NDEs and ADCs: Awesome Verifications

Butch5

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So you at last admit that you haven't watched my videos or posted websites,, indeed, you probably haven't even carefully read and pondered all my evidentiary cases. I'm reminded of what one of the most famous and prolific Protestant theologians of the 20th century once said: "I don't ask people to agree with me. I don't even ask them to read me. But if they're going to criticize me, then I expect them to read me, and preferably all of me." You are like the JWs who come to my door, but when I try to pose questions and issues to them, they're barely paying attention, already thinking of the canned answer they need to give to the question.

One last time, Butch, I'm asking you to be honest and view my entire thread and its videos. I'll do the same for you, if requested to read your threads. Leave your carefully insulated theological Ghetto and breathe the refreshing atmosphere of honest and open inquiry. Ot just simply show courtesy by being a good listener and reader.

It doesn't matter how many people you parade before me saying that 5+5=30. The facts are that 5+5 does not equal 30. I don't need to read all of your posts and watch all of your videos to know that the dead "CANNOT" communicate with the living. They are dead. You keep talking about intellectual honesty yet you've not addressed the evidence against your position. You can continue to post video after video after video, it won't change the fact that the dead cannot communicate with the living. Rather that continue to post the "opinions" of people why not make a Biblical case for what you are trying to prove?
 
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ToBeLoved

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The greatest enemy of Christian faith is secular materialism. The most compelling NDEs and ADCs are the most effective way to shatter that vitality sapping worldview. Also, they provide striking parallels to biblical resurrection reports and angelic visions. Together with the most evidential paranormal experiences (healings, premonitions, etc.) they are the most effective rational tool for persuading skeptics, though they are no substitute for biblical understanding and traditional Christian apologetics. Stay tuned for more powerfully evidential NDEs and ADCs.
Under the same type of logic would be Nostradomus and Edgar Cayce. That's a slippery slope. I went there with this logic many years ago. It lead to a lot of confusion and doubt because if you just want to 'pick out the Christian' ones, you are not being honest and leading people down a path that is not right.

I now, would not go there with a 10 foot pole.

That is not defending the faith, which is what apologetics is.
 
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ToBeLoved

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All of Butch's comments ignore or miss the point of the texts I discuss and no modern academic commentary supports them. I encourage other readers to read our debate and weigh in to provide context for my forthcoming refutation of Butch's interpretations. Meanwhile, I will move directly to the answers to my 4 questions that, I think, provide a biblical warrant for NDEs and ADCs.

1. In the OT where does a dead spirit communicate with the living?
In 1 Samuel 28:8-29, Saul communicates with the deceased prophet Samuel through the medium of Endor. 28:14 makes it clear that this really is the spirit of Samuel! So if Samuel can communicate through a medium, why can't our beloved dead communicate with us through NDEs and ADCs? True, the Bible condemns mediumship as the means for such communications, but it doesn't condemn the claim that the dead can take the initiative in contacting the living.

2. In what 2 Gospel stories do dead spirits return to appear to the living?
First, in Jesus' Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appear to Peter, James, and John and discuss Jesus' future fate (Luke 9:28-36). If Moses' spirit can return from the dead to appear to the disciples, why can't our beloved dead manifest to us in NDEs and ADCs? Second, at the moment of Jesus' death, some of the saintly dead are resurrected and they appear to Jerusalem residents until after Jesus' resurrection (Matthew 27:52-53).

3. Which NT and Catholic OT texts portray the dead as monitoring the progress of the living, cheering them on, and offering them aid.
(a) At Caesarea Philippi, Jesus asks His disciples who people think He really is and they guess that Jesus is Jeremiah the prophet (Matthew 16:14). How can anyone imagine Jesus is really the long-dead Jeremiah? The answer can be found in a waking vision of Judas Maccabaeus, the great Jewish leader of the Maccabean revolt against the Syrian Greeks in 175-163 BC (see 2 Maccabees 15:11-16 in the Catholic OT). In his vision, Judas sees the murdered high priest, Onias, who is monitoring the course of the revolt and is therefore engaged in a ministry of intercessory prayer in support of the Jewish freedom fighters. Onias introduces the late prophet Jeremiah as another prayer intercessor who has also been monitoring military affairs in Israel: "Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword and as he gave it, he addressed him thus: "Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries (15:15-16).""

(b) "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us (Hebrews 12:1)."
Commentaries point out that this verse employs the poetic image of a great heavenly Coliseum in which distant spectators ("the cloud of witnesses") watch us compete in our athletic long races of endurance. Who exactly are these witnesses? The introductory "therefore" includes among them the OT heroes of faith discussed in chapter 11, who often suffered martyrdom, but this crowd likely includes all deceased saints. In Hebrews "witnesses" (Greek: "martyres") means "eyewitnesses." So the image is reminiscent of the vision of Onias the high priest and the prophet Jeremiah in 2 Maccabees 15:11-16, a text that serves as its background. The beloved dead saints monitor our difficult progress, cheer us on, and bring us aid. Consider this comment about the joy of "friends and neighbors" in the rescue of the lost sheep: "Just so, there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance (Luke 15:7)." In my view, this includes the joy of deceased saints over earthly repentance that they are monitoring.

Orthodox Christians believe in and at times recite the Apostles' Creed. But do you really understand the affirmation, "I believe in the communion of saints?" This affirmation is based in part on the unity of Christ's body in 1 Corinthians 12, but it also includes the unity and interconnectedness of living and deceased saints, including especially the intercession of dead saints on the basis of the precedents established by 2 Maccabees 15 and Hebrews 12:1.

4. Where can we find an NDE and a possible OBE in Scripture?
As Stephen is about to be stoned to death, he has a sort of NDE vision of heaven, the glory of God, and Jesus (Acts 7:54-58) and Paul boasts of what seems to be an out of body experience in 2 Corinthians 12:1-8. Such experiences seem to be commonplace among the Corinthians.
How many 'cases' have you read? They were all Christian?
 
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ToBeLoved

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The paranormal evidence doesn't get any better than this for the 2 men who had these ADC experiences.
(1a) Here is Telly Savalas's mind-boogling ghost encounter:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...8830B507DA76D0D269568830B507DA76D0D&FORM=VIRE

(1b) Next is my friend Leonard's equally supernatural ADC. Leonard was a wealthy retired construction baron and a member of the United Methodist church I pastored in the late 1990s in western New York. We became friends and I sometimes had dinner with him and his wife Helen when I paid him a visit. He was always worried about the health problems of family members, whom I accordingly visited. One Sunday, he asked me if I'd be willing to visit his dying cousin who lived across the highway from him. His cousin was an atheist recluse, who was dying of lung cancer, but wanted no visitors. But he was so depressed that Leonard wanted me to drop by to discuss whether we should intrude on him anyway to show that we about his suffering. When I arrived at Leonard's house, he was absent due to a shopping errand in town.

As I stood, talking to Helen, this thought struck me: Leonard was a real worry wart; yet he never seemed to grieve the loss of his son Jeff, Jeff's wife Karen, and their 2 children in a small plane crash. For some reason, I mentioned this perception to Helen and was intrigued by her reply. She said that Leonard's grieving had been healed by a postmortem encounter with Jeff, adding, "But he doesn't like to talk about it." The next time I met Leonard I was overcome with curiosity and asked if he'd be willing to talk about his ADC. Leonard seemed very uncomfortable with my intrusive request because he thought Id think he was crazy. This is the story he shared with me.

After the funerals, Leonard was about to drive Jeff's old pickup truck to town to do some errands. As he approached the end of his driveway, he saw someone's figure suddenly loom out of the ditch by the highway. To Leonard's dismay, it was his late son Jeff! Jeff walked up to the pickup and asked, "Can I take my old truck for a spin for old times' sake?" A numb Leonard complied and off Jeff drove north down Cty. Rte. 40 towards Rochester, NY. Jeff's conversation with his Dad had at least 2 purposes: (a) to reassure his Dad that he, his wife, and his kids were all together and OK; (b) to give Leonard the information he needed to tie up the loose ends of Jeff's investment history. After driving a couple of miles, Jeff inexplicably turned right onto a less traveled highway. After a few minutes, he stopped the pickup, turned to his Dad, and said, "I'm sorry, Dad, but I'm not permitted to drive any further." Leonard never learned who was orchestrating this ADC. God? An Angel? Then Jeff got out of the pickup, walked towards a clump of trees, and vanished.

This ADC left Leonard in a state of shock. In retrospect, it now seemed like an odd dream and his grief was not assuaged by the experience. In fact, the next day, he was so overcome with grief that he went for a walk down the path in the woods behind his house. At some point, he sat on a log, overcome with sorrow. Suddenly, he heard the sound of a twig or branch breaking. When he looked up, there stood Jeff's wife Karen. She gently scolded him: "Didn't we tell you we are together and OK? You get back in the house with Mom and comfort her!" This second ADC healed Leonard's grief.

After sharing this experience, Leonard had a pained expression on his face as he gazed at my skeptical expression. I apologized that I was just having trouble processing such an incredible story. I felt badly because it was I who had pressed him to share a story he was reluctant to tell. I asked him if he had shared these ADCs with his daughters, and he replied, "No, they'd find it too hard to believe just like you." Leonard recently passed away, and I learned that a daughter shared this ADCs at his funeral. So coming out of the closet, as it were, with me seems to have emboldened him to tell his daughters.

Leonard's ADCs are the most supernatural experiences I have ever heard from someone I know well. Yet this story does not inspire me as much as other paranormal experiences I have either had or encountered. I think the reason for this is that these ADCs are far more disanalogous to my ordinary life experience.
How as a Christian you can 'desire' that other Christians do something that I think is pretty clearly unGodly is beyond me. You are leading others down your path. This should be in Controversial Doctrine at best.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Your dogmatic claims remind me of some Fundamentalists who argue that Satan created and planted dinosaur fossils in the ground to deceive sinners.
This post will refute your claims. A follow-up post will answer the 4 questions posed in Post #10 and defend ADCs and NDEs on biblical grounds.

Jesus:
(1) Luke 16:22-31: In this parable, the rich man, fully conscious in Hades, converses with Abraham. Such conversations can also be found in 1 Enoch.

(2) Mark 12:26-27: "Have you not read in the Book of Moses in the story about the bush, how God said to him (Moses), "I am [not "was") the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" He is God not of the dead but of the living. You (Butch :)) are quite wrong." The clear implications is that the long dead OT Patriarchs were alive at the time of Moses.

First, there is no 1 Enoch or the Book of Moses in the Bible, so what are you talking about that this is Biblical and in defense of the Christian faith. I know that Enoch is a gnostic book.

Second, if you are correct and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob lived during the time of Moses, why were they not slaves in Egypt like the rest of Israel?

P.S. Moses died BEFORE seeing or entering the Promised Land, so they were not in the Promised Land/.
 
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Deadworm

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Butch: "It doesn't matter how many people you parade before me saying that 5+5=30. The facts are that 5+5 does not equal 30."

It's reactions like that that rightly draw ridicule from skeptics who need a Savior. This just in: you don't know what videos you refuse to watch demonstrate. And you expect me to appreciate your uninformed interpretive screed, but you refuse to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Butch: I don't need to read all of your posts and watch all of your videos to know that the dead "CANNOT" communicate with the living. They are dead."

Yeah, that's what the first Jewish skeptics said about Jesus' resurrection appearances. Do you just accept the Bible uncritically without considering challenges to its inspiration? If you do, you're not taking the Word of God seriously. It honors our Lord to humble ourselves and consider the possibility that we are wrong, and then strive for confirmatory evidence and alternative views that get us beyond mere wishful thinking. Have you considered the possibility that God sent me into your life to correct your false beliefs that distance you from the extraordinary life-changing miracles God is performing in ordinary experience to draw alienated people to His grace?
 
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Butch5

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It's reactions like that that rightly draw ridicule from skeptics who need a Savior. This just in: you don't know what videos you refuse to watch demonstrate. And you expect me to appreciate your uninformed interpretive screed, but you refuse to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

You've already stated what you're trying to prove. This is from your OP.

"This thread will initially focus on unique evidence from 5 categories of NDEs (Near-Death Experiences) and ADCs (After-Death Communications):
(1) ADCs in which the Dead Drive a Vehicle to Help or Comfort the Percipient
(3) Artifacts Left as Evidence by the Deceased
(4) Encounters with Unknown Deceased People Whose Identity Is Later Verified
(5) Other Forms of Paranormal Verifications of NDEs

I know from Scripture that this is impossible. What point is there in considering the totality of your evidence when the premise is impossible? I looked at some and it's contradicts the Scriptures. Your premise contradicts the Scriptures as does the evidence I looked at.

Yeah, that's what the first Jewish skeptics said about Jesus' resurrection appearances. Do you just accept the Bible uncritically without considering challenges to its inspiration? If you do, you're not taking the Word of God seriously. It honors our Lord to humble ourselves and consider the possibility that we are wrong, and then strive for confirmatory evidence and alternative views that get us beyond mere wishful thinking. Have you considered the possibility that God sent me into your life to correct your false beliefs that distance you from the extraordinary life-changing miracles God is performing in ordinary experience to draw alienated people to His grace?

I have and do consider the possibility that I can be wrong. As I said, I used to believe that people could live apart from the body. I used to believe that people could talk to the dead. It's because I am willing to be wrong and look at the evidence "honestly" that I have come to the position that I have come to. Have I considered that God sent you? No, because what you're saying is contrary to the Scriptures.

I don't just accept what people say and I do look at the Scriptures critically, that's how I came to this position. I don't use inferences or possibilities when forming doctrine. I use clear statements from Scripture and I look at "all" of the evidence to come to a conclusion. You keep talking about evidence but what I've seen is simply opinion. Giving me someone's story isn't fact. I watched the video from Storm. How do you verify anything he said? I don't believe you can. Therefore it isn't fact it's opinion. The Story about the dollar, it's not fact it's opinion. I'm not really sure how you think this brings people to Christ.
 
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Deadworm

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Butch, God is in the details. The NDE and ADC evidence that I am mounting is far superior to any biblical evidence for Jesus' resurrection. Indeed, the ADCs and NDEs I report about 2 or several people seeing and conversing with the dead and bringing back artifacts from the dead STRONGLY CONFIRM the possibility of Jesus' resurrection. We have the eyewitnesses, including doctors, and nurses. We have the transformed lives and spiritual beliefs. And we have so many more witnesses than in the Gospels, where the evidence is sufficiently disconnected from the eyewitnesses that honest scholars believe most of it is invented and apologists like me need to start threads establishing some connections between Jesus and eyewitnesses.

(4) Let's move on to the next evidential category of NDEs--those in which the dying witnesses encounter relatives they never knew they had:
(4a) Todd Burpo is an evangelical Wesleyan pastor in Nebraska. His little son, Colton, at age 4 almost died in surgery from an adverse reaction to acute appendicitis. When Colton recovered and returned home, he gradually revealed his encounter with Jesus, God, Heaven's dazzling beauty, and much more.

More evidentially crucial, he recalled being greeted and hugged by a little girl who identified herself as his sister. When Colton told his Mom Sonja that he had 2 sisters, Sonja thought he was mixing up his female cousin with a second sister. Sonja insisted that Cassie was his only sister. Then Colton (age 4!) contradicted his Mom, telling her, "After she hugged me at Heaven's gate, she told me she died in your tummy!" Sonja was stunned because she had never told her young children about her miscarriage. Mom then asked Colton, "What was her name?" Colton's stunning reply: "You never gave her a name."

Colton then described traveling around Heaven with "Pop," his great grandfather. Pop is the name that Colton's Dad, Todd, gave this man. Pop shared details of his life with young Todd that Todd had never shared with Colton! Such spectacular verifications are commonplace in NDEs and ADCs.

Now Butch, Todd Burpo is an evangelical Wesleyan Methodist pastor. Do you really believe Satan would be permitted to give his 4-year-old son a false vision with verifications added to make the lie convincing? If so, you are a very stupid and close-minded man. If you google YouTube and Todd Burpo's best selling book, "Heaven is for Real," you can see these Christians for yourself. The book was made into an excellent movie with the same title. Such cases can be multiplied.
 
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Butch5

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Butch, God is in the details. The NDE and ADC evidence that I am mounting is far superior to any biblical evidence for Jesus' resurrection. Indeed, the ADCs and NDEs I report about 2 or several people seeing and conversing with the dead and bringing back artifacts from the dead STRONGLY CONFIRM the possibility of Jesus' resurrection. We have the eyewitnesses, including doctors, and nurses. We have the transformed lives and spiritual beliefs. And we have so many more witnesses than in the Gospels, where the evidence is sufficiently disconnected from the eyewitnesses that honest scholars believe most of it is invented and apologists like me need to start threads establishing some connections between Jesus and eyewitnesses.

(4) Let's move on to the next evidential category of NDEs--those in which the dying witnesses encounter relatives they never knew they had:
(4a) Todd Burpo is an evangelical Wesleyan pastor in Nebraska. His little son, Colton, at age 3 almost died in surgery from an adverse reaction to acute appendicitis. When Colton recovered and returned home, he gradually revealed his encounter with Jesus, God, Heaven's dazzling beauty, and much more.

More evidentially crucial, he recalled being greeted and hugged by a little girl who identified herself as his sister. When Colton told his Mom that he had 2 sisters, Mom thought he was mixing up his female cousin with a second sister. His Mom insisted that Cassie was his only sister. Then Colton (just 4 at the time) contradicted his Mom, telling her, "After she hugged me at Heaven's gate, she told me she died in your tummy!" His Mom was stunned because she had never told her young children about her miscarriage. Mom then asked Colton, "What was her name?" Colton's stunning reply: "You never gave her a name."

Colton then described traveling around Heaven with "Pop," his great grandfather. Pop is the name that Colton's Dad, Todd, gave this man. Pop shared details of his life with young Todd that Todd had never shared with Colton! Such spectacular verifications are commonplace in NDEs and ADCs.

You have no way to verify that. Also, it was a 3 year old child. But more to the point it contradicts Scripture. Why do you accept these accounts over the authority of Scripture?

Haven't you ever wondered why these things only seem to happen to those who are near death. Why don't they happen to the average Joe walking down the street?
 
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ToBeLoved

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Butch, God is in the details. The NDE and ADC evidence that I am mounting is far superior to any biblical evidence for Jesus' resurrection. Indeed, the ADCs and NDEs I report about 2 or several people seeing and conversing with the dead and bringing back artifacts from the dead STRONGLY CONFIRM the possibility of Jesus' resurrection. We have the eyewitnesses, including doctors, and nurses. We have the transformed lives and spiritual beliefs. And we have so many more witnesses than in the Gospels, where the evidence is sufficiently disconnected from the eyewitnesses that honest scholars believe most of it is invented and apologists like me need to start threads establishing some connections between Jesus and eyewitnesses.

(4) Let's move on to the next evidential category of NDEs--those in which the dying witnesses encounter relatives they never knew they had:
(4a) Todd Burpo is an evangelical Wesleyan pastor in Nebraska. His little son, Colton, at age 4 almost died in surgery from an adverse reaction to acute appendicitis. When Colton recovered and returned home, he gradually revealed his encounter with Jesus, God, Heaven's dazzling beauty, and much more.

More evidentially crucial, he recalled being greeted and hugged by a little girl who identified herself as his sister. When Colton told his Mom Sonja that he had 2 sisters, Sonja thought he was mixing up his female cousin with a second sister. Sonja insisted that Cassie was his only sister. Then Colton (age 4!) contradicted his Mom, telling her, "After she hugged me at Heaven's gate, she told me she died in your tummy!" Sonja was stunned because she had never told her young children about her miscarriage. Mom then asked Colton, "What was her name?" Colton's stunning reply: "You never gave her a name."

Colton then described traveling around Heaven with "Pop," his great grandfather. Pop is the name that Colton's Dad, Todd, gave this man. Pop shared details of his life with young Todd that Todd had never shared with Colton! Such spectacular verifications are commonplace in NDEs and ADCs.

Now Butch, Todd Burpo is an evangelical Wesleyan Methodist pastor. Do you really believe Satan would be permitted to give his 4-year-old son a false vision with verifications added to make the lie convincing? If so, you are a very stupid and close-minded man. If you google YouTube and Todd Burpo's best selling book, "Heaven is for Real," you can see these Christians for yourself. The book was made into an excellent movie with the same title. Such cases can be multiplied.
Would you please answer post #45?
 
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ToBeLoved

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Butch, God is in the details. The NDE and ADC evidence that I am mounting is far superior to any biblical evidence for Jesus' resurrection. Indeed, the ADCs and NDEs I report about 2 or several people seeing and conversing with the dead and bringing back artifacts from the dead STRONGLY CONFIRM the possibility of Jesus' resurrection. We have the eyewitnesses, including doctors, and nurses. We have the transformed lives and spiritual beliefs. And we have so many more witnesses than in the Gospels, where the evidence is sufficiently disconnected from the eyewitnesses that honest scholars believe most of it is invented and apologists like me need to start threads establishing some connections between Jesus and eyewitnesses.

(4) Let's move on to the next evidential category of NDEs--those in which the dying witnesses encounter relatives they never knew they had:
(4a) Todd Burpo is an evangelical Wesleyan pastor in Nebraska. His little son, Colton, at age 4 almost died in surgery from an adverse reaction to acute appendicitis. When Colton recovered and returned home, he gradually revealed his encounter with Jesus, God, Heaven's dazzling beauty, and much more.

More evidentially crucial, he recalled being greeted and hugged by a little girl who identified herself as his sister. When Colton told his Mom Sonja that he had 2 sisters, Sonja thought he was mixing up his female cousin with a second sister. Sonja insisted that Cassie was his only sister. Then Colton (age 4!) contradicted his Mom, telling her, "After she hugged me at Heaven's gate, she told me she died in your tummy!" Sonja was stunned because she had never told her young children about her miscarriage. Mom then asked Colton, "What was her name?" Colton's stunning reply: "You never gave her a name."

Colton then described traveling around Heaven with "Pop," his great grandfather. Pop is the name that Colton's Dad, Todd, gave this man. Pop shared details of his life with young Todd that Todd had never shared with Colton! Such spectacular verifications are commonplace in NDEs and ADCs.

Now Butch, Todd Burpo is an evangelical Wesleyan Methodist pastor. Do you really believe Satan would be permitted to give his 4-year-old son a false vision with verifications added to make the lie convincing? If so, you are a very stupid and close-minded man. If you google YouTube and Todd Burpo's best selling book, "Heaven is for Real," you can see these Christians for yourself. The book was made into an excellent movie with the same title. Such cases can be multiplied.
You are really cherry-picking these NDE's. I've read probably more than you have and they are not always Christians who have great experiences, and some Christians have scary experiences.

How many of these have you researched and what kinds?
 
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Deadworm

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Butch: You have no way to verify that. Also, it was a 4 year old child. But more to the point it contradicts Scripture.

Nor do you have any way to verify biblical miracles. And that year-old revealed facts he could have no way of knowing. Before you start calling all evangelicals liars who disagree with you, at least do some homework: watch some of the many videod interviews of the Burpos, and then compare that with comparable cases with equally astounding verifications.

Butch: Haven't you ever wondered why these things only seem to happen to those who are near death. Why don't they happen to the average Joe walking down the street?

They do, but you seem so trapped in your myopic cultic Ghetto, and so, you are clueless as to how miraculously God is moving in many lives in all situations. For example, have you read my threads in the Spiritual Gifts section on Spirit Baptism and the Spirituality of Premonitions? Or my thread in Praise Reports on The Right Prayer Partner. You just need to get out more.
 
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FireDragon76

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This reminds me of Christians condemning Copernicus and Gallileo merely because the scientific evidence didn't match up with their interpretation of the Bible. Rather than admit their hermeneutic of Scriptures was wrong, they simply condemned Galilleo as a heretic.

If NDE's were some kind of hallucination, why have so many doctors, particularly those like cardiologists that work with gravely ill or dying individuals, changed their metaphysical assumptions or beliefs in response? Usually, these are the sorts of people trained to be critical thinkers and not gullible. In quite a few cases, nurses and doctors have noticed that patients have knowledge of the life-saving medical procedures that they should not have known, not unless somehow they were outside their body looking down. Under our current scientific consensus, that shouldn't be possible.

Here's a paper by cardiologist Pim Van Lommel. He worked as a cardiologist for decades in the Netherlands, a country that has some of the lowest religious belief in Europe. And yet the evidence was persuasive enough for him to develop a new hypothesis on what the relationship of the human mind is to the brain:
http://pimvanlommel.nl/files/publicaties/Lancet artikel Pim van Lommel.pdf

Given that most atheists do not believe that the mind can exist when the body dies, or that a mind can exist apart from a body, I'd say this evidence is pertinent to Christian apologetics. Trying to convince an atheist to believe based on the evidence of the Bible alone, on the other hand, is often not going to be persuasive because it's ultimately circular reasoning. If our goal is to persuade rather than to shut down arguments, evidence has to matter.
 
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Butch5

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Nor do you have any way to verify biblical miracles. And that year-old revealed facts he could have no way of knowing. Before you start calling all evangelicals liars who disagree with you, at least do some homework: watch some of the many videod interviews of the Burpos, and then compare that with comparable cases with equally astounding verifications.

Firstly, I didn't call anyone a liar. Secondly, the child could easily have overheard conversations that took place. So now you not only want me to believe that people interact with the dead, but you want me to also believe that the dead grow older. If the child died before birth it would a best be an infant. Yet, in this account the little boy is walking with his sister. That would mean that the sister had to grow older and develop to be able to walk. Additionally, walking requires a body.

Thirdly, and most importantly, what you're claiming is impossible according to the Scriptures. However, that doesn't seem to bother you for some reason. In Gen 2:7 Moses give the account of the creation of man. He records that God formed man from the dust of the earth. That means that man consists of the elements of the earth. The man was just a body. Then God breathed into the man His breath or spirit of life and the man became a living soul. From this we can conclude that man consists of two components, a body, from the elements of the earth, and the breath or spirit of God. Ecclesiastes tells us what happens to the man when he dies. The breath or spirit of God that is in man returns to God and the man, the body returns to the dust. That is the Scriptural account of man's creation and demise. There is nothing left of the man to live on after death. There is nothing to "call up". There is nothing for people to interact with. The man is dead.

This takes us back to my first post. Since it is impossible to communicate with dead people any interaction is with either angels or demons. So, you might want to be very careful of where you go with this.

Butch: Haven't you ever wondered why these things only seem to happen to those who are near death. Why don't they happen to the average Joe walking down the street?

They do, but you seem so trapped in your myopic cultic Ghetto, and so, you are clueless as to how miraculously God is moving in many lives in all situations. For example, have you read my threads in the Spiritual Gifts section on Spirit Baptism and the Spirituality of Premonitions? Or my thread in Praise Reports on The Right Prayer Partner. You just need to get out more.

You're continued ad hominems do nothing to further your argument. They simply suggest that you don't really have one. You keep saying this is from God, yet you have no way of knowing that. Since it is either angels or demons you better make sure you've got this right. However, since God strictly forbid the Israelites from participating in Necromancy, I seriously doubt that this is from Him.

No, I hadn't seen your other thread. However, now that you mentioned it I went and looked at the op. As I suspected from the title I will wholeheartedly disagree with it. I've spent quite a bit of time studying the Scriptures about the subject of Spiritual gifts along with church history and have come to a different conclusion. As far as getting out more, if it leads to the conclusions you've drawn, maybe I'd be better off staying in and studying the Scriptures. Hey, maybe you would be too.
 
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Butch5

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This reminds me of Christians condemning Copernicus and Gallileo merely because the scientific evidence didn't match up with their interpretation of the Bible. Rather than admit their hermeneutic of Scriptures was wrong, they simply condemned Galilleo as a heretic.

If NDE's were some kind of hallucination, why have so many doctors, particularly those like cardiologists that work with gravely ill or dying individuals, changed their metaphysical assumptions or beliefs in response? Usually, these are the sorts of people trained to be critical thinkers and not gullible. In quite a few cases, nurses and doctors have noticed that patients have knowledge of the life-saving medical procedures that they should not have known, not unless somehow they were outside their body looking down. Under our current scientific consensus, that shouldn't be possible.

Here's a paper by cardiologist Pim Van Lommel. He worked as a cardiologist for decades in the Netherlands, a country that has some of the lowest religious belief in Europe. And yet the evidence was persuasive enough for him to develop a new hypothesis on what the relationship of the human mind is to the brain:
http://pimvanlommel.nl/files/publicaties/Lancet artikel Pim van Lommel.pdf

Given that most atheists do not believe that the mind can exist when the body dies, or that a mind can exist apart from a body, I'd say this evidence is pertinent to Christian apologetics. Trying to convince an atheist to believe based on the evidence of the Bible alone, on the other hand, is often not going to be persuasive because it's ultimately circular reasoning. If our goal is to persuade rather than to shut down arguments, evidence has to matter.

Evidence matters, but is not conclusive. Evidence is subject to one's world view. That's why it's so hard to convince and atheist. People interpret the evidence based on their world view. This is why a creation scientist and an evolutionary scientist can both look at the same evidence and come away with different conclusions. They're evaluating the evidence based on the presuppositions or world view that they have. You see that's what's going on in this thread. Deadworm comes to the this evidence with the presupposition that the dead can communicate with the living and vice versa. I on the other hand do not. I presuppose that the dead cannot communicate with the living and as such the evidence that he puts forth is not compelling to me. It's why his evidence doesn't convince me. What makes me believe that I am correct and he is not is that the presupposition that I'm bringing to the text is confirmed by Scripture. I don't believe his is and I can show that it's not from the Scriptures.
 
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FireDragon76

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Half the book of Revelation is in contradiction to the doctrine of Soul Sleep. As is Christ's answer to the good thief, that he would be with him in Paradise. In order to accept soul sleep, you must ignore the entire witness of Scriptures, choosing only some verses at the expense of others.
 
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KWCrazy

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Since it isn't possible for the dead to communicate with the living the only possible explanation is that these encounters are either angels or demons. They are not dead people. The Scripture are clear on what a man is and what happens to him when he is dead.
1 Samuel 8: 8-20.
Mark 9: 2-8
 
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Butch5

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Half the book of Revelation is in contradiction to the doctrine of Soul Sleep. As is Christ's answer to the good thief, that he would be with him in Paradise. In order to accept soul sleep, you must ignore the entire witness of Scriptures, choosing only some verses at the expense of others.

I don't use the term soul sleep because it seems to have many definitions. As I said, the dead are dead. Regarding the Scriptures, my position is in harmony with them. I don't have to ignore any passages of Scripture. The passages that you indicated are typically misunderstood due to Christians proof texting verses out of context. I'll give you an example of what is probably the most ironic, 2 Cor. 5:8 People misquote this and say, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. They say that this proves that the dead are present and conscious with the Lord. What is ironic about it is that in this passage Paul is actually arguing against that very idea. You see, it was the Greeks who believed that when a man dies there was a part of him that continued to live on and ascend into the heavens. Paul is arguing that that is not the case. if you read the from about the middle of chapter 4 to the end of 5 it's pretty clear what he's saying. He says that he doesn't want to be found naked. He says this in reference to the body. In other words, he doesn't want to be without a body. The problem is that too many Christians are taught to just take a sentence here and there to prove what they've been taught rather than reading passages in context.

To show you that there is no conflict between my position and the Scriptures I'll address any passage you post.
 
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Butch5

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1 Samuel 8: 8-20.
Mark 9: 2-8

I'm not sure what you're getting at in 1 Samuel 8. Regarding Mark 9 and the transfiguration, if you read Mathew's account Jesus states plainly that what they saw was a vision. It was a vision, not of Moses and Elijah dead, but rather in their resurrected state. It was a vision of Christ's second coming. Notice Jesus said that there were some standing there that would not see death before they saw the kingdom coming in power. Peter confirms that it was the coming of Christ in his epistle.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. (2 Pet. 1:16-18 KJV)

They saw a vision of the coming of Christ.
 
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Jews of Jesus day believed that too. That's why we have the word "Paradise", from the Persian word Pardes, garden. After death, the righteous go to a garden and enjoy the presence of God.

The Bible attests to the Jewish tradition of both Moses and Elijah going to heaven bodily. So the Transfiguration was not a mere vision of a future state, it was a vision of Christ glory fulfilling the Torah and the Prophets in the present.
 
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