Racial identity

Dave-W · May 26, 2016

This makes as much sense as those people who want to identify as some other species. I say let them. If they want to identify as a wolf, cut them loose in the woods to find a wolf pack to join. If they want to identify as a lion or tiger, put them in that cage in the zoo. If that person can convince the wolf pack or the lions that they are not human, more power to them.

In the same sense, if the OP can convince radical black groups, whether inner city gangs, the New Black Panthers or the BLM group that he is black, sobeit.

AriseMyDarling · May 26, 2016

I agree with both Thomas and Jerome depending on the individual and how strongly they felt they were another race.

SkyWriting · May 26, 2016

samir said:
Background
Ever since I was a kid, I loved black people and wished I were black. After hearing about Rachel Dolezal, a woman who was born white but identifies as black, I am thinking about identifying as black and changing my skin color to match that identity. What do you think about the advice I was given?

Family
My family said I should see a psychiatrist to correct my thinking and get me to "stop acting black."

Jerome
Jerome said he would accept my racial identity and support me getting treatment to change my skin color to match that identity.

Thomas
Thomas said since God created my brain and body, I should accept both and change neither. Any apparent conflict is an aspect of diversity among members of the same race. Instead of changing my skin color, it may be better to help others understand that it’s okay to have traits more common among people of other races. Helping society accept those who are different will help everyone who is unique avoid depression and suicide that often occurs in those who feel rejected.

Follow the thoughts below:

samir · May 26, 2016

Quid est Veritas? said:
Race is quite arbitrary.

I am from South Africa and we have quite a few racial problems ourselves.

I posted this before for a quick summary.
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/apartheid-versus-us-segregation.7943227/

Race was and is arbitrarily assigned, with people going on appearance instead of any actual genetics.

I myself appear white with blonde hair and blue eyes, but I have Chinese, Indonesian, Tamil, Bengali, Khoi, Malagasy, Angolan and Arabic blood on top of my majority western European genome (from about 300 years ago when my ancestors married their slaves and freedwoman).

I am as much a descendant of these non-whites as any of my white ancestors.

If you wish to apply a fairly inaccurate description to yourself, go ahead. It changes nothing to your ancestry, genetic haplogroups or person. It is however a cultural marker, but culture can be learnt and embraced or shunned. It just depends how willing the others who share this label view your 'conversion' to their culture. Some cultural groups one needs to be born into, unfortunately.

Excellent points. Maybe I should have said skin color instead of race though but my point is that people sometimes feel more like members of another category (whether genetic or arbitrary it does not matter) and may want to alter their body to fit in.

Apartheid is a good example. If you had much more in common with South Africans with black skin and wanted to move into their communities, have black friends, and marry a black woman you probably would have felt very out of place and have trouble being accepted just like blacks weren't accepted by whites in the South not that long ago. Altering your skin color enough to pass for black would have changed that.

This differs from gender where there is a clear marker differentiating one from the other, if the y chromosome is present than it is a male genotype, the rest female.

Yes, but even when the categories are clearly defined there is still the same issue when a person thinks and acts more like people of another category. I can't comment on gender because I don't know much about gender issues. I prefer to focus on the big picture which is how should we treat unique individuals who are currently rejected by society such as those who feel much more like someone in another category, regardless of whether that category is arbitrary or biologically defined.

The "conservative" approach discounts their feelings and makes them feel rejected for not thinking and acting like everyone else in that category which can lead to depression and suicide. The "liberal" approach can lead to harm due to complications from surgery, cause those who are different to put their hope in it and if it's not available or they can't afford it can also lead to depression and suicide.

I believe the third approach of accepting everyone for who they are even if they are different will help them feel loved and accepted without feeling the need to risk the consequences of altering their bodies to fit in. I believe if Christians love and accept people for who they are instead of judging them then they will be more open to accepting Christ.

aiki · May 26, 2016

samir said:
Background
Ever since I was a kid, I loved black people and wished I were black. After hearing about Rachel Dolezal, a woman who was born white but identifies as black, I am thinking about identifying as black and changing my skin color to match that identity. What do you think about the advice I was given?

Family
My family said I should see a psychiatrist to correct my thinking and get me to "stop acting black."

Jerome
Jerome said he would accept my racial identity and support me getting treatment to change my skin color to match that identity.

Thomas
Thomas said since God created my brain and body, I should accept both and change neither. Any apparent conflict is an aspect of diversity among members of the same race. Instead of changing my skin color, it may be better to help others understand that it’s okay to have traits more common among people of other races. Helping society accept those who are different will help everyone who is unique avoid depression and suicide that often occurs in those who feel rejected.

Appreciating a culture and wanting to adopt aspects of it is perfectly fine. If you want to dye your hair black and get an afro and wear the colorful garb of many African cultures, knock yourself out. Changing the color of your skin, though, doesn't make you any more black or African than wearing a bear skin coat makes you a bear. You aren't a thing simply because you identify strongly with it and modify yourself accordingly. I read an article about a woman who has surgically altered herself to look like a cat. She has a cleft upper lip, sharpened teeth, clipped ears and so on. But is she now a cat? Of course not. She isn't really anywhere close. No matter how much she may identify with a cat, and behave like one, and deform herself to look like a cat, she will never be a cat. It is a kind of madness, I think, to allow one's feelings about one's identity to provoke such bizarre and self-injurious behaviour and for the society in which such a person lives to encourage it.

Selah.

FireDragon76 · May 26, 2016

Since racial distinctions are so arbitrary, I don't see how this is really a problem.

AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2 · May 29, 2016

samir said:
Background
Ever since I was a kid, I loved black people and wished I were black. After hearing about Rachel Dolezal, a woman who was born white but identifies as black, I am thinking about identifying as black and changing my skin color to match that identity. What do you think about the advice I was given?

Family
My family said I should see a psychiatrist to correct my thinking and get me to "stop acting black."

Jerome
Jerome said he would accept my racial identity and support me getting treatment to change my skin color to match that identity.

Thomas
Thomas said since God created my brain and body, I should accept both and change neither. Any apparent conflict is an aspect of diversity among members of the same race. Instead of changing my skin color, it may be better to help others understand that it’s okay to have traits more common among people of other races. Helping society accept those who are different will help everyone who is unique avoid depression and suicide that often occurs in those who feel rejected.

Interesting..... things that me me go hmmmm hmm hmm ...

Cearbhall · Jun 1, 2016

Mountain_Girl406 said:
Or perhaps you don't really mean race, but gender, and think that it's a good analog.

No, really?! I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you! ^_^

samir said:
I see what you're saying. I don't know much about gender issues so I can't comment about any similarities or differences.

Oop, nevermind. Seems like this is the one case where it's genuinely about race.

yasic · Jun 2, 2016

samir said:
Background
Ever since I was a kid, I loved black people and wished I were black. After hearing about Rachel Dolezal, a woman who was born white but identifies as black, I am thinking about identifying as black and changing my skin color to match that identity. What do you think about the advice I was given?

Family
My family said I should see a psychiatrist to correct my thinking and get me to "stop acting black."

Jerome
Jerome said he would accept my racial identity and support me getting treatment to change my skin color to match that identity.

Thomas
Thomas said since God created my brain and body, I should accept both and change neither. Any apparent conflict is an aspect of diversity among members of the same race. Instead of changing my skin color, it may be better to help others understand that it’s okay to have traits more common among people of other races. Helping society accept those who are different will help everyone who is unique avoid depression and suicide that often occurs in those who feel rejected.

I think the law isn't doing enough to combat the clear separation of black people and white people. We must take a stand and let people know 'black is black and white is white'. I know liberals believe in 'civil unions' for interracial couples, but we must support God's plan of keeping the races separate and completely outlaw any kind of interracial union, be it called marriage or civil union!

samir · Jun 2, 2016

Cearbhall said:
No, really?! I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!

Oop, nevermind. Seems like this is the one case where it's genuinely about race.

Actually, my post isn't about race or gender. It's about the general principal of loving our neighbor by accepting those God has created instead of judging them. I believe if we accept others for who they are instead of judging then people who don't fit in now wouldn't feel the need to alter their bodies to fit in.

The fact is there are many people in American who don't fit in as Americans in general reject anyone who is different than the majority (it goes far beyond race and gender). Many of these people are chronically depressed and commit suicide. Everyone who judges them is culpable in their death but our main concern should be to love them because God loves them.

Some people just have less common personalities or ways of thinking. Look at all those school shootings. In every case the shooters were rejected by others and almost certainly wouldn't have shot up the school if they felt loved and accepted. If you study solitary confinement in prison you'll see the disastrous effects of loneliness which helps explain school shootings and the increasing levels of depression and suicide in America by those who suffer loneliness due to rejection for being different.

Dave-W · Jun 2, 2016

samir said:
Look at all those school shootings. In every case the shooters were rejected by others and almost certainly wouldn't have shot up the school if they felt loved and accepted.

Hmmmm....

I was beaten up regularly in grade school. I was rather unpopular in jr high and high school as well; and never once had any thought of doing something like that.

Cute Tink · Jun 2, 2016

samir said:
Actually, my post isn't about race or gender. It's about the general principal of loving our neighbor by accepting those God has created instead of judging them. I believe if we accept others for who they are instead of judging then people who don't fit in now wouldn't feel the need to alter their bodies to fit in.

While that's a nice thought, I think you might be oversimplifying the reasons why some people alter their bodies by assuming it necessarily has to do with fitting in.

samir · Jun 2, 2016

Cute Tink said:
While that's a nice thought, I think you might be oversimplifying the reasons why some people alter their bodies by assuming it necessarily has to do with fitting in.

All I know for sure is there are many people who are depressed and commit suicide because they are rejected by society for being different. That's why I think we need to tolerate and love everyone even if they are a little odd.

Cute Tink · Jun 2, 2016

samir said:
All I know for sure is there are many people who are depressed and commit suicide because they are rejected by society for being different. That's why I think we need to tolerate and love everyone even if they are a little odd.

I totally agree. My disagreement wasn't over that part, just the part of it being about "fitting in". Not everyone wants to necessarily fit in to society by changing their bodies so much as feeling comfortable within themselves.

Society should worry less about people fitting in, though.

samir · Jun 2, 2016

Cute Tink said:
I totally agree. My disagreement wasn't over that part, just the part of it being about "fitting in". Not everyone wants to necessarily fit in to society by changing their bodies so much as feeling comfortable within themselves.

Society should worry less about people fitting in, though.

I understand and agree but I think part of the reason some people may not feel comfortable is because of how they are treated by others. For example, I knew a man with feminine traits and feminine interests and he was ridiculed and called a sissy. If I later learned he wasn't comfortable with his body, I'd say the way he was treated probably had something to do with it.

Cute Tink · Jun 2, 2016

samir said:
I understand and agree but I think part of the reason some people may not feel comfortable is because of how they are treated by others. For example, I knew a man with feminine traits and feminine interests and he was ridiculed and called a sissy. If I later learned he wasn't comfortable with his body, I'd say the way he was treated probably had something to do with it.

That implies a cause-effect relationship that hasn't been demonstrated, as far as I know. Generally what I've seen talked about is that the person feels shame for their differences, but I've never seen someone connect something like dysphoria being caused by such treatment. From the stories I've heard, the actual discomfort within the individual was there before, just not fully expressed because of the treatment over what has been expressed (in your example, the femininity resulted in rejection, so why let on that it's even more pronounced than they know).

I know that many people are uncomfortable in their lives because they are treated poorly by others, particularly when those people have or had a close relationship with the individual (family, for example). As you've noted, it can lead to very serious depression issues and that has been found in a study, somewhat dramatically.

samir · Jun 2, 2016

Cute Tink said:
That implies a cause-effect relationship that hasn't been demonstrated, as far as I know. Generally what I've seen talked about is that the person feels shame for their differences, but I've never seen someone connect something like dysphoria being caused by such treatment. From the stories I've heard, the actual discomfort within the individual was there before, just not fully expressed because of the treatment over what has been expressed (in your example, the femininity resulted in rejection, so why let on that it's even more pronounced than they know).

I know that many people are uncomfortable in their lives because they are treated poorly by others, particularly when those people have or had a close relationship with the individual (family, for example). As you've noted, it can lead to very serious depression issues and that has been found in a study, somewhat dramatically.

If the man I mentioned grew up and lived in a culture where most men shared those traits and interests considered feminine in America I think he would probably feel more comfortable with his body. Regardless of what's been demonstrated, I prefer to focus on the big picture and promote love and tolerance for everyone because I think those with gender and racial issues are only a small subset of those who are different.

Cute Tink · Jun 3, 2016

samir said:
Regardless of what's been demonstrated, I prefer to focus on the big picture and promote love and tolerance for everyone because I think those with gender and racial issues are only a small subset of those who are different.

We definitely agree on this part.

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