Plato's Timaeus

anonymouswho · May 28, 2016

Plato's Timaeus....

When the father creator saw the creature which he had made moving and living, the created image of the eternal (aidos: imperceptible) gods, he rejoiced, and in his joy determined to make the copy still more like the original; and as this was eternal (aidios: imperceptible), he sought to make the universe eternal (aionios: age-enduring/pertaining to ages), so far as might be. Now the nature of the ideal being was everlasting (aionios: age-enduring/pertaining to ages), but to bestow this attribute in its fulness upon a creature was impossible. Wherefore he resolved to have a moving image of eternity (aion: the ages), and when he set in order the heaven, he made this image eternal (aion: ages), but moving according to number, while eternity (aionios: pertaining to the ages/the ages as a whole) itself rests in unity; and this image we call time. For there were no days and nights and months and years before the heaven was created, but when he constructed the heaven he created them also. They are all parts of time, and the past and future are created species of time, which we unconsciously but wrongly transfer to the eternal (aidios: imperceptible) essence; for we say that he "was," he "is," he "will be," but the truth is that "is" alone is properly attributed to him, and that "was" and "will be" only to be spoken of becoming in time, for they are motions, but that which is immovably the same cannot become older or younger by time, nor ever did or has become, or hereafter will be, older or younger, nor is subject at all to any of those states which affect moving and sensible things and of which generation is the cause. These are the forms of time, which imitates eternity (aion: the ages) and revolves according to a law of number. Moreover, when we say that what has become is become and what becomes is becoming, and that what will become is about to become and that the non-existent is non-existent- all these are inaccurate modes of expression. But perhaps this whole subject will be more suitably discussed on some other occasion."

https://books.google.com/books?id=i...father saw what he had created moving&f=false

http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato-time.asp

According to the theologians, Plato used aidios, aionios, and aion to all mean eternal. I believe what Plato is actually saying already contradicts itself (which Timaeus admits in his dialogue), but I have to give him at least a little credit. If all these words mean eternal, this is incomprehensible and the dumbest thing Plato ever wrote.

Plato is saying the creator is aidios (which means imperceptible, but is probably the closest word Plato could use to mean eternal), and he wanted to make an image of the imperceptible gods. Time began when the creator created the heavens, so he was happy when he saw his creation moving, because he himself was unable to move. The ideal creature was aionios (age-enduring/pertaining to the ages), but this was impossible. So the creator made an image of the ages. The ages move according to number, but aionios (pertaining to the ages/the ages as a whole) rest in unity (they are set and determined).

He then says aionios and the aions are parts of time, but we unconsciously and incorrectly attribute these words to the aidios (imperceptible) creator. We say things like "he was" or "he will be", but the correct attribute should be "he is", because "was" and "will be" can only be attributed to that which moves. Plato literally says that aionios and aion do not mean aidios because they are parts of time and movement!

If this is not the correct interpretation, and Plato meant eternal for every aion, aionios, and aidios, then he is saying we wrongly transfer the "eternal which moves and is a part of time" with the "eternal that is unmovable and exists outside of time".

He would also be saying that the creator, who is eternal, sought to make his creation eternal, "but this is impossible". So the creator made an image of eternity, and when he set everything in order, he made the image eternal. How? Plato just said this was impossible even for the creator to do.

There is only one actual problem with Timaeus. Plato gives attributes of an unchanging and unmoving creator as though the unmoving is able to move (how did the unchanging creator ever 'decide' to create, and how was the unmovable creator able to do anything?)

From this, we get Aristotle's "unmoving-mover"....the god that exists "outside of time". This is the "wisdom of the wise"....

""The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, And what kind of wisdom do they have?" Jeremiah 8:9

Thank you.

anonymouswho · Jun 14, 2016

Is this Christianity's eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, impassible, immutable, self-existent, self-sufficient, loving, just and holy god?

tucker58 · Jun 16, 2016

anonymouswho said:
Plato's Timaeus....

When the father creator saw the creature which he had made moving and living, the created image of the eternal (aidos: imperceptible) gods, he rejoiced, and in his joy determined to make the copy still more like the original; and as this was eternal (aidios: imperceptible), he sought to make the universe eternal (aionios: age-enduring/pertaining to ages), so far as might be. Now the nature of the ideal being was everlasting (aionios: age-enduring/pertaining to ages), but to bestow this attribute in its fulness upon a creature was impossible. Wherefore he resolved to have a moving image of eternity (aion: the ages), and when he set in order the heaven, he made this image eternal (aion: ages), but moving according to number, while eternity (aionios: pertaining to the ages/the ages as a whole) itself rests in unity; and this image we call time. For there were no days and nights and months and years before the heaven was created, but when he constructed the heaven he created them also. They are all parts of time, and the past and future are created species of time, which we unconsciously but wrongly transfer to the eternal (aidios: imperceptible) essence; for we say that he "was," he "is," he "will be," but the truth is that "is" alone is properly attributed to him, and that "was" and "will be" only to be spoken of becoming in time, for they are motions, but that which is immovably the same cannot become older or younger by time, nor ever did or has become, or hereafter will be, older or younger, nor is subject at all to any of those states which affect moving and sensible things and of which generation is the cause. These are the forms of time, which imitates eternity (aion: the ages) and revolves according to a law of number. Moreover, when we say that what has become is become and what becomes is becoming, and that what will become is about to become and that the non-existent is non-existent- all these are inaccurate modes of expression. But perhaps this whole subject will be more suitably discussed on some other occasion."

https://books.google.com/books?id=i1tNI9646Q4C&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=when+the+creator+father+saw+what+he+had+created+moving&source=bl&ots=8QIzEevUIe&sig=eF780y9S5_Yp7XbXiR7DqJ6rqmM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUvav87_vMAhVE6iYKHUz1AFcQ6AEIHzAB#v=onepage&q=when the creator father saw what he had created moving&f=false

http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato-time.asp

According to the theologians, Plato used aidios, aionios, and aion to all mean eternal. I believe what Plato is actually saying already contradicts itself (which Timaeus admits in his dialogue), but I have to give him at least a little credit. If all these words mean eternal, this is incomprehensible and the dumbest thing Plato ever wrote.

Plato is saying the creator is aidios (which means imperceptible, but is probably the closest word Plato could use to mean eternal), and he wanted to make an image of the imperceptible gods. Time began when the creator created the heavens, so he was happy when he saw his creation moving, because he himself was unable to move. The ideal creature was aionios (age-enduring/pertaining to the ages), but this was impossible. So the creator made an image of the ages. The ages move according to number, but aionios (pertaining to the ages/the ages as a whole) rest in unity (they are set and determined).

He then says aionios and the aions are parts of time, but we unconsciously and incorrectly attribute these words to the aidios (imperceptible) creator. We say things like "he was" or "he will be", but the correct attribute should be "he is", because "was" and "will be" can only be attributed to that which moves. Plato literally says that aionios and aion do not mean aidios because they are parts of time and movement!

If this is not the correct interpretation, and Plato meant eternal for every aion, aionios, and aidios, then he is saying we wrongly transfer the "eternal which moves and is a part of time" with the "eternal that is unmovable and exists outside of time".

He would also be saying that the creator, who is eternal, sought to make his creation eternal, "but this is impossible". So the creator made an image of eternity, and when he set everything in order, he made the image eternal. How? Plato just said this was impossible even for the creator to do.

There is only one actual problem with Timaeus. Plato gives attributes of an unchanging and unmoving creator as though the unmoving is able to move (how did the unchanging creator ever 'decide' to create, and how was the unmovable creator able to do anything?)

From this, we get Aristotle's "unmoving-mover"....the god that exists "outside of time". This is the "wisdom of the wise"....

""The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, And what kind of wisdom do they have?" Jeremiah 8:9

Thank you.

Anonymouswho, my suggestion would be to read Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" and then try to apply the line of logic that you are creating to it, with the understanding that the Heaven that Jesus was talking about is outside of the cave. And in that reality time does not exist because there is no physical. And if one believes that there is nothing but the physical, then they can never understand. They are trapped in the cave and the cave is the only thing that can be real.

And Anonymouswho, those who walk with the Holy Spirit understand "timelessness" and those that do not walk with the Holy Spirit do not understand because "timelessness" is a "spirit" reality.

ScottA · Jun 16, 2016

anonymouswho said:
Plato's Timaeus....

When the father creator saw the creature which he had made moving and living, the created image of the eternal (aidos: imperceptible) gods, he rejoiced, and in his joy determined to make the copy still more like the original; and as this was eternal (aidios: imperceptible), he sought to make the universe eternal (aionios: age-enduring/pertaining to ages), so far as might be. Now the nature of the ideal being was everlasting (aionios: age-enduring/pertaining to ages), but to bestow this attribute in its fulness upon a creature was impossible. Wherefore he resolved to have a moving image of eternity (aion: the ages), and when he set in order the heaven, he made this image eternal (aion: ages), but moving according to number, while eternity (aionios: pertaining to the ages/the ages as a whole) itself rests in unity; and this image we call time. For there were no days and nights and months and years before the heaven was created, but when he constructed the heaven he created them also. They are all parts of time, and the past and future are created species of time, which we unconsciously but wrongly transfer to the eternal (aidios: imperceptible) essence; for we say that he "was," he "is," he "will be," but the truth is that "is" alone is properly attributed to him, and that "was" and "will be" only to be spoken of becoming in time, for they are motions, but that which is immovably the same cannot become older or younger by time, nor ever did or has become, or hereafter will be, older or younger, nor is subject at all to any of those states which affect moving and sensible things and of which generation is the cause. These are the forms of time, which imitates eternity (aion: the ages) and revolves according to a law of number. Moreover, when we say that what has become is become and what becomes is becoming, and that what will become is about to become and that the non-existent is non-existent- all these are inaccurate modes of expression. But perhaps this whole subject will be more suitably discussed on some other occasion."

https://books.google.com/books?id=i1tNI9646Q4C&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=when+the+creator+father+saw+what+he+had+created+moving&source=bl&ots=8QIzEevUIe&sig=eF780y9S5_Yp7XbXiR7DqJ6rqmM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUvav87_vMAhVE6iYKHUz1AFcQ6AEIHzAB#v=onepage&q=when the creator father saw what he had created moving&f=false

http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato-time.asp

According to the theologians, Plato used aidios, aionios, and aion to all mean eternal. I believe what Plato is actually saying already contradicts itself (which Timaeus admits in his dialogue), but I have to give him at least a little credit. If all these words mean eternal, this is incomprehensible and the dumbest thing Plato ever wrote.

Plato is saying the creator is aidios (which means imperceptible, but is probably the closest word Plato could use to mean eternal), and he wanted to make an image of the imperceptible gods. Time began when the creator created the heavens, so he was happy when he saw his creation moving, because he himself was unable to move. The ideal creature was aionios (age-enduring/pertaining to the ages), but this was impossible. So the creator made an image of the ages. The ages move according to number, but aionios (pertaining to the ages/the ages as a whole) rest in unity (they are set and determined).

He then says aionios and the aions are parts of time, but we unconsciously and incorrectly attribute these words to the aidios (imperceptible) creator. We say things like "he was" or "he will be", but the correct attribute should be "he is", because "was" and "will be" can only be attributed to that which moves. Plato literally says that aionios and aion do not mean aidios because they are parts of time and movement!

If this is not the correct interpretation, and Plato meant eternal for every aion, aionios, and aidios, then he is saying we wrongly transfer the "eternal which moves and is a part of time" with the "eternal that is unmovable and exists outside of time".

He would also be saying that the creator, who is eternal, sought to make his creation eternal, "but this is impossible". So the creator made an image of eternity, and when he set everything in order, he made the image eternal. How? Plato just said this was impossible even for the creator to do.

There is only one actual problem with Timaeus. Plato gives attributes of an unchanging and unmoving creator as though the unmoving is able to move (how did the unchanging creator ever 'decide' to create, and how was the unmovable creator able to do anything?)

From this, we get Aristotle's "unmoving-mover"....the god that exists "outside of time". This is the "wisdom of the wise"....

""The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, And what kind of wisdom do they have?" Jeremiah 8:9

Thank you.

Time does not set the Creator free, but rather, it is the Creator who sets the captives of time free. Plato's imagination was an historic high point in human philosophy...but he had it backwards. Geppetto was more accurate.

anonymouswho · Jun 17, 2016

tucker58 said:
Anonymouswho, my suggestion would be to read Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" and then try to apply the line of logic that you are creating to it, with the understanding that the Heaven that Jesus was talking about is outside of the cave. And in that reality time does not exist because there is no physical. And if one believes that there is nothing but the physical, then they can never understand. They are trapped in the cave and the cave is the only thing that can be real.

And Anonymouswho, those who walk with the Holy Spirit understand "timelessness" and those that do not walk with the Holy Spirit do not understand because "timelessness" is a "spirit" reality.

Thank you for the reply tucker. I'll check that out, but as you may know, Plato's philosophy is pretty meaningless to me. It's fun and all, but he has a totally different god than I do, so I do not expect him to describe my God. John the baptist prepared the way (Yeshua) of YHVH, not Plato, Philo, or any of the Stoic philosophers.

The Scriptures never speak of such "timelessness". This idea of timelessness comes from the fact that aionios is the adjective form of aion, which means age. Because words with the -less suffix are adjectives, clever theologians have made up this idea of timelessness being a proper interpretation of agelessness. However, the -less suffix does not mean "existing at all time" or "an infinite amount of time". It means "NO-time". If someone is homeless, we would not say he has an infinite amount of homes. If something is priceless, we would not say the amount of infinity dollars would cover the cost. We mean there is no price that would cover it.

Time is the measurement of movement within space. Imagine a sundial tracking the movement of the sun. If we stare at the sundial and the shadow never moves, it's because the sun is not moving. Therefore, there is no measurement because nothing happened. If the shadow moves, then as long as the appropriate marks are recording the motion's progress, we call this measurement time.

I believe the spirit has given me a pretty decent understanding of timelessness. It always shows me when something is nonsense.

Thank you.

anonymouswho · Jun 17, 2016

ScottA said:
Time does not set the Creator free, but rather, it is the Creator who sets the captives of time free. Plato's imagination was an historic high point in human philosophy...but he had it backwards. Geppetto was more accurate.

Hey Scott, good to hear from you my friend. I agree to an extent, but Geppetto is a bit too esoteric for my taste.

http://vigilantcitizen.com/moviesandtv/the-esoteric-interpretation-of-pinocchio/

Thank you for replying.

tucker58 · Jun 17, 2016

anonymouswho said:
Thank you for the reply tucker. I'll check that out, but as you may know, Plato's philosophy is pretty meaningless to me. It's fun and all, but he has a totally different god than I do, so I do not expect him to describe my God. John the baptist prepared the way (Yeshua) of YHVH, not Plato, Philo, or any of the Stoic philosophers.

The Scriptures never speak of such "timelessness". This idea of timelessness comes from the fact that aionios is the adjective form of aion, which means age. Because words with the -less suffix are adjectives, clever theologians have made up this idea of timelessness being a proper interpretation of agelessness. However, the -less suffix does not mean "existing at all time" or "an infinite amount of time". It means "NO-time". If someone is homeless, we would not say he has an infinite amount of homes. If something is priceless, we would not say the amount of infinity dollars would cover the cost. We mean there is no price that would cover it.

Time is the measurement of movement within space. Imagine a sundial tracking the movement of the sun. If we stare at the sundial and the shadow never moves, it's because the sun is not moving. Therefore, there is no measurement because nothing happened. If the shadow moves, then as long as the appropriate marks are recording the motion's progress, we call this measurement time.

I believe the spirit has given me a pretty decent understanding of timelessness. It always shows me when something is nonsense.

Thank you.

Well, has the Holy Spirit ever taken you to visit Heaven? Those that live there never age, in fact nothing ages there. Time has no meaning in the place that our Lord and Savior is preparing for us in His Father's house. A place where time has no meaning could be seen as a place without time? And it could also be seen as ageless if time has no meaning? Here is what the problem is Anonymouswho, how can the Godless know about the dwelling place of God and His family? And how can the other Godless call them "wise" and use that wisdom to lead other folks away from God and the Son of God? You are saying that they can't know because they are Godless and therefore what they know can not be real. But, the spirit realm is a big place, the Heavens, the total realm of all things spirit, where the Father of Lord Jesus lives, is a big place. And not all of that place is a nice place to be. There is a special place though in the wonderment that is Heaven that is set aside for those that follow and love Lord Jesus. And we who are the followers and loved ones of Lord Jesus go to that special place. The Godless and their wise ones go to other places in Heaven/the total realm of all things spirit and they do not get to go, generally speaking/with some exceptions, where those that follow and love Lord Jesus go. Time does not exist in the spirit realm and a sundial would never show time, in fact it would never even show a shadow in the places where there is light because light comes from everywhere. There is a big place where time does not exist and the Godless can know about that place, it is just that they can not go to the place, in that bigger place, that our Lord and Savior has prepared for those that follow and love Lord Jesus and His Father, they go somewhere else. And eventually, there will be a new Heaven and a new Earth and those that choose to dwell on this new Earth will be ageless in a place that is governed by time.

ScottA · Jun 17, 2016

anonymouswho said:
Hey Scott, good to hear from you my friend. I agree to an extent, but Geppetto is a bit too esoteric for my taste.

http://vigilantcitizen.com/moviesandtv/the-esoteric-interpretation-of-pinocchio/

Thank you for replying.

Pinocchio...is of course, an only begotten son of a multitude of created little friends.

anonymouswho · Jun 18, 2016

ScottA said:
Pinocchio...is of course, an only begotten son of a multitude of created little friends.

What does created mean to you? I prefer "prepares"....

In first (b'reshit: no definite article) prepares (bara) the gods the heavens and the land

In first (arche: no definite article) was the reason and the reason was moving towards the God and divine was the reason"

ScottA · Jun 18, 2016

anonymouswho said:
What does created mean to you? I prefer "prepares"....

In first (b'reshit: no definite article) prepares (bara) the gods the heavens and the land

In first (arche: no definite article) was the reason and the reason was moving towards the God and divine was the reason"

It is perhaps just as important to consider and understand what "create" is not: It is not to be brought into existence...for God exists without creation...etc. So, then, God is the measure of all things - and all things were "made" or "created" by Him. But all that is created...is passing away.

However, "created" itself is not the subject of those "begotten." But the subject of those begotten, is that of being "of" and "a part" of God.

All that is "created", then, is temporal - but the kingdom of heaven, is everlasting.

anonymouswho · Jun 19, 2016

ScottA said:
It is perhaps just as important to consider and understand what "create" is not: It is not to be brought into existence...for God exists without creation...etc. So, then, God is the measure of all things - and all things were "made" or "created" by Him. But all that is created...is passing away.

However, "created" itself is not the subject of those "begotten." But the subject of those begotten, is that of being "of" and "a part" of God.

All that is "created", then, is temporal - but the kingdom of heaven, is everlasting.

How would you describe your beliefs Scott? Deism, Pantheism, Panentheism or Theism? Or is there something else you might believe? Thank you.

ScottA · Jun 19, 2016

anonymouswho said:
How would you describe your beliefs Scott? Deism, Pantheism, Panentheism or Theism? Or is there something else you might believe? Thank you.

Christian.

tucker58 · Jun 20, 2016

anonymouswho said:
What does created mean to you? I prefer "prepares"....

In first (b'reshit: no definite article) prepares (bara) the gods the heavens and the land

In first (arche: no definite article) was the reason and the reason was moving towards the God and divine was the reason"

Apparently there is some preparation envolved before you can create. That makes sense to me. And "divine was the reason" could mean anything that the Divine might want to do, for any reason? Maybe

?

anonymouswho · Jun 20, 2016

ScottA said:
Christian.

If I'm not mistaken, Albert Einstein believed in Pantheism. Saul or Tarsus seems to believe in Panentheism, or that all exists within God. Thomas Jefferson believed in Deism, and Jefferson is probably the most interesting of them all. Christianity teaches Theism- in the god outside of time, matter, space, and reality.

If we say God is outside of reality, logic, and reason, we have essentially argued that God is not real, He is illogical, and He is unreasonable.

The Scriptures say God does not change. Does this mean He is "the unchanging", or does it simply mean He has obtained all knowledge, wisdom, and perfection- so He has no need to change?

anonymouswho · Jun 20, 2016

tucker58 said:
Apparently there is some preparation envolved before you can create. That makes sense to me. And "divine was the reason" could mean anything that the Divine might want to do, for any reason? Maybe ?

Thank you tucker. I liked your post. Not because you seem to agree with something I said, but because something makes sense.

Not that you do this- but I have found that we use words like knowledge, wisdom, understanding, and prudence interchangeably. Something that really helped me was to look up the different definitions of these words and try to build a better understanding.

Knowledge is to know something. For example, I know the grass is green. What I lack is the wisdom (collection of knowledge/experience) to know what is involved to make it green. When I obtain this wisdom, and I understand why each thing functions as it does, I have gained understanding. Throughout this whole process of trial and error, I learn what is incorrect as opposed to what is correct- and choose the truth. This is prudence. Prudence is deductive reasoning.

"Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions (מְזִמָּה: wicked/evil devices)

The fear of YHVH is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I [am] understanding; I have strength.

By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

YHVH possessed (קָ֭נָנִי: to get, aquire) me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

I was set up from everlasting (עוֹלָם: antiquity, ages), from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

When there were no depths, I was brought forth (חוֹלָ֑לְתִּי: whirl, twist, writhe in pain; as in childbirth): ; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of YHVH.

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death." Proverbs 8

Thank you.

ScottA · Jun 20, 2016

anonymouswho said:
If I'm not mistaken, Albert Einstein believed in Pantheism. Saul or Tarsus seems to believe in Panentheism, or that all exists within God. Thomas Jefferson believed in Deism, and Jefferson is probably the most interesting of them all. Christianity teaches Theism- in the god outside of time, matter, space, and reality.

If we say God is outside of reality, logic, and reason, we have essentially argued that God is not real, He is illogical, and He is unreasonable.

The Scriptures say God does not change. Does this mean He is "the unchanging", or does it simply mean He has obtained all knowledge, wisdom, and perfection- so He has no need to change?

I guess I don't know all there is to know about what defines all the 'isms...but it is interesting.

Certainly God is not outside anything, but is omnipresent. I believe it is easier to consider God looking down upon the earth, or looking in from the outside like we would look in on an aquarium...but in reality, it is almost the opposite. The world is rather a closed-circuit realm existing within the mind of God, in His imag-ination (so to speak).

Time, then, is simply a form of media: History, is His story. But He is timeless (without time), and so it is only the telling of the story that takes time. In fact, in God's timelessness, all the events of history occurr[ed] within the twinkling of an eye - His minds eye. Simultaneously, all that was became all that is...and - "It is finished." "It" being us and the new heaven and the new earth. God, on the other hand, did not change, but "expanded His tent pegs" to include...us. Isaiah 54:2

tucker58 · Jun 21, 2016

anonymouswho said:
Not that you do this- but I have found that we use words like knowledge, wisdom, understanding, and prudence interchangeably. Something that really helped me was to look up the different definitions of these words and try to build a better understanding.

Knowledge is to know something. For example, I know the grass is green. What I lack is the wisdom (collection of knowledge/experience) to know what is involved to make it green. When I obtain this wisdom, and I understand why each thing functions as it does, I have gained understanding. Throughout this whole process of trial and error, I learn what is incorrect as opposed to what is correct- and choose the truth. This is prudence. Prudence is deductive reasoning.

Proverbs 8 (and 9) is the personification of "wisdom" and some folks consider Proverbs 8 to be talking about Lord Jesus. And understanding what words mean is an important part of communication with defining terms the ideal place where one starts

.

prudent adj. 1. Wise in handling practical matters; exercising good judgement or common sense.

I guess I would like to present the possibility that "prudent" could be also based on "intuitive" as well as/or as deductive reasoning. Prudence n. 2. Careful management; economy.

But Anonymouswho, here is where things get fun

! What does an ancient word really mean?

"When there were no depths, I was brought forth (חוֹלָ֑לְתִּי: whirl, twist, writhe in pain; as in childbirth): ; when there were no fountains abounding with water."

חוֹלָ֑לְתִּי: as a word means way more than just "brought forth". And it does not translate well into english. But our goal, if we use your words, is to, "try to buld a better understanding." ""Throughout this whole process of trial and error, I learn what is incorrect as apposed to what is correct- and choose the truth." But anonymouswho to use your analogy and to truely understand why the grass is green, you need to take organic chemistry like I did. Do you have a degree in the language that this word חוֹלָ֑לְתִּי: comes from? Because if you do not, then you are using someone else's best guess (because most ancient words do not translate well into english) to arrive to a conclusion that you consider an absolute (truth).

Anonymouswho, you have a gifted mind that is searching for wisdom so that you can share this wisdom with others as a gift. But as an old fellow that has spent a lot of time doing what you are doing, I have found that 98% of truth is always a best guess. Which then brings us back to Prudence n. 2. Careful management, economy. The simple presentation of a/the possibility of a "truth" being a "truth" without the need for it to be an absolute.

As an example, there is a place where time does not exist, but when you experience that place, the word "timeless" does not really even begin to explain that place. There is no translation into english or advanced math that explains the "truth" of that place. Yes it is "timeless", but it is also not timeless

because you can create all versions of time or no versions of time as you wish. You can be God or you can share the experience with God as you wish. Or you can just sit there and cease to exist if that is what you wish. The Buddhist go there when they break the Third Dharma Seal, they just don't have Jesus to show them the ropes of the place. And a prepared place to dwell until they learn the ropes of the place should they wish to. Lost in the transendental with no guide can be an interesting truth

. It is a place where nothing is absolute unless you wish it to be. And God allows it, because the only one that you can hurt is yourself.

anonymouswho · Jun 27, 2016

tucker58 said:
Proverbs 8 (and 9) is the personification of "wisdom" and some folks consider Proverbs 8 to be talking about Lord Jesus. And understanding what words mean is an important part of communication with defining terms the ideal place where one starts .

prudent adj. 1. Wise in handling practical matters; exercising good judgement or common sense.

I guess I would like to present the possibility that "prudent" could be also based on "intuitive" as well as/or as deductive reasoning. Prudence n. 2. Careful management; economy.

But Anonymouswho, here is where things get fun ! What does an ancient word really mean?

"When there were no depths, I was brought forth (חוֹלָ֑לְתִּי: whirl, twist, writhe in pain; as in childbirth): ; when there were no fountains abounding with water."

חוֹלָ֑לְתִּי: as a word means way more than just "brought forth". And it does not translate well into english. But our goal, if we use your words, is to, "try to buld a better understanding." ""Throughout this whole process of trial and error, I learn what is incorrect as apposed to what is correct- and choose the truth." But anonymouswho to use your analogy and to truely understand why the grass is green, you need to take organic chemistry like I did. Do you have a degree in the language that this word חוֹלָ֑לְתִּי: comes from? Because if you do not, then you are using someone else's best guess (because most ancient words do not translate well into english) to arrive to a conclusion that you consider an absolute (truth).

Anonymouswho, you have a gifted mind that is searching for wisdom so that you can share this wisdom with others as a gift. But as an old fellow that has spent a lot of time doing what you are doing, I have found that 98% of truth is always a best guess. Which then brings us back to Prudence n. 2. Careful management, economy. The simple presentation of a/the possibility of a "truth" being a "truth" without the need for it to be an absolute.

As an example, there is a place where time does not exist, but when you experience that place, the word "timeless" does not really even begin to explain that place. There is no translation into english or advanced math that explains the "truth" of that place. Yes it is "timeless", but it is also not timeless because you can create all versions of time or no versions of time as you wish. You can be God or you can share the experience with God as you wish. Or you can just sit there and cease to exist if that is what you wish. The Buddhist go there when they break the Third Dharma Seal, they just don't have Jesus to show them the ropes of the place. And a prepared place to dwell until they learn the ropes of the place should they wish to. Lost in the transendental with no guide can be an interesting truth . It is a place where nothing is absolute unless you wish it to be. And God allows it, because the only one that you can hurt is yourself.

Thank you tucker. I hope you don't take offence, but I'm very peculiar about words. I believe in the word of God, and I believe His word is true. So I pay very close attention to the words that others say to me, and I try to make sense of it. When I read "Yes, it is timeless, but it is also not timeless", I hear a contradiction; and I cannot accept a contradiction. Either one statement has to be true and the other false, or both statements are false. But it is impossible for both propositions of a contradiction to be true.

I have experienced things that I later learned were impossible. I used to experience something called a "freewill". I believed that I made my choices independent of anything else, and that my choices were some God given gift of freedom. Now that I know this is impossible, I see the truth in everything I do. I no longer experience this delusion, but I experience something far greater- the peace and assurance that God has taken care of absolutely everything.

I am only 26. I have no college degrees in anything and I've worked at a retail store since I was 17. I don't know why I have to be so different from everyone else. I come to these sites because I have nobody else to talk to. I have many friends, a wife and two awesome kids, but nobody wants to talk to me too long.

I need you to explain why this timeless place is real, why your statement doesn't contradict, and where the Scriptures ever speak of such a thing. I'm not one to just blow off anything that disagrees with my presuppositions, but I do desire truth.

My name is Joshua by the way. I apologize if I'm so blunt, but if we talk to each other like children then neither of us will ever learn anything. As the Scriptures say...

"Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee." Proverbs 9:8

Thank you tucker and God bless you my friend.

tucker58 · Jun 28, 2016

anonymouswho said:
Thank you tucker. I hope you don't take offence, but I'm very peculiar about words. I believe in the word of God, and I believe His word is true. So I pay very close attention to the words that others say to me, and I try to make sense of it. When I read "Yes, it is timeless, but it is also not timeless", I hear a contradiction; and I cannot accept a contradiction. Either one statement has to be true and the other false, or both statements are false. But it is impossible for both propositions of a contradiction to be true.

I have experienced things that I later learned were impossible. I used to experience something called a "freewill". I believed that I made my choices independent of anything else, and that my choices were some God given gift of freedom. Now that I know this is impossible, I see the truth in everything I do. I no longer experience this delusion, but I experience something far greater- the peace and assurance that God has taken care of absolutely everything.

I am only 26. I have no college degrees in anything and I've worked at a retail store since I was 17. I don't know why I have to be so different from everyone else. I come to these sites because I have nobody else to talk to. I have many friends, a wife and two awesome kids, but nobody wants to talk to me too long.

I need you to explain why this timeless place is real, why your statement doesn't contradict, and where the Scriptures ever speak of such a thing. I'm not one to just blow off anything that disagrees with my presuppositions, but I do desire truth.

My name is Joshua by the way. I apologize if I'm so blunt, but if we talk to each other like children then neither of us will ever learn anything. As the Scriptures say...

"Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee." Proverbs 9:8

Thank you tucker and God bless you my friend.

Joshua nobody talks to me either

. I don't mind you being blunt and you can't offend me, I have been through to much. Well, how does one put into words something that can not be put into words? And how do I know that something that can not be put into words? I know about it because I have experienced it. I have been a Christian mystic for a little over sixty years now, since my first prayer at five years old. But at the sametime there are a lot of folks that would say that I might have a brain chemistry problem and that that is why I have mystic experiences

. I don't know, but I do have evidence in my life that Lord Jesus is real and that there is a profoundly powerful force with a conscious mind that is also real and that Lord Jesus and that profoundly powerful force with a conscious mind are working together to benefit Humankind. And that Lord Jesus is "extremely" loved by that profoundly powerful force with a conscious mind. And that there is a level where they are both the same thing.

Now when I asked God how can I answer your question with words this is what I was given (this is with the understanding that my questions are not always answered): "God has no limitations and that what we are discussing and dealing with is the entirety of His creation." Can you Joshua, or anyone for that matter, know the entirety of God's creation as well as what exists outside of God's creation? It is my opinion that no one can know all of it, but one can know parts of it. When a person tells me that they have experienced something that I have not experienced and that what they have experienced is real I never tell them that it is not real. As far as I am concerned it is just something that I have never experienced or looked into. And sometimes, I just plain have no wish to experience or to look into what they are saying is real. Especially if what they are claiming is real is negative, because I know that these places exist and I prefer to have nothing to do with those places.

So how can timelessness and time exist in the same place? Heaven is a dream that is real. And a dream can be timeless or it can have time. Joshua the spirit world is a whole different breed of cat than the physical world. The spirit world is the world of the mind with no physical body. Your only limitation is your mind and the desires that your mind wishes to create.

Now it is ok if you do not believe me, because ultimately it doesn't really matter, except that if one is aware of this possiblity of awareness after death and this new state of being, then there can be less emotional trama when one makes the transition. And people that love Lord Jesus are met by Lord Jesus and people that have loved ones that have passed are met by their loved ones to help in this transition. Folks that do not have Lord Jesus or loved ones can experience a very ruff time with the transition, is all

.

And Joshua may you be blessed and prosper also, my friend! Love, Tuck

anonymouswho · Jul 13, 2016

tucker58 said:
Joshua nobody talks to me either . I don't mind you being blunt and you can't offend me, I have been through to much. Well, how does one put into words something that can not be put into words? And how do I know that something that can not be put into words? I know about it because I have experienced it. I have been a Christian mystic for a little over sixty years now, since my first prayer at five years old. But at the sametime there are a lot of folks that would say that I might have a brain chemistry problem and that that is why I have mystic experiences . I don't know, but I do have evidence in my life that Lord Jesus is real and that there is a profoundly powerful force with a conscious mind that is also real and that Lord Jesus and that profoundly powerful force with a conscious mind are working together to benefit Humankind. And that Lord Jesus is "extremely" loved by that profoundly powerful force with a conscious mind. And that there is a level where they are both the same thing.

Now when I asked God how can I answer your question with words this is what I was given (this is with the understanding that my questions are not always answered): "God has no limitations and that what we are discussing and dealing with is the entirety of His creation." Can you Joshua, or anyone for that matter, know the entirety of God's creation as well as what exists outside of God's creation? It is my opinion that no one can know all of it, but one can know parts of it. When a person tells me that they have experienced something that I have not experienced and that what they have experienced is real I never tell them that it is not real. As far as I am concerned it is just something that I have never experienced or looked into. And sometimes, I just plain have no wish to experience or to look into what they are saying is real. Especially if what they are claiming is real is negative, because I know that these places exist and I prefer to have nothing to do with those places.

So how can timelessness and time exist in the same place? Heaven is a dream that is real. And a dream can be timeless or it can have time. Joshua the spirit world is a whole different breed of cat than the physical world. The spirit world is the world of the mind with no physical body. Your only limitation is your mind and the desires that your mind wishes to create.

Now it is ok if you do not believe me, because ultimately it doesn't really matter, except that if one is aware of this possiblity of awareness after death and this new state of being, then there can be less emotional trama when one makes the transition. And people that love Lord Jesus are met by Lord Jesus and people that have loved ones that have passed are met by their loved ones to help in this transition. Folks that do not have Lord Jesus or loved ones can experience a very ruff time with the transition, is all .

And Joshua may you be blessed and prosper also, my friend! Love, Tuck

Hello Tucker. Sorry for the delay. I've been at Biblical Hermeneutics on Stackexchange. You asked if we can know all of God's creation, and also what is outside of it. I have to humbly answer that I don't know what God will permit us to know. But then you said that you believe we can know "parts" of it. And this is where I'm confused. How is it that an infinite entity can have "parts"?

I have some concerns with excepting experiences as divine revelations of truth. I cannot outright deny the importance of experiences; otherwise, why would I, a gentile American living 2000 some years after a Jewish man lived, believe anything he says if I did not experience his words as truth? I believe experiences are very important, because I believe that cause (experiences) and effect (outcomes) have determined every step I'll ever make and every thought I'll ever think.

However, to believe my experiences are truth would leave no room for correction. No matter what anyone tells me or what the Scriptures say, I could assert that everything I've experienced is true and I therefore know all things. I don't believe the God that Yeshua revealed to us is eternal, because I do not believe there is a word in the Scriptures that mean eternal. The God that Yeshua revealed to us is the God of the Hebrew Scriptures, so whatever qualities they ascribe to Him is our description of the only true God. Here is what I believe the Scriptures teach about our God:

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." Psalm 90:4

This verse says a thousand years is like a day to God. Augustine says:

"In the eminence of thy ever-present eternity, thou precedest all times past, and extendest beyond all future times, for they are still to come — and when they have come, they will be past. But "Thou art always the Selfsame and thy years shall have no end." Thy years neither go nor come; but ours both go and come in order that all separate moments may come to pass. All thy years stand together as one, since they are abiding. Nor do thy years past exclude the years to come because thy years do not pass away. All these years of ours shall be with thee, when all of them shall have ceased to be. Thy years are but a day, and thy day is not recurrent, but always today. Thy "today" yields not to tomorrow and does not follow yesterday. Thy "today" is eternity.

— St. Augustine, Confessions, Book XI, Chapter XIII

That's not what the Scriptures say. Augustine made all of this up in his own head.

"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient (עַתִּיק H6268: ancient, aged) of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." Daniel 7:9

Daniel says God is the ancient of days, not the eternal of days.

"Thus saith YHVH the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHVH of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6

YHVH says He is the first and the last. Not before the first, not outside of the first, but He is the first.

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting (עוֹלָם olam H5769: antiquity, futurity, long time) to everlasting (עוֹלָם olam), thou art God." Psalm 90:2

Olam is equivalent to aionios in Greek, which means "age-enduring". So God is from past ages to future ages. This does not say He is timeless, just very old and still has many more years to go.

God speaks. In order to speak, one must be in a condition of not speaking, and then a change must occur where words are uttered. If God was timeless and unchanging, He could not speak. He specifically tells us this is something that sets Him apart from the false gods:

"They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O Lord; thou art great, and thy name is great in might." Jeremiah 10:7

"Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:

They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them." Psalm 115:2

So my question does not concern whether it is possible this eternal god exists. I simply want to know where in the Scriptures it speaks of him. If they do not, then what reason do I have to even continue to think about him?

Thank you tucker and God bless you my friend.

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