A-Mil Only Where ya at?

I'm a-mil. Never used to be. In fact, I couldn't understand how people could possibly believe it seeing all the evil in the world today, until I read 1 Corinthians 15 and Acts 3:21

The key point in 1 Corinthians 15 is that when Jesus comes back, his reign ends (he delivers the kingdom to the Father). Which means he comes back at the end of the thousand years, not the beginning. And the key point in Acts 3:21 is that Jesus does not come back to earth until the time of the restoration of heaven and earth. Which also happens of course after the thousand years.

There are of course plenty more verses that support a-millenialism, like the binding of the strong man, and the blowing of the seventh trumpet, and others, but when I read those two verses above, that was my epiphany moment, and I could no longer deny what was clearly written in scripture.

I'm A-mill as well. I've been lucky to grow up in a country where this is the dominant view by far. As such, I've only recently become aware that there are many adherents of Pre and Post-mill views; it's not just something written in a commentary.

I must admit that when I hear pre and post mill views on here - especially in the Mark of the Beast thread - I scratch my head. It just sounds so foreign to me. I suppose when you've spent years building a theological framework around pre/post mill viewpoints and hyper-literal hermeneutics it is a bit of a shock when someone else comes with a different view.

Unfortunately, it is a shock for most people but it shouldn't be. We should all be open minded enough to value accuracy in understanding over defending our existing viewpoint. Understanding scripture is not a contest, though too many people treat it like one.

LastSeven said:

The key point in 1 Corinthians 15 is that when Jesus comes back, his reign ends (he delivers the kingdom to the Father). Which means he comes back at the end of the thousand years, not the beginning. And the key point in Acts 3:21 is that Jesus does not come back to earth until the time of the restoration of heaven and earth. Which also happens of course after the thousand years.

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Your scriptures proving A-Mill, do not do that at all.
Acts 3:21 speaks of the restoration of God's rule of mankind, the end of our messed up self governance and the commencement of King Jesus' 1000 year reign.
The verse itself and the context of that verse don't fit the New Heaven New Earth scenario.

The same for 1 Corinthians 15:24, Jesus must reign on earth first, deposing every other sovereignty and power. 1 Corinthians 15:25 For He is destined to reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Then to believe A-Mill, you must deny Revelation 20: all the references to a literal 1000 year reign of Jesus, His goal and reward, as Jesus said in Luke 13:32b

FYI, I am not a pre, mid or post anything, just a believer of what the prophets actually say. That is, when Jesus Returns in glory, those who remain alive will be caught up to meet Him in the air......
But in my writings, I point out the many things that must happen before that great Day.
logostelos.info

keras said:

Your scriptures proving A-Mill, do not do that at all.
Acts 3:21 speaks of the restoration of God's rule of mankind, the end of our messed up self governance and the commencement of King Jesus' 1000 year reign.
The verse itself and the context of that verse don't fit the New Heaven New Earth scenario.

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First of all, they're not my scriptures. You can read them too. Secondly if the "restoration of all things" does not mean the restoration of heaven and earth then I don't know what does.

If the restoration of all things refers merely to the restoration of God's rule, then how would you describe the restoration of heaven and earth? The "restoration of all things, plus heaven and earth"? Really? Come on now. Don't dumb down scripture just because it doesn't fit what you believe. All things means all things. Honest it does. Just like the last day means the last day (that's the day we're resurrected by the way).

See also how in Revelation 21 we see the fulfillment of Acts 3:21
Revelation 21:5
I am making everything new!

keras said:

The same for 1 Corinthians 15:24, Jesus must reign on earth first, deposing every other sovereignty and power.

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Now you're just making things up. It doesn't say anything about "Jesus must reign on earth first".

keras said:

1 Corinthians 15:25 For He is destined to reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

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Yes, he reigns until he has put all enemies under his feet, including death. That's what happens at the resurrection. The resurrection is literally the end of death, as we all come to life. And that happens on the last day, just as Jesus promised.

keras said:

Then to believe A-Mill, you must deny Revelation 20:

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Er,.. no. You just have to understand that Revelation is written in the style of progressive parallelism, and you also have to admit that it says nothing about reigning on earth. (I know admitting that is a tough one for you guys, but the first step is always admitting you have a problem.)

keras said:

all the references to a literal 1000 year reign of Jesus, His goal and reward, as Jesus said in Luke 13:32b

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There are no such references. You're confusing prophecies of the new earth, with the thousand year reign. And how does Luke 13:32 fit into this?

keras said:

FYI, I am not a pre, mid or post anything, just a believer of what the prophets actually say.

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Right. Except of course for Acts 3:21 and 1 Corinthians 15. There you don't believe what the prophets say. You know God will restore all things, yet when you come across a verse that literally says God will restore all things you claim "it's talking about something else!!". Right. You can disagree with me all you want about the millennium, but don't claim that you "just believe what the prophets actually say".

Tell me. Does 1 Corinthians 15 not say that when Jesus comes, we are resurrected? And does it not also say that then the end will come? And does he not at that time hand over the kingdom to the Father? How could you possibly claim it doesn't say those things?

LastSeven said:

See also how in Revelation 21 we see the fulfillment of Acts 3:21
Revelation 21:5
I am making everything new!

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The context of Acts 3:21 refutes your NHNE claim. Verses 19-20 talks about repentance and a time of recovery, when the Messiah will come. But for now He is in heaven until the Appointed time of restoration..... That restoration, rejoining is the prophesied and not yet happened fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 and the many prophesied Second Exodus of all the Lord's people into the holy Land. Isaiah 11:11
Then verse 22 goes on to say how God will raise up for us another prophet like Moses. This will happen before the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11

LastSeven said:

Now you're just making things up. It doesn't say anything about "Jesus must reign on earth first".

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I used a bit of logic, obviously Jesus must reign physically in order for those powers to be deposed.

LastSeven said:

Yes, he reigns until he has put all enemies under his feet, including death. That's what happens at the resurrection. The resurrection is literally the end of death, as we all come to life. And that happens on the last day, just as Jesus promised.

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The resurrection of the saints will happen at the Return. Revelation 20:4
After the 1000 years, every person will be brought to life and judged, some to eternal death, some to eternal life. Revelation 20:11-15

LastSeven said:

Er,.. no. You just have to understand that Revelation is written in the style of progressive parallelism,

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Progressive Parallelism? Where did you drag that up from? I understand Revelation OK, without resorting to such notions. Yes, it does have later details that refer to previous prophesies, not too hard to sort it and get the full picture.

LastSeven said:

and you also have to admit that it says nothing about reigning on earth. (I know admitting that is a tough one for you guys, but the first step is always admitting you have a problem.)

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You stepped in a sloppy cowpat there and then made yourself look silly by saying we Millennists have a problem. Check Revelation 5:10 and Revelation 7:1-9 is an earthly scene.

LastSeven said:

There are no such references. You're confusing prophecies of the new earth, with the thousand year reign. And how does Luke 13:32 fit into this?

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Revelation 20:3-6 says 4 times, there will be a thousand year reign of Jesus.
Luke 13:32 is a prophecy by Jesus of the 2 'day' gap between His first Advent and the second. Now nearly completed. Then the 'day' = 1000 years, Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8, of His Millennial reign.

LastSeven said:

You can disagree with me all you want about the millennium, but don't claim that you "just believe what the prophets actually say".

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After many years of intensive study, I can say I do have a good understanding of what the prophets wrote. I see a coherent and logical progression of events, leading up to the Eternal state.

LastSeven said:

Tell me. Does 1 Corinthians 15 not say that when Jesus comes, we are resurrected? And does it not also say that then the end will come? And does he not at that time hand over the kingdom to the Father? How could you possibly claim it doesn't say those things?

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1 Corinthians 15:23 says things will happen in their proper order and from that chapter and other scriptures, we know the end comes after the Millennium reign of Jesus.

I don't think it says what you think it says Keras.

Hazrus said:

I don't think it says what you think it says Keras.

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Sure, you and many others prefer to believe there will be no Millennium reign of Jesus on earth.
I prefer to believe there will be the time when Psalms 93:1-5, Isaiah 60:17-22, Psalms 102:21-22, Isaiah 11:1-9, Isaiah 33:20-24, Micah 4:1-5, Zechariah 9:10, will come to pass.

As to the "millennium," the bible proves it is not a real historic thing:

Since the resurrection occurs at the second coming (1 Cor 15:23)...

And since the judgment occurs at the second coming (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)...

And since the New Heaven/Earth occurs at the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Pet 3:10/1 Thess 5:2)...

THEREFORE we know there is no literal historic millennium. The bible proves there is no literal earthly "millennium." The "thousand years" is a typological symbol in John's highly typological and symbolic vision.

You cannot dispute these facts, no matter how hard you try. The "millennium" is a typological symbol, and not a temporal, future epoch.

keras said:

Sure, you and many others prefer to believe there will be no Millennium reign of Jesus on earth.
I prefer to believe there will be the time when Psalms 93:1-5, Isaiah 60:17-22, Psalms 102:21-22, Isaiah 11:1-9, Isaiah 33:20-24, Micah 4:1-5, Zechariah 9:10, will come to pass.

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Those things will come to pass, of course. They're in scripture, so we believe them to be true. However, they're all references to the renewed earth, not the thousand years.

keras said:

Progressive Parallelism? Where did you drag that up from? I understand Revelation OK, without resorting to such notions.

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Wise in your own conceits. Unwilling to learn about a new concept? Maybe you should research progressive parallelism in Revelation before you dismiss it. Don't be so arrogant to think you have it all figured out and couldn't possibly be wrong. First honestly consider all the facts and all the angles.

keras said:

Revelation 20:3-6 says 4 times, there will be a thousand year reign of Jesus.

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And how many times does it say the thousand year reign will be on earth? Zero.

keras said:

After many years of intensive study, I can say I do have a good understanding of what the prophets wrote. I see a coherent and logical progression of events, leading up to the Eternal state.

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Many years of study does not guarantee you've got it right. I know many people who've been "studying" for many years and still don't understand some basic concepts because they're approaching scripture with a certain mindset. Your mindset is based on a chronological reading of Revelation. That's your first mistake. All your other mistakes are a result of that.

This is why you can't accept 1 Corinthians 15 as it's written. As it's written, it does not mesh with a chronological reading of Revelation. So either 1 Corinthians 15 is wrong, or Revelation is not chronological.

keras said:

1 Corinthians 15:23 says things will happen in their proper order and from that chapter and other scriptures, we know the end comes after the Millennium reign of Jesus.

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You see? You need to insert large gaps between phrases in 1 Corinthians 15 in order for your understanding to fit. Large gaps that are not actually indicated in scripture.

You should consider that there might be a way to make all the pieces fit without having to change scripture. Take my advice. Research progressive parallelism in Revelation and do so with an open mind. Scriptural understanding is not a contest, so don't put up walls if somebody suggests a different viewpoint. Consider it.

keras said:

1 Corinthians 15:23 says things will happen in their proper order and from that chapter and other scriptures, we know the end comes after the Millennium reign of Jesus.

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Let me ask you something. Do you think the seventh trumpet signals the start of the thousand years?

LastSeven said:

And how many times does it say the thousand year reign will be on earth? Zero.

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Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Hi LastSeven, what do you suppose is spoken of here. Are these saints. who now reign with Christ for a thousand years, one's who have just won the war against Satan in heaven Revelation 12:7 and now reign on Satan's abandoned thrones in heaven??

Bob..

These are all those who have accepted Christ.

LastSeven said:

These are all those who have accepted Christ.

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OK, but...I'm still confused ??

There are so many issues in that passage you quoted. Why don't you tell me specifically what you're confused about and I'll explain.

Well for starters I understood your statement, which I quoted in post #16, to indicate that the saints of Revelation 20:4 do not reign on earth at this time. And I have my doubts as well. So do you think perhaps these saints reigning in heaven in Revelation 20:4 are fulfilling the vacancies which Satin left behind after the war in heaven?

Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death Revelation 12:11

Bob..