Has the Catholic Church become the church that Jesus wanted or not?

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Lazarus Short

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No church or sect and denomination is perfect. Get the best of all and ignore the questionable.

Good advise. I've been in a few churches/sects/denominations myself, and they were all imperfect.
 
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Hawkiz

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Another list i found which brings up many things 'Invented', for wish of a better word, by the Catholic church. Can anyone defend this list?

Seems to be such a lot of things that the Catholic church have introduced that are not Biblical. Can the Church really say these are based on 'Tradition' or via the Holy Spirit? What basis have we of saying that in the Church?

As i said, this is being brought up as a way of me finding out more without a bias opinion being submitted if stuck in just a Catholic part of the forums. I am not after a slanging match with anyone and hope everyone keeps things civil and try to explain their views without any hard feelings etc.



OF ALL THE HUMAN TRADITIONS taught and practiced by the Roman Catholic Church, which are contrary to the Bible, the most ancient are the prayers for the dead and the sign of the Cross. Both began 300 years after Christ.

310 Wax Candles introduced in church

320
Veneration of angels and dead saints

375 The Mass, as a daily celebration, adopted

394 The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, "Mother of God", as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus

431 Priests began to dress differently from the laity

500 Extreme Unction

526 The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great

593 The Latin language, as the language of prayer and worship in churches, was also imposed by Pope Gregory I. 600 years after Christ

The Word of God forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue. (1st Corinthians 14:9).

600 The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church.

(Matthew 11:28; Luke 1:46; Acts 10:25-26; 14:14-18)

600 The Papacy is of pagan origin. The title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the wicked emperor Phocas.

This he did to spite Bishop Ciriacus of Constantinople, who had justly excommunicated him for his having caused the assassination of his predecessor emperor Mauritius. Gregory 1, then bishop of Rome, refused the title, but his successor, Boniface III, first assumed title "pope."

Jesus did not appoint Peter to the headship of the apostles and forbade any such notion. (Luke 22:24-26; Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18; 1st Corinthians 3:11).

Note: Nor is there any mention in Scripture, nor in history, that Peter ever was in Rome, much less that he was pope there for 25 years; Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks that "there is no real 1st century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome."

610 The kissing of the Pope's feet

It had been a pagan custom to kiss the feet of emperors. The Word of God forbids such practices. (Read Acts 10:25-26; Revelation 19:10; 22:9).

709 The Temporal power of the Popes

When Pepin, the usurper of the throne of France, descended into Italy, called by Pope Stephen II, to war against the Italian Lombards, he defeated them and gave the city of Rome and surrounding territory to the pope. Jesus expressly forbade such a thing, and He himself refused worldly kingship. (Read Matthew 4:8-9; 20:25-26; John 18:38).

750 Worship of the cross, images and relics was authorized

This was by order of Dowager Empress Irene of Constantinople, who first caused to pluck the eyes of her own son, Constantine VI, and then called a church council at the request of Hadrian I, pope of Rome at that time.

Such practice is called simply IDOLATRY in the Bible, and is severely condemned. (Read Exodus 20:4; 3:17; Deuteronomy 27:15; Psalm 115).

788 Holy Water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, was authorized

850 The veneration of St. Joseph began

890 The baptism of bells was instituted by Pope John XIV

965 Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV

Every believer and follower of Christ is called saint in the Bible. (Read Romans 1:7; 1st Colossians 1:2).

995 Fasting on Fridays and during Lent were imposed

Imposed by popes said to be interested in the commerce of fish. (Bull, or permit to eat meat), some authorities say, began in the year 700. This is against the plain teaching of the Bible. (Read Matthew 15:10; 1st Corinthians 10:25; 1st Timothy 4:1-3).

998 The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice; attendance made obligatory in the 11th century.

The Bible teaches that the sacrifice of Christ was offered once and for all, and is not to be repeated, but only commemorated in the Lord's Supper. (Read Hebrews 7:27; 9:26-28; 10:10-14).



The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII

Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read 1st Timothy 3:2,5, and 12; Matthew 8:14-15).

1079 The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans

The counting of prayers is a pagan practice and is expressly condemned by Christ. (Matthew 6:5-13).

1090 The Inquisition of heretics was instituted by the Council of Verona in the year 1184. Jesus never taught the use of force to spread His religion

1184 The sale of Indulgences, commonly regarded as a purchase of forgiveness and a permit to indulge in sin.

Christianity, as taught in the Bible, condemns such a traffic and it was the protest against this traffic that brought on the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.

1190 The dogma of Transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III, in the year

By this doctrine the priest pretends to perform a daily miracle by changing a wafer into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive in the presence of his people during Mass. The Bible condemns such absurdities; for the Lord's Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper. (Read Luke 22:19-20; John 6:35; 1st Corinthians 11:26).

1215 Confession of sin to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III., in the Lateran Council

The Bible commands us to confess our sins direct to God. (Read Psalm 51:1-10; Luke 7:48; 15:21; 1st John 1:8-9).

1215 The adoration of the wafer (Host), was decreed by Pope Honorius

So the Roman Church worships a God made by human hands. This is plain idolatry and absolutely contrary to the spirit of the Gospel. (Read John 4:24).

1220 The Bible forbidden to laymen and placed in the Index of forbidden books by the Council of Valencia

Jesus commanded that the Scriptures should be read by all. (John 5:39; 1st Timothy 3:15-17).

1229 The Scapular was invented by Simon Stock, and English monk

It is a piece of brown cloth, with the picture of the Virgin and supposed to contain supernatural virtue to protect from all dangers those who wear it on naked skin. This is fetishism.

1287 The Roman Church forbade the cup to the laity, by instituting the communion of one kind in the Council of Constance

The Bible commands us to celebrate the Lord's Supper with unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine. (Read Matthew 26:27; 1st Corinthians 11:26-29).

1414 The doctrine of Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma of faith by Council of Florence

There is not one word in the Bible that would teach the purgatory of priests. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins. (Read 1st John 1:7-9; 2:1-2; John 5:24; Romans 8:1).

1439 The doctrine of 7 Sacraments affirmed

The Bible says that Christ instituted only two ordinances, Baptism and the Lord's Supper. (Read Matthew 28:19-20; 26:26-28).

1439 The Ave Maria, part of the last

It was completed 50 years afterward and finally approved by Pope Sixtus V, at the end of the 16th century.

1508

The Council of Trent, held in the year 1545, declared that Tradition is of equal authority with the Bible

By tradition is meant human teachings. The Pharisees believed the same way, and Jesus bitterly condemned them, for by teaching human tradition, they nullified the commandments of God. (Read Mark 7:7-13; Colossians 2:8; Revelation 22:18).

1545 The apocryphal books were added to the Bible also by the Council of Trent

These books were not recognized as canonical by the Jewish Church. (See Revelation 22:8-9).

1546 The Creed of Pope Pius IV was imposed as the official creed 1560 years after Christ and the apostles

True Christians retain the Holy Scriptures as their creed. Hence their creed is 1500 years older than the creed of Roman Catholics. (Read Galatians 1:8).

1560 The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX

The Bible states that all men, with the sole exception of Christ, are sinners. Mary herself had need of a Savior. (Read Romans 3:23; 5:12; Psalm 51:5; Luke 1:30,46,47).

1834 In the year 1870 after Christ, Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of Papal Infallibility

This is a blasphemy and the sign of the apostasy and of the antichrist predicted by St. Paul. (Read 2nd Thessalonians 2:2-12; Revelation 17:1-9; 13:5-8,18).

Many Bible students see the number of the beast (Rev. 13:18), 666 in the Roman letters of the Pope's title: "VICARIVS FILII DEI." -- V-5, I-1; C-100, I-1; V-S, I-1; L-50, I-1; I-1; D-500, I-l — Total, 666.

1870 Pope Plus X, in the year 1907, condemned together with "Modernism", all the discoveries of modern science which are not approved by the Church

Pius IX had done the same thing in the Syllabus of 1864.

In the year 1931 the same pope Pius XI, reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is "the Mother of God"

This doctrine was first invented by the Council of Ephesus in the year 431. This is a heresy contrary by Mary's own words. (Read Luke 1:46-49; John 2: l-5).

In the year 1950 the last dogma was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII, the Assumption of the Virgin Mary

1950

This 'list' is filled with lies of varying degrees, full of outright anti-Catholic biases, and provides very limited 'proofs' of its claims.

We can start with the very first 'claim': that prayers for the dead and the sign of the Cross are (as the list claims) are 'contrary to the bible'. Prayers for the dead are well established as ancient Hebrew practices, some documented within the Book of Macabees (around 400 years prior to Christ). How is making the sign of the Cross 'contrary to the bible'? What does the sign of the Cross call us to?: to keep The Word of God in our minds, on our hearts and in our lives. Please tell me how reminding ourselves of THAT is 'contrary to the Bible'.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz
 
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abysmul

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One could look at how the first church(s) was/were described for us in the Bible, and then compare it to what we see today... and one could then look at the actual books of the Bible compared to the libraries filled with works and "official" documents to supplement and explain the Bible and justify things in the Roman Catholic Church... and then answer that question. When I did, I came to a conclusion that did not keep me in Roman Catholicism (after RCIA classes)... I won't claim to answer the question for Jesus though! :)
 
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Davidnic

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Why didn't the Apostles mention Mary and to pray to her etc etc like we do now?

Didn't Paul say that Bishops should be married?

Well partly because she was there to talk to. Remember both Christ and Paul mention Tradition, the things that will not be in Scripture (the Gospel yesterday remember):


JN 16:12-15
Jesus said to his disciples:
"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth,
he will guide you to all truth.
He will not speak on his own,
but he will speak what he hears,
and will declare to you the things that are coming.
He will glorify me,
because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
Everything that the Father has is mine;
for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine
and declare it to you."

And Paul said (2 Thessalonians 2:15):

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.


Also you need to look at the Early Church Fathers and what they were teaching from Sacred Tradition. It seems your biggest concern is Sacred Tradition and it's validity. So my final advice to you, since the thread is moved, is investigate on your own who the Early Church Fathers are and what they taught. They were the recipients of Sacred Tradition, some from the Apostles themselves, and do not rely to heavily on the internet for sources. If you do be sure you follow the source trail back and do your own research. Also I recommend seeing if you can get the book Why Do Catholics Do That? By Kevin Orlin Johnson. It seems your questions could be aided by that book.
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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I have often thought about this.

Has the Catholic Church become the church that Jesus wanted or not?

Has it grown into an ugly monster or not? Has it been true to the words of Jesus or has it gone its own way?

I am sometimes confused by these things. I have read so many good Catholic books and watched many good Catholic videos. I still keep asking myself the above questions.

How do we know the church has been heading in the right direction all these years? By the Holy Spirit? Through Tradition?

I see what the church has become and there are quite a few parts of it that i dont like. Maybe i will list them later.

Anyone else have the same questions?
Here are many unbiblical practices of the catholic church. So if you can see these errors for what they are then you need to know why many like me that were born and raised catholic left the catholic church and sought out bible based churches.

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Repetitious prayer

Matt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.


1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

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Confession to a priest

1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator (CHRIST) between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator (CHRIST).

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He (CHRIST) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the Law? It was added because of the transgressions, till the seed came, unto the which the promise was made: and it was ordained by Angels in the hand of a Mediator CHRIST).

Galatians 3:20
Now a Mediator is not a Mediator (CHRIST) of one: but God is one.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator (CHRIST) between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the Mediator of the new Testament, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1 John2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not: and if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just.
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Forbiddung to eat meat and priest to marry

1 Tim 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

1 Tim 3 Entire chapter
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The Church is not related to salvation

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

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Eucharist NOT the body of Christ

Christ said the bread was Hs body does that make bread His flesh.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.


Jesus said he was a vine does that make Him a plant.

John 15:5
I am that vine: ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me can ye do nothing.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Baptism doesn't forgive "original sin"

Christ was baptised but he was sinless: Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Thief on cross was not baptised yet he went to heaven. Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent (FIRST), and (THEN) be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 6:4 (symbolism of Christ's death, burial and resurrection)
We are buried then with him by baptism into his death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead to the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life.

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Statues of God and s Dead Saints are againt the second commandnent

Ex 20:4-6 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.


Deuteronomy 4: 16 That ye corrupt not yourselves, and make you a graven image, or representation of any figure: whether it be the likeness of male or female,


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Saints are the living saved people of the church

1 Thessalonians 5:27
I charge you in the Lord, that this Epistle be read unto all the brethren the Saints.

Philippians 4:22
All the Saints salute you, and most of all they which are of Caesar’s household.

1 Timothy 5:10
And well reported of for good works: if she have nourished her children, if she have lodged the strangers, if she have washed the Saints’ feet, if she have ministered unto them which were in adversity, if she were continually given unto every good work.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as we see in all the Churches of the Saints.

Ephesians 3:8
Even unto me the least of all Saints is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ,


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The catholic church is not the "true" church


Peter was not the first pope nor is there a pope mentioned or condoned in the bible

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (stone), and upon this rock I will build my Church: and the gates of hell shall not overcome it.

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus beheld him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of Jonah: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation a stone.

Who was Christ referring to when He said this....19 Jesus answered, and said unto them, Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay, than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.


Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone, and a rock to make men fall: and everyone that believeth in him, shall not be ashamed.

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Christ died once for all which proves Mass is of satanic origin.


Hebrews 9:26 (For then must he have often suffered since the foundation of the world) but now in the end of the world hath he been made manifest, once to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men that they shall once die, and after that cometh the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to take away the sins of many, and unto them that look for him, shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 
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Sketcher

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Jesus established the Universal Church. This is not to be confused with the Roman Catholic Church. That was a product of syncretism with Roman culture and politics. This is not to say that Catholics do not have the Christian faith that Jesus established and seeks everyone to have, but that's just how the church evolved. Christians outside of the Roman Catholic umbrella certainly exist, we have the faith that Christ taught as well - we just don't have all of the extra trappings that Catholics claim is part of it. I can see how some of them may be used to remember Christ and the faith that he taught, but that doesn't mean that he set those trappings up. Where they can lead someone astray, Protestants do away with them.
 
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Goatee

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Well partly because she was there to talk to. Remember both Christ and Paul mention Tradition, the things that will not be in Scripture (the Gospel yesterday remember):


JN 16:12-15
Jesus said to his disciples:
"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth,
he will guide you to all truth.
He will not speak on his own,
but he will speak what he hears,
and will declare to you the things that are coming.
He will glorify me,
because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.
Everything that the Father has is mine;
for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine
and declare it to you."

And Paul said (2 Thessalonians 2:15):

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.


Also you need to look at the Early Church Fathers and what they were teaching from Sacred Tradition. It seems your biggest concern is Sacred Tradition and it's validity. So my final advice to you, since the thread is moved, is investigate on your own who the Early Church Fathers are and what they taught. They were the recipients of Sacred Tradition, some from the Apostles themselves, and do not rely to heavily on the internet for sources. If you do be sure you follow the source trail back and do your own research. Also I recommend seeing if you can get the book Why Do Catholics Do That? By Kevin Orlin Johnson. It seems your questions could be aided by that book.

Thanks for that. Interesting.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Unfortunately, they all claim to be the right way, not Jesus' way!

One of the best things I ever read from a Christian writer was this: Any Church which claims to be the One True Church...is not. No wonder Jesus wondered if He would faith on the Earth when He returned. I happen to believe that the Church He alludes to is made up of the Overcomers, and these Overcomers are to be found in every denomination.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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I have often thought about this.

Has the Catholic Church become the church that Jesus wanted or not?

Has it grown into an ugly monster or not? Has it been true to the words of Jesus or has it gone its own way?

I am sometimes confused by these things. I have read so many good Catholic books and watched many good Catholic videos. I still keep asking myself the above questions.

How do we know the church has been heading in the right direction all these years? By the Holy Spirit? Through Tradition?

I see what the church has become and there are quite a few parts of it that i dont like. Maybe i will list them later.

Anyone else have the same questions?

I suppose one's answer will depend a great deal on whether one accepts the doctrine of the Catholic church or not. I do not and so my short answer is NO.
 
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Goatee

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Some have said about the early church fathers but even then how early is early? When did these 'Catholic' doctrines come into being?

I love being a Catholic but i have my reservations about quite a few things that dont add up or seem right!

Looking back to the time of the apostles there are lots of things now in the church that were not even mentioned during their lives! Ceremonies and doctrines that didnt exist then. Things that were not in the Bible.

I see a massive organization in the Catholic church that is very secretive, very wealthy and un Biblical in a lot of its doctrines! The more i think about these things the more i think the church is not what Jesus intended.

'WE' are the church! Not some organization!

The gates of hell would not prevail against His church! 'US', Is that the church Jesus was on about? Catholic church did not exist in those days.

I see priests bowing and kissing relics and i think that cannot be right!! This makes me feel uneasy.
I see the vast wealth of the church
I see the pomp and ceremony
I see the expense in Catholic 'garb' and buildings etc etc etc
I see the doctrines that have no Biblical backing
I see many things that seem to be 'invented' to suit the / my Catholic faith!

I am searching and praying that God will help me to find my way through these questions.
 
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Goatee

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For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. Jesus, Luke 12:2

Seek and ye shall find. antletems is a seeker.

Can you explain that please? Ta
 
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Rhamiel

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I often think that the 'Church' that Jesus started was not about buildings or a pope or hierarchy like it is today.

I sometimes think that Jesus was purely on about the 'People' as the 'Church' not some organization or denomination.

Ok, the Catholic church say that Peter was the rock and on him the church was to be built. Could that be wrong? Could it be that Jesus was saying that it was on the faith such as Peters that he would build his church? On 'People' like Peter? Peter, the rock. Strong and with foundation. A solid faith to build on?

I look at all the things that the church have brought to the faithful since the early years and wonder is it because they have been handed down via 'Tradition' and not via a Biblical sense that the church could be in error?

There are a list of things that are not 'Biblical' in the Catholic doctrines / beliefs. Have they taken their own path instead of sticking to the original plan that Jesus implemented?

Thats some things to be going on with for now.

I will ask a Mod to move this thread so all can get involved.

I am so sorry :( I know I am probably not the right person to respond to this, that my style can be off-putting

I hope that we can look at each others ideas and concerns with an open mind :(

"I often think that the 'Church' that Jesus started was not about buildings or a pope or hierarchy like it is today."
first off, who says that today "the Church is about buildings"? I see that term thrown around a lot and it does not really make sense
we are not a building, we are a community, that is what the Church is
now you say that you think the Church that Jesus started was not about hierarchy?
why do you think that? He started it with 12 Apostles, a hierarchy
those Apostles set up local churches with local leaders
from even before the Council of Nicaea we can clearly see that Bishops were given authority

St. Ignatius of Antioch was the third Bishop of Antioch and learned the Gospel directly from St. John
" See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

this was not some stuff made up by men in the Middle Ages when you had politics mixed up in the Church
this was what was preached by the men who were being killed for the faith
he was not seeking power for the sake of power
he knew that his faith would lead to him being put to death, he was thrown to wild beasts
many were tortured, lost lands and titles, rejected by their family
so this was not some scheme, this is the teaching of a man who learned the Gospel from St. John himself

why do you think that the Church the Jesus founded is not hierarchical?

we should try to have proper exegesis
not put modern understanding on ancient texts
the idea that Jesus was not calling Peter the rock is something that was made up by Protestants so they would have an excuse to rebel against the Pope 1500 years after those words were spoken
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Some have said about the early church fathers but even then how early is early? When did these 'Catholic' doctrines come into being?

I love being a Catholic but i have my reservations about quite a few things that dont add up or seem right!

Looking back to the time of the apostles there are lots of things now in the church that were not even mentioned during their lives! Ceremonies and doctrines that didnt exist then. Things that were not in the Bible.

I see a massive organization in the Catholic church that is very secretive, very wealthy and un Biblical in a lot of its doctrines! The more i think about these things the more i think the church is not what Jesus intended.

'WE' are the church! Not some organization!

The gates of hell would not prevail against His church! 'US', Is that the church Jesus was on about? Catholic church did not exist in those days.

I see priests bowing and kissing relics and i think that cannot be right!! This makes me feel uneasy.
I see the vast wealth of the church
I see the pomp and ceremony
I see the expense in Catholic 'garb' and buildings etc etc etc
I see the doctrines that have no Biblical backing
I see many things that seem to be 'invented' to suit the / my Catholic faith!

I am searching and praying that God will help me to find my way through these questions.

antletems,
When one sees wrongs one has to make godly choices...I believe it is your Christian duty to confront or flee. We are called to make these difficult choices.
Romans 14:23:
...everything that does not come from faith is sin.
So you by remaining a member of a church which has strayed lead others into sin as well? In the end it is a very difficult choice...do not love father or mother, sister or brother, wife or husband or even your very life than Christ and His commands.
But truly, I wish you Godspeed in working out your salvation and in my view this is part of it.
 
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love2obey

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I dont mind any view if it is allowed.
Sadly, the members of the church is what makes the church and not one man's opinion.
we are to seek perfection in Christ as a church by answering all questions with our testimony. Jesus was questioned more than once and His answers always uplift God's name and glory. He was silenced because the powers to be didnt have answers to the question that arose with His existence.
Do we truly understand that? Is it our relationship with Christ the reason of our trouble or our own sinful actions creating the problems in our lives?
When we fear the truth, we are running way from Christ. lets stand for the truth, the the truth be spoken.
 
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Goatee

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But, i understand about the hierarchy. I just think that it has gone to the head with a lot in the church. Too far i would say. Ok, maybe that is the same with all denominations.

You say it is the protestants that kicked up a fuss about what Jesus actually meant when he mentioned rock to Peter but what if they are right? How can we say 100% that we are right? Why is our interpretation the right one?
 
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