"a man is justified by works, and not by faith only" (in James 2:24)

What does James mean, by saying "a man is justified by works", in James 2:24?

  • 1. There are set outward works which someone must do in order to become a child of God.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2. We must copy-cat what others are doing, in a certain group, or else we are not saved.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3. In order to stay saved, we must do things which a group prescribes in detail.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 4. While we do works in God's love, this love changes us to be how Jesus is.

    Votes: 11 28.2%
  • 5. Other explanation.

    Votes: 29 74.4%

  • Total voters
    39

hopesprings

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"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)

What does James mean?

[...]what does it mean, that we are "justified" by such works?

Well, justification (biblically speaking) is the "declaring of a person to be just or righteous" (http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/justification/).
James 2:24 then means that an individual is declared just or righteous by works, and not just by faith: one (faith) is not more important than the other (works)! Earlier in the chapter James addresses an ongoing debate between believers over faith vs. works and notes,
“But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”--‭‭James‬ ‭2:18-19‬ ‭NIV‬‬
In other words, anyone can have faith in God--even demons! Works are the outward "proof" of one's faith: Jesus says in John 14:23a that "[...]anyone who loves me will obey my teaching."

Our works declare (confirm, attest to) us "righteous and just", are an extension of our faith in God, and are committed out of our love for Him.
 
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Arsenios

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Christ represents the attitude that a man should have in a marriage and that he gives everything he has to his wife and the marriage which is exactly what Jesus did. That does not mean that the church is his bride. You've conflagrated two different issues.
The body of Christ is ruled by Christ himself. He does not marry his own body.

They become one flesh - The marriage with the harlot failed for she had no baptism...

Arsenios
 
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StanJ

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They become one flesh - The marriage with the harlot failed for she had no baptism...
Arsenios
Sorry, you'll have to expand on this thought and how it relates to what I said.
 
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Goodbook

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OP Just read the whole passage it tells you in a few sentences above.

I dont think its hard to understand what James is saying. he even gives illustrations with the hungry and naked man and not giving him any food or clothing but just leaving him there and saying go away and be warm and fed. Lol
 
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Gabriel Anton

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@Gracia Singh Hi, Gracia :) Welcome to our discussion :) I would say that Eastern Orthodox teaching and Roman Catholic teaching can be the same and there are differences. Also, I'm betting each individual member of either group can have more or less unique ideas and ways of explaining things. Because, no matter how much we try to conform to a group's teachings, and be the same, each of us is unique; and this can effect how we are able to understand things. Also, what is very important is our attitude behind whatever we decide is true.

One can be very into looking down on others who have different ideas, while others are maybe too open to thinking anything they believe could be wrong . . . maybe double-guessing or over-thinking.

I think what is important is to get the love meaning of each scripture. See how anything of God's word has application to how He wants us to be in our character; seek how our Father desires for each of us to be personal and intimate with Him (1 Corinthians 6:17, Romans 5:5) while we are submitting to how He guides us in His peace (Colossians 3:15); and discover how Jesus wants us to relate in love with every person (Matthew 5:46), including to be a good example (1 Peter 5:3) for those who do not know how to love.

Always have hope for any person, like how Jesus on the cross had hope for any evil person, at all. And Jesus never gave up on any of His disciples. So, this needs to be feeding how we understand God's word and how we do our works.

Paul says we need "faith working through love," in Galatians 5:6. So, I consider this means that we need works of love.

I think that Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic both believe in "sacraments" which are special works which can minister God's grace to us so we will be saved. These would include baptism and communion.

Others believe that works do not minister grace, but they understand that works are evidence that we have faith but they do not minister grace of salvation.

But I personally find that any work we do in God's love is ministering God's grace. I mean grace which is the action and effect of God in His power of love in us > Philippians 2:13 > God in us works in our nature and character while He has us doing works of His love and His persona leading in us > Isaiah 58:11. So, this is essential . . . whatsoever God has us doing, because He is changing us to become more like Jesus (1 John 4:17, Galatians 4:19) while He is in us working us to do His works. So, works which James means are not limited to certain specially established "sacraments", but also James does not mean actions which are only a gesture to God and others and ourselves.

If we consider works to be only evidence, can't this get us into a pride thing? I might be doing things in order to prove to my own self that I am living for God. I could be leaning to my own understanding of what He wants, being my own dictator! making myself my judge!!

Peter is clear that each of us children of God can minister God's grace to each other > 1 Peter 4:9-10. So, I would think there have to be works which are done in order to minister God's grace. These would be what God in us has us doing, and I believe that whatever God does is essential, however it is essential > how His love effects our nature is essential > 1 John 4:17. And, again, by grace I mean God in us acting to effect our character while having us do the works. Plus, the power of His love in and through our obedient works is spreading to also effect others. We are cups running over with whatsoever is really in our cups, to help to make others the same way!

So, how we are becoming is very important, along with what we are doing. Because how we are spiritually can be spreading to make others the same way . . . deeper than the show of sacraments or our gestures of love.

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain." (Philippians 2:14-16)

I like this insightful post. A lot of thought went into its construction. I read it twice.
 
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com7fy8

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I'm sorry but when you stand before Jesus on your judgement day, you will be judged by your righteousness, not Christ's.

I suggest you study Romans 3
Hebrews 12:4-11 says that our Heavenly Father's correction "yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." This is not our own righteousness, but God's. Also, this scripture says God's correction has us become "partakers of His holiness". Being a partaker means sharing in something. So, God's real correction has us sharing with Him in His righteousness, I understand.

And, by the way, this is "fruit". Fruit does take time to grow and mature. So, this is not only what we in our own ego's free will can choose and then not choose. But we grow in Jesus and this righteousness which is in Jesus in us > Galatians 4:19, 2 Corinthians 3:17-18.

And Titus 3:5 does say, "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,"

Now, this is talking about how we got saved, but through this I see that this can show how our own works of righteousness will not be what Jesus is looking for, on the day of judgment.

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:17)

And 1 Corinthians 13 shows us what God means by love.

And our own righteousness, then, is not in God's love and the works thereof. So we need our Father's correction which makes us "partakers of His holiness" > Hebrews 12:4-11. This holiness is in God's love in us. So, as we become perfected in His love, this makes us ready for judgment >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, our own righteousness would be self-righteous, not having the nature and quality of God's love. God's love has "the "incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God" >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

So, I consider, the works which Jesus wants are gentle and quiet in His love . . . not how ones do things to lord themselves over others (1 Peter 5:3), and use people, and waste themselves in workaholic ministering (Matthew 11:28-30). But in Jesus Christ's love with His nature we have "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30).

So, I can see there are plenty of people who are trying to use quick-fix prayers and baptisms and setting up their own standards of activities and ideas, instead of first seeking our Father for His correction having His love's perfection. God's righteousness, which is of Jesus in us, is in His love. And we have Jesus being formed in us as our new inner Person, sharing all this with us >

"My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you," (Galatians 4:19)

Jesus in us shares His own with us, of His own nature of love, and how He personally relates with our Father and submits to however our Father guides Him, and how Jesus loves any and all people, and how He loves us who are His Bride (Ephesians 4:31 - Ephesians 5:2). All this grows in us, as we grow in Christ. And our works come from how we are growing in Jesus and His creativity . . . not copy-catting. So, He is expecting us to have His character of His love's righteousness and the works of this love which is the only right kind of love. Righteousness, then, I consider, has to do with how only God's love is right. And God "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5) is now sharing this love with each of us, Paul says.

Therefore, if we have trusted in the real Jesus (Ephesians 1:12, 2 Corinthians 11:1-4), we now are already experiencing this growing in us and our lives. And Isaiah 58:11 says God will guide us "continually". So, we do the works which God has us doing, in order to receive His correction and do the works which are of His love's righteousness.
 
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com7fy8

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Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and disciple all the nations,
Baptizing them
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:
Jesus doesn't specify physical water, here. And elsewhere Jesus does talk about "baptism" which appears to not include water > Luke 12:50. But yes the disciples baptized with water, in the book of Acts.

Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as "rivers of living water", in John 7:37-39. The Holy Spirit has baptized us into Jesus Christ's death > Romans 6:3 > and now the Holy Spirit is flowing through us to form into Jesus as our new inner Person > Galatians 4:19. It is like how the liquid of a mother's blood can cross her unborn baby's placenta and flow through her baby to form into baby heart, brain, liver, skin, eyes . . . all from the mother's blood liquid. God uses liquid mother to make a wiggling squiggling giggling baby! So, I consider this is the perfection we need to move on to, how God forms His own Son Jesus in each of us as our new inner Person.

And, of course, this is what God does! Therefore, we need the works which are because of all which God is doing in us > Philippians 2:13 . . . not our own copy-catting and our own free will's picking and choosing what we can understand and make up.
 
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Erose

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Hebrews 12:4-11 says that our Heavenly Father's correction "yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." This is not our own righteousness, but God's. Also, this scripture says God's correction has us become "partakers of His holiness". Being a partaker means sharing in something. So, God's real correction has us sharing with Him in His righteousness, I understand.

And, by the way, this is "fruit". Fruit does take time to grow and mature. So, this is not only what we in our own ego's free will can choose and then not choose. But we grow in Jesus and this righteousness which is in Jesus in us > Galatians 4:19, 2 Corinthians 3:17-18.

And Titus 3:5 does say, "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,"

Now, this is talking about how we got saved, but through this I see that this can show how our own works of righteousness will not be what Jesus is looking for, on the day of judgment.

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:17)

And 1 Corinthians 13 shows us what God means by love.

And our own righteousness, then, is not in God's love and the works thereof. So we need our Father's correction which makes us "partakers of His holiness" > Hebrews 12:4-11. This holiness is in God's love in us. So, as we become perfected in His love, this makes us ready for judgment >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, our own righteousness would be self-righteous, not having the nature and quality of God's love. God's love has "the "incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God" >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

So, I consider, the works which Jesus wants are gentle and quiet in His love . . . not how ones do things to lord themselves over others (1 Peter 5:3), and use people, and waste themselves in workaholic ministering (Matthew 11:28-30). But in Jesus Christ's love with His nature we have "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30).

So, I can see there are plenty of people who are trying to use quick-fix prayers and baptisms and setting up their own standards of activities and ideas, instead of first seeking our Father for His correction having His love's perfection. God's righteousness, which is of Jesus in us, is in His love. And we have Jesus being formed in us as our new inner Person, sharing all this with us >

"My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you," (Galatians 4:19)

Jesus in us shares His own with us, of His own nature of love, and how He personally relates with our Father and submits to however our Father guides Him, and how Jesus loves any and all people, and how He loves us who are His Bride (Ephesians 4:31 - Ephesians 5:2). All this grows in us, as we grow in Christ. And our works come from how we are growing in Jesus and His creativity . . . not copy-catting. So, He is expecting us to have His character of His love's righteousness and the works of this love which is the only right kind of love. Righteousness, then, I consider, has to do with how only God's love is right. And God "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5) is now sharing this love with each of us, Paul says.

Therefore, if we have trusted in the real Jesus (Ephesians 1:12, 2 Corinthians 11:1-4), we now are already experiencing this growing in us and our lives. And Isaiah 58:11 says God will guide us "continually". So, we do the works which God has us doing, in order to receive His correction and do the works which are of His love's righteousness.
Man you are soooo close to being right on here. So close. I ask you one single question, which will provide the answer to this debate. By what shall we be judged? Answer that question via Scripture.
 
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Arsenios

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Sorry, you'll have to expand on this thought and how it relates to what I said.

The one flesh of the man and woman in marriage is derived from the one flesh of Christ and those in the BODY of Christ who are FLESH... Christ becomes one flesh with us who are baptized INTO Him... Paul almost had to remind himself that he was speaking of a man and a woman in a marriage, because he headed off into the real Marriage of the Lamb, from which is derived the teachings of human marriages...

Insofar as we succeed in denial of self and putting on Christ, to that extent we ARE one flesh with Christ...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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Jesus doesn't specify physical water, here.

He does specify WHO is to Baptize...

SO...

Did Jesus succeed in this instruction to His Apostles?
Or did Jesus fail?

And if He succeeded, did His Apostles all Baptize in water or not?

And in water, were they all and everywhere disobeying Him?

The Doctrine of Baptisms is ALL in water...

You simply cannot DIP someone into Spirit...
Baptise means Dip-ize...
Dipping is into a liquid...
It means immersion...
Total immersion...
Which is what it takes to become mature in Christ...
The entry teaches the means...

Arsenios
 
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Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as "rivers of living water", in John 7:37-39.
The Holy Spirit has baptized us into Jesus Christ's death > Romans 6:3 >
and now the Holy Spirit is flowing through us to form into Jesus as our new inner Person > Galatians 4:19.

Christ is the Baptizer, not the Holy Spirit...

John 1:33
And I knew Him not:
but He that sent me to baptize with water,
the Same said unto me,
"Upon Whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending,
and remaining on Him,
the Same is He baptizing in the Holy Spirit."


Christ Who was Baptized IS the Baptizer...
Straight from God to John the Forerunner...

Arsenios
 
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StanJ

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The one flesh of the man and woman in marriage is derived from the one flesh of Christ and those in the BODY of Christ who are FLESH... Christ becomes one flesh with us who are baptized INTO Him... Paul almost had to remind himself that he was speaking of a man and a woman in a marriage, because he headed off into the real Marriage of the Lamb, from which is derived the teachings of human marriages...
Insofar as we succeed in denial of self and putting on Christ, to that extent we ARE one flesh with Christ...
Arsenios
Again I'm not really understanding where you're going here because it's way too mystical. In the body of Christ is indeed a metaphysical body represented buy actual physical beings. 1 Cor 12 explains the Body of Christ and Paul was not around when John wrote Revelation, and you still haven't explained what you mean by The Real Marriage of the Lamb?
Collectively we are all part of the body of Christ but that body is Paul clearly explains his individual parts which have individual uses. The body of Christ is not a Melting Pot where we all become homogeneous.
 
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Born Again2004

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"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)

What does James mean?

I consider and offer the examples of works, which he gives in the same chapter.

But what does it mean, that we are "justified" by such works?
Jesus said if we were in him and he in us, we would have many good works.... without him , you can do nothing!
Without works, faith is dead. In deed this is true but not what many think....the "works" here are God's works through you and none of your own!
 
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StanJ

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Christ is the Baptizer, not the Holy Spirit...

John 1:33
And I knew Him not:
but He that sent me to baptize with water,
the Same said unto me,
"Upon Whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending,
and remaining on Him,
the Same is He baptizing in the Holy Spirit."


Christ Who was Baptized IS the Baptizer...
Straight from God to John the Forerunner...

Arsenios

1 Cor 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
 
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Arsenios

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1 Cor 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

BY is a false gloss - The Greek is IN - And the reason it is a bad gloss is because it translates EN plus Dative as a dative of agency, which it is not... When the text reads: "baptized IN one Spirit", it is NOT saying "baptized BY that Spirit." Baptized BY Christ IN the Holy Spirit is the correct understanding...

και γαρ εν ενι πνευματι ημεις παντες εις εν σωμα
For also in one Spirit we all into one body... (are baptized)

The en/in here means within...

Arsenios
 
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Again I'm not really understanding where you're going here because it's way too mystical. In the body of Christ is indeed a metaphysical body represented buy actual physical beings. 1 Cor 12 explains the Body of Christ and Paul was not around when John wrote Revelation, and you still haven't explained what you mean by The Real Marriage of the Lamb?
Collectively we are all part of the body of Christ but that body is Paul clearly explains his individual parts which have individual uses. The body of Christ is not a Melting Pot where we all become homogeneous.

Paul said it was a Great Mystery... Which makes it too mystical, I suppose...??

Paul also said:
"To live - Christ."
And
"To die - Gain."

The incarnation of Christ is ongoing in us who are members of His Body, the Church...
He said if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father...
If you have seen a Holy One of God, you have seen Christ...


Each unique...
All One...
Living Christ each day...


Arsenios
 
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StanJ

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BY is a false gloss - The Greek is IN - And the reason it is a bad gloss is because it translates EN plus Dative as a dative of agency, which it is not... When the text reads: "baptized IN one Spirit", it is NOT saying "baptized BY that Spirit." Baptized BY Christ IN the Holy Spirit is the correct understanding...

και γαρ εν ενι πνευματι ημεις παντες εις εν σωμα
For also in one Spirit we all into one body... (are baptized)

The en/in here means within...

Arsenios
Well you can take that up with the authors of the NIV and Bill Mounce, but in any event the Greek word conveys; by, with, in, or on, pending on the context it is being used in.
The Holy Spirit is an equal part of the Trinity, not soley a subservient one? This is not just a matter of equivocating about word meanings, but it is about putting them all together to exegete a proper rendering keeping all scripture in mind. One scripture does not contradict another scripture. We either accept everything that the Bible is telling us about the Holy Spirit or we accept nothing. The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary in Matthew 1:20 and as such, by Him we are baptised with fire and power.
 
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StanJ

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Paul said it was a Great Mystery... Which makes it too mystical, I suppose...??
Paul also said:
"To live - Christ."
And
"To die - Gain."
The incarnation of Christ is ongoing in us who are members of His Body, the Church...
He said if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father...
If you have seen a Holy One of God, you have seen Christ...
Each unique...
All One...
Living Christ each day...
Arsenios
As I've already shown, Paul explained the mystery.
Proper exegesis means we cannot pick one part of a scripture OUT of context and use it to support whatever we want it to. In the context of Philippians 1:18-26, the gain Paul is talking about would be the rewards of martyrdom not only for him personally but for the kingdom of God on a whole.
 
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As I've already shown, Paul explained the mystery.

Mysteries are KNOWN but not EXPLAINED...
Parables can be explained...

Paul wrote: "We are HOLDING the MYSTERY of the Faith in a PURIFIED CONSCIENCE."
It is this HOLDING that is the KNOWING of the Mystery...
But it is the MEANS that bears repeating - eg Purification of the Heart...
The Mystery of the Faith of Jesus Christ is held in Purity of Heart...
It is NOT held is exegetical deductive explanation...

This is why the first word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is:

"REPENT!"

Proper exegesis means we cannot pick one part of a scripture OUT of context
and use it to support whatever we want it to.

I was weaving a few illustrations, not hammering home an exegetical point...

In the context of Philippians 1:18-26,
the gain Paul is talking about would be the rewards of martyrdom
not only for him personally but for the kingdom of God on a whole.

Yes, live or die, he will magnify Christ IN HIS BODY...

And he gives us this, which is astonishing to many who call themselves Christians:

Php 1:29
For unto you it is given
in the behalf of Christ,
not only to believe on him,
but also to suffer
for His sake;


To suffer is to bear witness to Christ...
And to purify one's conscience...

1Pet 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh,
arm yourselves likewise with the same mind:
for he that hath suffered in the flesh

hath ceased from sin;

Arsenios
 
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