Hi Luke 17:37, nice talking with you.
Likewise! Thanks for replying, Bob.
I don't think much is needed to show that the two groups are different. It's stated that the first group are Israelites so all that's needed is to show that the second group are not Israelites.
It doesn't say the second group are not Israelites.
It's stated that the second group were purchased from "among men". Isn't it safe to assume that "among men" means men from among the nations IOW Gentiles not Israelites?
No. My pastor is an Israelite and he's a devoted disciple of Christ. I know others, who, likewise are Israelites who are believers in Messiah Jesus just like we are.
Being purchased from among men just means they are saved. We are purchased from among men, too.
I believe the first group of Revelation 7:4-8 are resurrected members of Israel Ezekiel 37:12-12
I agree in that they are believers in Jesus who were formerly Israelites dead in their transgressions. But when Christ took away the veil of blindness to their hearts and gave them the gift of faith, they repented and asked Jesus, the Messiah, to be their Savior and Lord. Now the Lord is making them into new creations by the power of the Holy Spirit.
I believe the second group of Revelation 14:1-4 are members of the Church, not members of tribes of Israel. For we are neither Jew nor Greek, for all are one in Christ Jesus Galatians 3:28 Therefore, if these are members of the Church they are not members of tribes of Israel.
These aren't mutually exclusive. The Church is made up of Israelites and Gentiles. All are saved by Jesus the same way.
IMO the statement of Revelation 14:4 has all the earmarks of members of the Church
These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb
For example we know Jesus was a "first fruit" from the dead, 1 Corinthians 15:47 And these are first fruits to God and to the Lamb, so isn't that a tie in to the Church?
Bob..
Yes, these 144,000 are clearly part of the Church! But what doesn't follow is that they can't be Israelites.
Have you ever noticed how the people with the seal of God on their foreheads are mentioned in another place, in the Trumpet judgments?
Revelation 9:4 (Fifth Trumpet)
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
The seal of God was given to protect them when the plagues come down upon the earth. (It's a different seal than the one all Christians one all Christians have, which is to say it's different than being indwelled with the Holy Spirit.)
Revelation 12 doesn't refer to them conclusively, but check this out:
Revelation 12:13-17
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Because the woman in the wilderness is protected from being killed by the dragon for a duration of time, I think it might be referring the 144,000. These are certainly part of the Church, since they among those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Personally, this is how I interpret verse 17. I believe since Satan is not permitted to kill these specific Jewish believers ("the woman" refers to Mary, an Israelite, earlier in the passage, so I believe we are talking about Israelite believers in Jesus), he will go off to kill the rest to her offspring - the rest of the Church, both Israelite or Gentile. I don't for a second believe that only 144,000 Israelites are saved, or that the number is symbolic. There are more than 144,000 saved Israelites today. I believe God seals them as an act of grace because they have such pure faith in Messiah Jesus. Revelation 14 says of them, "They follow the Lamb wherever He goes," and, "in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God." This speaks to the purity of their faith. I think the 144,000 are the "creme de la creme" of the Israelite believers in Jesus. (Whenever I think of these, I think of my Israelite friend who has been saved since childhood. He is a soft-spoken but bold, intentional evangelist. He also comes across as very humble. I watched the Holy Spirit really begin change his life when he was in junior high, and what a joy it was to see! Sometimes I wonder if he will be among the 144,000 sealed.)
Many other passages are clear that Satan kills Christians in the Tribulation. However, he won't be permitted to kill them all. Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and others refer to elect (believers in Jesus) who survive the Tribulation and are supernaturally gathered when Jesus comes again.