Rapture timing

Hazrus · Jun 14, 2016

Look. I just don't like calling it "rapture" because of the (in my opinion) negative connotations it brings - Hagee, LaHaye, et al. I completely agree that all Christians will be raised to be with Jesus. I just believe this will be on Judgement Day. I don't think 1 Thess 4 is a "smoking gun" for the pre-trib pre-mill crowd.

So I guess I am a "Rapture" believer!!!!

Bible2+ · Jun 15, 2016

Biblewriter said in post 242:

The Greek name of the revelation is apokalupsis (Apocalypse.) This means, and clearly means, presented symbolically, as opposed to being explicitly stated.

Actually, in Revelation 1:1, the original Greek word (apokalupsis: G0602) translated as "Revelation" in no way requires a symbolic revelation, but can refer to literal revelation, like how, for example, Jesus will be literally revealed, will literally "appear" (apokalupsis) to the world at his 2nd coming (1 Peter 1:7b).

That is, Jesus' future "apocalypse" is his future "revelation", which the church is waiting for (1 Peter 1:13; 1 Peter 4:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), his 2nd "coming" which the church is waiting for (1 Corinthians 1:7), his future "appearing" which the church is waiting for (1 Peter 1:7).

Biblewriter said in post 242:

We read that "He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,]." Revelation 1:1 The word "signified" (esemanen in the Greek) clearly states exactly what I just said.

Actually, nothing in Revelation 1:1 requires that Jesus in Revelation chapters 6 to 22 is expressing the events of the future tribulation and the subsequent 2nd coming, millennium, and other events only through symbolic references, instead of indicating these events almost entirely literally. For just as the original Greek word (deiknuo: G1166) translated as "show" in Revelation 1:1 doesn't have to refer to something being shown through symbolic references, but can refer to something being shown literally (Matthew 8:4), so the original Greek word (semaino: G4591) translated as "signified" in Revelation 1:1 doesn't have to refer to something being indicated through symbolic references, but can refer to something being indicated literally (Acts 25:27).

*******

Biblewriter said in post 251:

Micah 5:5-6

In Micah 5:5, "the Assyrian shall come into our land" could refer to when the Antichrist and his world armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-4, Daniel 11:45) and Jesus' defeat of the Antichrist (Isaiah 30:30-33, Revelation 19:20). The subsequent successful fighting by the Jews in Zechariah 14:14 and Zechariah 12:6-8 could include what Micah 5:5b-6a is referring to.

The ancient Assyrian empire included Lebanon, and the Antichrist could have Assyrian blood in him.

The Antichrist could have grown up as a Druze Arab, in Lebanon, in the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). So he could at first present himself to the world as being of the (quasi-Islamic) Druze religion, which is waiting for the 2nd coming of a God-man named Hakim. The Antichrist's last name could be Hakim, and he could at first present himself to the Druze people as the fulfillment of the 2nd coming of this God-man. In this way, he could get the Druze to support him without question during an initial rise to power among the Arabs. The Druze Arabs could be the numerically "small people" of Daniel 11:23. The Antichrist could make them his completely-devoted bodyguard, and buy them many key positions of power within a future United Arab States (which the Antichrist could become the leader of in the 1st stage of his world takeover), and employ the Druze as loyal spies and assassins at every level of his United Arab government and military.

The Druze religion is very secretive. What it teaches to its higher-level initiates isn't even taught to its lower-level initiates. What it could teach to its higher-level initiates could basically be Gnosticism mixed in with the Hakim God-man idea. The Antichrist himself, while outwardly a Druze, could inwardly be a Gnostic Luciferian. He could be a highest-level initiate of a worldwide secret society which ultimately teaches Gnostic Luciferianism, but keeps this a secret even from its own members who haven't been initiated into its highest level.

Biblewriter said in post 251:

The Bible explicitly tells where this "Assyrian" will arise from, where he will attack first, second, and third, who his allies will be, when the attack on Jerusalem will take place, and even the daily progress of that attack.

Regarding "the daily progress of that attack", note that there is no historical proof (as is sometimes claimed) that the ancient Assyrian king named Sennacherib didn't fulfill Isaiah 10:28-32. His main army could have gone down the coast while he led an expeditionary force rapidly down the ridge (leaving no archaeological markers) to do a quick reconnaissance of Jerusalem, that is, to check out the approaches to Jerusalem and get a sense of the best way to lay siege to it. Then he could have shaken his fist at Jerusalem (Isaiah 10:32) and rejoined his main army along the coast.

Later, while laying siege to Lachish, and thinking about what he had seen for himself to be Jerusalem's formidable defensive position, Sennacherib could have begun to worry how long it would take to conquer Jerusalem by siege. So when Hezekiah showed signs of submission to Sennacherib (2 Kings 18:14-16), Sennacherib could have thought that if he just sent a large force back to Jerusalem, he could scare it into surrender with mere words (2 Kings 18:17-37).

Note the similarity of Sennacherib's boasting in 2 Kings 18:34-35 and Isaiah 36:19-20 to that prophesied in Isaiah 10:9-11.

Bible2+ · Jun 15, 2016

vinsight4u said in post 247:

Isaiah 2 shows the wicked hide in the rocks when the day of the Lord begins . . .

That's right.

But note that the day of the Lord in Isaiah 2:10-21 has to begin at the 2nd coming, not at the 6th seal, near the start of the tribulation. For during the 2nd half of the tribulation, it is Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") who will be exalted by the world (Revelation 13:4-18), not the Lord, contradicting "the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day" (Isaiah 2:17).

Also, during the 2nd half of the tribulation, the world will worship the ultimate idol, the image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:14-15), contradicting that in that day "the idols he [the Lord] shall utterly abolish" (Isaiah 2:18).

So the people hiding in the rocks at the 2nd coming (Isaiah 2:19-21) has to be a separate instance from the people hiding in the rocks at the 6th seal, at one point during only the 1st stage of the tribulation (Revelation 6:15-16). It is not like people can hide in rocks only one time. Some people did it way back in 1 Samuel 13:6, for example. And Hosea 10:8b refers to the fall of Samaria in 722 BC (Hosea 10:7-8). And Luke 23:30 can include reference to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD (Luke 23:28-30). So Revelation 6:16 can be just one more instance, years before the 2nd coming in Isaiah 2:10-21, where "the glory of his majesty" is the same as in Matthew 24:30, at the 2nd coming.

vinsight4u said in post 247:

Isaiah 13 shows the sun shall be darkened when the day of the Lord time events are to the point of soon taking down Babylon . . .

That's right.

To properly understand the timing of Isaiah 13:10, it must be read in its context (Isaiah 13:1-22).

The city of Babylon referred to in Isaiah 13 (verses 1,19) isn't the ancient city of Babylon, just as it isn't the symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" of Revelation. Instead, it is only the present-day, literal city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

For the 7 heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires which had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10-11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

-

In Isaiah 13:3, the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven", when they physically descend from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus as he wages war against the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, 2nd-coming day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Isaiah 13:10,13 refers to the same, future, 2nd-coming time as Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:15.

Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus' defeat of the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus' 2nd coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East which in ancient times was called "Media" and is now in northwestern Iran. (The Kurds who now live there, and in surrounding areas, even claim to be the descendants of the ancient Medes.)

In Isaiah 13:17, the "Medes" aren't the ancient Medes who conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes didn't make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.

In Isaiah 13:19-22, the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 won't be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming.

*******

vinsight4u said in post 253:

Most people seem to have no idea how to do the timeline in Revelation, because they think Rev. 22 as to seal not the sayings part has to do with the entire book of Revelation. But it does not.

Actually, it does. For in Revelation 22:10, "this book" which isn't sealed is the entire book of Revelation, the fulfillment of which is "at hand" (Revelation 22:10, Revelation 1:3), and which the entire church needs to "keep" the sayings of (Revelation 22:7,9, Revelation 1:3), and which Jesus gave through an angel to the entire church (Revelation 22:16, Revelation 1:1-3).

The entire book of Revelation being unsealed (Revelation 22:10) means that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally.

*******

vinsight4u said in post 257:

The seven thunders utterings were sealed -they are not part of this book.

What the 7 thunders said is not part of Revelation, for John was forbidden to write what they said into Revelation (Revelation 10:4).

-

It is sometimes claimed that Revelation 10:4 means that what the 7 thunders uttered wasn't from God.

But something can be a message from God even though he hasn't revealed it yet. For example, God gave Nebuchadnezzar a prophetic dream, but Nebuchadnezzar could not remember its details (Daniel 2:5). It took Daniel, by a miracle from God, to reveal to Nebuchadnezzar the details of his dream (Daniel 2:19). Similarly, the 7 thunders could have uttered something from God, without him yet revealing the details of what they said.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter" (Proverbs 25:2); and God has made believers kings (Revelation 5:10).

The 7 thunders in Revelation 10:4 may have spoken of some events not revealed in Daniel or Revelation which will happen between the 6th-trumpet events in Revelation 9:13-21 and the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-19, that is, some events which will happen during the Antichrist's worldwide reign.

vinsight4u said in post 257:

Rev. 10 shows that John ate a little book so he could prophesy again.

In Revelation 10, the angel and the little book could refer to a powerful, unfallen angel giving the apostle John understanding of the little book of Daniel, which foretells the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), which John was about to see from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

vinsight4u said in post 257:

Rev. 10 shows that John ate a little book so he could prophesy again.

John's prophecies in the book of Revelation were originally sent to the 1st century AD church (Revelation chapters 1-3), which probably expected all of his prophecies to be fulfilled shortly thereafter (shortly from the viewpoint of men, not God). But when Revelation's future prophecies (Revelation 4:1b) in chapters 6 to 22 didn't happen right away, as the centuries passed the church began to pay less and less attention to Revelation. It is only in modern times that a significant portion of the church has become interested again in Revelation and the future fulfillment of (the never fulfilled) chapters 6 to 22, so that, in effect, John is, through the enduring book of Revelation, "prophesying again" (Revelation 10:11), this time to the modern church, just as he prophesied originally to the early church.

vinsight4u said in post 257:

7th trumpet sounds - ends the mystery of God section

In Revelation 10:7, "finished" in the original Greek is "teleo" (G5055), which can mean "performed" (Luke 2:39). Revelation 10:7 means that the prophetic writings regarding the tribulation will finish being performed at the 7th trumpet of the tribulation. For out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the final stage of the tribulation, the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

In Revelation 10:7, the "mystery" is currently known by the church, just as, for example, the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is currently known by the church. For the mystery in Revelation 10:7 has already been "declared to his servants the prophets" (Revelation 10:7), just as the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is already "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets" (Romans 16:26).

Bible2+ · Jun 15, 2016

Hazrus said in post 252:

Partial Preterists believe that ALL Christians go through the tribulation. It is ongoing until the Lord returns.

Actually, partial preterists believe that the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6-18 already happened in ancient times. That is the whole reason that they are called preterists (past-ists): they believe that the tribulation is past.

But it is not past, just as it is not ongoing. Instead, the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), hasn't even started yet. For it will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. After this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could also cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After that, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say that they are YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind utterly desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when this army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on humanity. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

(And all of this will be part of only the 1st half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.)

It is at this point that Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal 7-headed, red dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of these 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the world's armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will suffer forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

Biblewriter · Jun 15, 2016

Hazrus said:
Look. I just don't like calling it "rapture" because of the (in my opinion) negative connotations it brings - Hagee, LaHaye, et al. I completely agree that all Christians will be raised to be with Jesus. I just believe this will be on Judgement Day. I don't think 1 Thess 4 is a "smoking gun" for the pre-trib pre-mill crowd.

So I guess I am a "Rapture" believer!!!!

I completely agree that 1 Thessalonians 4 says absolutely nothing about the timing of the great event it describes. And I have yet to run across the first pre-tribber who thought it did.

Biblewriter · Jun 15, 2016

Bible2+ said:
Actually, in Revelation 1:1, the original Greek word (apokalupsis: G0602) translated as "Revelation" in no way requires a symbolic revelation, but can refer to literal revelation, like how, for example, Jesus will be literally revealed, will literally "appear" (apokalupsis) to the world at his 2nd coming (1 Peter 1:7b).

That is, Jesus' future "apocalypse" is his future "revelation", which the church is waiting for (1 Peter 1:13; 1 Peter 4:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), his 2nd "coming" which the church is waiting for (1 Corinthians 1:7), his future "appearing" which the church is waiting for (1 Peter 1:7).

Actually, nothing in Revelation 1:1 requires that Jesus in Revelation chapters 6 to 22 is expressing the events of the future tribulation and the subsequent 2nd coming, millennium, and other events only through symbolic references, instead of indicating these events almost entirely literally. For just as the original Greek word (deiknuo: G1166) translated as "show" in Revelation 1:1 doesn't have to refer to something being shown through symbolic references, but can refer to something being shown literally (Matthew 8:4), so the original Greek word (semaino: G4591) translated as "signified" in Revelation 1:1 doesn't have to refer to something being indicated through symbolic references, but can refer to something being indicated literally (Acts 25:27).

*******

In Micah 5:5, "the Assyrian shall come into our land" could refer to when the Antichrist and his world armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-4, Daniel 11:45) and Jesus' defeat of the Antichrist (Isaiah 30:30-33, Revelation 19:20). The subsequent successful fighting by the Jews in Zechariah 14:14 and Zechariah 12:6-8 could include what Micah 5:5b-6a is referring to.

The ancient Assyrian empire included Lebanon, and the Antichrist could have Assyrian blood in him.

The Antichrist could have grown up as a Druze Arab, in Lebanon, in the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). So he could at first present himself to the world as being of the (quasi-Islamic) Druze religion, which is waiting for the 2nd coming of a God-man named Hakim. The Antichrist's last name could be Hakim, and he could at first present himself to the Druze people as the fulfillment of the 2nd coming of this God-man. In this way, he could get the Druze to support him without question during an initial rise to power among the Arabs. The Druze Arabs could be the numerically "small people" of Daniel 11:23. The Antichrist could make them his completely-devoted bodyguard, and buy them many key positions of power within a future United Arab States (which the Antichrist could become the leader of in the 1st stage of his world takeover), and employ the Druze as loyal spies and assassins at every level of his United Arab government and military.

The Druze religion is very secretive. What it teaches to its higher-level initiates isn't even taught to its lower-level initiates. What it could teach to its higher-level initiates could basically be Gnosticism mixed in with the Hakim God-man idea. The Antichrist himself, while outwardly a Druze, could inwardly be a Gnostic Luciferian. He could be a highest-level initiate of a worldwide secret society which ultimately teaches Gnostic Luciferianism, but keeps this a secret even from its own members who haven't been initiated into its highest level.

Regarding "the daily progress of that attack", note that there is no historical proof (as is sometimes claimed) that the ancient Assyrian king named Sennacherib didn't fulfill Isaiah 10:28-32. His main army could have gone down the coast while he led an expeditionary force rapidly down the ridge (leaving no archaeological markers) to do a quick reconnaissance of Jerusalem, that is, to check out the approaches to Jerusalem and get a sense of the best way to lay siege to it. Then he could have shaken his fist at Jerusalem (Isaiah 10:32) and rejoined his main army along the coast.

Later, while laying siege to Lachish, and thinking about what he had seen for himself to be Jerusalem's formidable defensive position, Sennacherib could have begun to worry how long it would take to conquer Jerusalem by siege. So when Hezekiah showed signs of submission to Sennacherib (2 Kings 18:14-16), Sennacherib could have thought that if he just sent a large force back to Jerusalem, he could scare it into surrender with mere words (2 Kings 18:17-37).

Note the similarity of Sennacherib's boasting in 2 Kings 18:34-35 and Isaiah 36:19-20 to that prophesied in Isaiah 10:9-11.

Bible2+ said:
Actually, partial preterists believe that the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6-18 already happened in ancient times. That is the whole reason that they are called preterists (past-ists): they believe that the tribulation is past.

But it is not past, just as it is not ongoing. Instead, the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), hasn't even started yet. For it will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. After this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could also cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After that, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say that they are YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind utterly desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when this army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on humanity. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

(And all of this will be part of only the 1st half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.)

It is at this point that Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal 7-headed, red dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of these 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the world's armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will suffer forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

I find it amusing that you think prophetic visions are literal, while you imagine that explicit statements of future events were only symbolic. You are substituting speculations for simple belief in what the scriptures explicitly say.

greenguzzi · Jun 15, 2016

Bible2+ said:
Actually, partial preterists believe that the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6-18 already happened in ancient times. That is the whole reason that they are called preterists (past-ists): they believe that the tribulation is past.

But it is not past, just as it is not ongoing. Instead, the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), hasn't even started yet. For it will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. After this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could also cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After that, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say that they are YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind utterly desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when this army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on humanity. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

(And all of this will be part of only the 1st half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.)

It is at this point that Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal 7-headed, red dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of these 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the world's armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will suffer forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

You are very quick to pretend to know what others believe. I'm a partial preterist, and I don't believe that the tribulation is all in the past.

Postvieww · Jun 15, 2016

1. There is no reference in the New Testament of comings (plural) of the Lord there are multiple references to the coming (singular). That idea is put forward by arbitrarily dividing up coming of the Lord passages based on difference in wordings.

2. There are no two coming of the Lord passages in scripture that are identical in wording. The argument that in one His feet touch down and in one they do not is not a valid argument. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 are worded differently yet most who hold to the per-tib view agree they speak of the same event. All of these coming of the Lord passages must be harmonized not divided up to support multiple comings.

3. There are no clearly worded passaged that identify resurrected in their new glorified body saints in heaven at any time. There are clearly worded passages that identify souls in heaven that return with Him at His coming to receive their new bodies 1 Thessalonians 4:14.

4. Jesus said 4 times in John 6 the resurrection would be “at the last day”. Martha said to Jesus in John 11:24 the resurrection was at the last day, Jesus did not correct her.

5. Paul agreed with Jesus in 1 Corin 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The resurrection is at the end, not 7 or 3 ½ years before. All rule and authority is not put down at the beginning of the tribulation!

6. The first resurrection is not mentioned in Revelation until chapter 20!

7. There are no multiple resurrections in scripture for the righteous, in Christ, dead, only one resurrection for that group. That is at the last day, at His coming at the end of the tribulation. John 6

8. A clear reading of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 refutes the theory that the coming of the Lord and our gathering takes place before the man of sin is revealed. This passage has to be interpreted out of existence to make the theory work.

9. There is no clearly worded passage in scripture that places the timing of the resurrection before the tribulation.

10. Passages such as Luke 21:36 are use to try to prove the church is removed before tribulation. This passages does not say all of those in Christ will be found worthy for this escape. The passage clearly says you must pray that you will be found worthy to escape and stand before the son of man.

2 Corinthians 5: 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul said those absent from the body are present with the Lord. Be careful what you pray for you might just get it.

Luke 21:36 is not a get out of tribulation free card.

11. John 14:1-3 verse 2 & 3 says Jesus will go to prepare a place for us, Revelation 21:2 and Revelation 21: 10-27 describes that place prepared for us. There is no other prepared place described in scripoture.

John 14 does not say we will return to heaven for 7 years or at all that is only assumed because of the phrase “ I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also”. When He comes, He will be here to stay, to gather His church, resurrect the dead and set up His kingdom. One can choose to believe Jesus has spent 2000 years preparing temporary housing for the church to hide out during the tribulation, but that is not supported in scripture. I am sure heaven is a fantastically wonderful place but that is not our eternal abode. It is on this earth with Christ during the 1000 year reign and in the new heavens and EARTH in the New Jerusalem.

To support the interpretation John 14 refers to a return trip to heaven what are the other supporting passages that show a return to heaven or resurrected saints in heaven?

There is only one more coming of the Lord in scripture there is only one resurrection of the righteous dead yet future.

Biblewriter · Jun 15, 2016

Postvieww said:
1. There is no reference in the New Testament of comings (plural) of the Lord there are multiple references to the coming (singular). That idea is put forward by arbitrarily dividing up coming of the Lord passages based on difference in wordings.

2. There are no two coming of the Lord passages in scripture that are identical in wording. The argument that in one His feet touch down and in one they do not is not a valid argument. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 are worded differently yet most who hold to the per-tib view agree they speak of the same event. All of these coming of the Lord passages must be harmonized not divided up to support multiple comings.

3. There are no clearly worded passaged that identify resurrected in their new glorified body saints in heaven at any time. There are clearly worded passages that identify souls in heaven that return with Him at His coming to receive their new bodies 1 Thessalonians 4:14.

4. Jesus said 4 times in John 6 the resurrection would be “at the last day”. Martha said to Jesus in John 11:24 the resurrection was at the last day, Jesus did not correct her.

5. Paul agreed with Jesus in 1 Corin 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The resurrection is at the end, not 7 or 3 ½ years before. All rule and authority is not put down at the beginning of the tribulation!

6. The first resurrection is not mentioned in Revelation until chapter 20!

7. There are no multiple resurrections in scripture for the righteous, in Christ, dead, only one resurrection for that group. That is at the last day, at His coming at the end of the tribulation. John 6

8. A clear reading of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 refutes the theory that the coming of the Lord and our gathering takes place before the man of sin is revealed. This passage has to be interpreted out of existence to make the theory work.

9. There is no clearly worded passage in scripture that places the timing of the resurrection before the tribulation.

10. Passages such as Luke 21:36 are use to try to prove the church is removed before tribulation. This passages does not say all of those in Christ will be found worthy for this escape. The passage clearly says you must pray that you will be found worthy to escape and stand before the son of man.

2 Corinthians 5: 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul said those absent from the body are present with the Lord. Be careful what you pray for you might just get it.

Luke 21:36 is not a get out of tribulation free card.

11. John 14:1-3 verse 2 & 3 says Jesus will go to prepare a place for us, Revelation 21:2 and Revelation 21: 10-27 describes that place prepared for us. There is no other prepared place described in scripoture.

John 14 does not say we will return to heaven for 7 years or at all that is only assumed because of the phrase “ I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also”. When He comes, He will be here to stay, to gather His church, resurrect the dead and set up His kingdom. One can choose to believe Jesus has spent 2000 years preparing temporary housing for the church to hide out during the tribulation, but that is not supported in scripture. I am sure heaven is a fantastically wonderful place but that is not our eternal abode. It is on this earth with Christ during the 1000 year reign and in the new heavens and EARTH in the New Jerusalem.

To support the interpretation John 14 refers to a return trip to heaven what are the other supporting passages that show a return to heaven or resurrected saints in heaven?

There is only one more coming of the Lord in scripture there is only one resurrection of the righteous dead yet future.

Your main argument neglects the fact that there was not even one Old Testament passage that even hinted at the idea that Messiah would come more than a single time. But both testaments contain passages about a future coming that are mutually exclusive, if He were only coming once.

vinsight4u · Jun 15, 2016

Postvieww · Jun 15, 2016

Biblewriter said:
Your main argument neglects the fact that there was not even one Old Testament passage that even hinted at the idea that Messiah would come more than a single time. But both testaments contain passages about a future coming that are mutually exclusive, if He were only coming once.

Not true. The passages below clearly speak of two different events.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

First coming.

Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Second coming.

What makes other coming of the Lord passages mutually exclusive is the failure to harmonize them as one event. Differences in wording is not sufficient to divide them. There are no contradictions only different details either mentioned or left out.

vinsight4u · Jun 15, 2016

vinsight4u · Jun 15, 2016

vinsight4u · Jun 15, 2016

Biblewriter · Jun 15, 2016

Postvieww said:
Not true. The passages below clearly speak of two different events.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

First coming.

Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Second coming.

What makes other coming of the Lord passages mutually exclusive is the failure to harmonize them as one event. Differences in wording is not sufficient to divide them. There are no contradictions only different details either mentioned or left out.

Error on both counts. Although the accounts do indeed differ, there was nothing that says he comes more than once. And there are indeed mutually exclusive details in the various scriptures about our Lord's return. I pointed them out in my previous posts, if you had bothered to read them

JLB777 · Jun 15, 2016

Biblewriter said:
Not even one of the scriptures you have quoted either directly states or even implies that "the day of the Lord" and "the rapture" are the same event. In the early part of this thread I posted the scriptures that plainly show that these are two entirely different events that cannot take place at the same time. Instead of considering these scriptures, you have simply presented others that you interpret to mean what they do not actually say.

And the seven years you dismiss the claim of false teachers is the last week of the seventy weeks revealed to Daniel. It is plainly stated in Bible prophecy. And contrary to the claims of some that this was only invented by dispensationalists to justify a pre tribuation rapture, a future fulfillment of this seventieth week was plainly taught in the very oldest Christian commentary on scripture that has survived to the present day. This is a commentary on Daniel, written by a man named Hyppolytus. This is thought to have been written between 202 and 211 A.D. It was also referred to in the very oldest Christian commentary of Bible prophecy of any significant length which has survived to the present day. There were older ones we know abut, but all of them have either been lost or are very short. But the oldest one of any significant length that has come down to us is the last twelve chapters of the very famous five volume work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies." This is thought to have been written between 186 and 188 A.D.

Paul plainly states otherwise in the next two verse's!

The whole foundation of those who peddle the false pre trib rapture doctrine, is an imminent return of Christ, saying... " Jesus could come at any moment, because the Day of the Lord is like a thief in the night".

This is what everyone who pushes this false doctrine says, not knowing or understanding what they say or teach.

The same coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection/rapture, is the same coming of the Lord that destroys the antichrist.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

JLB

Postvieww · Jun 16, 2016

Biblewriter said:
Error on both counts. Although the accounts do indeed differ, there was nothing that says he comes more than once. And there are indeed mutually exclusive details in the various scriptures about our Lord's return. I pointed them out in my previous posts, if you had bothered to read them

Biblewriter said:

Error on both counts. Although the accounts do indeed differ, there was nothing that says he comes more than once.

Of course the words “He’s coming twice” are not there. Your quote was “there was not even one Old Testament passage that even hinted at the idea that Messiah would come more than a single time”.

I stand by my example, If you can’t see a “hint” in two comings in being born of a virgin and coming to and splitting the Mount of Olives you need to explain why.

The Old Testament was looking forward to both events His first coming and His second coming. Where is the hint in the Old Testament of the 3 comings you need to make this work?

The fact is Jesus never “hinted” at two more comings when He spoke about coming again. No New Testament writer ever used the plural of coming. The resurrection is always tied to His coming not one of His comings. The words of Jesus Himself place the resurrection at the last day not 7 years before the last day. The words of Paul places the coming of our Lord and our gathering after the revealing of the man of sin, which in timing agrees with Jesus. Let’s deal with those two facts before we start erroneously dividing up every coming of the Lord passage in the New Testament in an attempt to find another coming.

And there are indeed mutually exclusive details in the various scriptures about our Lord's return. I pointed them out in my previous posts, if you had bothered to read them

If it’s in the first 6 pages of this thread I read it. I just disagree with your conclusion of post #16. You did make some good points about how they missed the prophecies of His first coming. Bottom line is coming born of a virgin is mutually exclusive to splitting the Mount of Olives, but conducting a resurrection and gathering the church at the same coming as fighting against the nations and executing judgment are not mutually exclusive. I just disagree with the premise that the gathering cannot happen at the same coming as the judgement. Where did Jesus “hint” at two comings? Where did Paul “hint” at two comings?

As I pointed out earlier there are no contradictions in coming of the Lord passages, only details mentioned or left out. Coming as a baby born of a virgin and setting foot on and splitting the Mount of Olives is a contradiction.

Biblewriter · Jun 16, 2016

Postvieww said:
Of course the words “He’s coming twice” are not there. Your quote was “there was not even one Old Testament passage that even hinted at the idea that Messiah would come more than a single time”.

I stand by my example, If you can’t see a “hint” in two comings in being born of a virgin and coming to and splitting the Mount of Olives you need to explain why.

Are you aware that Preterists claim that Zechariah 14:4 was fulfilled in the first coming of Christ? There is zero obvious conflict between someone being born of a virgin and that same person standing on the Mount of Olives as it cleaves in two.

The fact that the two comings were never even hinted at in the Old Testament is clearly shown by the fact that even the men that were used by God to give them could not understand the apparent contradiction between these prophecies.

"... the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow." 1 Peter 1:10-11

Luke17:37 · Jun 16, 2016

Biblewriter said:
Are you aware that Preterists claim that Zechariah 14:4 was fulfilled in the first coming of Christ? There is zero obvious conflict between someone being born of a virgin and that same person standing on the Mount of Olives as it cleaves in two.

The fact that the two comings were never even hinted at in the Old Testament is clearly shown by the fact that even the men that were used by God to give them could not understand the apparent contradiction between these prophecies.

"... the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow." 1 Peter 1:10-11

But the Mount of Olives is not split in half, with one part north, the other south, and a valley formed in between. So the preterists are wrong.

Biblewriter · Jun 16, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
But the Mount of Olives is not split in half, with one part north, the other south, and a valley formed in between. So the preterists are wrong.

I am quite aware of that. But they pretend that a half inch wide and half mile long crack that developed in the earthquake when Jesus died was a fulfillment of that part of the prophecy. This is just typical of their lunacy.

Rapture timing

Active Member

Matthew 4:4

Matthew 4:4

Matthew 4:4

Senior Member

Senior Member

Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

Believer

Senior Member

Contributor

Believer

Contributor

Contributor

Contributor

Senior Member

Newbie

Believer

Senior Member

Well-Known Member

Attachments

Senior Member

Similar threads