A christian commits suicide?

Hieronymus · Jun 7, 2016

Jason0047 said:
The Bible says He that overcomes I will give him the crown of life.

That would be Christ primarily.

Suicide does not sound like they are overcoming in their faith but it sounds like they are giving up on their faith.

I suppose there is no faith left when you're that deep down in misery.
Just hope remains that suicide will solve something.
For one, it will end that miserable life.

Are we not saved by grace THRU faith? Does not suicide sound like a way of ending all of that?

I agree it does.

You know. A last selfish and sinful act that God cannot agree with?

Don't judge what you have never experienced yourself.
It's not selfish (although it can be i.m.o.) it is rather self-loathing, the ego is in its terminal phase when you want to give it up.
Stop existing as you exist on earth.
It's not seeing any way out anymore, no motivation to live.
And no faith that God may turn things around for you on earth.
It's deeply sad.

Ariel Gavriel · Jun 7, 2016

Possible questions to address:

So, what about such a person? Is it even possible for a true christian to commit suicide?
Some may say suicide isn't even a sin, others compare suicide to self-murder.
Is suicide a forgivable sin? Can one be forgiven after death?
What does it mean if a person commits suicide, and why would any christian commit suicide? Do the condition of suicide matter in God's eyes?
What happened to Judas?
Just remember, we're not judging anyone in particular, this is purely theoretical.

1 Corinthians 16:19,20 tells us that as believers, our body is the temple in which the Holy Spirit dwells and that we do not belong to ourselves. We were bought with a price and therefore must glorify God in our body and spirit which are God's also. To kill ourselves is to destroy God's temple and to eliminate with our own hands the very thing for which Christ died...Think about it! :scratch:

God does not expect believers to treat their bodies in any disrespectful manner. As a matter of fact, when discussing another topic in relation to marriage Paul says in Ephesians 5:29-30 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 7, 2016

Hieronymus said:
That would be Christ primarily.I suppose there is no faith left when you're that deep down in misery.
Just hope remains that suicide will solve something.
For one, it will end that miserable life.I agree it does.Don't judge what you have never experienced yourself.
It's not selfish (although it can be i.m.o.) it is rather self-loathing, the ego is in its terminal phase when you want to give it up.
Stop existing as you exist on earth.
It's not seeing any way out anymore, no motivation to live.
And no faith that God may turn things around for you on earth.
It's deeply sad.

No. James is not talking about Jesus in James 1:12.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

Jesus cannot be tempted internally to sin because He is the Holy Son of God.

And John is not talking about Jesus in Revelation 2:10, either.

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

Cast "some of you" into prison does not sound like it is talking about Jesus unless you think there is more than one Jesus.

As for judging the sin of suicide: Well, the Bible already condemns it. So it is not a matter of opinion.

1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. A person who takes their own life is a self murderer.

1 Corinthians 3:17 says, "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." I would say that defiling your temple by destroying it yourself is grounds for God to destroy your spiritual temple (i.e. the spirit or the inner court of the temple - Granted, God will also later destroy the outer court of the temple, too - For there will be a bodily resurrection of the wicked - but afterwards they will be destroyed or annihilated in the Lake of Fire).

....

Hieronymus · Jun 7, 2016

Jason0047 said:
No. James is not talking about Jesus in James 1:12.

You're right, but you wrote "He" earlier.

But it has little to do with temptation i.m.o.
..or does it..? Hmm...
Depends on how you look at it i suppose...

As for judging the sin of suicide: Well, the Bible already condemns it. So it is not a matter of opinion.

1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. A person who takes their own life is a self murderer.

To me it seems you want it to be murder like every murder.
I say it's rather different to take another person's life against his / her will and / or without a proper cause (like defence), than it is to take your own life because it's unbearable.
I'm sure you can appreciate the difference too.

1 Corinthians 3:17 says, "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." I would say that defiling your temple by destroying it yourself is grounds for God to destroy your spiritual temple (i.e. the spirit or the inner court of the temple - Granted, God will also later destroy the outer court of the temple, too - For there will be a bodily resurrection of the wicked - but afterwards they will be destroyed or annihilated in the Lake of Fire).

....

Sure, we're not supposed to end our lives ourselves, i agree.
But i feel sympathy for the people that are so desperate, they end it all.
I see no reason to condemn them like i would condemn a murderer.
I'm sure God acknowledges the difference also.

timewerx · Jun 7, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Actually, believers are told to endure persecution. The parable of the sower shows us that the seed that fell among stony ground was not willing to go thru persecution fell away (and did not grow). This is a type of believer who had life for a while, but the rocky stones had stopped them from being fruitful.

...

Persecution is a far and wide subject. It ranges from people avoiding you, to literally being tortured.

Do you think it's reason enough to commit suicide if people are avoiding you or gossiping about you? My answer would be no.

But if someone did, I still won't be able to say they lost their salvation. I only have a questions, did their deaths resulted to a change for good? Did their deaths made people remorseful of the evil they did and perhaps caused them to repent?

If evil caused people to commit suicide, I will never blame the one who committed suicide, it's always the one who did evil.

Near · Jun 7, 2016

ewq1938 said:
Or the opposite is true and you are adding something into the bible where it doesn't exist.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/suicide-in-jewish-tradition-and-literature/

According to the same website, Jesus is considered a failed messiah.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ask-the-expert-who-was-jesus/

ewq1938 said:
In the Talmud (Bava Kama 91b), however, the prohibition is arrived at by a process of exegesis on the verse: "and surely your blood of your lives will I require" (Genesis 9: 5), interpreted as: "I will require your blood if you yourselves shed it." It is possible that there is no direct prohibition because very few people of sound mind would be inclined to commit suicide in any event.

It follows from this that suicide and murder are two separate offenses in the Jewish tradition, as they are in most cultures. Suicide is not homicide and is not covered in the Decalogue [the Ten Commandments]. In the usual rabbinic classification of duties, homicide would be considered an offense both "between man and God" and "between man and man," whereas suicide would fall only under the former heading.

The sources you quoted do not express ancient Judaism, but rather rabbinical Judaism, which is actually younger than Christianity if you take in the fact that the Talmud was written after the texts of the New Testament.
Jesus was against the Pharisees of his day who used the oral tradition of men (their own teachings, not God's), as opposed to the Torah. The pharisees had their own interpretation of things, while Jesus expressed truth.

Any mention of rabbinic culture, as if it were some authority, is meaningless. When it comes to Christian doctrine, Rabbinic culture today, has just as much authority as Islam. In fact, I'd consider Roman Catholicism to have more authority than Rabbinic Judaism, and I'm not a Catholic! Catholic texts do in fact teach that suicide is a sin.

EmmaCat · Jun 7, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Also, you have to consider that if you say it is okay in some cases for believers to commit suicide (with the thinking they are saved), then you are fueling the fire for them to do exactly that. You are giving them a reason to do it (regardless if you do not want them to do it). In other words, if something is really wrong (like suicide - which is a bad fruit), no good fruit will be reaped in sowing such an evil. Remember, the Bible says we reap what we sow. You sow evil (like with the sin of suicide) and you will reap the bad and unpleasant result of that in the after-life.

...

Hi, Jason!

I really do like and understand your points here. I like the way you put across your meaning and your points.

However, we were always taught to forgive any Christian of suicide. It happened here once and it was horrible. The poor man went to a doctor for some medicines to help him with a depression and the medicine made him crazy. He killed himself.

Our pastor, Rev. R, told us shortly after in a sermon that suicide is one of those things only God can judge. And he said our job is to lift him in prayer and forgive. I did a load of praying about it and forgave the man, and felt badly for him.

I was 14 when that happened, and I've never forgotten it.

But I do need to say you bring up good points without attacking the poster and you're polite. I respect that.

So, I'm going to say that I very respectfully disagree with you on this, and ask your forgiveness.

My Dad had leverage about this. He always said, "I spent six years in the US Air Force protecting your right to free speech, and I'll go to my grave still defending it whether I agree with you or not!"

All good things
Emmy

Near · Jun 7, 2016

Hieronymus said:
But i feel sympathy for the people that are so desperate, they end it all.
I see no reason to condemn them like i would condemn a murderer.
I'm sure God acknowledges the difference also.

Perhaps God sees a difference but nonetheless treats the sin of suicide like any other. I think the same reasoning you have expressed is also shared by those who teach divorce and marriage to another. People get lonely, and God understands if they want to be with someone. I believe that teaching to be completely misguided; we're not called to merely serve ourselves, but to serve God.

timewerx said:
Persecution is a far and wide subject. It ranges from people avoiding you, to literally being tortured.
Do you think it's reason enough to commit suicide if people are avoiding you or gossiping about you? My answer would be no.
But if someone did, I still won't be able to say they lost their salvation. I only have a questions, did their deaths resulted to a change for good? Did their deaths made people remorseful of the evil they did and perhaps caused them to repent?
If evil caused people to commit suicide, I will never blame the one who committed suicide, it's always the one who did evil.

Whether any good became of the death of a person who committed suicide doesn't mean anything is terms of being a sin or not. I think we can all agree that the bible lays out nonconsequentialism in terms of ethics, meaning the good or evil that comes out of an action does not change whether the action itself was good or evil.
I can see that you've come up with empathetic arguments, however, consider the following scenario.
In the middle east, a devout woman of Islam is raped by an evil man. In sorrow, she prays to Allah, but her situations get worse. By all means, she isn't a terrible person, but she is not a child of God. She later commits suicide because she is severely hopeless. While I feel sorry for such a person, I don't believe such a person would go to heaven.
That does sound insensitive, but logically it makes sense in terms of Christian doctrine. After all, only those who put their faith in Jesus, and endure to the end will be saved.
As for the conditions leading up the the suicide of a christian, if there was any faithlessness in God, that would be a sin, and we could say that the person denied Christ essentially.

fat wee robin · Jun 7, 2016

Near said:
Actually, you underlined, and bolded a few hebrew words:
וַאֲשֶׁר֙ לֹ֣א צָדָ֔ה וְהָאֱלֹהִ֖ים אִנָּ֣ה לְיָדֹ֑ו
None of which are translated as murder.
Your mistake is that you've taken one example, and used that as the definition of all that encompasses what is described as murder. Essentially, you are saying, "this verse doesn't mention suicide, therefore the definition of murder excludes suicide".
Take note that the word murder isn't even in the verses you quoted, but rather lying in wait is described, and then referred to again by yourself, which is irrelevant.

The hebrew word for murder is this one: רָצַח
Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder.
It doesn't mention suicide, and it doesn't explicitly say, "killing others only".

Since when do we say taking one's life is justified if it's self-determined?
It makes sense to say, rather than oppose the idea, that God's desire for us is to live productive lives in Christ.
Now, if my girlfriend dumps me, and in sorrow and hopelessness I decide to end it all, and kill myself, that would be going against God's will for my life. The killing wouldn't be justified.
Looking at this another way, if my suicide is assisted, and someone else kills me on my behalf, is that a justified killing?
In that case someone else does the killing, but is it justified?

Another thing, if your understanding of murder necessarily contains the aspect of someone lying in wait to kill, what about people who announce before you that they'll kill you? There's no secretive assault, as the verse you quoted describes, but a full revelation of the plan. That must not be murder in that view.

"The unjust killing of someone else. Suicide is not part of it's definition."
Well, you're not even defining murder, you literally just named a specific situation, "the killing of someone else", and said that's not suicide.

What if a gang of men are coming to kill you or rape you and you kill
yourself , or take poison, or some other terrible equivalent ?

Near · Jun 7, 2016

fat wee robin said:
What if a gang of men are coming to kill you or rape you and you kill yourself , or take poison, or some other terrible equivalent ?

I'd pray that God would deliver me. If he doesn't, well then that stinks. If he does, great. Suicide is not an option for me.

fat wee robin · Jun 7, 2016

Gabriel Anton said:
Possible questions to address:

Is it even possible for a true christian to commit suicide?

No.

Is suicide a forgivable sin? Can one be forgiven after death?

No. No.

What does it mean if a person commits suicide, and why would any christian commit suicide?

It means they submitted to what sin has offered to them. A way out of the darkness which sin has surrounded the person in.

Do the condition of suicide matter in God's eyes?
The soul was lost to sin in a spiritual war and death is the outcome.

What happened to Judas?
Betraying Jesus led to the absence of Light in his soul, allowing sin to permeate the suggestion of death upon him in which Judas accepted and acted upon to escape the misery of feeling guilt of knowing the Truth of the matter at hand.

I think ,you're certainty about no forgiveness after death, is wrong .There are things most people have not yet understood ,and this kind of stuff was to frighten people into
doing exactly what priests wanted them to do .
This kind of thing rests in the unknown ,or rather non concluded or only God knows .

fat wee robin · Jun 7, 2016

Ariel Gavriel said:
Possible questions to address:

1 Corinthians 16:19,20 tells us that as believers, our body is the temple in which the Holy Spirit dwells and that we do not belong to ourselves. We were bought with a price and therefore must glorify God in our body and spirit which are God's also. To kill ourselves is to destroy God's temple and to eliminate with our own hands the very thing for which Christ died...Think about it!

God does not expect believers to treat their bodies in any disrespectful manner. As a matter of fact, when discussing another topic in relation to marriage Paul says in Ephesians 5:29-30 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

Paul says that ,but Jesus did not .He never mentions our bodies ,but often talks of the Spirit ;Not once does He mention Bodies ,so there is too much emphasis on bodies
by carnal men following Paul .

Near · Jun 7, 2016

fat wee robin said:
Paul says that ,but Jesus did not .He never mentions our bodies ,but often talks of the Spirit ;Not once does He mention Bodies ,so there is too much emphasis on bodies
by carnal men following Paul .

As far as the thread is concerned, we're going to take into account all of the New Testament including Paul's epistles, in order to make determinations on the matter being discussed.

Hieronymus · Jun 7, 2016

Near said:
Perhaps God sees a difference but nonetheless treats the sin of suicide like any other.

That what He said?

I think the same reasoning you have expressed is also shared by those who teach divorce and marriage to another.

So i suck?

People get lonely, and God understands if they want to be with someone. I believe that teaching to be completely misguided; we're not called to merely serve ourselves, but to serve God.

yes i see, but that has nothing to do with the question at hand.

Anyway, i believe God feels for the miserable, and He understands every move anyone makes.
I feel sorry for people who committed suicide.
I know what a hell life can be, i have been close to the point of giving up by suicide altogether for quite a while in the past.
People who don't understand this should be thankful they don't know how it is.

grandvizier1006 · Jun 7, 2016

I belive it is, but once the deed is done I don't think a person goes to Hell, necessarily. In honor-based cultures where such a thing might be considered good, I think that Christianity goes against that. The human individual is valued and loved and not as irredeemable as a person living in those cultures would be taught to think. Suicide is often a form of escape--if people thought things could get better they wouldn't do it. So if someone is going to kill himself or herself we need to let them know that from the Christian standpoint God can save anyone through His grace. Scaring them out with "you'll go to Hell" won't work.

Born Again2004 · Jun 7, 2016

Near said:
Is suicide a forgivable sin? Can one be forgiven after death?

Mark 3:28-29 28 Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”

Steve Petersen · Jun 7, 2016

I was reading Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History. He details several martyrdoms by early believers that could be classified as suicides.

Near · Jun 7, 2016

Hieronymus said:
That what He said?
So i suck?yes i see, but that has nothing to do with the question at hand.

Anyway, i believe God feels for the miserable, and He understands every move anyone makes.
I feel sorry for people who committed suicide.
I know what a hell life can be, i have been close to the point of giving up by suicide altogether for quite a while in the past.
People who don't understand this should be thankful they don't know how it is.

I'm not saying you suck. I was pointing out the reasoning you provided, attacking the argument, not the arguer. I was also demonstrating what that type of reasoning can lead to, which is not central to the question, but not entirely irrelevant.

Born Again2004 said:
Mark 3:28-29 28 Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”

Thanks for the passage, but in what way is that related to the question at hand?

blackribbon · Jun 7, 2016

Most people who attempt to kill themselves, whether successful or not, don't really want to die...they simply want the hurting to stop. The hurting can be emotional pain, physical pain, or psychological pain (like internal voices telling them them to harm themselves). What normal person doesn't want to escape pain? We need to stop focus on the "side effect" (which is suicide) and rather on the problem itself.

If you truly believe that killing yourself is a sin. Do all the friend and family who missed the subtle signs because they were too busy or too self-focused to notice that the person was hitting that level of despair get to bear the sin of being an accessory to murder, then?

If someone sticks a gun to one's head and says "deny your god or die"....and it is obvious that he means it...isn't the person that says "No, I won't deny my Lord" also committing suicide in a way. They know that their action will cause their death so how is that different than someone who takes enough medication to make severe chronic pain to manage the pain and yet, the side effect is that the respiratory system slows down to the point of no longer being able to support life. Is it wrong to not want to be in debilitating pain...is it some how more holy to suffer to the point of being unable to function?

To dump suicide in the same mold as murder is to show that you really do not understand what suicide is or what it is about.

Ariel Gavriel · Jun 7, 2016

fat wee robin said:
Paul says that ,but Jesus did not .He never mentions our bodies ,but often talks of the Spirit ;Not once does He mention Bodies ,so there is too much emphasis on bodies
by carnal men following Paul .

It's unusual that a believer can take only what Jesus says but not his followers. Jesus does mention the body on a number of occasions. In Matthew 10, he says ~ 27 “Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A christian commits suicide?

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