Star of David

Lulav said:

Thanks for showing that, it backs up what I said. Even though there were candles in use in the 1st century they were not used in Judaism. The Menorah in the temple as commanded used the finest olive oil. So, it couldn't have been a 'candlestick' nor a 'candelabrum', these are what you see in churches but you wouldn't see that in the temple, nor in heaven.

Yeshua is the anointed one, you anoint one with Olive oil, not candle wax.

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I know full well oil was used and not candles. I gave the interlinear with Strong's numbers so you could see the definition of the word translated "candlesticks" (lamp stand). A menorah is a "lamp stand". My point is, there were seven of them, not one; seven menorah with Yeshua in the midst. If just a "lamp" was meant, the Greek word would have been "lampas" rather than "luchnia".

I think the reason the menorah was brought up was the mention of things to do with the tabernacle that have the six pointed star.

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I agree. The problem is, the menorah does not have a six pointed star.

gadar perets said:

The problem is, the menorah does not have a six pointed star.

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If the six side branches were in formation like the branches of a burning bush then, yes, it does have six outer equidistant points on a circle because the support stem in the middle is not one of the outer points in the formation. It really is so simple a child can understand it if one is only willing. Have you never seen a diagram of the solar system? Imagine the sun as the center lamp in a giant seven lamp system with six main planets as lamps around the sun. And who made those "seven stars", (as they were known in ancient times)?
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CherubRam said:

Here is the oldest Messianic seal and it has a five point star.

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I think it doesn't.
They're 2 triangles, 2 × 3 = 6
The artist was a little sloppy here, the bottom point hardly points out the bottom.

daq said:

Show me where they were sacrificing people and "little babies" in the desert for forty years! How can either of you be taken seriously?
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You aren't understanding what I'm saying, Acts 7:42 is talking about the contradictions of the Jewish people. Here is a verse on " little babies/seed " going in to the fire of moloch " child sacrifice ".

Leviticus 18:21
21And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

gadar perets said:

I know full well oil was used and not candles. I gave the interlinear with Strong's numbers so you could see the definition of the word translated "candlesticks" (lamp stand). A menorah is a "lamp stand". My point is, there were seven of them, not one; seven menorah with Yeshua in the midst. If just a "lamp" was meant, the Greek word would have been "lampas" rather than "luchnia".

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BTW, the word "menorah" in Exodus 25:31 was translated "luchnia" in the LXX. Therefore, the word "luchnia" in Rev 1:12,13, 20 refers to the lamp stand known as the menorah, but erroneously translated "candlesticks" in English.

daq said:

If the six side branches were in formation like the branches of a burning bush then, yes, it does have six outer equidistant points on a circle because the support stem in the middle is not one of the outer points in the formation.
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Your theory of a burning bush style of menorah is false.


Your theory has two branches stemming from three different sides. All seven lamps were in a straight line.

It really is so simple a child can understand it if one is only willing. Have you never seen a diagram of the solar system? Imagine the sun as the center lamp in a giant seven lamp system with six main planets as lamps around the sun. And who made those "seven stars", (as they were known in ancient times)?

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Yes, it is so simple a child can understand it. Its a straight line, not a bush.

THIS: NOT THIS:

gadar perets said:

Your theory of a burning bush style of menorah is false.

Exodus 25:32 And there shall be six branches going out of the sides thereof: three branches of the candlestick out of the one side thereof, and three branches of the candle-stick out of the other side thereof;​

Your theory has two branches stemming from three different sides. All seven lamps were in a straight line.


Yes, it is so simple a child can understand it. Its a straight line, not a bush.

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Yes, of course, a stone with seven eyes in a straight line and a Tsemach-Branch with limbs that grow out according to your own imagination in a straight line from side to side even though it is completely contrary to the beauty of the natural creation.

Zechariah 3:8-9 (Septuagint/Hebrew mix)
8 Hear now, Yeshua the high priest, you, and your fellows that are sitting before you: for they are men of a sign, for behold, I bring forth My servant, Anatole-Tzemach-Branch.
9 For as for the stone which I have set before the face of Yeshua, on the one stone are seven eyes: behold, I am digging a trench, says YHWH Almighty, and I will search out all the iniquity of that land in one day.

In addition anatole is used for "dayspring" and "rising light", (hence east), and therefore typically denotes the rising sun; all things circular and cyclical like Torah and time. If you prefer a world where only straight lines are possible then all I can say is to each his or her own I suppose ~
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daq said:

Yes, of course, a stone with seven eyes in a straight line and a Tsemach-Branch with limbs that grow out according to your own imagination in a straight line from side to side even though it is completely contrary to the beauty of the natural creation.
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Salvia Hierosolymitana Bioss

Hieronymus said:

I think it doesn't.
They're 2 triangles, 2 × 3 = 6
The artist was a little sloppy here, the bottom point hardly points out the bottom.

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If the person intended for it to be a six point star, then they would have corrected it. There is no bottom point at all.

gadar perets said:

Salvia Hierosolymitana Bioss

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Lol, where is the gullah with seven golden pipes coming out of the globe providing oil to the seven lamps upon it as in the vision of Zechariah 4? Or do you imagine that bowls and globes only come in straight lines also? That's the problem: you are looking only at what is physical while this thread was speaking of symbolism and symbolic things from the get-go. In fact I am speaking more or less of symbolic things concerning Yeshua while you are speaking about a literal seven lamp menorah and how it should be properly constructed according to what you can see with your physical eyes. I do not think I have ever met anyone so dead set on the idea that if he cannot see it with his eyes of the flesh he will not believe it.
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(In regards to the lamp sticks being on the opposite sides, ONLY.)I looked all through the scriptures, and found no indication that the arrangement of the lamp sticks has any parabolic meaning. There is meaning in the sticks being LEFT and RIGHT of the center stick. There is also meaning in the almond blossoms. Only six sticks will come to be in this world, and it will be said that the seventh is in heaven. Of the seven, one lamp stick is removed.

CherubRam said:

If the person intended for it to be a six point star, then they would have corrected it. There is no bottom point at all.

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Not that easy to correct on a clay vase.
You can see quite clearly it's 2 triangles and 2 × 3 = 6.

daq said:

Lol, where is the gullah with seven golden pipes coming out of the globe providing oil to the seven lamps upon it as in the vision of Zechariah 4? Or do you imagine that bowls and globes only come in straight lines also? That's the problem: you are looking only at what is physical while this thread was speaking of symbolism and symbolic things from the get-go. In fact I am speaking more or less of symbolic things concerning Yeshua while you are speaking about a literal seven lamp menorah and how it should be properly constructed according to what you can see with your physical eyes. I do not think I have ever met anyone so dead set on the idea that if he cannot see it with his eyes of the flesh he will not believe it.
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From the get-go, you posted a physical image of a bush Menorah. I refuted it with Scripture. I later posted the Salvia Hierosolymitana Bioss image to refute your insinuation that there is nothing in nature that grows in a straight line, but only in my imagination. You made a statement referring to the physical creation and I refuted it.

As for symbolism, I accept it and understand it when it rightly addresses a particular issue. You bringing up the menorahs in Revelation 1 and the stone with eyes in Zechariah 3 have nothing to do with the literal, physical "star of David". And there is nothing physical or symbolic in Scripture to prove the validity of that star.

CodyFaith said:

Now that I'm a Christian I struggle with it, because unconditional love is only promised to Christians, not to every Jewish person, so why would it be adopted only for a symbol for Jews, and, most importantly, where is Jesus in those promises? I'll stick with the cross.

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You do realize that unconditional love is first and foremost promised to Messianic Jews, NOT to every Gentile person. Your response borders on supersessionism (RT).

The Star of David was adopted as a symbol for Jews for the new "Nation" of Israel after almost 2000 years. The Age of the Gentiles is coming to a close; while at the same time the number of Messianic Jews in Israel increases in numbers. America is wanning as a "Christian" Nation. Perhaps that explains why more and more so-called "Christians" are exploring their interest in the "Hebraic Roots of Christianity" and "Messianic Judaism."

Matthew 15:23-28 KJV
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and besought Him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped Him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But He answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Romans 1:16-17 ~ Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.
17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in His sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust — as theTanakh puts it, “But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust.” (Habakkuk 2:4; Proverbs 3:5-6)

AbbaLove said:

You do realize that unconditional love is first and foremost promised to Messianic Jews, NOT to every Gentile person. Your response borders on supersessionis (RT). Whether

The Star of David was adopted as a symbol for Jews for the new "Nation" of Israel after almost 2000 years. The Age of the Gentiles is coming to a close at the same time the Jewish Nation of Israel increases in numbers. America is wanning as a "Christian" Nation. Perhaps that explains why more and more so-called "Christians" are exploring their interest in the "Hebraic Roots of Christianity" and "Messianic Judaism."

Matthew 15:23-28 KJV
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and besought Him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped Him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Romans 1:16-17 ~ Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.
17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in His sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust — as theTanakh puts it, “But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust.” (Habakkuk 2:4; Proverbs 3:5-6)

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K, well first of all, I strongly believe myself to be one of the lost (but now found) sheep of the house of Israel. I already said I come from a background that was going to convert to Judaism, I still don't eat pork or shellfish or unclean animals (I can't eat a ham sandwich. Even saying ham sandwich sickens my stomach). I revere the Sabbath and try to enjoy it as much as possible, and I feel personally related to many Jews on an intense level, and yes my heart sinks that many of them don't know Jesus. So if I at any time presented anything other than complete love for Israel, I repent and regret it.

What I was getting at, brother, is that I see Jews who are not Messianic using it as a symbol, whereas many Jews do not contain the promise of unconditional love, only a selection of them. So it only makes me wary, is I suppose what I was saying. Cautious.

I would love for it to be a true image that I can use in worship, because my heart gravitates towards it, I have a gold Star of David pendent that I used to wear off and on, and I still desire to wear it.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps I should become Messianic and adopt their symbols and customs, as I already do so anyway pretty much. I'm very new in Christ.

gadar perets said:

From the get-go, you posted a physical image of a bush Menorah. I refuted it with Scripture. I later posted the Salvia Hierosolymitana Bioss image to refute your insinuation that there is nothing in nature that grows in a straight line, but only in my imagination. You made a statement referring to the physical creation and I refuted it.

As for symbolism, I accept it and understand it when it rightly addresses a particular issue. You bringing up the menorahs in Revelation 1 and the stone with eyes in Zechariah 3 have nothing to do with the literal, physical "star of David". And there is nothing physical or symbolic in Scripture to prove the validity of that star.

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Here is the reality: you say I'm all over the place because it was me who was using different scripture passages to try and show different places that use similar symbolism. You then make adamant proclamations, like you previously did above without a shred of evidence, simply decreeing that you are right and I am wrong simply because you say so and have found a green and blue picture of what may or may not be a flat bush. All the while you have actually argued everything from a position of denial, without any real evidence for anything you have either denied or implied, not even when you implied that you believe the Menorah is patterned after one that is "in heaven", even after being questioned about it, even after the scripture has been quoted to you proving that Moshe was shown the pattern in the mount and commanded to make the Menorah according to the pattern which he had been shown in the mount. At the same time you are arguing in favor of those who in this same thread have accused Jews of sacrificing people and "little babies" to Moloch in the desert for forty years, and who have also accused king Solomon of having fallen into satanism and the occult, (ignoring the fact that it is called the Magen David so as to make a false association with the "evil Solomon" who built the Temple of Elohim). And what about the scribes who copied the New Testament writings and took it upon themselves to begin writing the name of David in the Nomina Sacra form with the double delta? Are they now satanists, occultists, and devil worshipers too?

Δ̅Α̅Δ . . . Eeeeeek! Run for your lives ye saints and holy ones; the devil has arisen from his fiery lair! Aaaaaak! It's ye olde double delta sign of the wicked one! It burns! it burns!
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@CodyFaith But why would you want to put yourself under old laws?

visionary said:

In God's time they are not that old and they have the stability of God himself.

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I mean old in the sense that they've had their time.
And i don't mean the 10 Commandments.
it was more about pork and ham.
Not my favourite meat either, but under the New Covenant is it no longer unclean.

Hieronymus said:

@CodyFaith But why would you want to put yourself under old laws?

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Hmm... perhaps i exaggerated..