How does any of the passages above prove the day of the Lord is the day of our gathering you mentioned below?
"The day of Christ is the day of our gathering. This is also the day of the Lord."
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Rapture timing
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How does any of the passages above prove the day of the Lord is the day of our gathering you mentioned below?
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Luke17:37
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I disagree with you about the original plan being for Jesus to never leave. I don't see any basis for that. The kingdom of God was at hand because Jesus invited us to be a part of His spiritual kingdom, and this made possible because He humbled Himself to become the sinless Lamb of God sacrificed for us. We ask others others to join us and be reconciled go God. Some day when this message goes to every nation, tribe, and tongue, He will return to reign on the earth. I do believe infants will play near the cobra's nest.
Zechariah 14 clearly states that there will be survivors from the nations to Jesus' return.
He will destroy the army gathered against Jerusalem (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:12-15) but not necessarily everyone else on the face of the earth. The day of the LORD will be characterized by the death of the wicked, though (Luke 17:37).
Zechariah 14:16-21
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
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Hey Dave, I agree with you the rapture happens in the winter season as stated in several scriptures but I'm just curious to know why only January and not February or March as winter ends on March 19th on the year when the rapture happens. There's also a full blood moon falling on January 31st (falling on the winter season) during that year and Joel 2:30-31 mentions the day of the Lord shortly after the blood moon.
Just picking your brain to find out if you know something I don't.
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vinsight, if you read the prior verse, you can see the other angels John was alluding to as the other angels. The four angels in verse 1 are standing, not ascending.
Revelation 7:1-2New King James Version (NKJV)
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
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Correct, this is what I'm asking. How does all those passage about the church being blameless prove the day of the Lord is the day of our gathering?
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greenguzzi
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Winter starts in June down here. Does that mean I get to go early!? (Or maybe it'll be late). :-/
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You're not reading the bible correctly vinsight. This is all that John said, nothing more!
~ There's 4 angels standing in the four corners of the earth holding the four winds.
~ There's 1 angel coming from the east delays the 4 angels from releasing the four winds until the 144,000 are sealed.
Revelation 7:1-4 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
John did not say the 4 angels "have been given things by the angels that will go about sealing people."
John said the four angels stands at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds, preventing it from blowing the earth harming the earth, the sea and the trees.
You said: "They have been given things by the angels that will go about sealing people."
vinsight, if the four angels holding the four winds were given things to seal the 144,000, who would hold the four winds if they went to go seal the 144,000?
You also said: "The final angel to come from the east has the trees plague."
There is no such thing as tree plague mentioned in Revelation 7:1-4. The angel ascending from the east does not come with any plague. He's the one (an whoever the "we" are) sealing the 144,000.
vinsight, read Ezekiel 9 carefully. This is not in reference to Revelation 7 and has nothing to do with it.
Ezekiel 9 Good News Translation (GNT)
1 Then I heard God shout, “Come here, you men who are going to punish the city. Bring your weapons with you.” 2 At once six men came from the outer north gate of the Temple, each one carrying a weapon. With them was a man dressed in linen clothes, carrying something to write with. They all came and stood by the bronze altar.
3 Then the dazzling light of the presence of the God of Israel rose up from the winged creatures where it had been, and moved to the entrance of the Temple. The Lord called to the man dressed in linen, 4 “Go through the whole city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the forehead of everyone who is distressed and troubled because of all the disgusting things being done in the city.”
5 And I heard God say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill. Spare no one; have mercy on no one. 6 Kill the old men, young men, young women, mothers, and children. But don't touch anyone who has the mark on his forehead. Start here at my Temple.” So they began with the leaders who were standing there at the Temple.
7 God said to them, “Defile the Temple. Fill its courtyards with corpses. Get to work!” So they began to kill the people in the city.
8 While the killing was going on, I was there alone. I threw myself face downward on the ground and shouted, “Sovereign Lord, are you so angry with Jerusalem that you are going to kill everyone left in Israel?”
9 God answered, “The people of Israel and Judah are guilty of terrible sins. They have committed murder all over the land and have filled Jerusalem with crime. They say that I, the Lord, have abandoned their country and that I don't see them. 10 But I will not have pity on them; I will do to them what they have done to others.”
11 Then the man wearing linen clothes returned and reported to the Lord, “I have carried out your orders.”
1 Then I heard God shout, “Come here, you men who are going to punish the city. Bring your weapons with you.” 2 At once six men came from the outer north gate of the Temple, each one carrying a weapon. With them was a man dressed in linen clothes, carrying something to write with. They all came and stood by the bronze altar.
3 Then the dazzling light of the presence of the God of Israel rose up from the winged creatures where it had been, and moved to the entrance of the Temple. The Lord called to the man dressed in linen, 4 “Go through the whole city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the forehead of everyone who is distressed and troubled because of all the disgusting things being done in the city.”
5 And I heard God say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill. Spare no one; have mercy on no one. 6 Kill the old men, young men, young women, mothers, and children. But don't touch anyone who has the mark on his forehead. Start here at my Temple.” So they began with the leaders who were standing there at the Temple.
7 God said to them, “Defile the Temple. Fill its courtyards with corpses. Get to work!” So they began to kill the people in the city.
8 While the killing was going on, I was there alone. I threw myself face downward on the ground and shouted, “Sovereign Lord, are you so angry with Jerusalem that you are going to kill everyone left in Israel?”
9 God answered, “The people of Israel and Judah are guilty of terrible sins. They have committed murder all over the land and have filled Jerusalem with crime. They say that I, the Lord, have abandoned their country and that I don't see them. 10 But I will not have pity on them; I will do to them what they have done to others.”
11 Then the man wearing linen clothes returned and reported to the Lord, “I have carried out your orders.”
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The bible focuses on the time, day and season of what Israel and the Middle East falls on. It goes by the Hebrews calendar, not the Gregorian calendar the world uses. Thinking or stating otherwise would be a misunderstanding of scripture. The winter season of the rapture for the correct year starts on the 3rd of Tevet and ends on the 3rd of Nisan.
That depends! Do you believe in a pre-trib rapture, a post-trib gathering or none of the above?
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But that's Summer for me!
Move to Israel.
If not now, you will after the tribulation.
A big pow wow will be held there when Christ returns as everyone on earth by then knows He is the Messiah.
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greenguzzi
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I'd never heard that before, interesting. Winter is coming.
Strictly speaking, being an amillennialist, my answer is "none of the above". But I guess that amills are also post-trib by default. (Many of our brethren in Syria Iraq and Libya have recently lived and died through the tribulation.)
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Are you saying that "unsealed" means "symbolic"? If so, how? For wouldn't it make more sense for something unsealed to consist almost entirely of literal statements rather than mysterious symbols?
Regarding "the apocalyptic genre", note that Revelation itself, as a whole, can be almost entirely literal, because, as scripture, it is not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general. Revelation, like other scripture, was written by the inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16), meaning that it wasn't written by the will of man, but written by a holy man as he was moved by the Holy Spirit to write it (cf. 2 Peter 1:21), so that the words of Revelation are what the Holy Spirit himself spoke (cf. Acts 1:16, Acts 28:25b). And nothing about these words requires that Revelation can't be almost entirely literal.
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Why does partial preterism believe in a future 2nd coming, but not a future tribulation, when:
1. The 2nd coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);
2. The 2nd coming and rapture can't occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the tribulation and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and
3. At Jesus' 2nd coming to rapture and marry the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?
Partial preterism might answer: "It is obvious that the 2nd coming hasn't happened yet". And that's right. But full preterism nonetheless still (mistakenly) claims that the 2nd coming, resurrection, and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it's only allegorical, not literal" argument which partial preterism uses to (mistakenly) claim that all the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting that the 2nd coming, resurrection of the church, and rapture haven't yet occurred, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting the fact that the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 haven't yet occurred either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?
Note that just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.
To put it another way, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), should be relevant to every Christian regardless of whether or not he thinks that he will still be alive to go through it, just as, for example, the past fulfillment of Genesis chapters 1 to 11 should be relevant to every Christian regardless of him not being alive at that time to experience it. For all scripture regarding all times is profitable to all Christians in all times (2 Timothy 3:16).
Also, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 should be especially relevant to every Christian alive today. For the main reason that the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).
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On the other hand, preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.
Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.
But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).
Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Note that the Gospel of Mark says that the gospel begins with Mark 1:1. And so the gospel can include everything in the Gospels, including their eschatological teachings (e.g. Mark 13). And if the gospel can include New Testament eschatological teachings, then it can include the eschatological book of Revelation, and all of Paul's eschatological and soteriological teachings, which he rightly claims are based on Old Testament prophecies (Acts 26:22-23). This is why Christians hold to the entire Bible as being vital to Christian faith (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4, John 8:31b, Matthew 4:4).
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The Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That is why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).
The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15), and which will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least 2 major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).
Both accounts of the event show that the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the great white throne judgment.
Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).
Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the millennium, at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).
And Jerusalem could be attacked and totally defeated in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).
Actually, there is no conflict, because, for example, Revelation 19:19-21 on the one hand, and Revelation 20:7-9 and Ezekiel chapters 38-39 on the other, are 2 different sets of events, separated by over 1,000 years (Revelation 19:19 to 20:9). After the 1st set of events, Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3), whereas after the 2nd set of events, he will be cast into the lake of fire to suffer forever (Revelation 20:10).
Revelation 19:19-21 is the battle at Jesus' 2nd coming, which Zechariah 14:2-5 shows will occur at Jerusalem. After that battle will occur Jesus' physical reign on the earth (Zechariah 14:9-21) with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). It won't be until after the 1,000 years that the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).
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Actually, Jesus not establishing the physical aspect of his kingdom at his 1st coming wasn't a failure. For he was never meant to establish it at his 1st coming. Instead, he was meant to meekly suffer and die on the Cross for our sins (Isaiah 53), by which work the spiritual aspect of his kingdom (Romans 14:17) could be established on the earth first. It wasn't a contingency plan, but was always determined, that he wouldn't establish the physical aspect of his kingdom until his 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:3-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).
Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).
Luke 17:27,29 and Matthew 24:39 don't mean that all unsaved people will be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming. For Luke 17:34-36 and Matthew 24:40-41 go on to show that some unsaved people will be left alive at that time (Zechariah 14:16-19). So in Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:37-39, the point of the comparison isn't that all unsaved people will be killed at the 2nd coming, but that none of them will be expecting to be killed, but will be eating and drinking without worry right up to the day of the 2nd coming.
Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).
The 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the temporal (i.e. not the eternal) judgment of the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before its temporal (not its eternal) judgment (cf. Ezekiel 16:53-56), so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming, temporal (not the eternal) judgment of the unsaved world alive at that time (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).
Regarding the final judgment of the unsaved, when Jesus returns, only the church will be physically resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the physically resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).
Some of the unsaved people in the millennium may be utterly destroyed due to continued disobedience (Psalms 2:9b, cf. the idea of Jeremiah 19:11), while others won't be destroyed because they will submit themselves to Jesus (Psalms 2:10-12). For just as when someone figuratively "breaks" a horse, he doesn't destroy it, but forces it to submit to him, so Psalms 2:9 doesn't require that all the unsaved people left alive at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) will eventually be destroyed by him. Instead, Psalms 2:9a can refer to some of them being only figuratively "broken" by him, so that they will submit to his physical, worldwide reign during the millennium (Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). That is why other verses say that Jesus and the physically resurrected church will "rule" the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15, Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6), not kill all of them. And why after the millennium, there will still be nations (ethnos) alive on the earth who will be deceived by Satan into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).
Also, in Psalms 2:9a, the original Hebrew word (ra'a, H7489) translated as "break" can be translated simply as "hurt" (Psalms 15:4b), in the sense of suffering trouble which is less then total destruction. The ways that Jesus will "hurt", or punish, disobedient nations during his millennial rule on the earth are shown in Zechariah 14:16-19.
Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).
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Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 are 2 different sets of events. For Revelation 6:12-13 will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, whereas Matthew 24:29-31 (like Revelation 19:7-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29). Also, when Revelation 6:12-13 occurs, the moon's light will appear blood-red, whereas when Matthew 24:29 occurs, the moon's light won't be seen at all. There will also be one point between the time of Revelation 6:12-13 and the time of Matthew 24:29 when the moon's light temporarily won't be seen at all, during 1/3 of the night (Revelation 8:12).
Also, the sun temporarily appearing to be darkened in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the 1st time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For it will happen again during the 4th trumpet (part of the tribulation's 2nd stage), for 1/3 of the day (Revelation 8:12), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2), and then again during the 5th vial (Revelation 16:10), part of the tribulation's 4th and final stage, the 3rd stage being the literal 3.5-year time period of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14). Also, what will appear like "stars" falling from the sky in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the 1st time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For subsequently, during the 3rd trumpet, what will appear like a star will fall from the sky (Revelation 8:10-11), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:1). And then again, mid-tribulation, what will appear like stars will descend from the sky (Revelation 12:4).
Note that the sky rolling up like a scroll in both Isaiah 34:4 and Revelation 6:14 doesn't require that they are the same event, just as, for example, the similarity between Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12-13 doesn't require that they are the same event.
To properly understand Isaiah 34:4, it should be read in its context (Isaiah 34:1-17).
Isaiah 34:4 refers to a future event which will affect "all nations" (Isaiah 34:2), the whole world (Isaiah 34:1).
In Isaiah 34:5, "Idumea" (Edom) isn't (as is sometimes claimed) the ancient nation of Edom (present-day southern Jordan), but represents all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as Paul the apostle employs a reference to the man "Esau" (also called Edom: Genesis 25:30, Genesis 36:1) to represent all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world (Romans 9:11-22). And in Isaiah 34:6, "Bozrah" isn't the ancient city of Bozrah, but represents the corrupt civilizations of the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as the "Babylon" which will be destroyed in our future in Revelation chapters 17-18 isn't the literal, ancient city of Babylon (nor the present-day one, in Iraq), but represents the corrupt civilizations of the nonelect people of all times throughout the world.
Isaiah 34 doesn't refer to the destruction of the ancient city of Bozrah. For its territory is in present-day Jordan, and it is still inhabited (it could be the city of Busaira). It is not an eternally-burning land of fire and brimstone which no living person ever passes through and won't ever pass through for all eternity (Isaiah 34:9-10).
Isaiah 34 won't be fulfilled until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), when the present surface of the earth and its atmosphere (the 1st heaven) will pass away (Revelation 20:11). And all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world will be judged and cast into the eternal lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15,10, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 14:10-11).
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greenguzzi
Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way
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That is utterly ridiculous. With that attitude there is no point discussing scripture at all. I'm sorry, but I have no idea how to interact with anti-intellectuals.
Judging from your comment above, you need to learn a fair bit more about Bible genres in general - and apocalyptic literature specifically - before there could possibly be any value in us discussing this matter further. Not an insult, just a practical consideration. (It's not like I'm saying anything unorthodox.)
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