The 144,000

precepts

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Attributing motivation ... and being snarky ... absolutely.

Perhaps if you focused your comments on the subject matter. Just a thought ...
Try taking your own advice. You have yet to address the fact I presented.
 
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NightHawkeye

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Try taking your own advice. You have yet to address the fact I presented.
I'll be glad to discuss that "fact". Help me out, what fact was that which you want to discuss in detail.

Feel free to add your opinion/interpretation if you think that will help.
 
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precepts

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I'll be glad to discuss that "fact". Help me out, what fact was that which you want to discuss in detail.

Feel free to add your opinion/interpretation if you think that will help.
Your sudden amnesia is one factor, but calling the fact that two tribes are not listed in Rev 7 my opinion/interpretation is a new low.

Just another chapter in the book of "I'm Offended at the Truth Dodgology."
 
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NightHawkeye

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Your sudden amnesia is one factor, but calling the fact that two tribes are not listed in Rev 7 my opinion/interpretation is a new low.

Just another chapter in the book of "I'm Offended at the Truth Dodgology."
Again, there has been no argument about that FACT.

The issue is that you have done nothing to elaborate or expand on that matter ... despite having been repeatedly invited to do so. Have you no thoughts on the matter which you deem important enough to articulate?

So far, I'm the only one of us who has elaborated and expanded on the matter of the missing tribes.

Your turn .... I would recommend you provide additional information and coherent thoughts expanding on the subject matter ... rather than insult me for not responding as you wanted me to. Your choice.
 
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Bobgf

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Rev 7
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel
.​

Noting the 144,000 are said to be from all the tribes of Israel ... not merely Benjamin and Judah. Most of those tribes were scattered to whereabouts unknown.

Rev 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God
.​

These would seem to be the truth-tellers, in whose mouths "was found no guile".

Micah 5
And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver
.​

Again, end-times prophecy ... seemingly the very same 144,000 who are sealed and protected.

Hi NightHawkeye

It seems the 144,000 we see in Revelation 7:4-8 are not the same 144,000 we see in Revelation 14:1-5. The first group are said to be Israelites, whereas the second group appear to be Gentiles.


The tribes of Israel actually number fourteen since Jacob had twelve sons and adopted as his own two sons of Joseph - Manasseh and Ephraim (Genesis 48:5) In the tribal listings, there are always just twelve of the fourteen tribes listed. When Manasseh and Ephraim are included in the tribal list, then Joseph and Levi are excluded.

This is not the case with the 144,000 of Revelation 7:4-8. Here the tribal list excludes the tribes of Dan and Ephraim. I don't know why Dan was chosen to be excluded, but perhaps Ephraim was excluded because there seems to be a connection between Ephraim and the Gentiles of Revelation 14:1-5.

The word Ephraim means fruitful and these Gentiles are first fruits to God and the Lamb. Also, the descendants of Ephraim became a multitude of nations (Genesis a 48:19) and these Gentiles, who seem to represent the church, were called from among the nations.

These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb (Revelation 14:4)

Bob..
 
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Luke17:37

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Hi NightHawkeye

It seems the 144,000 we see in Revelation 7:4-8 are not the same 144,000 we see in Revelation 14:1-5. The first group are said to be Israelites, whereas the second group appear to be Gentiles.


The tribes of Israel actually number fourteen since Jacob had twelve sons and adopted as his own two sons of Joseph - Manasseh and Ephraim (Genesis 48:5) In the tribal listings, there are always just twelve of the fourteen tribes listed. When Manasseh and Ephraim are included in the tribal list, then Joseph and Levi are excluded.

This is not the case with the 144,000 of Revelation 7:4-8. Here the tribal list excludes the tribes of Dan and Ephraim. I don't know why Dan was chosen to be excluded, but perhaps Ephraim was excluded because there seems to be a connection between Ephraim and the Gentiles of Revelation 14:1-5.

The word Ephraim means fruitful and these Gentiles are first fruits to God and the Lamb. Also, the descendants of Ephraim became a multitude of nations (Genesis a 48:19) and these Gentiles, who seem to represent the church, were called from among the nations.

These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb (Revelation 14:4)

Bob..

Hi Bob. There's nothing to suggest that the 144,000 of Revelation 14 are Gentiles or are a different group of people from the ones in Revelation 7:1-8.

I am not sure why Ephraim and Dan are left out. Maybe it has something to do with the idolatry they succommed to at the last mention of them, but still I don't know. I noticed that, too, that they weren't listed. But Joseph, Ephraim's father, is listed, so perhaps that's really Ephraim. I don't know.
 
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precepts

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Again, there has been no argument about that FACT.

The issue is that you have done nothing to elaborate or expand on that matter ... despite having been repeatedly invited to do so. Have you no thoughts on the matter which you deem important enough to articulate?
As I recall, the last words we had on the subject was you saying the 2 missing tribes were explainable. Am I right?

So far, I'm the only one of us who has elaborated and expanded on the matter of the missing tribes.
When?

Your turn .... I would recommend you provide additional information and coherent thoughts expanding on the subject matter ... rather than insult me for not responding as you wanted me to. Your choice.
It's not all about you and your false accusations. I provided more than just the fact the 2 tribes were missing. Plus, the ball was in your court on explaining why.
 
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Bobgf

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Hi Bob. There's nothing to suggest that the 144,000 of Revelation 14 are Gentiles or are a different group of people from the ones in Revelation 7:1-8.

I am not sure why Ephraim and Dan are left out. Maybe it has something to do with the idolatry they succommed to at the last mention of them, but still I don't know. I noticed that, too, that they weren't listed. But Joseph, Ephraim's father, is listed, so perhaps that's really Ephraim. I don't know.
Hi Luke 17:37, nice talking with you.

I don't think much is needed to show that the two groups are different. It's stated that the first group are Israelites so all that's needed is to show that the second group are not Israelites.

It's stated that the second group were purchased from "among men". Isn't it safe to assume that "among men" means men from among the nations IOW Gentiles not Israelites?


I believe the first group of Revelation 7:4-8 are resurrected members of Israel Ezekiel 37:12-12

I believe the second group of Revelation 14:1-4 are members of the Church, not members of tribes of Israel. For we are neither Jew nor Greek, for all are one in Christ Jesus Galatians 3:28 Therefore, if these are members of the Church they are not members of tribes of Israel.


IMO the statement of Revelation 14:4 has all the earmarks of members of the Church
These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb

For example we know Jesus was a "first fruit" from the dead, 1 Corinthians 15:47 And these are first fruits to God and to the Lamb, so isn't that a tie in to the Church?

Bob..
 
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NightHawkeye

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Hi NightHawkeye

It seems the 144,000 we see in Revelation 7:4-8 are not the same 144,000 we see in Revelation 14:1-5. The first group are said to be Israelites, whereas the second group appear to be Gentiles.
Hi Bob,

Thank you very much for your reasoned response.

I tend to believe that there is no need for two distinct groups. Even the tribes of Revelation 7 are very much "gentiles", the seed of Israel, spread throughout mankind as detailed in the Micah 4 prophecy.

For that reason I view the 144,000 as a single group. They are sealed in Revelation 7 and the firstfruits before God in Revelation. I also see them as those who follow the "word of God" in Revelation 19 and those who are the priests of God and Christ in Revelation 20 during the millennium.
The tribes of Israel actually number fourteen since Jacob had twelve sons and adopted as his own two sons of Joseph - Manasseh and Ephraim (Genesis 48:5) In the tribal listings, there are always just twelve of the fourteen tribes listed. When Manasseh and Ephraim are included in the tribal list, then Joseph and Levi are excluded.

This is not the case with the 144,000 of Revelation 7:4-8. Here the tribal list excludes the tribes of Dan and Ephraim. I don't know why Dan was chosen to be excluded, but perhaps Ephraim was excluded because there seems to be a connection between Ephraim and the Gentiles of Revelation 14:1-5.
The exclusion of Daniel is the case I haven't heard a good explanation for either. The tribe listing in Revelation doesn't agree with the tribes listed in Ezekiel and neither are the traditional 12 tribes as they were divided up geographically.
The word Ephraim means fruitful and these Gentiles are first fruits to God and the Lamb. Also, the descendants of Ephraim became a multitude of nations (Genesis a 48:19) and these Gentiles, who seem to represent the church, were called from among the nations.

These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb (Revelation 14:4)

Bob..
Thanks again for your thoughts on the subject.
 
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Luke17:37

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Hi Luke 17:37, nice talking with you.
Likewise! Thanks for replying, Bob.

I don't think much is needed to show that the two groups are different. It's stated that the first group are Israelites so all that's needed is to show that the second group are not Israelites.
It doesn't say the second group are not Israelites.

It's stated that the second group were purchased from "among men". Isn't it safe to assume that "among men" means men from among the nations IOW Gentiles not Israelites?
No. My pastor is an Israelite and he's a devoted disciple of Christ. I know others, who, likewise are Israelites who are believers in Messiah Jesus just like we are.

Being purchased from among men just means they are saved. We are purchased from among men, too.

I believe the first group of Revelation 7:4-8 are resurrected members of Israel Ezekiel 37:12-12
I agree in that they are believers in Jesus who were formerly Israelites dead in their transgressions. But when Christ took away the veil of blindness to their hearts and gave them the gift of faith, they repented and asked Jesus, the Messiah, to be their Savior and Lord. Now the Lord is making them into new creations by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I believe the second group of Revelation 14:1-4 are members of the Church, not members of tribes of Israel. For we are neither Jew nor Greek, for all are one in Christ Jesus Galatians 3:28 Therefore, if these are members of the Church they are not members of tribes of Israel.
These aren't mutually exclusive. The Church is made up of Israelites and Gentiles. All are saved by Jesus the same way.

IMO the statement of Revelation 14:4 has all the earmarks of members of the Church
These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb

For example we know Jesus was a "first fruit" from the dead, 1 Corinthians 15:47 And these are first fruits to God and to the Lamb, so isn't that a tie in to the Church?

Bob..
Yes, these 144,000 are clearly part of the Church! But what doesn't follow is that they can't be Israelites.

Have you ever noticed how the people with the seal of God on their foreheads are mentioned in another place, in the Trumpet judgments?

Revelation 9:4 (Fifth Trumpet)
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

The seal of God was given to protect them when the plagues come down upon the earth. (It's a different seal than the one all Christians one all Christians have, which is to say it's different than being indwelled with the Holy Spirit.)

Revelation 12 doesn't refer to them conclusively, but check this out:

Revelation 12:13-17
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Because the woman in the wilderness is protected from being killed by the dragon for a duration of time, I think it might be referring the 144,000. These are certainly part of the Church, since they among those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Personally, this is how I interpret verse 17. I believe since Satan is not permitted to kill these specific Jewish believers ("the woman" refers to Mary, an Israelite, earlier in the passage, so I believe we are talking about Israelite believers in Jesus), he will go off to kill the rest to her offspring - the rest of the Church, both Israelite or Gentile. I don't for a second believe that only 144,000 Israelites are saved, or that the number is symbolic. There are more than 144,000 saved Israelites today. I believe God seals them as an act of grace because they have such pure faith in Messiah Jesus. Revelation 14 says of them, "They follow the Lamb wherever He goes," and, "in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God." This speaks to the purity of their faith. I think the 144,000 are the "creme de la creme" of the Israelite believers in Jesus. (Whenever I think of these, I think of my Israelite friend who has been saved since childhood. He is a soft-spoken but bold, intentional evangelist. He also comes across as very humble. I watched the Holy Spirit really begin change his life when he was in junior high, and what a joy it was to see! Sometimes I wonder if he will be among the 144,000 sealed.)

Many other passages are clear that Satan kills Christians in the Tribulation. However, he won't be permitted to kill them all. Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and others refer to elect (believers in Jesus) who survive the Tribulation and are supernaturally gathered when Jesus comes again.
 
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