SALVATION: Old Testament vs New Testament

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,603
65
✟70,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Let's read it in context, shall we?

Isaiah 28
14 Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scornful men, who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
15 Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, it will not come to us, for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood we have hidden ourselves.”
16 Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; whoever believes will not act hastily.
17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, and righteousness the plummet; the hail will sweep away the refuge of lies,
And the waters will overflow the hiding place.
18 Your covenant with death will be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol will not stand;

This is not a covenant with God! Scornful men made this covenant with death and Sheol. These men are liars who have hidden themselves from the overflowing scourge when it passes through.

Notice God says YOUR COVENANT WITH DEATH will be annulled, YOUR agreement WITH Sheol will not stand. This DOES NOT SAY a covenant OF death, and God does not say MY covenant!

If you say the old covenant is a covenant of death, then you have to say it is an agreement with Sheol also.

Do you know what a covenant is and its conditions and requirements?
Yep, under the old covenant an official law of righteousness was in place.
The problem is you see, to be TRULY righteous before God under the law requires perfect obedience of it ( gal3::10&11, james2:10, rom4:14&15)

Many who go to church believe there is in effect a pass mark of obedience to make you righteous before God under the law, but they cannot tell you what that pass mark is
Pure folly such thinking of course, but so many, in reality want to earn their way to heaven by their own personal goodness
And as you know, according to Jesus, when he spoke to Nicodemus. No one but he had ever entered heaven( john3:13)

So of course the old covenant was an agreement with sheol, where do you think those went who died under that covenant went when they left this earth?

But the covenant of death was shortly to be annulled you see, or we can say made obselete
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

EmSw

White Horse Rider
Apr 26, 2014
6,434
718
✟66,544.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yep, under the old covenant an official law of righteousness was in place.
The problem is you see, to be TRULY righteous before God under the law requires perfect obedience of it ( gal3::10&11, james2:10, rom4:14&15)

Many who go to church believe there is a pass mark of obedience to make you righteous before God under the law, but they cannot tell you what that pass mark is
Pure folly such thinking of course, but so many, in reality want to earn their way to heaven by their own personal goodness
And as you know, according to Jesus, when he spoke to Nicodemus. No one but he had ever entered heaven( john3:13)

But the covenant of death was shortly to be annulled you see

As I stated above, the covenant WITH death was not God's covenant WITH man. It was man's covenant he made with death by scornful actions and lying. Why keep inserting OF? By man sinning, he makes a covenant WITH death, and an agreement WITH Sheol.

How does a covenant work? What are its conditions and requirements?

Let's see what Jesus said about doing good.

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have DONE GOOD, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


Oh yes, even Paul agreed with this.

Romans 2
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient CONTINUANCE IN DOING GOOD seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace TO EVERYONE WHO WORKS WHAT IS GOOD, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


Only those who do good will come forth to the resurrection of life and be given eternal life, glory, honor, and peace. Maybe some will come up with another way to come forth to the resurrection of life and be given eternal life; however, I don't think they get very far.
 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,603
65
✟70,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
As I stated above, the covenant WITH death was not God's covenant WITH man. It was man's covenant he made with death by scornful actions and lying. Why keep inserting OF? By man sinning, he makes a covenant WITH death, and an agreement WITH Sheol.

How does a covenant work? What are its conditions and requirements?

Let's see what Jesus said about doing good.

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have DONE GOOD, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


Oh yes, even Paul agreed with this.

Romans 2
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient CONTINUANCE IN DOING GOOD seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace TO EVERYONE WHO WORKS WHAT IS GOOD, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


Only those who do good will come forth to the resurrection of life and be given eternal life, glory, honor, and peace. Maybe some will come up with another way to come forth to the resurrection of life and be given eternal life; however, I don't think they get very far.
You are missing the point:

Do not bring your servant into judgement, for NO ONE living is ( truly) righteous before you. Psalms143:2
The pass Mark to be truly righteous under the law is out of mans reach, for it is perfection. Hence:

No one has ever entered heaven except the one who is from heaven, the son of man. John3:13

The old covenant was an agreement therefore with Sheol.
When you read romans ch2, do not stop there. In chapter three Paul concludes, from what he has previously stated:

What shall we conclude then( concerning what Paul has previously been writing to the romans) Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and gentiles alike are all under sin.
As it I written:
There is NO ONE ( truly) righteous not even one
Rom 3:9&10

Paul agrees with King David!
 
Upvote 0

Arsenios

Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery,
Supporter
Dec 25, 2015
2,827
982
Washington
✟151,120.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
You have not rebutted my beliefs that the Holy Spirit DOES NOT reside in the unsaved,

It is not a matter of abidance of the Holy Spirit...
The Holy Spirit abided with Moses and all the OT Saints...
It is a matter of Hypostatic Union...
The SEAL of the Holy Spirit is the JOINING of Him to our Person making us a New Creation that has now a divine element by which we are no longer merely human, but partly divine...

and appear to agree a person can be baptised in water but remain in an unsaved state.

Salvation is the union of man and God...

You disagree, thinking it is the abiding of the Holy Spirit with man...

Two very different understandings...

Could it be, is it possible that we have agreement on ONE issue?????

Without soteriological accord, it is hard...

Do we actually agree therefore the definition of a Christian is someone in whom the Holy Spirit resides.

No - A Christian is one with whom the Holy Spirit is conjoined...

Even though, after a fashion, any believer in Christ is a Christian... Even prior to conjoining...

Peter said the proof God had accepted people was their receiving the holy spirit.
And Paul said if we fo not have the spirit of Christ we cannot belong to Christ.
Are you joining with me, Paul and Peter on this issue?

If I agree, we still have opposed understandings of what "receiving the Holy Spirit" means...

Are we ALL as one, singing from the same hymn sheet so to speak?
Surely not!

There you have it! Our Hymnal is the Psalter in the 8 Byzantine Tones...

Arsenios
 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,603
65
✟70,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The christian is called to be humble, and accept he cannot be good enough for God/ righteous under the law.
Then, with a grateful heart he seeks to serve in love and gratitude for a free salvation, he does not seek to work / serve with a view it will better enable him to enter heaven.
The works God desires are done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation
 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,603
65
✟70,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It is not a matter of abidance of the Holy Spirit...
The Holy Spirit abided with Moses and all the OT Saints...
It is a matter of Hypostatic Union...
The SEAL of the Holy Spirit is the JOINING of Him to our Person making us a New Creation that has now a divine element by which we are no longer merely human, but partly divine...



Salvation is the union of man and God...

You disagree, thinking it is the abiding of the Holy Spirit with man...

Two very different understandings...



Without soteriological accord, it is hard...



No - A Christian is one with whom the Holy Spirit is conjoined...

Even though, after a fashion, any believer in Christ is a Christian... Even prior to conjoining...



If I agree, we still have opposed understandings of what "receiving the Holy Spirit" means...



There you have it! Our Hymnal is the Psalter in the 8 Byzantine Tones...

Arsenios
You look at it from an intellectual/ theological point of view my friend.
And your belief, under the new covenant is not backed up by scripture, whereas, as I keep telling you, I do have the plain scripture.
Visitations of the holy spirit make perfect sense under the old covenant, but not the new
 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,603
65
✟70,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What???

Okay, I think I've heard enough of your beliefs.
What???

Okay, I think I've heard enough of your beliefs.
Its quite simple. They didn't enter heaven when they died under the old covenant, according to Jesus words to nicodemus.
Therefore where did they go?
Sheol?
Therefore, the old covenant was an agreement with sheol
 
Upvote 0

Ariel Gavriel

Active Member
Apr 4, 2011
102
23
✟3,243.00
Country
Israel
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
God passed over the sins of the people under the O/T covenant through a high priest, an appointed representative for the people in matters relating to God and he who would offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. In the N/T the bible says ~ And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrews 15 isn't that awesome! :amen:
 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,603
65
✟70,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
God passed over the sins of the people under the O/T covenant through a high priest, an appointed representative for the people in matters relating to God and he who would offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. In the N/T the bible says ~ And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrews 15 isn't that awesome! :amen:
Yes it is awesome and very true. Thank you

It would also be awesome if there was a Hebrews ch15. In my bible there are only 13 chapters
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

EmSw

White Horse Rider
Apr 26, 2014
6,434
718
✟66,544.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Its quite simple. They didn't enter heaven when they died under the old covenant, according to Jesus words to nicodemus.
Therefore where did they go?
Sheol?
Therefore, the old covenant was an agreement with sheol

Job 17:13
“If I look for Sheol as my home, I make my bed in the darkness;

Job 24:19
“Drought and heat consume the snow waters, so does Sheol those who have sinned.

Job 33:18
He keeps back his soul from the pit, And his life from passing over into Sheol.

Psalm 9:17
The wicked will return to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God.

Psalm 49:14
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death shall be their shepherd; And the upright shall rule over them in the morning, And their form shall be for Sheol to consume So that they have no habitation.

Psalm 49:15
But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.

Psalm 55:15
Let death come deceitfully upon them; Let them go down alive to Sheol, For evil is in their dwelling, in their midst.

Psalm 86:13
For Your lovingkindness toward me is great, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.

Psalm 89:48
What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah.

Psalm 116:3
The cords of death encompassed me And the terrors of Sheol came upon me; I found distress and sorrow.

Proverbs 7:27
Her house is the way to Sheol, Descending to the chambers of death.

Proverbs 15:24
The path of life leads upward for the wise That he may keep away from Sheol below.

Isaiah 14:15
“Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.





 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,603
65
✟70,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Job 17:13
“If I look for Sheol as my home, I make my bed in the darkness;

Job 24:19
“Drought and heat consume the snow waters, so does Sheol those who have sinned.

Job 33:18
He keeps back his soul from the pit, And his life from passing over into Sheol.

Psalm 9:17
The wicked will return to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God.

Psalm 49:14
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death shall be their shepherd; And the upright shall rule over them in the morning, And their form shall be for Sheol to consume So that they have no habitation.

Psalm 49:15
But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.

Psalm 55:15
Let death come deceitfully upon them; Let them go down alive to Sheol, For evil is in their dwelling, in their midst.

Psalm 86:13
For Your lovingkindness toward me is great, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.

Psalm 89:48
What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah.

Psalm 116:3
The cords of death encompassed me And the terrors of Sheol came upon me; I found distress and sorrow.

Proverbs 7:27
Her house is the way to Sheol, Descending to the chambers of death.

Proverbs 15:24
The path of life leads upward for the wise That he may keep away from Sheol below.

Isaiah 14:15
“Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.





But when will the believer be raised from the grave?

As you like to stick with Jesus words let us do so:

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, BUT RAISE THEM UP AT THE LAST DAY
For my fathers will is that everyone who looks to the son and believes I him shall have eternal life, AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY
John 6:39&40

No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him, AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY
Verse44

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY
Verse54



NO ONE has ever entered heaven, except the one who came from heaven, the son of man
John 3:13

I could quote Paul for confirmation, but you believe he is untrustworthy, as in your view he contradicted christ( if we assume he wrote hebrews)

Should a christian contradict Christ?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

EmSw

White Horse Rider
Apr 26, 2014
6,434
718
✟66,544.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
But when will the believer be raised from the grave?

As you like to stick with Jesus words let us do so:

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, BUT RAISE THEM UP AT THE LAST DAY
For my fathers will is that everyone who looks to the son and believes I him shall have eternal life, AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY
John 6:39&40

No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him, AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY
Verse44

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY
Verse54

NO ONE has ever entered heaven, except the one who came from heaven, the son of man
John 3:13

I could quote Paul for confirmation, but you believe he is untrustworthy, as in your view he contradicted christ( if we assume he wrote hebrews)

Should a christian contradict Christ?

When is a man's last day?

How could the thief on the cross be with Jesus, unless he be raised?

Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “truly I say to you, TODAY you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Do you believe the graves are full of living people or lifeless bodies?

Oh! Don't you like this passage?

Proverbs 15:24
The path of life leads upward for the wise that he may keep away from Sheol below.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,603
65
✟70,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
When is a man's last day?

How could the thief on the cross be with Jesus, unless he be raised?

Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “truly I say to you, TODAY you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Do you believe the graves are full of living people or lifeless bodies?

Oh! Don't you like this passage?

Proverbs 15:24
The path of life leads upward for the wise that he may keep away from Sheol below.
So to you, when Jesus states he will raise the believer up on the last day, he means when the individual believer dies, that is the last day Jesus is referring to? Unbelievable!


Where was the thief with Jesus when they died at Calvary? Not heaven, that's for sure.

Jesus told the disciples he would be in the heart of the earth, and on the third day be raised to life. So though Christ stated he would be raised on the third day, you think the thief was immediately raised when he died!
He also told Mary once he had been raised to life not to touch him, for he had not yet returned to the father in Heaven.
When Jesus died at Calvary he went to proclaim the gospel to those who had previously died (1 peter4:6)



The truth is, you only want to accept what Jesus says when it agrees .with your personal beliefs, or churches beliefs. You are happy to contradict Christ if his statements disagree with your beliefs.

And of course Paul confirms Jesus repeated statements that he will raise the believer up on the last day in 1cor15:20-23& 1thes4:13-17. The dead I Christ( or asleep in Christ) will be raised to life.

The last day, is the last day of this present earth, for the first earth and the first heaven will pass away, to be replaced by a new heaven and a new earth rev21:1

Anyway thank you for confirming you take no notice of what Jesus plainly states I he disagrees with your personal views

And yet, you claim the writer of Hebrews contradicts Christ
Hmmmm
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

EmSw

White Horse Rider
Apr 26, 2014
6,434
718
✟66,544.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So to you, when Jesus states he will raise the believer up on the last day, he means when the individual believer dies? Unbelievable!


Where was the thief with Jesus when they died at Calvary? Not heaven, that's for sure.

Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12:4
was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

Paradise is not sheol, nor is it in sheol. The tree of life is in Paradise. Notice that little word 'TODAY' in Luke, not three days.

Jesus told the disciples he would be in the heart of the earth, and on the third day be raised to life. So though Christ stated he would be raised on the third day, you think the theif was immediately raised when he died!
He also told Mary once he had been raised to life not to touch him, for he had not yet returned to the father in Heaven.
When Jesus died at Calvary he went to proclaim the gospel to those who had previously died under the old covenant(1 peter4:6)

Paradise is not in the heart of the earth.

The truth is, you only want to accept what Jesus says when it agrees .with your personal beliefs, or churches beliefs. You are happy to contradict Christ if his statements disagree with your beliefs.

And of course Paul confirms Jesus repeated statements that he will raise the believer up on the last day in 1cor15:20-23& 1thes4:13-17. The dead I Christ( or asleep in Christ) will be raised to life.

The last day, is the last day of this present earth, for the first earth and the first heaven will pass away, to be replaced by a new heaven and a new earth rev21:1

Where will you go when you die? Will you be inside the casket waiting? What is physical death?

Anyway thank you for confirming you take no notice of what Jesus plainly states I he disagrees with your personal views

And yet, you claim the writer of Hebrews contradicts Christ
Hmmmm

You still haven't commented on this passage -

Proverbs 15:24
The path of life leads upward for the wise that he may keep away from Sheol below.
 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,603
65
✟70,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12:4
was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

Paradise is not sheol, nor is it in sheol. The tree of life is in Paradise. Notice that little word 'TODAY' in Luke, not three days.



Paradise is not in the heart of the earth.



Where will you go when you die? Will you be inside the casket waiting? What is physical death?



You still haven't commented on this passage -

Proverbs 15:24
The path of life leads upward for the wise that he may keep away from Sheol below.
Its a cast iron fact that when Jesus said to the thief:

Today you will be with me in paradise

he DID NOT mean heaven as has been proved from the words of Jesus himself.
Also from the words of Peter.

When I die I will await the resurrection of the dead( or I am asleep in Christ) as will every other believer.
Then on the lAST DAY of this present earth, when Christ returns I will be raised up. The first earth and the first heaven will pass away. The new Jerusalem will come down out of heaven and THEN God will dwell with man, for there will be a new heaven and a new earth at that time
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,603
65
✟70,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There is a type of orthodoxy which can aptly be termed as a man in a canoe without a paddle.
It believes baptism in water and baptism in the holy spirit are the same thing/ one event. In reality the people who attach themselves to this belief have baptism in water but NOT baptism in the holy spirit.
They are then bereft of being led into truth by the one Christ told the disciples would lead them into truth.
I am afraid it leaves the individual with a powerless form of religion, which Is then built around, rite, ritual and ceremony. The little grey cells try and understand spiritual truth contained in the words of the bible. It is a forlorn effort.
This thread, and a previous thread have sadly, proved the above to be true
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,603
65
✟70,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12:4
was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

Paradise is not sheol, nor is it in sheol. The tree of life is in Paradise. Notice that little word 'TODAY' in Luke, not three days.



Paradise is not in the heart of the earth.



Where will you go when you die? Will you be inside the casket waiting? What is physical death?



You still haven't commented on this passage -

Proverbs 15:24
The path of life leads upward for the wise that he may keep away from Sheol below.
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the son of man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth
Matt12:40

Jesus said:
Do not hold onto me, for i have NOT YET returned to the father
John 20:17

Its up to you whether you choose to contradict the words of Christ or accept them

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was NOT LEFT in hell, neither his body did see corruption
Acts2:31
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0