that carried you and to the breasts that suckled you.” and here is Luke 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Here, in the Greek, is a reference to Jesus' female breasts. More profoundly in Revelation 1:13: And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps (mastos) with a golden girdle. Jesus has female breasts and is wearing a bra-like girdle.

Luke 23 is about barren women, not Christ. I don't see any possible way you are making the connection you are.

"and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest." Nothing crazy going on there either.
 
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ewq1938

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Ok, well even Strong's Concordance renders "mastos" as female breast. So, that's hardly a liberal source.

No, it means breast, whether male or female. All the verse says is Jesus is wearing chest armor.
 
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ewq1938

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Hey Folks!
Just a little reminder here

I know this subject is a bit
non traditional for some
and you might feel like this
View attachment 177151
but let's not make it personal
no one here can force you to believe anything.
I haven't read every post so someone might have mentioned it
but it might be good to study the Hebrew language in comparison to
English as far as grammatical gender usage,
it is different.​


Shouldn't this type of discussion be best suited in controversial rather than general theology?
 
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FaeryChild

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Correct. Every usage of the Greek "mastos" in the NT is about female breasts. The connection is that that is the word which is in Revelation where it is used in reference to Jesus's breasts. Everything about the Hebrew language being as it is - the Greek of Revelation clearly references Jesus' breasts, being upheld by a golden girdle.

Not to mention that there is an entire tradition in the Church which has revolved around Jesus' breasts and Him nurturing us like a mother. So, it is not as if I am the first to notice this and it is also not as if it has only come about as a byproduct of Feminism.

Not only is there already a tradition for all that I have said - the truth is that Julian of Norwich and others have actually gone further and said more than what I've said. And they were not condemned as heretics for doing so. It's not about feminism or liberalism.
 
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