Star of David

daq

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I don't think it has anything to do with sacrifices, everything is laid out in descriptive detail on what they used for different sacrifices, this star is never mentioned. It is mentioned, all through pagan practices. A man that his own heart followed after God I don't believe would be caught dead with this symbol. Yes, Solomon did have his heart turned by women. The practice of it could have started with him and carried on after the 12 tribes were split. This symbol has no good use, look up what has been provided. It all adds up. Seal of Solomon, keys of Solomon, and so fourth, it's used for magik. This symbol is used by secret societies like the " rosey cross " and other established societies that claim to hold " enlightenment ".

If you think it has something to do with animal sacrifice, or a knife I can't agree. There is no evidence of that. This symbol is used in occult practices and it has nothing to do with David. All we have to do to figure that is expose the darkness as scripture calls to do, then we would be made aware of exactly what this symbol is for.

Well, I suppose that is what happens when you ignore the context and cut out scripture one liners to formulate your opinions and doctrines:

Acts 7:42-43
42 But God turned, and gave them up to serve the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, Did ye offer unto me slain beasts and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel?
43 And ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of the god Rhompha, the figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.


Now therefore, because of the quote, the context also includes Amos 5:25-27 and its surrounding context. The rhompha was probably forged steel, (formed with a τυπος?). ^_^
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gadar perets

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Problem is we are specifically speaking about symbolism by virtue of the topic of the thread which is the symbol known as the Magen David. But you conveniently deny every piece or form of symbolism presented because you can stand back and essentially say to yourself, Well, it does not specifically state anywhere in the scripture that "David took two triangles and combined them so it is now a holy symbol."
I said no such thing. In post #50, I was requesting historical proof such as an army shield, document, etc., not Scriptural proof.

Your argument holds no water because nobody claims what you say does not exist to begin with. However you yourself have presented no evidence whatsoever for your own opposition;
I never said I had evidence that it was not created by David. Since neither one of us has any historical evidence, but we do have evidence of pagans using that symbol, and since we do have Scriptural mention of a pagan that the Israelites were worshiping, then common sense says, "Stay clear of that symbol."

not even evidence for your own admitted belief that the Menorah is patterned after an object that resides "in heaven".
I didn't know such evidence was needed. See Exodus 25:31-40, especially verse 40.

Your objections are even less warranted when the only real verse that can be used for the Magen David as being a occult symbol, (Acts 7:43), has been shown to be misunderstood by those who use it for such false accusations and insinuations.
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Your theory that the star was really a knife glittering does not dispel any misunderstandings. It just confuses the issue more.
 
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HeartThaw

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Well, I suppose that is what happens when you ignore the context and cut out scripture one liners to formulate your opinions and doctrines:

Acts 7:42-43
42 But God turned, and gave them up to serve the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, Did ye offer unto me slain beasts and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel?
43 And ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of the god Rhompha, the figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.


Now therefore, because of the quote, the context also includes Amos 5:25-27 and its surrounding context. The rhompha was probably forged steel, (formed with a τυπος?). ^_^
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What does this have to do with a knife? Also they ( worshippers of moloch )were sacrificing people ... Little babies, not animals, the scripture is showing their ( the Jews ) contradictions, that's all. Idk what else you are getting out of that.
 
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gadar perets

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Well, I suppose that is what happens when you ignore the context and cut out scripture one liners to formulate your opinions and doctrines:

Acts 7:42-43
42 But God turned, and gave them up to serve the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, Did ye offer unto me slain beasts and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel?
43 And ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of the god Rhompha, the figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.


Now therefore, because of the quote, the context also includes Amos 5:25-27 and its surrounding context. The rhompha was probably forged steel, (formed with a τυπος?). ^_^
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What is your lexical basis for saying the "star" of Acts 7:43 or Amos 5:26 was a knife of forged steel? As far as I can tell, the word always literally mean "star", but sometimes figuratively.
 
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CherubRam

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I have a question. Do Jews display their six point flag at their places of worship?

My translation.

Amos 5:26.

You have made an image for yourselves. You have raised up the star of your god that you have made for the tabernacle of your king.
I still have a question. Do Jews display their six point flag at their places of worship?
 
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daq

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What does this have to do with a knife? Also they ( worshippers of moloch )were sacrificing people ... Little babies, not animals, the scripture is showing their ( the Jews ) contradictions, that's all. Idk what else you are getting out of that.

What is your lexical basis for saying the "star" of Acts 7:43 or Amos 5:26 was a knife of forged steel? As far as I can tell, the word always literally mean "star", but sometimes figuratively.

Show me where they were sacrificing people and "little babies" in the desert for forty years! How can either of you be taken seriously?
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gadar perets

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Show me where they were sacrificing people and "little babies" in the desert for forty years! How can either of you be taken seriously?
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Why did you combine my post with HeartThaw's and totally dismiss it? Does such lexical evidence or even textual evidence exist?
 
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gadar perets

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I still have a question. Do Jews display their six point flag at their places of worship?
Some synagogues do, but it can also be found in other places as well like on outdoor signs, on Torah coverings, on Scriptures, on prayer books, as part of the architecture, etc.
 
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daq

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Why did you combine my post with HeartThaw's and totally dismiss it? Does such lexical evidence or even textual evidence exist?

What is your lexical basis for saying the "star" of Acts 7:43 or Amos 5:26 was a knife of forged steel? As far as I can tell, the word always literally mean "star", but sometimes figuratively.

What I said was not star but τυπος which is used in the passage.
Here it is again:

Acts 7:43 W/H
43 και ανελαβετε την σκηνην του μολοχ και το αστρον του θεου ρομφα τους τυπους ους εποιησατε προσκυνειν αυτοις και μετοικιω υμας επεκεινα βαβυλωνος


Strong's Concordance
tupos: a figure, model, type
Original Word: τύπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: tupos
Phonetic Spelling: (too'-pos)
Short Definition: a figure, model, type
Definition: (originally: the mark of a blow, then a stamp struck by a die), (a) a figure; a copy, image, (b) a pattern, model, (c) a type, prefiguring something or somebody.

HELPS Word-studies
5179 týpos (from 5180 /týptō, "strike repeatedly") – properly, a model forged by repetition; (figuratively) the correct paradigm, based on reliable precedent for others to then follow, (i.e. the right example, a proper pattern).
[In the papyri, 5179 (týpos) means "pattern" (P Ryl II. 75.8). 5179 (týpos) is also used of a judicial proceeding, "Let an inquiry be made into his means; only there is a principle according to which I have often judged" (MM, 645).]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5179: τύπος
τύπος, τυπου, ὁ (τύπτω), from (Aeschylus and) Herodotus down;
1. the mark of a stroke or blow; print: τῶν ἥλων, John 20:25a, 25b (where L T Tr marginal reading τόπον) (Athen. 13, p. 585 c. τούς τύπους τῶν πληγῶν ἰδοῦσα).
2. a figure formed by a blow or impression; hence, universally, a figure, image: of the images of the gods, Acts 7:43 (Amos 5:26; Josephus, Antiquities 1, 19, 11; 15, 9, 5). (Cf. κύριοι τύπος θεοῦ, the Epistle of Barnabas 19, 7 [ET]; 'Teaching' 4, 11 [ET].
http://biblehub.com/greek/5179.htm

In the sense of Acts 7:43 τυπος may clearly be used to denote a die, cast, or mold, used in the formation of blades for use in the sacrificial slaughtering of animals. The shimmer and shine of the blade likewise reflects an image just the same as a mirror. Additionally blades are hammered out, (τυπος), and sharpened after having been forged in a die, cast, or mold, (also τυπος). In other words if you or they understood the sacrifices to be meant in physical terms only then you or they did not and do not understand what the Torah is saying. In your case neither would you understand what the Prophets and the Psalms are saying about what is considered true sacrifice.
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anna ~ grace

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Yeah... I like the Cross and I like the Menorah, but never quite felt comfortable with the Star of David as I saw no Scriptural reference to it, and had no idea what, in fact, it represented. And I'm ethnically part Sephardic, and I *still* feel kind of uncomfortable with the Star of David. At least when used alone. The Nasrani Sleeba symbol is pretty neat. Kind of Menorah-Cross hybrid.
When I was going through a Jewish phase, I always thought it meant God's unconditional love, the upwards triangle representing God's love, the downwards representing yourself. As well I've heard it representing te soul connection between man and God, and other things.

Now that I'm a Christian I struggle with it, because unconditional love is only promised to Christians, not to every Jewish person, so why would it be adopted only for a symbol for Jews, and, most importantly, where is Jesus in those promises?

I'll stick with the cross.
 
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CherubRam

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Some synagogues do, but it can also be found in other places as well like on outdoor signs, on Torah coverings, on Scriptures, on prayer books, as part of the architecture, etc.
OK. Thanks.
 
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gadar perets

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What I said was not star but τυπος which is used in the passage.
Here it is again:

Acts 7:43 W/H
43 και ανελαβετε την σκηνην του μολοχ και το αστρον του θεου ρομφα τους τυπους ους εποιησατε προσκυνειν αυτοις και μετοικιω υμας επεκεινα βαβυλωνος


Strong's Concordance
tupos: a figure, model, type
Original Word: τύπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: tupos
Phonetic Spelling: (too'-pos)
Short Definition: a figure, model, type
Definition: (originally: the mark of a blow, then a stamp struck by a die), (a) a figure; a copy, image, (b) a pattern, model, (c) a type, prefiguring something or somebody.

HELPS Word-studies
5179 týpos (from 5180 /týptō, "strike repeatedly") – properly, a model forged by repetition; (figuratively) the correct paradigm, based on reliable precedent for others to then follow, (i.e. the right example, a proper pattern).
[In the papyri, 5179 (týpos) means "pattern" (P Ryl II. 75.8). 5179 (týpos) is also used of a judicial proceeding, "Let an inquiry be made into his means; only there is a principle according to which I have often judged" (MM, 645).]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5179: τύπος
τύπος, τυπου, ὁ (τύπτω), from (Aeschylus and) Herodotus down;
1. the mark of a stroke or blow; print: τῶν ἥλων, John 20:25a, 25b (where L T Tr marginal reading τόπον) (Athen. 13, p. 585 c. τούς τύπους τῶν πληγῶν ἰδοῦσα).
2. a figure formed by a blow or impression; hence, universally, a figure, image: of the images of the gods, Acts 7:43 (Amos 5:26; Josephus, Antiquities 1, 19, 11; 15, 9, 5). (Cf. κύριοι τύπος θεοῦ, the Epistle of Barnabas 19, 7 [ET]; 'Teaching' 4, 11 [ET].
http://biblehub.com/greek/5179.htm

In the sense of Acts 7:43 τυπος may clearly be used to denote a die, cast, or mold, used in the formation of blades for use in the sacrificial slaughtering of animals. The shimmer and shine of the blade likewise reflects an image just the same as a mirror. Additionally blades are hammered out, (τυπος), and sharpened after having been forged in a die, cast, or mold, (also τυπος). In other words if you or they understood the sacrifices to be meant in physical terms only then you or they did not and do not understand what the Torah is saying. In your case neither would you understand what the Prophets and the Psalms are saying about what is considered true sacrifice.
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OK. So here is how I am understanding you so far:

The "star" is actually the glittering/shining of the knife blade. The Rhompha was a knife. The knife was hammered out from a mold. If we put that all together, then Acts 7:43 really reads, "And ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the shining of the god knife, the mold which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon."

For some strange reason, this does not read well to me. Can you please put it in correct English so we can know the true translation? While you're at it, please explain how the word "god" fits in. Is the "god" a knife that they were worshiping?
 
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Lulav

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I still have a question. Do Jews display their six point flag at their places of worship?
Actually the Service I am watching right now is displaying 50 five pointed stars (the American Flag) I see no Israeli flag there. I'm sure some do, in support of Israel.

It is not the 'Jews flag' it is the nation of Israel's flag. Please be respectful when addressing these kinds of things in the Messianic Judaism forum. :)
 
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daq

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OK. So here is how I am understanding you so far:

The "star" is actually the glittering/shining of the knife blade. The Rhompha was a knife. The knife was hammered out from a mold. If we put that all together, then Acts 7:43 really reads, "And ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the shining of the god knife, the mold which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon."

For some strange reason, this does not read well to me. Can you please put it in correct English so we can know the true translation? While you're at it, please explain how the word "god" fits in. Is the "god" a knife that they were worshiping?

If you are simply asking for my opinion on it here it is:

Amos 5:21-27 (From the LXX-Septuagint)
21 I despise, I reject your feasts, and I will not smell your meat-offerings in your solemn assemblies.
22 Wherefore if you should bring Me your whole-burnt-sacrifices and meat-offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I have respect to your grand peace offerings.
23 Remove from Me the sound of your songs; for I will not hear the music of your instruments.
24 But [rather] let judgment roll down as water, and righteousness as an impassable torrent.

25 Did you offer unto Me victims and sacrifices, O house of Israel, forty years in the desert? [the answer is actually, No, not in the purely physical way it had later come to be understood, and even later most certainly by the purely carnal minded ruling Tzaddukim-Sadducees]
26 You even took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Rhompha, [according to the Acts 7:43 WH reading] the τυπους types-images-idols-utensils of those [things] which you made for yourselves [hammered sharpened blades, for literal physical animal sacrifices, by way of a misunderstanding of the Spirit of Torah].
27 And I will carry you away beyond Damascus, [Damasek-Qumran] says YHWH Elohim, Almighty is His name.

You will need to delve deeper into Essene theology to understand why Stephen, (and Luke), change Damascus to Babylon in the quotation of the above passage, (but it is appropriate according to Jude).
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Lulav

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Rev 1:12 AndG2532 I turnedG1994 to seeG991 theG3588 voiceG5456 thatG3748 spakeG2980 withG3326 me.G1700 AndG2532 being turned,G1994 I sawG1492 sevenG2033 goldenG5552 candlesticks;G3087
Rev 1:13 AndG2532 inG1722 the midstG3319 of theG3588 sevenG2033 candlesticksG3087 one like untoG3664 the SonG5207 of man,G444 clothed withG1746 a garment down to the foot,G4158 andG2532 girt aboutG4024 (G4314) theG3588 papsG3149 with a goldenG5552 girdle.G2223​

Thayer's Definition:
1) a (candlestick) lamp stand, candelabrum

Strong's definition:

a lamp stand (literally or figuratively): - candlestick.

There were seven menorah representing the seven "churches". These are not to be confused with the seven lamps of fire (Rev 4:5) representing the seven spirits of Elohim.

Even if you choose to believe there is one menorah, there is still no connection to the "star of David". So I have no idea why these lamps/lampstands are even being discussed.


Thanks for showing that, it backs up what I said. Even though there were candles in use in the 1st century they were not used in Judaism. The Menorah in the temple as commanded used the finest olive oil. So, it couldn't have been a 'candlestick' nor a 'candelabrum', these are what you see in churches but you wouldn't see that in the temple, nor in heaven.

Yeshua is the anointed one, you anoint one with Olive oil, not candle wax.

I think the reason the menorah was brought up was the mention of things to do with the tabernacle that have the six pointed star. The mention of the pomegranates was one thing, I showed a photo of a lily that grows in Israel. Sadly, used to celebrate 'easter' this lily could be an actual shape used on the Menorah. In the Septuigint that is how the description is translated.

It was made with its knops, and lilies, and pomegranates..............................

Could this in fact be part of an understanding of this scripture? Jeremiah 31? perhaps but I'll start another thread so as not to derail this one.
 
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daq

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Thanks for showing that, it backs up what I said. Even though there were candles in use in the 1st century they were not used in Judaism. The Menorah in the temple as commanded used the finest olive oil. So, it couldn't have been a 'candlestick' nor a 'candelabrum', these are what you see in churches but you wouldn't see that in the temple, nor in heaven.

Yeshua is the anointed one, you anoint one with Olive oil, not candle wax.

I think the reason the menorah was brought up was the mention of things to do with the tabernacle that have the six pointed star. The mention of the pomegranates was one thing, I showed a photo of a lily that grows in Israel. Sadly, used to celebrate 'easter' this lily could be an actual shape used on the Menorah. In the Septuigint that is how the description is translated.

It was made with its knops, and lilies, and pomegranates..............................

Could this in fact be part of an understanding of this scripture? Jeremiah 31? perhaps but I'll start another thread so as not to derail this one.

Actually there are seven lamps atop the Menorah which are filled separately. However this understanding does not come through in most English translations which use "candlestick" in places like what is described in Revelation of Messiah Yeshua. They are surely not candlesticks but they are seven lamps. This is also made somewhat evident in the vision of Zechariah 4, (specifically Zechariah 4:2, "with its seven lamps thereon" [niyr/nirot - lamps]).


building-the-menorah-21-720.jpg

https://www.templeinstitute.org/history-holy-temple-menorah-21.htm


building-the-menorah-15-720.jpg

https://www.templeinstitute.org/history-holy-temple-menorah-15.htm


The golden oil lamps atop the branches may have been very similar to the many terra cotta oil lamps that have been discovered, (all over the middle east). This one below appears to be legitimate seeing how it sold at auction for over 10K.


28-24g.jpg

http://www.archaeological-center.com/en/auctions/28-117
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CherubRam

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Actually the Service I am watching right now is displaying 50 five pointed stars (the American Flag) I see no Israeli flag there. I'm sure some do, in support of Israel.

It is not the 'Jews flag' it is the nation of Israel's flag. Please be respectful when addressing these kinds of things in the Messianic Judaism forum. :)
Is it better to say "Israeli" than use the "Jew" word?
 
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