Why do you have to believe in the trinity to be saved?

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Ariel Gavriel

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I'm not saying that the Trinity is not important to our understanding of God, what I am saying is that the Gospel message is stand alone. It does not need any other assistance...It is all that Christ is and what he did for us and how he opened a way that was not available to anyone. It is the power unto salvation. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
 
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Colter

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There is no verse in the bible that says believe in the trinity and ye shall be saved. Or anything even close.

The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9. So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.
Jesus never associated the Trinity with salvation.
 
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Judahs_Lion

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There is no verse in the bible that says believe in the trinity and ye shall be saved. Or anything even close.

The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9. So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.
Why the quandary? People who tell you you're going to Hell because you don't believe in the trinity aren't God. Their opinion and judgment is baseless.

Trust in the word of God alone.
Mark 12:29 informs you there is no such thing as trinity. Three separate beings all acting as co-equal divine beings. That's poly-theism. It's pagan in origin and not at all scriptural.

Don't be bothered by people intent on leading you away from the truth by scaring you with a lie that you'll suffer Hell for not believing in three co-equal beings called the trinity. Believing in the trinity is not how you are saved.

If you have the time this little article sums up the origins of the trinity.
 
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Butch5

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Again ALL of those SCRIPTURES prove your opinion in complete error. But just for giggles explain this one.........
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born (CHRIST), and unto us a Son is given (CHRIST): and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor (HOLY SPIRIT), The mighty God (THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD), The everlasting Father (oops Christ states quite clearly here HE is the FATHER), The prince of peace.

Why did you have to in put your interpretation? Could it be because that's not what the Scriptures say? Those titles apply to the child that was born. However, let's look at the passage that Jesus and the apostles would have used. The Septuagint is what Jesus and the apostles used. They didn't use the Masoretic text.

LXE Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: <1> for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. (Isa. 9:6 LXE)
 
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Judahs_Lion

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Three, yes, but three what? Three persons ... or three roles?
The same Scriptures can be understood to believe God is one Person, not three persons.
It is almost impossible to clear our mind of preconceptions.
Very true.
Jesus was known as Immanuel. This means, God with us. Jesus was God incarnate. The Bible tells us that God is a spirit.

Not three separate entities with co-equal power. One God with two attributes afforded to create his divine plan for the world. His Holy Spirit imbued Mary with his son. When Jesus departed the Holy Spirit was sent just as it arrived to show those who witnessed Jesus be baptized what it meant to receive the spirit of God. To defeat death by receiving Christ, the anointing of God.
Think what Colossians 2:9 says.
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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Why did you have to in put your interpretation? Could it be because that's not what the Scriptures say? Those titles apply to the child that was born. However, let's look at the passage that Jesus and the apostles would have used. The Septuagint is what Jesus and the apostles used. They didn't use the Masoretic text.

LXE Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: <1> for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. (Isa. 9:6 LXE)
You really didn't go there did you and make that hilarious claim of "interpretation" when all I did was highlight the facts for you did ya. But just the same what is your agenda denying the obvious?

Interpreters fall into two categories: those who seek to interpret the passage objectively with respect for the original meaning of the authors, and those who have an agenda.

Isaiah 9:6Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

BTW where did you dig up that obscure LXE "perversion" at? Oh wait it agrees with your erroneous claim about the Triune God I get it eh?
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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Very true.
Jesus was known as Immanuel. This means, God with us. Jesus was God incarnate. The Bible tells us that God is a spirit.

Not three separate entities with co-equal power. One God with two attributes afforded to create his divine plan for the world. His Holy Spirit imbued Mary with his son. When Jesus departed the Holy Spirit was sent just as it arrived to show those who witnessed Jesus be baptized what it meant to receive the spirit of God. To defeat death by receiving Christ, the anointing of God.
Think what Colossians 2:9 says.
Really so how do you explain the Triune God show at Jesus's baptism?

16 And Jesus when he was baptized, came straight out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and John saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and [lighting] upon him.

17 And lo, a voice came from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So answer me this Whom was speaking from heaven and whom was the Spirit of God descending like a dove? They certainly weren't attributes were they?
 
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Ariel Gavriel

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Oh I still believe that there is a Trinity but it's not tagged onto the gospel message. If there were no Trinity, Christ would have raised himself up but he didn't even though he had the ability to do so. John 10:17-18.

John 10 says
9 "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."
 
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ewq1938

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Three, yes, but three what? Three persons ... or three roles?
The same Scriptures can be understood to believe God is one Person, not three persons.

God is definitely not one person because the Son is a person and the Father is a different person. I believe the three should simply be named: The one God is composed of three: the Father, the Son, the holy Spirit.
 
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ewq1938

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If it was I'd be able to read it.


Reading isn't enough. Reading and understanding is needed and you don't understand that the Trinity is presented in scripture.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

G5140
treis tria
trice, tree'-ah
A primary (plural) number; “three”: - three.

In scripture the Greek word for three is "treis" (pronounced as TRICE) and translated into Latin it became "trinitas" which means "the number three, a triad, three". Eventually it became "three" in English related to the prefix "Tri" which also means three from which the English word Trinity originates. Since scripture states "three that bear record in heaven" and lists the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as those three we can firmly know the Trinity is a scriptural term originating from the Greek for the word "three".


The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all called God in various scriptures so three that are all called God comes full circle to God being a Trinity.


It did not originally have anything to do with "three persons" but simply "three". That is the purist meaning of the word Trinity without addition or alteration.

To coin a new word, Threenity. :)
 
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ken777

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God is definitely not one person because the Son is a person and the Father is a different person. I believe the three should simply be named: The one God is composed of three: the Father, the Son, the holy Spirit.
I'm afraid three different persons sounds too much like polytheism for me. The example of a father, mother & child being one family is sometimes used but that too sounds like polytheism to me.

.
 
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ewq1938

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I'm afraid three different persons sounds too much like polytheism for me.

They aren't separate Gods though. That's why it's not polytheism.

The example of a father, mother & child being one family is sometimes used but that too sounds like polytheism to me.

That's modalism. The Trinity is neither of these examples.



.
 
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ken777

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Really so how do you explain the Triune God show at Jesus's baptism?

16 And Jesus when he was baptized, came straight out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and John saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and [lighting] upon him.

17 And lo, a voice came from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So answer me this Whom was speaking from heaven and whom was the Spirit of God descending like a dove? They certainly weren't attributes were they?
I believe they were manifestations of God - there is no reason to suppose they were three different Persons in three different places. If you have three different Persons in three different places you have three gods, no matter how much they might be one in agreement.

Do you believe that God could manifest His presence to someone by a light or voice while at the same time manifesting his presence to someone else on the other side of the world?

.
 
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ken777

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They aren't separate Gods though. That's why it's not polytheism.
I did not say separate, I said three different Persons. Do you believe the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit are three different Persons? When Jesus said "I and the Father are one" in what sense did He mean 'one'?

That's modalism. The Trinity is neither of these examples.
Modalism does not use the family analogy - they would be more likely to use the analogy of one man who is a father, son & husband.

.
 
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ewq1938

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I did not say separate, I said three different Persons. Do you believe the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit are three different Persons?

The Father and Son are. The Holy Spirit is a spirit.



When Jesus said "I and the Father are one" in what sense did He mean 'one'?

According to Greek Grammar he used it as one in essence.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.


John 10:30
Egoó kaí ho Pateér hén esmen
1473 2532 9999 3588 3962 1520 2070
I and my Father one are

(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright (c) 1994 by Biblesoft)



"One. Gr. "hen" Neut., one in essence, not one person which would be "heis", masc. This is the climax of His claim to oneness with The Father in vv. 18, 25, 28, 29. Compare also V. 38; 14:11 Rev 22:3"


According to Bullinger, an accomplished Greek scholar, the word for "one" is "hen" the Neut. form of the word "heis". "heis" means "one" of person but "hen" means "one" in essence and not one person!



John 10:30 I and my Father are one [in essence].

or

John 10:30 I and my Father are [spiritually] one.



This is what Christ said.



Matthew Henry also confirms this:


http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC43010.HTM

Further to corroborate the security, that the sheep of Christ may have strong consolation, he asserts the union of these two undertakers: "I and my Father are one, and have jointly and severally undertaken for the protection of the saints and their perfection." This denotes more than the harmony, and consent, and good understanding, that were between the Father and the Son in the work of man's redemption. Every good man is so far one with God as to concur with him; therefore it must be meant of the oneness of the nature of Father and Son, that they are the same in substance, and equal in power and glory. The fathers urged this both against the Sabellians, to prove the distinction and plurality of the persons, that the Father and the Son are two, and against the Arians, to prove the unity of the nature, that these two are one. If we should altogether hold our peace concerning this sense of the words, even the stones which the Jews took up to cast at him would speak it out, for the Jews understood him as hereby making himself God (v. 33) and he did not deny it. He proves that none could pluck them out of his hand because they could not pluck them out of the Father's hand, which had not been a conclusive argument if the Son had not had the same almighty power with the Father, and consequently been one with him in essence and operation.


"the union of these two undertakers"
"therefore it must be meant of the oneness of the nature of Father and Son"
"to prove the distinction and plurality of the persons, that the Father and the Son are two"
"one with him in essence and operation"

Matthew Henry also knew that the greek for "one" was meaning one in essence, not in person as Bullinger also confirmed.



Gill

I and my Father are one. Not in person, for the Father must be a distinct person from the Son, and the Son a distinct person from the Father; and which is further manifest, from the use of the verb plural, "I and my Father", esµe?, "we are one"; that is, in nature and essence, and perfections, particularly in power



Robertson's word pictures:

John 10:30

One (hen). Neuter, not masculine (heis). Not one person (cf. heis in Gal_3:28), but one essence or nature.



Modalism does not use the family analogy - they would be more likely to use the analogy of one man who is a father, son & husband.

I've seen it used actually. One person in three modes depicted as a family unit.



.
 
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ken777

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The Father and Son are. The Holy Spirit is a spirit.

According to Greek Grammar he used it as one in essence.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.


John 10:30
Egoó kaí ho Pateér hén esmen
1473 2532 9999 3588 3962 1520 2070
I and my Father one are

(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright (c) 1994 by Biblesoft)



"One. Gr. "hen" Neut., one in essence, not one person which would be "heis", masc. This is the climax of His claim to oneness with The Father in vv. 18, 25, 28, 29. Compare also V. 38; 14:11 Rev 22:3"


According to Bullinger, an accomplished Greek scholar, the word for "one" is "hen" the Neut. form of the word "heis". "heis" means "one" of person but "hen" means "one" in essence and not one person!



John 10:30 I and my Father are one [in essence].

or

John 10:30 I and my Father are [spiritually] one.



This is what Christ said.



Matthew Henry also confirms this:


http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC43010.HTM

Further to corroborate the security, that the sheep of Christ may have strong consolation, he asserts the union of these two undertakers: "I and my Father are one, and have jointly and severally undertaken for the protection of the saints and their perfection." This denotes more than the harmony, and consent, and good understanding, that were between the Father and the Son in the work of man's redemption. Every good man is so far one with God as to concur with him; therefore it must be meant of the oneness of the nature of Father and Son, that they are the same in substance, and equal in power and glory. The fathers urged this both against the Sabellians, to prove the distinction and plurality of the persons, that the Father and the Son are two, and against the Arians, to prove the unity of the nature, that these two are one. If we should altogether hold our peace concerning this sense of the words, even the stones which the Jews took up to cast at him would speak it out, for the Jews understood him as hereby making himself God (v. 33) and he did not deny it. He proves that none could pluck them out of his hand because they could not pluck them out of the Father's hand, which had not been a conclusive argument if the Son had not had the same almighty power with the Father, and consequently been one with him in essence and operation.


"the union of these two undertakers"
"therefore it must be meant of the oneness of the nature of Father and Son"
"to prove the distinction and plurality of the persons, that the Father and the Son are two"
"one with him in essence and operation"

Matthew Henry also knew that the greek for "one" was meaning one in essence, not in person as Bullinger also confirmed.



Gill

I and my Father are one. Not in person, for the Father must be a distinct person from the Son, and the Son a distinct person from the Father; and which is further manifest, from the use of the verb plural, "I and my Father", esµe?, "we are one"; that is, in nature and essence, and perfections, particularly in power



Robertson's word pictures:

John 10:30

One (hen). Neuter, not masculine (heis). Not one person (cf. heis in Gal_3:28), but one essence or nature.
Can you explain the word 'essence' simply in your own words?
I've seen it used actually. One person in three modes depicted as a family unit.
.
I have a hard time trying to work out how one person can be a family :)
 
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