one for Israel

dougangel · Jun 27, 2016

I think that's unfair. It's special circumstances isn't it. It's not that simple. The mother is included giving it legitimacy.

As I have said In that case there should only be 11 tribes of Israel.

What your talking about is more a medieval European modern idea of inheritance.
I have been saying Yes in other words. Because God did it.
So yes.
I find it amusing that your not worried about the total miracle of the virgin birth. Lol

Is God aloud to pick the King of Israel ?
Answer that for me please.

dfw69 · Jun 27, 2016

dougangel said:
I think that's unfair. It's special circumstances isn't it. It's not that simple. The mother is included giving it legitimacy.

As I have said In that case there should only be 11 tribes of Israel.

What your talking about is more a medieval European modern idea of inheritance.
I have been saying Yes in other words. Because God did it.
So yes.
I find it amusing that your not worried about the total miracle of the virgin birth. Lol

Is God aloud to pick the King of Israel ?
Answer that for me please.

But is he not also the son of David through Mary?

dfw69 · Jun 27, 2016

Zoness said:
In this thread: Christian "experts" on a religion they don't follow.

lol

I never said I was an expert

Skilled maybe, but not a expert ...

dfw69 · Jun 27, 2016

gordRedeemed said:
They have already been punished. When God saw Christians going around telling an older religion that they were doing it wrong, he decided to make Mormonism. Now Christians know what it's like to have 'sect' of their faith proclaim they now have the 'true' way of doing things.

Mormonism was not created by God but man ..

dougangel · Jun 27, 2016

dfw69 said:
But is he not also the son of David through Mary?

Curse against Jechonias

Yes that why I said that. But mary is from nathan not solomon.
but there is the problem in with 1 chr 22:7-10
Jechonias (also called Jehoiachin, Jeconiah, Coniah) was an evil king and also he was in the royal line of David as it is mentioned in Matthew's genealogy. God was outraged with him and judged the royal line with a curse: no descendant of Jechonias would sit as king of Israel (Jer 22:24-30).

This seemingly contradicts the promise that God made to David that his son, Solomon's seed would always be on the throne (1Chr 22:7-10) and also would make Jesus ineligible to the throne, as he was the descendant of Jechonias.

But, since Jesus was only an adopted son and not biological son of Joseph, the curse did not affect his right to the throne as he was not of Jechonias' seed. This curse also indicates that the Messiah cannot have a human father since then the curse would pass onto him too.
This site goes into it.
http://www.complete-bible-genealogy.com/genealogy_of_jesus.htm
So Jesus satisfies all 3 conditions.

dfw69 · Jun 27, 2016

LoAmmi said:
Indeed. The line of David is from ancient times. We're waiting for a King from the line of David.

Now there is some debate if that means the person will literally be born in Bethlehem or if it just means since David comes from there the line can be said to come from there. That's neither here nor there though, really.

Need I point out the obvious that Jesus never ruled over Israel? That seems to fall short of Micah's words.

Loammi off subject , do Jews believe the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel has yet to be fulfilled ?

LoAmmi · Jun 27, 2016

dougangel said:
I think that's unfair. It's special circumstances isn't it. It's not that simple. The mother is included giving it legitimacy.

As I have said In that case there should only be 11 tribes of Israel.

I think the situations you bring up are very different. For one, Jacob relation was his grandchildren. And it comes from before the Torah was given and before the King was established. In other instances it may also be referring to a person being part of someone's household as it was a common Hebrew thing to do to call someone "son of" if they were a member of the person's household. I think the fact that the prophets harp on it being David's descendants through Solomon being so important means that it isn't just something that can be given to someone outside of that line. It isn't fair, sure, but it goes through the male line. It's from father to son, father to son. It doesn't happen to be fair.

You actually agreed that a Priest couldn't be made by adoption. I am equating the office of King to that of Priest. Not simple land inheritance or anything of the sort. King and Priest are special offices that were established with special rules.

What your talking about is more a medieval European modern idea of inheritance.
I have been saying Yes in other words. Because God did it.
So yes.

Was that so hard? I disagree with you that I'm using some kind of different idea than that which is in the Bible. My position is that the line of David is special and is not subject to being adopted into. Otherwise it would be relatively meaningless.

I find it amusing that your not worried about the total miracle of the virgin birth. Lol

Because I don't believe it happened or was in any way prophesied. You'll point out Isaiah 7:14 (I think) and I'll point out that the context of that chapter shows it's speaking about a boy born in King Ahaz's lifetime since the boy eating well was a sign to show that Ahaz's enemies would be gone.

Is God aloud to pick the King of Israel ?
Answer that for me please.

Of course. He can do whatever He wants. But if He makes Himself a liar in doing so... well... I see no reason to trust anything else He says.

danny ski · Jun 27, 2016

dougangel said:
Curse against Jechonias

Yes that why I said that. But mary is from nathan not solomon.
but there is the problem in with 1 chr 22:7-10
Jechonias (also called Jehoiachin, Jeconiah, Coniah) was an evil king and also he was in the royal line of David as it is mentioned in Matthew's genealogy. God was outraged with him and judged the royal line with a curse: no descendant of Jechonias would sit as king of Israel (Jer 22:24-30).

This seemingly contradicts the promise that God made to David that his son, Solomon's seed would always be on the throne (1Chr 22:7-10) and also would make Jesus ineligible to the throne, as he was the descendant of Jechonias.

But, since Jesus was only an adopted son and not biological son of Joseph, the curse did not affect his right to the throne as he was not of Jechonias' seed. This curse also indicates that the Messiah cannot have a human father since then the curse would pass onto him too.
This site goes into it.
http://www.complete-bible-genealogy.com/genealogy_of_jesus.htm
So Jesus satisfies all 3 conditions.

Well, since Jesus did not sit on any throne, the point is completely moot, is it not?

ViaCrucis · Jun 27, 2016

dfw69 said:
Loammi off subject , do Jews believe the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel has yet to be fulfilled ?

That tends to be, even in Christian circles, a peculiar position among Dispensationalists and other modern Futurist groups (AFAIK). And then it's just a matter of the final "seven sevens" not the entire seventy weeks.

Further, there's the issue of the identity of "messiah the prince", one line of reckoning holds that this refers to the Messiah, this is the position held by Dispensationalists and other Futurists such as Adventists; though a perhaps more scholarly opinion is that this refers to Cyrus, not the Messiah. It's easy for us to imagine, as Christians, that the term "messiah" has to refer to the Messiah (and therefore Jesus), but the term in Hebrew just means "anointed" and so there have been many messiahs in history, the kings of Israel, the kohanim, the prophets, and in this particular case Cyrus whom God calls "my messiah" as Cyrus was the vehicle by which He brought the people back into the land and under whom the Temple was rebuilt.

-CryptoLutheran

dfw69 · Jun 27, 2016

ViaCrucis said:
That tends to be, even in Christian circles, a peculiar position among Dispensationalists and other modern Futurist groups (AFAIK). And then it's just a matter of the final "seven sevens" not the entire seventy weeks.

Further, there's the issue of the identity of "messiah the prince", one line of reckoning holds that this refers to the Messiah, this is the position held by Dispensationalists and other Futurists such as Adventists; though a perhaps more scholarly opinion is that this refers to Cyrus, not the Messiah. It's easy for us to imagine, as Christians, that the term "messiah" has to refer to the Messiah (and therefore Jesus), but the term in Hebrew just means "anointed" and so there have been many messiahs in history, the kings of Israel, the kohanim, the prophets, and in this particular case Cyrus whom God calls "my messiah" as Cyrus was the vehicle by which He brought the people back into the land and under whom the Temple was rebuilt.

-CryptoLutheran

Your saying Daniels prophey is believed to be fulfilled by Cyrus among Jews ?

But there are some that believe the entire 70 sevens prophecy is still yet to come ?

4x4toy · Jun 27, 2016

John 18:36 , Luke 13:34 , Luke 20:13 .. When was the last Jewish Prophet and who ? What's the hold up

ViaCrucis · Jun 27, 2016

dfw69 said:
Your saying Daniels prophey is believed to be fulfilled by Cyrus among Jews ?

But there are some that believe the entire 70 sevens prophecy is still yet to come ?

I'm saying that the idea that Daniel's seventy weeks, even among Christians, is understood to refer to the past--not to anything still yet to come.

In reference to Judaism it is my understanding that Daniel is not counted among the prophets and so treating Daniel as one of the books of the prophets would, at a more fundamental level, be a wrong way to read the text from a Jewish POV.

-CryptoLutheran

dfw69 · Jun 27, 2016

danny ski said:
Well, since Jesus did not sit on any throne, the point is completely moot, is it not?

He sits at the right hand of God which is a throne in heaven ...

And every knee shall bow and confess Jesus is lord at judgement day ... Can I prove it? No ..we must await to behold him ...for now we live by faith

dougangel · Jun 27, 2016

danny ski said:
Well, since Jesus did not sit on any throne, the point is completely moot, is it not?

Well No he is on the throne at the right hand of God

dfw69 · Jun 27, 2016

ViaCrucis said:
I'm saying that the idea that Daniel's seventy weeks, even among Christians, is understood to refer to the past--not to anything still yet to come.

In reference to Judaism it is my understanding that Daniel is not counted among the prophets and so treating Daniel as one of the books of the prophets would, at a more fundamental level, be a wrong way to read the text from a Jewish POV.

-CryptoLutheran

Oh I did not know that Daniel was not accepted .... was it because they expected the messiah to come from the restoration of the last temple and since he did not should up from their standpoint then Daniel was seen as false prophet?

LoAmmi · Jun 27, 2016

4x4toy said:
John 18:36 , Luke 13:34 , Luke 20:13 .. When was the last Jewish Prophet and who ? What's the hold up

Malachi.

What's the hold up on this Jesus return? Soon right? So between the last Jewish prophet and today is "soon".

dfw69 · Jun 27, 2016

LoAmmi said:
Malachi.

What's the hold up on this Jesus return? Soon right? So between the last Jewish prophet and today is "soon".

Well of my theory is correct I can tell you he will be coming soon like around 2030

Not to sit on the throne of David though..the Jews are not ready to recieve him yet ..He comes to rapture all willing to behold his father in heaven

4x4toy · Jun 27, 2016

LoAmmi said:
Malachi.

What's the hold up on this Jesus return? Soon right? So between the last Jewish prophet and today is "soon".

Jeremiah 2:5

LoAmmi · Jun 27, 2016

dfw69 said:
Well of my theory is correct I can tell you he will be coming soon like around 2030

Not to sit on the throne of David though..the Jews are not ready to recieve him yet ..He comes to rapture all willing to behold his father in heaven

Don't worry. When that doesn't happen in 2030, I won't say anything to make you feel bad.

LoAmmi · Jun 27, 2016

4x4toy said:
Jeremiah 2:5

Zechariah 8:23

one for Israel

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