End Times Spirit of Antichrist's New Face is Zionism and It's Supporters

Biblewriter · Jun 26, 2016

precepts said:
All these errors are based on one misinterpreted chapter - Romans 11 - which seems to be a pattern when it comes to misinterpreting scripture, one verse versus multiple verses that prove otherwise.

Which Isa--h also prophesy about.

These verses are what the supporters of Zionism base their claim on, but they misinterpret the verses to mean that God will save all of Israel when the verses are plainly saying that a "remnant" of Israel would be saved in the day that Christ takes away their sins when he establishes the new covenant.

The turning away of ungodliness from Jacob by the "Deliverer" was the establishment of the New Covenant. The Remnant saved, the "all of Israel saved" when the "times of the Gentiles" was fulfilled, was the day of the New Covenant. Nothing in these verses suggest a 3rd temple and a future reestablished nation receiving Christ as fulfillment of these prophecies.

The spirit of antichrist has deceived some into thinking he is for some that deny the Father and the Son, deceived to the point of causing a world war for a temple mount.

The spirit of antichrist has a new face!

I did not really notice this thread until today. It starts with a gross error in the OP, the portion I have quoted here.

While the people that are demonized as "Zionists" indeed quote Romans 11, pointing out that what it actually says is the very opposite of what this poster and many others claim it means, this is actually one of the less significant scriptures they regularly use.

The scriptures very plainly and explicitly say, in clear, plain, words, not in symbols that must be interpreted, that in a future day that the "mountains of Israel," along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around-- Ezekiel 36:4 will again be "inhabited" by "all the house of Israel, all of it." Ezekiel 36:10

Again Ezekiel 47:15-20 goes so far as to explicitly define the borders of the land in that future day. These are only two of a very great number of scriptures that very explicitly state this. In order to deny that this will actually happen, is is necessary to deny that literally hundreds of scriptures simply do not mean what they explicitly say.

The end time scenario presented in the scriptures opens with them Jews in their ancient homeland. As they had been expelled from that land nearly two thousand years earlier, the twentieth century return of the Jews to their land was necessary for the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. This is not some modern idea of the despised Dispenationalists, but has always been well known to students of Bible prophecy. It was clearly taught by many English expositors, dating back even to the sixteenth century, although the earliest such expositors whose work I have personally studied, William Lowth, did not publish his famous work until the early 1700s.

But although this scenario opens with the Jews in their land, it very clearly describes that as there in a state of rebellion and unbelief. This, by the way, is exactly what we see today. This rebellion and unbelief will be the reason for the great troubles that will come upon them, as described in so very much of end time prophecy. But the prophecies do not just describe their coming great affliction, but explicitly state that this will be successful, and that the few of them that will survive will turn to the Lord with their whole hearts. You will find this, for instance in Isaiah, where we read, "And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning." Isaiah 4:3-4

Again, we find this in Zechariah, where we read, "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves." Zechariah 12:10-14

But these scriptures speak only of the Jews, the modern descendants of the ancient tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with some of the tribe of Levi. Isaiah 66 very plainly declares that the rest of Israel will be brought back after the Lord has come "with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire." Isaiah 66:15 This is clearly stated in verses 18-22 of the same chapter.

But Ezekiel 20 just as clearly states that when God brings them back, he will "purge the rebels from among" them, explicitly stating that "I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel." Ezekiel 20:38

So it is utter nonsense to even imagine that the scriptures do not teach a future restoration of Israel, both to her ancient homeland, and to a true and heartfelt faith in The Lord Jesus Christ.

Straightshot · Jun 26, 2016

Good post BW .... and true

Scrubbing Israel from future prophecy is the rage today by most of the divides of the professing "church"

Hard at work they are, but to no avail .... the related scriptures on the matter are not to be denied

precepts · Jun 26, 2016

Biblewriter said:
I did not really notice this thread until today. It starts with a gross error in the OP, the portion I have quoted here.

While the people that are demonized as "Zionists" indeed quote Romans 11, pointing out that what it actually says is the very opposite of what this poster and many others claim it means, this is actually one of the less significant scriptures they regularly use.

First of all no one is being demonized. The facts are pointed out that he who denies the Son denies the Father. Take offense with God.

Biblewriter said:
The scriptures very plainly and explicitly say, in clear, plain, words, not in symbols that must be interpreted, that in a future day that the "mountains of Israel," along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around-- Ezekiel 36:4 will again be "inhabited" by "all the house of Israel, all of it." Ezekiel 36:10

It would be a waste of my time to try to convince you of the truth, but if the text was so clear, you wouldn't be taking it out of context. It's not as if the prophecy couldn't have been fulfilled post Babylon, Israel "again inhabited by 'all the house of Israel,' all of it," which does fit the context. :clap:

Biblewriter said:
Again Ezekiel 47:15-20 goes so far as to explicitly define the borders of the land in that future day. These are only two of a very great number of scriptures that very explicitly state this. In order to deny that this will actually happen, is is necessary to deny that literally hundreds of scriptures simply do not mean what they explicitly say.

I don't have to deny anything. But until you realize that many OT prophecies have double meanings, you will always misinterpret prophecy. For example, this prophecy could be referring to Israel returning post Babylon mingled with prophecies of Christ's heavenly kingdom being set up and never being plucked up again because God speaks in parables, you know.

Biblewriter said:
The end time scenario presented in the scriptures opens with them Jews in their ancient homeland. As they had been expelled from that land nearly two thousand years earlier, the twentieth century return of the Jews to their land was necessary for the fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

That is your opinion. I find it illogical to omit/ignore the post-Babylon return of Israel, a historical fact, for a fictitious 2,000+ yrs after return because the nation of Israel didn't even exist as a nation for 2,000 yrs. According to scripture, Israel was formed in the 2,648th yr of creation while the world is a little older than 6,000yrs. The 2,000 years from a little older than 6,000 yrs old world equals Israel existing for less than 1500 yrs because 2,648 from 4,000 is 1,352 plus years. Two thousand yrs is not a gap in the mind of a logical thinker.

Biblewriter said:
This is not some modern idea of the despised Dispenationalists, but has always been well known to students of Bible prophecy. It was clearly taught by many English expositors, dating back even to the sixteenth century, although the earliest such expositors whose work I have personally studied, William Lowth, did not publish his famous work until the early 1700s.

And it doesn't strike you as strange that it's a recent interpretation? The spirit of antichrist doesn't adhere to sound doctrine. The fact that no one, not even Christ, the disciples, nor the scriptures specifically and plainly preached Dispensation should be a clue. If it wasn't preached in the beginning means it's not of God.

Biblewriter said:
But although this scenario opens with the Jews in their land, it very clearly describes that as there in a state of rebellion and unbelief. This, by the way, is exactly what we see today.

Are you telling me a bed time story? This is your opinion.

Biblewriter said:
This rebellion and unbelief will be the reason for the great troubles that will come upon them, as described in so very much of end time prophecy.

Your opinion once again.

Biblewriter said:
But the prophecies do not just describe their coming great affliction, but explicitly state that this will be successful, and that the few of them that will survive will turn to the Lord with their whole hearts. You will find this, for instance in Isaiah, where we read, "And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning." Isaiah 4:3-4

Again, it could be referring to post Babylon or Christ's heavenly kingdom, definitely not one with a 2,000 yrs old gap in it. Your interpretation is taking the wisdom out of everything.

Biblewriter said:
Again, we find this in Zechariah, where we read, "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves." Zechariah 12:10-14

And it's possible in the future? the house of David, Nathan, Levi, etc?

Biblewriter said:
But these scriptures speak only of the Jews, the modern descendants of the ancient tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with some of the tribe of Levi. Isaiah 66 very plainly declares that the rest of Israel will be brought back after the Lord has come "with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire." Isaiah 66:15 This is clearly stated in verses 18-22 of the same chapter.

Two thousand years isn't a gap. You're taking the verses out of context.

Biblewriter said:
But Ezekiel 20 just as clearly states that when God brings them back, he will "purge the rebels from among" them, explicitly stating that "I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel." Ezekiel 20:38

Again a reference to the post-Babylon exodus and the entering in to heaven, the separation of the sheep from the goats.

Biblewriter said:
So it is utter nonsense to even imagine that the scriptures do not teach a future restoration of Israel, both to her ancient homeland, and to a true and heartfelt faith in The Lord Jesus Christ.

It is utter ignorance to think that is what the scriptures are saying when there are so many different interpretations, utter nonsense to think so when you can't even prove it in a court of law because it's all speculation, not even a shred of circumstantial evidence to prove your case, just pure speculation! :oldthumbsup:

precepts · Jun 26, 2016

Straightshot said:
Good post BW .... and true

Scrubbing Israel from future prophecy is the rage today by most of the divides of the professing "church"

Hard at work they are, but to no avail .... the related scriptures on the matter are not to be denied

That is so funny since you can't prove your position true in a court of law. ^_^

NightHawkeye · Jun 26, 2016

precepts said:
That is so funny since you can't prove your position true in a court of law.

LOL, noting that Jesus was never much concerned with proving anything in a court of law.

Biblewriter · Jun 26, 2016

precepts said:
And it doesn't strike you as strange that it's a recent interpretation? The spirit of antichrist doesn't adhere to sound doctrine. The fact that no one, not even Christ, the disciples, nor the scriptures specifically and plainly preached Dispensation should be a clue. If it wasn't preached in the beginning means it's not of God.

Actually, your system of applying these prophecies to the post Babylon exile did not even arise until around the time of Jerome. The later writers I was speaking of were only the relatively modern ones I personally know about that explicitly spoke of the Jews returning to their homeland.

Futurism, including a literal interpretation of the thousand years of Revelation 20, was clearly taught by almost every Christian commentator on Bible prophecy during the first four centuries of the church.

precepts · Jun 27, 2016

NightHawkeye said:
LOL, noting that Jesus was never much concerned with proving anything in a court of law.

LOL, which is not the point. ^_^

Hieronymus · Jun 27, 2016

parousia70 said:
I know!
... I'm eager to see how the "can't you see that the world is racing toward a OWG" crowd spins the Brit's exit from the EU...

Order out of chaos.
Maybe new world order out of chaos.

EU falling Probably going to be a lot of "nothing to see here folks... But, o m gee! look over THERE!"

oops! doh!

I'm gonna need a lot of popcorn i think

Yeah, made of GMO corn and sweetened with aspartame..

Hieronymus · Jun 27, 2016

Straightshot said:
Good post BW .... and true

Scrubbing Israel from future prophecy is the rage today by most of the divides of the professing "church"

Hard at work they are, but to no avail .... the related scriptures on the matter are not to be denied

Isn't Zion(ism) already the woman that rides the beast (world power)?

precepts · Jun 27, 2016

Biblewriter said:
Actually, your system of applying these prophecies to the post Babylon exile did not even arise until around the time of Jerome. The later writers I was speaking of were only the relatively modern ones I personally know about that explicitly spoke of the Jews returning to their homeland.

Still your interpretation is recent and wasn't taught. Mine was never the issue, though I'm sure Christ taught his followers how to understand all those OT prophecies.

Biblewriter said:
Futurism, including a literal interpretation of the thousand years of Revelation 20, was clearly taught by almost every Christian commentator on Bible prophecy during the first four centuries of the church.

The spirit of antichrist, no doubt, because their teachings are wrong. The Beast doesn't come from the tribe of Dan, and they didn't receive the gospel in Apostolic succession because if they did, they would have also inherited the date from creation, which they didn't, but adopted the Roman Egyptian solar calendar that we have now.

Biblewriter · Jun 27, 2016

The claim that the prophecies about a future restoration of Israel were either fulfilled in the return from Babylon or refer symbolically to Christianity was invented by the Roman Catholic interpreters in a vain attempt to escape the plain force of a very large number of explicitly stated scriptures. Their system of interpretation had no room for a future return of Israel, so they invented endless excuses to get around what these scriptures so very plainly and repeatedly say.

But the language of these prophecies simply does not allow for such nonsense. The promised return is a return of absolutely all of the ancient nation of Israel, and after it takes place, the Lord will not hide his face from them any more.

"Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name-- after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, then they shall know that I am the LORD their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer. And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,' says the Lord GOD." Ezekiel 39:25-29

We see this again in Deuteronomy:

"Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God drives you, and you return to the LORD your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul, that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you. If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you. Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. Deuteronomy 30:1-5

Notice that this does not say "if," but "when" they "return to the Lord" their God. This is simply one of many prophecies that promise a future repentance of Israel.

The return from Babylon involved only a very small fraction of Judah, and none of Israel. and the few that did physically return to the land never returned to the Lord their God with all their hearts and with all their souls.

Again, we read:
Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore." ' " Ezekiel 37:21-28

Here, again we see the explicitly stated promise that they will be restored to the Lord their God. But we also see two other explicitly stated promises. The first of these is that the two ancient nations of Judah and Israel will be reunited. This is something that has never happened. But the second is far more important. This is the promise that after that time they would "dwell" in the land, "they, their children, and their children's children, forever." It is an absolutely known fact of history that after the return from Babylon, they were once again cast out of the land. So it is absolutely certain that this prophecy was not fulfilled in the return from Babylon.

I could go on and on, but it would be pointless. For those who have chosen to reject the plainly stated word of God will never bow to its pronouncements, regardless of how many are presented. They have chosen to give greater credence to their own interpretations of the meanings of a relatively small number of scriptures than to the explicit statements of a far greater number of other scriptures.

NightHawkeye · Jun 27, 2016

precepts said:
LOL, which is not the point.

Correction. For those who follow the messiah, it is a major point.

Straightshot · Jun 27, 2016

"The claim that the prophecies about a future restoration of Israel were either fulfilled in the return from Babylon or refer symbolically to Christianity was invented by the Roman Catholic interpreters in a vain attempt to escape the plain force of a very large number of explicitly stated scriptures. Their system of interpretation had no room for a future return of Israel, so they invented endless excuses to get around what these scriptures so very plainly and repeatedly say"

Briefly ....

Preterism was an early invention of some of the professing "church" .... when the Lord had not yet returned as promised humans decided to take advantage and control of the Christian religion themselves

The RCC and others still cling to the doctrine of preterism which nullifies any future fulfillment of prophecy .... it was all finished in 70 AD they say

This then conveniently allows for these man made religious organizations to proceed with their own proprietary dogmas which have led them into degradation and apostasy

precepts · Jun 27, 2016

NightHawkeye said:
Correction. For those who follow the messiah, it is a major point.

It is not a major point because it has nothing to do with proving your interpretation of prophecy in a court of law, which is the case, not Christ, not whatever you're trying to make it out to be.

Everybody is arguing and trying to convince others that their interpretation is correct, but none can prove their case in a court of law. And why? Because they have no proof, only speculation and what they think, which is messed up!

precepts · Jun 27, 2016

Straightshot said:
"The claim that the prophecies about a future restoration of Israel were either fulfilled in the return from Babylon or refer symbolically to Christianity was invented by the Roman Catholic interpreters in a vain attempt to escape the plain force of a very large number of explicitly stated scriptures. Their system of interpretation had no room for a future return of Israel, so they invented endless excuses to get around what these scriptures so very plainly and repeatedly say"

Briefly ....

Preterism was an early invention of some of the professing "church" .... when the Lord had not yet returned as promised humans decided to take advantage and control of the Christian religion themselves

The RCC and others still cling to the doctrine of preterism which nullifies any future fulfillment of prophecy .... it was all finished in 70 AD they say

This then conveniently allows for these man made religious organizations to proceed with their own proprietary dogmas which have led them into degradation and apostasy

What you say makes no sense to me since I'm not a Catholic and I didn't get my understanding from them. I read the scriptures for myself and found the truth.

Plus, you bad mouthing Preterism makes even less sense since you can't even prove Preterism wrong. You're just basically giving your opinion, a bad one at that, without any evidence to back it up, on Preterism, and sometimes I wonder why you do it.

precepts · Jun 27, 2016

Biblewriter said:
The claim that the prophecies about a future restoration of Israel were either fulfilled in the return from Babylon or refer symbolically to Christianity was invented by the Roman Catholic interpreters in a vain attempt to escape the plain force of a very large number of explicitly stated scriptures. Their system of interpretation had no room for a future return of Israel, so they invented endless excuses to get around what these scriptures so very plainly and repeatedly say.

We've been thru this before. I read the book for myself and came to the same conclusion. The RCC can't create anything that's not written. Plus, I doubt they were the first to correctly interpret Dan's 4th beast kingdom's 11 horns with Revelation's 11 horns.

Biblewriter said:
But the language of these prophecies simply does not allow for such nonsense. The promised return is a return of absolutely all of the ancient nation of Israel, and after it takes place, the Lord will not hide his face from them any more.

Like I said before, you take the wisdom out of everything.

Biblewriter said:
"Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name-- after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, then they shall know that I am the LORD their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer. And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,' says the Lord GOD." Ezekiel 39:25-29

We see this again in Deuteronomy:

"Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God drives you, and you return to the LORD your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul, that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you. If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you. Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. Deuteronomy 30:1-5

Notice that this does not say "if," but "when" they "return to the Lord" their God. This is simply one of many prophecies that promise a future repentance of Israel.

If you think these prophecies are future, you are denying Christ died and instituted the new covenant. The old covenant is no more. No Jews to fulfill any prophecy because there is no more old covenant to keep up or to be blessed by God. You are denying God by contradicting him just because you think scripture reads one way, ignoring and contradicting the NT while doing so.

Biblewriter said:
The return from Babylon involved only a very small fraction of Judah, and none of Israel. and the few that did physically return to the land never returned to the Lord their God with all their hearts and with all their souls.

We have been thru this before. It is the spirit of antichrist propaganda! Which nation held captive in Babylon didn't return to their homeland after Babylon was destroyed by the Medes? None.

I have to pen all this out to make my point clear:

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Didn't you mention earlier about God weeding out the sinners saying it was future? Well, here's the context, the double meaning i keep telling you that refers to both post-Babylon and to Revelation's heavenly events simultaneously.

The chapter continues:

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Isa 13:14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
Isa 13:15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
Isa 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
Isa 13:18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

Now, is this not referring to Revelation's darkening of the sun, stars, and moon mingled with the fall of Babylon? Doesn't it say "every" man will flee out of Babylon into his own land in verse 14, or am I seeing things?

Again here is the double reference to post-Babylon and Revelation:

Jer 51:6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.
Jer 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
Jer 51:8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.

Again we see the reference to earthly Babylon paralleling Revelation's heavenly event.

Biblewriter said:
Again, we read:
Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore." ' " Ezekiel 37:21-28

And you're telling me you don't see the double meaning of deliverance from Babylon mingled with the final heavenly deliverance? The rational conclusion is that the OT is no more, the double meaning is historic mixed with the heavenly since the old covenant is no more, the major component.

Biblewriter said:
Here, again we see the explicitly stated promise that they will be restored to the Lord their God. But we also see two other explicitly stated promises. The first of these is that the two ancient nations of Judah and Israel will be reunited. This is something that has never happened. But the second is far more important. This is the promise that after that time they would "dwell" in the land, "they, their children, and their children's children, forever." It is an absolutely known fact of history that after the return from Babylon, they were once again cast out of the land. So it is absolutely certain that this prophecy was not fulfilled in the return from Babylon.

You are absolutely certain about something someone told you when none of you were present to be absolutely sure it didn't happen? The only thing absolutely certain is the old covenant being no more, which definitely isn't hearsay.

Biblewriter said:
I could go on and on, but it would be pointless. For those who have chosen to reject the plainly stated word of God will never bow to its pronouncements, regardless of how many are presented. They have chosen to give greater credence to their own interpretations of the meanings of a relatively small number of scriptures than to the explicit statements of a far greater number of other scriptures.

It makes no sense to me to think God is still in the old covenant when he said back in the new that he who denies the Son denies the Father. I don't see the logic in putting my understanding over God's nature. :pray:

See if you can find any common ground between what Paul says here and your interpretation:

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

What is the doctrine of Christ that we are to abide in that if you don't abide in it you don't have the Father and Son? (vs 9) :groupray:

Biblewriter · Jun 27, 2016

precepts said:
Plus, you bad mouthing Preterism makes even less sense since you can't even prove Preterism wrong. You're just basically giving your opinion, a bad one at that without any evidence to back it up, on Preterism, and sometimes I wonder why you do it.

Simply believing the scriptures is not interpreting them.

I have quoted two scriptures that expressly state that the promised return was to be a return of absolutely all of Israel. And I have quoted the scripture that expressly states that this return was to take place after the Lord had come "with fire, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire."

And it is actual fact that the return after the captivity in Babylon was not a return of absolutely all of Israel. And it is actual fact that the Lord has not yet come "with fire, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire."

These are not interpretations. They are actual facts. And the evidence that these hard, cold, facts do not match the scriptures I have quoted would indeed hold up in a court of law.

The truth is that you are interpreting the prophetic scriptures to mean something entirely different from what they say. But I am not interpreting them at all. I am simply pointing out what they actually say.

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: Isaiah 29:16

Hazrus · Jun 27, 2016

I'm a partial preterist. We also believe Jesus will return for absolutely all of Israel.... the Church!

precepts · Jun 28, 2016

Biblewriter said:
Simply believing the scriptures is not interpreting them.

So why all the many different interpretations?

Biblewriter said:
I have quoted two scriptures that expressly state that the promised return was to be a return of absolutely all of Israel. And I have quoted the scripture that expressly states that this return was to take place after the Lord had come "with fire, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire."

And I have posted verses proving that "every" man went back to their own land after Babylon's fall mingled with end time references. Why didn't you address them instead of repeating what you said before?

Biblewriter said:
And it is actual fact that the return after the captivity in Babylon was not a return of absolutely all of Israel. And it is actual fact that the Lord has not yet come "with fire, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire."

These are not interpretations. They are actual facts. And the evidence that these hard, cold, facts do not match the scriptures I have quoted would indeed hold up in a court of law.

The truth is that you are interpreting the prophetic scriptures to mean something entirely different from what they say. But I am not interpreting them at all. I am simply pointing out what they actually say.

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: Isaiah 29:16

You cannot address my points, and I don't see the rationality in you ignoring my reply to repeat what you said before as if I didn't address what you said before in my reply. Where''s the logic in it? I addressed you points and proved them wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt, but you totally ignored mine to repeat your claim again without any regards for mine? That's not right.

precepts · Jun 28, 2016

Hazrus said:
I'm a partial preterist. We also believe Jesus will return for absolutely all of Israel.... the Church!

Absolutely all of Israel being saved is irrational since we all know man is saved by his works and not by his nationality.

The "all of Israel" being saved is referencing the 1st resurrection, when "all" the righteous will be saved, the separation of the sheep from the goats.

All Jews are not saints. That's just common sense.

I don't seem how some base their whole belief on one singular verse.

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