Are all the passages claiming relationship to Messiah, true?

visionary

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****MODERATOR NOTE****

The following posts were split out from the original thread here,
this first post was not made by visionary, but by Moderator Lulav.
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Are all the passages claiming to be relating to Messiah in fact relating to him? Are some wishful thinking? Are there more than one meaning to certain verses? Such as a P'sht level and sod?


Not that they aren't true, but are they really in fact, referring to Messiah, or do some go too far?

The following posts were taken from a thread that was wishing to list all pertaining to Messiah but got a bit off track discussing this supposition.

Please continue the conversation here, keeping in mind the rules of this forum and the site-wide rules.

Thank You!

 
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Daniel Gregg

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I will start with the first one.
Genesis 3:15…..Seed of a woman ...Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:18-20


If anyone is thinking of using the JPS translation:

JPS Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.'

they shall = deliberate MISTRANSLATION
their heel = deliberate MISTRANSLATION
 
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gadar perets

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I never understood how those, out of context, bits of Scripture can be considered prophecies about Jesus .
Are you referring to the Psalms I posted or all the prophecies in this thread?
 
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gadar perets

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I refer to all of them posted, so far. However, if they work for you... great.
Let's look at Psalm 16:10 for example.

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Where is David now? In the grave. Did his dead body decompose (see corruption) in the grave? Yes. David was prophesying in this Psalm of the resurrection of Maschiach.

David also prophesied about Maschiach in Psalm 110:

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. YHWH said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 110:2 YHWH shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Psa 110:4 YHWH hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
David did not ascend into heaven to sit at YHWH's right hand. This is speaking of Davids future Lord (Maschiach). David was not made a priest after the order of Melchizedek, but Maschiach was.

The NT writings confirm that these were Messianic prophecies by quoting them as pertaining to Yeshua HaMaschiach.
 
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danny ski

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Let's look at Psalm 16:10 for example.

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Where is David now? In the grave. Did his dead body decompose (see corruption) in the grave? Yes. David was prophesying in this Psalm of the resurrection of Maschiach.

David also prophesied about Maschiach in Psalm 110:

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. YHWH said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 110:2 YHWH shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Psa 110:4 YHWH hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
David did not ascend into heaven to sit at YHWH's right hand. This is speaking of Davids future Lord (Maschiach). David was not made a priest after the order of Melchizedek, but Maschiach was.

The NT writings confirm that these were Messianic prophecies by quoting them as pertaining to Yeshua HaMaschiach.
Psalm 16 is not a prophecy- context rules apply in the Bible same like in any text.
Psalm 110- there are no capital letters in Hebrew language. The word "lord" in the first verse is Adoni not Adonai.
 
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gadar perets

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Psalm 16 is not a prophecy- context rules apply in the Bible same like in any text.
David is telling us about something that will occur in his future. That is a prophecy.

Psalm 110- there are no capital letters in Hebrew language. The word "lord" in the first verse is Adoni not Adonai.
I agree. YHWH said unto my adoni or my lord. YHWH is telling David's lord (one greater than David - Maschiach) to sit on His right hand in heaven.
 
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danny ski

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David is telling us about something that will occur in his future. That is a prophecy.


I agree. YHWH said unto my adoni or my lord. YHWH is telling David's lord (one greater than David - Maschiach) to sit on His right hand in heaven.
Psalm 16 is a prayer of one man to his Gd. It expresses love and gratitude and hope. It is not a messianic prophecy anymore than "lead us not into temptation" in the Lord's Prayer.The adoni in 110 is David as it is a Psalm about David- he wrote Psalms for the following generations to sing, as well. If it was not so and he meant god incarnate, he would not use adoni.
 
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gadar perets

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Psalm 16 is a prayer of one man to his Gd. It expresses love and gratitude and hope. It is not a messianic prophecy anymore than "lead us not into temptation" in the Lord's Prayer.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (the grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Do you agree that this translation from the KJV is correct? If so, was David wrong about his body not seeing corruption/decay/decomposition? Or did the Almighty resurrect him before decay set in?

The adoni in 110 is David as it is a Psalm about David- he wrote Psalms for the following generations to sing, as well. If it was not so and he meant god incarnate, he would not use adoni.

YHWH said unto my adoni, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.​

Do you agree that this translation from the KJV is correct? If so, and we both agree that David wrote it, then when he says, "my adoni", he is not saying that he is that adoni. If I say, "my father", that means I am not that father.

So I understand David to be recording a future conversation between YHWH and his future adoni, Maschiach. The conversation would have taken place after Yeshua HaMaschiach's resurrection. YHWH would call him into heaven to sit at His right hand. That is where Yeshua is now as he waits YHWH's command to return to sit on the throne of David ruling over the Kingdom of YHWH on earth.
 
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danny ski

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Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (the grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Do you agree that this translation from the KJV is correct? If so, was David wrong about his body not seeing corruption/decay/decomposition? Or did the Almighty resurrect him before decay set in?



YHWH said unto my adoni, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.​

Do you agree that this translation from the KJV is correct? If so, and we both agree that David wrote it, then when he says, "my adoni", he is not saying that he is that adoni. If I say, "my father", that means I am not that father.

Also, I do NOT believe Yeshua is God incarnate. I do believe he is the promised Maschiach. So I understand David to be recording a future conversation between YHWH and his future adoni, Maschiach. The conversation would have taken place after Yeshua HaMaschiach's resurrection. YHWH would call him into heaven to sit at His right hand. That is where Yeshua is now as he waits YHWH's command to return to sit on the throne of David ruling over the Kingdom of YHWH on earth.
I don't want to derail this thread any more, my apologies.
Psalm 16- a) bad translation, b) look up context in a dictionary.
Psalm 110 David wrote a song to be sang even after he was gone. He included himself in it. And if David had another Lord beside his Gd, where is he in the story of David? Why is David being so secretive about his other " Lord"?
I apologise, again. I'm out.
 
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yonah_mishael

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If anyone is thinking of using the JPS translation:

JPS Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.'

they shall = deliberate MISTRANSLATION
their heel = deliberate MISTRANSLATION

Deliberate? "Seed" is a collective noun. It's like saying "offspring" or similar to saying "class."

The teacher released the class for recess. They played with their toys on the playground.​

Yes, "class" is singular. It's not "classes." Indeed. But "they" and "their" is not a "deliberate" maligning of the verse. The same is true here. It's talking about how the woman's children will hate snakes - that snakes will bite at their legs (as they do) and humans will try to take the head off of snakes (as they do). There is nothing misleading here except the way that you understand it to mean something other than what it is.
 
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yonah_mishael

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Orthodox Judaism interrupts Isaiah 9:5(6)-6(7) to refer to a man born naturally (not supernaturally from a virgin) who could make his appearance known at anytime in the future. Isaiah 9:5 (6) makes no mention of the Lord's "salvation" (Yeshua).

Orthodoxy interprets this passage as referring to a baby born just after the prophecy was delivered. It is not interpreted to refer to anyone at any future time. It is interpreted to refer to something that happened within the lifetime of Ahaz.
 
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gadar perets

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Orthodoxy interprets this passage as referring to a baby born just after the prophecy was delivered. It is not interpreted to refer to anyone at any future time. It is interpreted to refer to something that happened within the lifetime of Ahaz.
Who is the "baby" (son) that is to sit upon the throne of David? And how does whoever that king is fit the description of his name?

Isa 9:6 (9:5) For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; JPS​
 
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yonah_mishael

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Who is the "baby" (son) that is to sit upon the throne of David? And how does whoever that king is fit the description of his name?

Isa 9:6 (9:5) For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; JPS​
I was talking about Isaiah 7, not Isaiah 9. These are two different passages. Chapter 7 is an unnamed child, except that he was called Immanuel and perhaps Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. Chapter 9 is apparently about Hezekiah.
 
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gadar perets

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I was talking about Isaiah 7, not Isaiah 9. These are two different passages. Chapter 7 is an unnamed child, except that he was called Immanuel and perhaps Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. Chapter 9 is apparently about Hezekiah.
AbbaLove wrote about Isa 9:5-6. You replied with, "Orthodoxy interprets this passage as referring to a baby born just after the prophecy was delivered." I understood "this passage" to refer to Isa 9:5-6.

How can Isa 9:6 refer to Hezekiah if he was already born before the prophecy was given?
 
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yonah_mishael

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AbbaLove wrote about Isa 9:5-6. You replied with, "Orthodoxy interprets this passage as referring to a baby born just after the prophecy was delivered." I understood "this passage" to refer to Isa 9:5-6.

How can Isa 9:6 refer to Hezekiah if he was already born before the prophecy was given?

You're absolutely right about the reference. I don't know what made me think he was writing about chapter 7. I think it was the placing of the seven in parentheses or something that made me think he was talking first about Isaiah 7 and then about Isaiah 9, as if they were talking about the same person. Sorry. Mea culpa.

Isaiah 9 is written as a birth announcement regarding Hezekiah. It even uses the past tense regarding his birth (כִּֽי־יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־לָ֗נוּ בֵּ֚ן נִתַּן־לָ֔נוּ "a child was born to us, a son was given to us" - the future would have been יִוָּלֵד and יִנָּתֵן, respectively). Why should it not be speaking about the child just born who would become the king of Judah (וַתְּהִ֥י הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־שִׁכְמ֑וֹ "and the governance is [has become] upon his shoulders" - "and the responsibility for governing is his")? In fact, even the "and his name will be called" is actually in the past tense (וַיִּקְרָ֨א for the past instead of וְקָרָא for the future). The child had already been named in this text. I don't see the problem there.
 
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yonah_mishael

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Who is the "baby" (son) that is to sit upon the throne of David? And how does whoever that king is fit the description of his name?

The name that he would receive actually represents parts of Hezekiah's life:

"A wonderful counselor [is] the Mighty God" - That he would seek the counsel of God and trust in his oracles.
"Father of perpetuity" - That God extended his life by fifteen years and gave him a full life.
"Peaceful ruler" - Since Jerusalem saw peace in his day and did not fall to the Assyrians as the people had feared.


I don't see the problem here either.
 
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