Rapture timing

greenguzzi · Jun 12, 2016

Biblewriter said:
While only the 20th chapter of the Revelation states that the coming earthly kingdom will last a thousand years, that future kingdom itself is the subject of a major portion of the Bible. Amillennialism requires a rejection of the explicit statements large portions of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and most of the minor prophets, as well as parts of the gospels, the epistles and the Revelation. All of these, even though explicitly stated in plain words, must be interpreted to mean something entirely different from what they say.

Amillennialism doesn't require rejection of any scripture, it just requires rejection of a simplistic/literal interpretation of scripture.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Biblewriter · Jun 12, 2016

greenguzzi said:
Amillennialism doesn't require rejection of any scripture, it just requires rejection of a simplistic/literal interpretation of scripture.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

As I said, it requires a rejection of the explicit statements that comprise large portions of the Bible. It requires a conclusion that NONE of these VERY many EXPLICIT statements mean what they so VERY PLAINLY say.

vinsight4u · Jun 12, 2016

greenguzzi · Jun 12, 2016

Biblewriter said:
As I said, it requires a rejection of the explicit statements that comprise large portions of the Bible. It requires a conclusion that NONE of these VERY many EXPLICIT statements mean what they so VERY PLAINLY say.

Ok then, let's clarify this a little - maybe you can convince me. What do you consider the single most explicit statement from scripture that would not support amillennialism? (Except from Revelation, that would be too easy to refute.)

Biblewriter · Jun 12, 2016

greenguzzi said:
Ok then, let's clarify this a little - maybe you can convince me. What do you consider the single most explicit statement from scripture that would not support amillennialism? (Except from Revelation, that would be too easy to refute.)

I will give you several.

Eze 36:1 "And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, 'O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD! 2 Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because the enemy has said of you, 'Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession,' " ' 3 therefore prophesy, and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because they made you desolate and swallowed you up on every side, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you are taken up by the lips of talkers and slandered by the people"-- 4 therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around-- 5 therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave My land to themselves as a possession, with whole-hearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country." ' 6 Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations." 7 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame. 8 "But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come. 9 For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. 10 I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. 11 I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bear young; I will make you inhabited as in former times, and do better for you than at your beginnings. Then you shall know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 36:1-11

Here, the Lord very explicitly tells "the mountains of Israel," with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken," that they will again be inhabited by "all the house of Israel, all of it." There is no way to even pretend that absolutely all of "the house of Israel" has ever inhabited that land at any time since these words were uttered. And it would be totally irrational to claim that this explicit language is symbolically speaking of the church inhabiting --- what?

Again, we read:

Eze 47:13 Thus says the Lord GOD: "These are the borders by which you shall divide the land as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph shall have two portions. 14 You shall inherit it equally with one another; for I raised My hand in an oath to give it to your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance. 15 This shall be the border of the land on the north: from the Great Sea, by the road to Hethlon, as one goes to Zedad, 16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim (which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath), to Hazar Hatticon (which is on the border of Hauran). 17 Thus the boundary shall be from the Sea to Hazar Enan, the border of Damascus; and as for the north, northward, it is the border of Hamath. This is the north side. 18 On the east side you shall mark out the border from between Hauran and Damascus, and between Gilead and the land of Israel, along the Jordan, and along the eastern side of the sea. This is the east side. 19 The south side, toward the South, shall be from Tamar to the waters of Meribah by Kadesh, along the brook to the Great Sea. This is the south side, toward the South. 20 The west side shall be the Great Sea, from the southern boundary until one comes to a point opposite Hamath. This is the west side. 21 "Thus you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. Ezekiel 47:13-21

Here, the Lord explicitly defined the borders of that nation in that coming day. And there is no way to even pretend that these borders were ever established after this was written. And there is no rational way to apply this to "the church."

And finally (for now)

Eze 48:1 "Now these are the names of the tribes: From the northern border along the road to Hethlon at the entrance of Hamath, to Hazar Enan, the border of Damascus northward, in the direction of Hamath, there shall be one section for Dan from its east to its west side; 2 by the border of Dan, from the east side to the west, one section for Asher; 3 by the border of Asher, from the east side to the west, one section for Naphtali; 4 by the border of Naphtali, from the east side to the west, one section for Manasseh; 5 by the border of Manasseh, from the east side to the west, one section for Ephraim; 6 by the border of Ephraim, from the east side to the west, one section for Reuben; 7 by the border of Reuben, from the east side to the west, one section for Judah; 8 "by the border of Judah, from the east side to the west, shall be the district which you shall set apart, twenty-five thousand cubits in width, and in length the same as one of the other portions, from the east side to the west, with the sanctuary in the center. 9 "The district that you shall set apart for the LORD shall be twenty-five thousand cubits in length and ten thousand in width. 10 To these--to the priests--the holy district shall belong: on the north twenty-five thousand cubits in length, on the west ten thousand in width, on the east ten thousand in width, and on the south twenty-five thousand in length. The sanctuary of the LORD shall be in the center. 11 It shall be for the priests of the sons of Zadok, who are sanctified, who have kept My charge, who did not go astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray. 12 And this district of land that is set apart shall be to them a thing most holy by the border of the Levites. 13 "Opposite the border of the priests, the Levites shall have an area twenty-five thousand cubits in length and ten thousand in width; its entire length shall be twenty-five thousand and its width ten thousand. 14 And they shall not sell or exchange any of it; they may not alienate this best part of the land, for it is holy to the LORD. 15 "The five thousand cubits in width that remain, along the edge of the twenty-five thousand, shall be for general use by the city, for dwellings and common-land; and the city shall be in the center. 16 These shall be its measurements: the north side four thousand five hundred cubits, the south side four thousand five hundred, the east side four thousand five hundred, and the west side four thousand five hundred. 17 The common-land of the city shall be: to the north two hundred and fifty cubits, to the south two hundred and fifty, to the east two hundred and fifty, and to the west two hundred and fifty. 18 The rest of the length, alongside the district of the holy section, shall be ten thousand cubits to the east and ten thousand to the west. It shall be adjacent to the district of the holy section, and its produce shall be food for the workers of the city. 19 The workers of the city, from all the tribes of Israel, shall cultivate it. 20 The entire district shall be twenty-five thousand cubits by twenty-five thousand cubits, foursquare. You shall set apart the holy district with the property of the city. 21 "The rest shall belong to the prince, on one side and on the other of the holy district and of the city's property, next to the twenty-five thousand cubits of the holy district as far as the eastern border, and westward next to the twenty-five thousand as far as the western border, adjacent to the tribal portions; it shall belong to the prince. It shall be the holy district, and the sanctuary of the temple shall be in the center. 22 Moreover, apart from the possession of the Levites and the possession of the city which are in the midst of what belongs to the prince, the area between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin shall belong to the prince. 23 As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side to the west, Benjamin shall have one section; 24 by the border of Benjamin, from the east side to the west, Simeon shall have one section; 25 by the border of Simeon, from the east side to the west, Issachar shall have one section; 26 by the border of Issachar, from the east side to the west, Zebulun shall have one section; 27 by the border of Zebulun, from the east side to the west, Gad shall have one section; 28 by the border of Gad, on the south side, toward the South, the border shall be from Tamar to the waters of Meribah by Kadesh, along the brook to the Great Sea. 29 This is the land which you shall divide by lot as an inheritance among the tribes of Israel, and these are their portions," says the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 48:1-29

Here, the Lord very explicitly names each of the twelve tribes, as they will exist at that time, explicitly stating which portion of the land was to belong to each of the twelve tribes, and reserving a central section for a temple, for the priests, and for the prince who will rule at that time. And once again, there is no way to even pretend that this has ever happened, and no rational way to interpret this to mean "the church."

Bible2+ · Jun 13, 2016

greenguzzi said in post 181:

Amillennialism doesn't require rejection of any scripture, it just requires rejection of a simplistic/literal interpretation of scripture.

Amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of full preterism (2 Timothy 2:18). For claiming that the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is already present requires that Jesus' 2nd coming has already happened. For the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 won't happen until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Also, amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of partial preterism. For claiming that the resurrection of those beheaded by the Antichrist during the future tribulation and their subsequent reigning on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) is already present, requires that the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year worldwide reign during the tribulation (Revelation 13:4-18) has already happened. Also, amillennialism is mistaken because it requires that the devil is currently bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-6), when in fact he is currently walking around on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8), and he won't be bound until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).

greenguzzi said in post 181:

Amillennialism doesn't require rejection of any scripture, it just requires rejection of a simplistic/literal interpretation of scripture.

Note that Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

Bible2+ · Jun 13, 2016

vinsight4u said in post 183:

No pre-trib rapture is going to happen.

That's right (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Also, the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think: "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or Jesus' return, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

vinsight4u said in post 183:

The church is here till the 6th seal has been opened and Jesus is seen sitting on the right hand of power, and coming after that.

Note that there is no coming of Jesus or rapture at the 6th seal.

The "face of him that sitteth on the throne" part of Revelation 6:16 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) the world actually seeing the face of God sitting on his throne in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 4:2), or the world seeing Jesus on his white horse at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11), but rather the world expressing its fear of dying during or immediately after the 6th-seal event. For seeing the face of God means death (Exodus 33:20).

The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

vinsight4u said in post 183:

His wrath will not start till this seal.

Note that the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the 1st stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath, none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

vinsight4u said in post 183:

This places the 7th trumpet also here.

Then are you of the pre-wrath rapture view, instead of the post-tribulation rapture view?

Regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (to us) (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13), right when the 7th trumpet sounds. It won't be until a little later that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It is like if someone said: "It is time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 which will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be physically resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the 1st vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will physically resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

Bible2+ · Jun 13, 2016

Biblewriter said in post 185:

. . . Ezekiel 36:1-11

Here, the Lord very explicitly tells "the mountains of Israel," with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken," that they will again be inhabited by "all the house of Israel, all of it." There is no way to even pretend that absolutely all of "the house of Israel" has ever inhabited that land at any time since these words were uttered.

That can indeed be millennial.

I.e., Ezekiel chapters 36-37 could refer to a restoration of the Jews to their land during the future millennium.

Also, it should be pointed out that Jews include individuals from tribes of Israel other than Judah. For Paul is truly a Jew (Acts 22:3), and he is of the tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1). Indeed, Jews include individuals from all 12 of Israel's tribes, for there are no lost tribes, insofar as the 10 northern tribes weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC, the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the 10 northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history.

For some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom, when it first become idolatrous some individuals from all 10 of the northern tribes left the northern kingdom to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so by definition they all became Jews. Also, some individuals from the 10 northern tribes remained in the land of Israel even after its defeat by Assyria, and some of them went to Judah at the time of Hezekiah (2 Chronicles 30). It is for these reasons that later the Jews who returned from the Babylonian Captivity could be referred to as "all Israel" (Ezra 2:70, Ezra 6:17, Ezra 8:25,35, Ezra 10:5, Nehemiah 7:73, Nehemiah 12:47), and why the Jews living in the 1st century AD could be referred to as including all 12 tribes (Acts 26:7, James 1:1, Acts 2:36,22,5), and why at that time Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the so-called "lost" tribes.

So the people alive today who are descended genetically from a 1st century AD Jew would include individuals from all 12 tribes. Some of these descendants could know that they are Jews because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and didn't intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years eventually abandoned their Jewish identity, and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today are almost entirely Gentile genetically. Similarly, regarding the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity: over the past 2,700 years, their descendants must have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity and freely intermarried with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today would know themselves only as Gentiles, and would be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

Also, while God knows which people alive today are descended from one of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel from whom the 12 genetic tribes arose (Genesis 49:28), nonelect Israelites/Jews aren't considered by God to be truly Israel (Romans 9:6-11) or truly Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9), or God's children or Abraham's children, but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all the nonelect, no matter whether they are Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

Some genetic Israelites are believers, and so are members of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6) and Israel at the same time, just as, for example, the genetic Jew Paul the apostle (Acts 22:3) is a member of the church and Israel at the same time (Romans 11:1). And some still-living, non-believing genetic Israelites are still considered by God to be Israel insofar as they are elect (Romans 11:25,28). All the still-living, elect, non-believing genetic Israelites who don't become believers before Jesus' 2nd coming will become believers (and so will become members of the church: cf. Ephesians 4:4-6) at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), when they will see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect, genetic Israelites will eventually become believers and be saved, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

Biblewriter said in post 185:

. . . Ezekiel 47:13-21

Here, the Lord explicitly defined the borders of that nation in that coming day. And there is no way to even pretend that these borders were ever established after this was written.

Note that Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 aren't necessarily a prophecy of future events which must happen, like those in Revelation must happen (Revelation 1:1), but could have been a conditional vision which Israel had to fulfill while it was still in Old Testament/Old Covenant times (Ezekiel 43:11). For the vision refers to animal sacrifices for sin (e.g. Ezekiel 43:21-22), which were abolished by Jesus on the Cross, along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Hebrews 7:18-19, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18). Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice for sin (Matthew 26:28) completely and forever replaced all the Old Covenant animal sacrifices for sin (Hebrews 10:1-23).

Nonetheless, when Jesus returns and begins his millennial reign on the earth (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:3-21), he will still build a New Covenant, 4th temple building in Jerusalem; and New Covenant animal sacrifices will be offered in front of that temple (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). Instead of these sacrifices being for sin, they could be for thanksgiving (cf. Leviticus 22:29). Jesus could build that temple, and it could be operated according to the description in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48, but leaving out the parts about animal sacrifices for sin. Another possibility is that New Covenant animal sacrifices for sin will be made, but only as a remembrance of Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28), like how communion is currently partaken of in remembrance of Jesus' sacrifice (Luke 22:19). The current practice of communion could cease at Jesus' return (1 Corinthians 11:26).

Also, after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), when the literal city of New Jerusalem will land on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3), there will no longer be any temple building (Revelation 21:22).

--

If Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 are a prophecy of future events, and weren't only a conditional vision which now will never be fulfilled, the sabbath and feasts (e.g. Ezekiel 46:4,9) won't be those of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, but a better version of them, under the New Covenant.

For on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The rules in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 are different in detail from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For example, note all the differences in the details of the passover animal sacrifice requirements of Ezekiel 45:21-25 and those of Numbers 28:16-24.

Biblewriter said in post 185:

. . . Ezekiel 48:1-29

Here, the Lord very explicitly names each of the twelve tribes, as they will exist at that time, explicitly stating which portion of the land was to belong to each of the twelve tribes, and reserving a central section for a temple, for the priests, and for the prince who will rule at that time. And once again, there is no way to even pretend that this has ever happened, and no rational way to interpret this to mean "the church."

Note that if even those who are "strangers" in Israel can inherit the land of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly believing Gentiles, who are "no more strangers" to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), will inherit the land of Israel during the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. And they will inherit the land and all the other promises given to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29, Genesis 12:7) along with all the elect Jews who have ever been saved in the past or who will get saved in our future, including at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).

For all those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7-8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

greenguzzi · Jun 13, 2016

Bible2+ said:
Amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of full preterism (2 Timothy 2:18).

Um no, it doesn't. Very few amills are full preterists. I certainly ain't. So the rest of your post is irrelevant to the discussion.

Biblewriter · Jun 13, 2016

The claim that Ezekiel 40-48 "could be a conditional vision" is a denial of the fact that they explicitly state that these things will indeed happen. But it is most certainly correct that this section does not show a return to the Mosaic law. For the laws described there are distinctly different from the Mosaic law. The most noticeable of these differences is that "the prince" will also be a priest. Under the law of Moses, these functions were committed to totally different tribes, much less different individuals.

Biblewriter · Jun 13, 2016

The notion that all Israelites are not Jews is false, because the end time prophecies show Judah (the Jews) in her land during Daniel's seventieth week, but Isaiah 66 very clearly shows all Israel being returned to the land after, not before, the Lord comes "with fire, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire."

Also, Ezekiel 20 very clearly shows the Lord confronting returning Israel "face to face" and purging out all the rebels from among them. And it explicitly states, concerning these rebels that "I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel." Ezekiel 20:38

greenguzzi · Jun 13, 2016

Bible2+ said:
Note that Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed, meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally

Unsealed yes, and don't forget "revealed" too. But unsealed and revealed is not the same as "literal". Revelation is of the apocalyptic genre, and as such uses mysterious and symbolic language; about as far from "literal" as one could get.

And then you make a jump from the simply-wrong to the ludicrous, by saying that saved people of any time can understand it if they simply read it as it is written. Well this thread alone is enough to prove that wrong. Even those who hold to the same flavour of premill can't seem to agree on what it "literally" means.

This is also irrational. I have little doubt that those for whom Revelation was originally written could understand it with a little effort. But there is no reason to assume that we, being from a different culture, could understand an unfamiliar genre written thousands of years ago in an ancient language; just because we happen to also be "saved". Sure, it can still be understood by scholars of our generation, but not "literally". It can possibly be understood with a lot of work and knowledge, but never literally.

To claim that one can understand Revelation by simply reading it literally is somewhat arrogant I would think.

greenguzzi · Jun 13, 2016

Biblewriter said:
I will give you several.

I enquired what you considered "the single most explicit statement from scripture to make your point" for a reason (well, a couple of reasons). Any valid point of view really only needs one good argument to support it. So I get suspicious when anyone uses a barrage of arguments to make their point. It's like one doesn't have any real confidence in their position, so throws as much "stuff" out there as possible, hoping that something will stick. (Hence my "Gish Gallop" comment earlier.) So a test of mine is to see if anyone who has a view contrary to mine is able support their view with just one or two arguments. I find that when they do their views are almost always challenging. Another (more cynical) reason is that I don't have time to rebuff more than one or two arguments.

My two favourite posts so far in this thread are the following:

Hazrus said:
[... ...]Having said that, I don't believe that my beliefs (Amill, partial preterism, etc) are bulletproof either; it's just that I think they have less logical holes than the pre-trib/Mill beliefs.

Which is pretty much where I stand too. It's not that I have it all worked out, it's just that I'm pretty sure that "Amill, partial preterism, etc" is better than any other theory I've heard so far. The beauty of being amill is that I don't waste my time working out (and arguing) time-lines and such. Which theoretically gives me more time for more important stuff.

Which brings me to my other favourite post in the thread:

BadHabit said:
I have to kind of just shake my head in disbelief though that people put so much time and effort into trying to figure out what is going to happen tomorrow or a hundred years from now instead of concentrating on today.

Amen to that! Which again brings me to amillennialism. Reading the Bible with an amillennial eschatology frees us up to read all the so-called "end time" scriptures with an application for today, rather than a day in the (possibly distant) future. Sure it's fun to speculate, but whatever one's eschatology, it's pretty much a waste of time arguing over it. The devil laughs while Christians argue over time-lines instead of spreading the Good News. (Yes, I'm a hypocrite here, but I tell myself I'm really just trying to free others from the curse of millennialism.)

Biblewriter · Jun 13, 2016

greenguzzi said:
Reading the Bible with an amillennial eschatology frees us up to read all the so-called "end time" scriptures with an application for today, rather than a day in the (possibly distant) future. Sure it's fun to speculate, but whatever one's eschatology, it's pretty much a waste of time arguing over it. The devil laughs while Christians argue over time-lines instead of spreading the Good News. (Yes, I'm a hypocrite here, but I tell myself I'm really just trying to free others from the curse of millennialism.)

Simply accepting the explicit statements of coming events is not "speculation," but belief.

But I will agree with you that it is simple nonsense to even imagine that the Revelation is literal. Without even a single exception, every prophetic dream or vision in the entire Bible, which is accompanied by an inspired interpretation, had a meaning entirely different from what the prophet saw.

But explicit statements of coming events are just the opposite. Again, without a single exception, every explicit statement of a coming event in the entire Bible, and which has been fulfilled, has been fulfilled literally, down to the tiniest detail. Take, for example, the first 35 verses of Daniel 11. They were fulfilled in such amazing detail that unbelievers claim that their very accuracy proves they could not have been written before the prophesied events actually took place. And well over a hundred prophecies about the first coming of our Lord Jesus were fulfilled literally, in fine detail.

greenguzzi · Jun 13, 2016

Biblewriter said:
I will give you several.

OK, I've read what you have to say, but I'm not sure I get your point. Maybe we are at cross-purposes, or maybe I'm being thick, and need some more explanations.

When I say I'm an amillennialist, I mean that I don't believe that the 1000 years mentioned in Revelation is literal. Yes, it's an actual period of time, but it's an "age", not an actual "1000 years". It also means that I believe that we are in this "millennial" age now, and that it's spiritual. But it doesn't mean that I can't believe that prophecies regarding ethnic or national Israel can't be literal and be in the future. (I currently don't believe this to be the case, but that's irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion.)

JLB777 · Jun 13, 2016

Biblewriter said:
Any denial that the rapture will take place is a denial of explicitly stated scripture, and is therefore rank unbelief.

But the timing of the rapture is a legitimate subject for discussion. For ALL positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of various scriptures. There is simply no scripture that explicitly states the timing of this event.

And MOST differences of opinion on this subject have their roots, not in the scriptures under consideration, but in ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of the words these scriptures use to describe associated topics.

My ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of these words leads me to the conclusion that the rapture takes place before the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week.

Other people make different ASSUMPTIONS about the meaning of these same words. And these ASSUMPTIONS lead them to the conclusion that the rapture takes place at the time the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the wicked.

From another thread:

The error here is an unfounded conclusion that the Lord is only returning one time. There is no scripture anywhere that says this. This conclusion is unfounded because it is based on rank ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of various words used to describe our Lord's return.

What is so sad, is most Christians who have made the claim... "The rapture is imminent because the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night", really don't understand that the Day of the Lord is when Jesus returns and destroys the wicked.

If they really understood this, then they would not associate the Day of the Lord with a pre-trib rapture, unless they can explain how the antichrist could be destroyed before the tribulation???

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:2

The error here is an unfounded conclusion that the Lord is only returning one time. There is no scripture anywhere that says this.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

I guess this would mean that the word "second" could have more than one meaning?

Maybe second "really means" third.

JLB

greenguzzi · Jun 13, 2016

Biblewriter said:
Simply accepting the explicit statements of coming events is not "speculation," but belief.

I wrote "speculation" with not much thought. Substitute "belief" if you like, same difference.

Belief (faith) is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. My hope is that Christ will return. My hope is not in the timeline. I don't give a dingo's kidney about any timeline. I'm only posting here because I hope I can convince you to just give up arguing about it, and use your time more productively.

Biblewriter said:
But explicit statements of coming events are just the opposite. Again, without a single exception, every explicit statement of a coming event in the entire Bible, and which has been fulfilled, has been fulfilled literally, down to the tiniest detail. Take, for example, the first 35 verses of Daniel 11. They were fulfilled in such amazing detail that unbelievers claim that their very accuracy proves they could not have been written before the prophesied events actually took place. And well over a hundred prophecies about the first coming of our Lord Jesus were fulfilled literally, in fine detail.

Sure, I have no argument with that. But Revelation isn't prophecy, and neither is "the rapture".

Riberra · Jun 13, 2016

Biblewriter said:
Any denial that the rapture will take place is a denial of explicitly stated scripture, and is therefore rank unbelief.

But the timing of the rapture is a legitimate subject for discussion. For ALL positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of various scriptures. There is simply no scripture that explicitly states the timing of this event.

-----
The error here is an unfounded conclusion that the Lord is only returning one time. There is no scripture anywhere that says this. This conclusion is unfounded because it is based on rank ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of various words used to describe our Lord's return.

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Anyone claiming that our Lord Jesus Christ will come to gather us unto Him BEFORE there come a falling away first, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

SHOULD BE CONSIDERED SUSPECT ABOUT THE VALIDITY OF THEIR CLAIMS......2 Thessalonians 2:3

Biblewriter · Jun 13, 2016

greenguzzi said:
Sure, I have no argument with that. But Revelation isn't prophecy, and neither is "the rapture".

Actually, I do not speak of the Revelation very often. I speak mainly about the explicitly stated prophecies in the Old Testament.

Biblewriter · Jun 13, 2016

JLB777 said:
What is so sad, is most Christians who have made the claim... "The rapture is imminent because the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night", really don't understand that the Day of the Lord is when Jesus returns and destroys the wicked.

If they really understood this, then they would not associate the Day of the Lord with a pre-trib rapture, unless they can explain how the antichrist could be destroyed before the tribulation???

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:2

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

I guess this would mean that the word "second" could have more than one meaning?

Maybe second "really means" third.

JLB

You are simply assuming, without a shred of Biblical evidence that "the day of the Lord" and the rapture are the same event. The verse you quoted speaks of the rapture, not of "the day of the Lord."

Rapture timing

Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

Senior Member

Contributor

Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

Senior Member

Matthew 4:4

Matthew 4:4

Matthew 4:4

Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

Senior Member

Senior Member

Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

Senior Member

Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

Newbie

Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

Well-Known Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Similar threads