Why do you have to believe in the trinity to be saved?

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anonymouswho

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Jesus forgave sins and only God can do that.

"And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
But that ye may know that the son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
And he arose, and departed to his house.
But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men." Matthew 9:2

Where do the Scriptures say only God can forgive sins? Yeshua said the son of man has this authority, and the sons of men glorified God for giving this authority to men.
 
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AFrazier

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The word “Deity” or “Godhead” is a translation of the Greek word theotes.In A Greek English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, the classic lexicon of the ancient Greek language, it is translated as “divinity, divine nature.”In making their case, Liddell and Scott cite Greek authors Plutarch and Lucian, and also reference Heliodorus and Oribasius using the phrase dia theoteta = “for religious reasons.” The Greek word occurs only once in the Bible, so to try to build a case for it meaning “God” or “Godhead” (which is an unclear term in itself) is very suspect indeed. Standard rules for interpreting Scripture would dictate that the way Paul used theotes in Colossians would be the same way the Colossians were used to hearing it in their culture. There is no reason to believe that Paul wrote to the Colossians expecting them to “redefine” the vocabulary they were using. Christ was filled with holy spirit “without measure,” and God gave him authority on earth to heal, cast out demons, forgive sins, etc. Thus, it makes perfect sense that Scripture would say that Christ had the fullness of the “divine nature” dwelling in him. In fact, the same thing is said about every Christian (2 Pet. 1:4).-http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/colossians-2-9


You are going to have to do better than col 2:9.
I agree with your logic. And based on the same logic of Greek-speaking people understanding their language because they speak it, and it is therefore commonplace for them, do recognize that during the Arian controversy, the collective response to the idea that Jesus was not God was, "He is the word!" They did not argue translations or points of logic. He is the word, and that is the end of the discussion for them, because they understood John 1:1 just fine as meaning that the Word was God. So if you're a sincere truth-seeker with any sense of logic, accept the simple fact that Jesus was God. As such, the fullness of divinity, the fullness of the divinity, the fullness of the godhead, or however you want to translate it, all dwelt within him bodily.

However, in response to your opening post, let me say that I personally agree with you. Regardless of what we should believe as a matter of doctrine or dogma, the recipe for salvation is to believe in Jesus Christ, that he is the only begotten son of God, that he died for our sins, and that God raised him from the dead on the third day. Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, and you shall be saved. I've never once read a passage that said you must believe that Jesus is God in the flesh to be saved. Nor have I ever read that you must believe in a trinity that is never once mentioned directly, but only indirectly by inference, to be saved.

Now, I do disagree with your point of view. I do believe in the trinity. I do believe that Jesus was God in the flesh. I think the scriptures spell it all out clearly and unambiguously for anyone who isn't trying to find a way to make them say something other than what they say. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit comforter, are all named God at one point or another. But if bad doctrine based on a misunderstanding sent us to hell, then we'd all be in trouble, because there isn't a denomination out there that doesn't have something wrong. Jesus' own response to bad doctrine, as in the case of the Sadducees who believed the soul died with the body, was to simply tell them they were wrong. Ye do greatly err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. He didn't call them a cult. He didn't condemn them in word or deed to the fires of hell. He just told them they were wrong, and corrected them.
 
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Ariel Gavriel

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You Just need to believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and that God rose him up from the dead and he now intercedes on our behalf on the right-hand of God. That's what most believers preach when they are speaking to a non believer about salvation. Later on, new believers get to know more about God and the Holy Spirit through bible study and growing in grace...JM2c
 
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Albion

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You Just need to believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and that God rose him up from the dead and he now intercedes on our behalf on the right-hand of God. That's what most believers preach when they are speaking to a non believer about salvation. Later on, new believers get to know more about God and the Holy Spirit through bible study and growing in grace...JM2c
That's "all" you have to believe if you are a believer in the real Jesus of Scripture.

Believing only that someone or some being known by that name was brought back from the grave by divine intervention won't do it. For example, if you believe that God, being a spirit, couldn't actually become one of his creatures or, if not that, that God would be demeaned by such an act, therefore men's minds were clouded by an act of God into thinking that a spirit named Jesus, who looked to them in all ways like a real, flesh and blood human, died and rose again...

...you wouldn't actually be believing in the triumph over death of Jesus the Christ, the Messiah, by whose sacrifice we may be saved from sin. It would be a similar story, that's all.
 
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Leevo

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A wide range of grammarians and Biblical scholars have recognized that the absence of the definite article before “our Savior Jesus Christ” is quite inadequate to establish the Trinitarian claim that Jesus is here called ‘the great God’
The point is, that when Scripture refers to “our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” it can refer to two separate beings—1) the Great God and 2) the Savior, Jesus Christ

Norton makes some great points and shows the irrelevance of the Granville Sharp Rule in “proving” the Trinity. Because no ambiguity between Christ and God would arise in the minds of the readers due to the omission of the article, it can be omitted without a problem. Likewise, there was no need for a second article in Matthew 21:12 in the phrase, “all the [ones] selling and buying,” or in Ephesians 2:20 in the phrase, “the apostles and prophets,” because no one would ever think that “sold” and “bought” meant the same thing, or that “apostles” and “prophets” were somehow the same office. This same is true all over the Bible. There is no need for a second article if no confusion would arise without it. The “rule” therefore begs the question. It can be made to apply only if it can be shown that an ambiguity would have arisen in the minds of the first century readers between Christ and God. Because the whole of Scripture clearly shows the difference between Christ and God, and that difference would have been in the minds of the believers, the Granville Sharp “Rule” is not a valid reason to make Christ God.-http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/the-granville-sharp-rule


Granville Sharp's rule is still very much relevant. It really only applies when it was talking about a person or persons.

From Theopedia: "What is often overlooked is that Granville Sharp distinctly noted that the rule applies when the two nouns are singular and apply to persons, not things. When these restrictions are considered, there are no exceptions to be noted in native Koine Greek constructions." It is clearly the correct translation of Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1.


Also, I would ask what your interpretation of Revelation 22:13 where Jesus is speaking and says "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

That is a claim of deity if I ever heard one.
 
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Jack Terrence

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There is no verse in the bible that says believe in the trinity and ye shall be saved. Or anything even close.

The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9. So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.
Romans 10:9 says that we must confess Jesus as YHWH.

"For, if you confess with your mouth YHWH Jesus...."
 
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Ariel Gavriel

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That's "all" you have to believe if you are a believer in the real Jesus of Scripture.

Believing only that someone or some being known by that name was brought back from the grave by divine intervention won't do it. For example, if you believe that God, being a spirit, couldn't actually become one of his creatures or, if not that, that God would be demeaned by such an act, therefore men's minds were clouded by an act of God into thinking that a spirit named Jesus, who looked to them in all ways like a real, flesh and blood human, died and rose again...

...you wouldn't actually be believing in the triumph over death of Jesus the Christ, the Messiah, by whose sacrifice we may be saved from sin. It would be a similar story, that's all.

When the gospel is preached, a seed of truth is planted in the listeners heart. This seed eventually becomes a revelation which enables the receiver to understand what is being said because the gospel preached from the mouth of a Spirit filled believer, is always mixed with power from on high through the Holy Spirit who dwells within them...Isaiah 55:11
 
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Commander Xenophon

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No, that is not true. The Bible implies a Trinity, but does not folly work it out. Hence, the early fathers looked to Hellenic metaphysics.

Not true; St. Athanasius and the Cappadocians, and indeed Tertullian who coined the word "Trinity," followed the tradition of the Apostles and defended their doctrines with Biblical quotes. You should try reading their works some time; if you did, you would find them equally awash with Scriptural references and denigrations of Hellenic philosophy.

The Trinitarian formulations are largely extra-biblical in nature and use terms completely foreign to Scripture such as "substance."

This is a completely false statement on your part, as this link to the BibleHub concordance shows:

http://biblehub.com/concordance/s/substance.htm

A word that appears 99 times in Scripture I think we can all agree is not foreign to it. But you just basically accrued ninety nine counts of (I believe accidentally) disseminating a false statement

Here is where you are getting confused: the specific phrase used in the Nicene Creed, "of one substance," homoousios, is not used explicitly in the New Testament. But one can regard it, by the standards of dynamic equivalence translation as used by the NIV and other modern Bibles, as a valid thought-for-thought dynamic equivalent of "I and the father are one."

On the other hand, since Jesus never says "I am like the father," which the Semi-Arians argued for (homoiousios) or "I am unlike the Father," (heterousios, the preferred Arian term), we can reject these alternatives as un-Biblical.

Arius was specifically the Classical Theist you ought to be taking issue with; he was the one who latched onto the Pagan philosophical concept of the Logos as defined by Philo and the neo-Platonists and tried to apply that concept to our Lord, even to the extent of contradicting the very passage that identifies our Lord as Logos, because that passage also calls Him God. Arius tried to weasel his way around this with the "God according to honor" argument, but that failed, because again, homoousios is a valid expression of "I and the father are one."

The real reason why the Trinity is puzzling to many is frankly due to muddled thinking on the part of teh fathers.

No, its puzzling to many because they were poorly catechized or not catechized by their respective churches at all on what the Trinity is, and what it means for us in terms of Salvation. Its tragic how many Lutheran, Episcopalian and Methodist churches bear the name "Trinity Lutheran" or "Trinity Episcopal Church" or "Trinity Methodist Church," but almost never preach about the Trinity and why the Trinity and a belief in it, indeed, an emulation of it, coming from us, is imperative for our salvation.
 
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Ariel Gavriel

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Preaching Christ, his death and resurrection is imperative to the salvation message. That is what the gospel is all about. Everything else comes from growing in grace through bible study and everything that pertains to the new believers growth in Christ.
 
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Albion

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Its tragic how many Lutheran, Episcopalian and Methodist churches bear the name "Trinity Lutheran" or "Trinity Episcopal Church" or "Trinity Methodist Church," but almost never preach about the Trinity and why the Trinity and a belief in it, indeed, an emulation of it, coming from us, is imperative for our salvation.
They do have Trinity Sunday (a fairly prominent commemoration) on the church calendars which, as I recall, is not the case with the RCC, EO, or others. In the RCC, every Sunday during the summer commemorates "Ordinary Time" instead. :rolleyes:
 
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Ariel Gavriel

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I have had the pleasure of leading at least 800 souls into a personal relationship with Christ with the gospel message. Not one of them had made a commitment for Christ by preaching about the Trinity. If you do not believer what I am saying, try it yourself...
 
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Job8

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The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9. So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:9).

This verse presents two Divine Persons within the Godhead -- the LORD Jesus and God. To believe that Jesus is Lord, one must also believe that He is God, and the Scripture below is ample proof (Heb 1:8-10):

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
 
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Commander Xenophon

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They do have Trinity Sunday (a fairly prominent commemoration) on the church calendars which, as I recall, is not the case with the RCC, EO, or others. In the RCC, every Sunday during the summer commemorates "Ordinary Time" instead. :rolleyes:

Yes, I love Trinity Sunday, and I am glad it exists, because otherwise a lot of these mainline churches would never preach about the Trinity at all! But they miss other obvious chances to discuss the Trinity, like the Baptism of our Lord, where all three Persons were in some way manifest.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes, I love Trinity Sunday, and I am glad it exists, because otherwise a lot of these mainline churches would never preach about the Trinity at all! But they miss other obvious chances to discuss the Trinity, like the Baptism of our Lord, where all three Persons were in some way manifest.

Indeed.

Pastor John MacArthur has a wonderful succinct sermon on the Trinity.

http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A215/our-triune-god

John Piper as well:

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-is-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity
 
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Commander Xenophon

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redleghunter

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Is that the same guy who did the Strange Fire conference about certain disturbing occurrences in the Charismatic movement? If so, I am a fan.
He is. IMO he went a bit overboard on that. MacArthur is a cessationist. Something for a different discussion perhaps.
 
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Albion

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Yes, I love Trinity Sunday, and I am glad it exists, because otherwise a lot of these mainline churches would never preach about the Trinity at all! But they miss other obvious chances to discuss the Trinity, like the Baptism of our Lord, where all three Persons were in some way manifest.
Gee, I don't know if that particular example holds. I've often heard the Trinitarian point made when Christ's baptism is discussed. However, with regard to other logical opportunities--and despite my little joke about Trinity Sunday--you are most likely correct that the Trinity is not emphasized in Western churches nearly as often as it's done in Orthodox Christian ones.
 
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Hoghead1

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Not true; St. Athanasius and the Cappadocians, and indeed Tertullian who coined the word "Trinity," followed the tradition of the Apostles and defended their doctrines with Biblical quotes. You should try reading their works some time; if you did, you would find them equally awash with Scriptural references and denigrations of Hellenic philosophy.



This is a completely false statement on your part, as this link to the BibleHub concordance shows:

http://biblehub.com/concordance/s/substance.htm

A word that appears 99 times in Scripture I think we can all agree is not foreign to it. But you just basically accrued ninety nine counts of (I believe accidentally) disseminating a false statement

Here is where you are getting confused: the specific phrase used in the Nicene Creed, "of one substance," homoousios, is not used explicitly in the New Testament. But one can regard it, by the standards of dynamic equivalence translation as used by the NIV and other modern Bibles, as a valid thought-for-thought dynamic equivalent of "I and the father are one."

On the other hand, since Jesus never says "I am like the father," which the Semi-Arians argued for (homoiousios) or "I am unlike the Father," (heterousios, the preferred Arian term), we can reject these alternatives as un-Biblical.

Arius was specifically the Classical Theist you ought to be taking issue with; he was the one who latched onto the Pagan philosophical concept of the Logos as defined by Philo and the neo-Platonists and tried to apply that concept to our Lord, even to the extent of contradicting the very passage that identifies our Lord as Logos, because that passage also calls Him God. Arius tried to weasel his way around this with the "God according to honor" argument, but that failed, because again, homoousios is a valid expression of "I and the father are one."



No, its puzzling to many because they were poorly catechized or not catechized by their respective churches at all on what the Trinity is, and what it means for us in terms of Salvation. Its tragic how many Lutheran, Episcopalian and Methodist churches bear the name "Trinity Lutheran" or "Trinity Episcopal Church" or "Trinity Methodist Church," but almost never preach about the Trinity and why the Trinity and a belief in it, indeed, an emulation of it, coming from us, is imperative for our salvation.

I am well familiar with Athanasius and the Cappadocians, and they were classical theists to the hilt, insisting on a wholly immutable, passionless God. That God is wholly immutable and impassible is central in Athanasius' thought. God becomes man to purge the universe of all change, thus elevating us from the realm of the changeable to that of the unchangeable. Of Christ he writes, "Therefore, there was need of an unchangeable o ne, in order that men might have as an image and type for virtue that immutability of the righteousness of the Logos." Basil is eager to separate the Spirit from the contaminating influence of the material world, which he describe as the source of all sin. He warns not to think of God or the Spirit as subject to change or variation. The union of the Holy Spirit with the soul must "exclude passion, which comes from the flesh and turns one from God." To be truly spiritual is to put nature underfoot as the enemy, to be "free from the flesh." Gregory of Nazianzus also distinguishes the Spirit from creatures on the basis that the Spirit does not change.

The term "substance" was used because the fathers followed Hellenic substance metaphysics, which is why God was described as a simple, immutable, nonrelational being.
Arius and the Arians vigorously argued the Christ could not be God, as Christy changed and also suffered, and they believed that totally impossible for God. Again, substance metaphysics. The Trin8itarians held with a similar view of God, which led to the Council of Chalcedon and the notion that Christ consists of two wholly separate natures: a human nature, which can suffer and change, and a divine nature, which is impassible.
Yu misunderstand my point about Scripture. I did not say the Trinity was not in the Bible. I said the Bible implies a Trinity, but doers not work it out in any detail. Hence, the Trinitarian formulas are extra-biblical I n nature. Where, for example, in Scripture do you find Augustine's psych9logical model of the Trinity?
 
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Four Angels Standing

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There is no verse in the bible that says believe in the trinity and ye shall be saved. Or anything even close.

The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9. So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.

You don't have to believe in the trinity to be saved. Anyone who tries to tell you that is a liar. It's not a point of argument when a lie is spoken so as to mislead the Saints. Recognize the lie, move on, and let those who perpetrate the lie live with the consequences that befalls false doctrine.

I ran into a guy that stated Jesus died on the cross and stayed dead! He's a false teacher, and a liar. What's to argue? When God has already told the Saints the fate of such ones as that? 2 Peter 2:1

Keep in mind also that there are those who relish confusing Christians and getting them upset over scripture misrepresentation on the internet. Some have been dedicated to that for years and years all over the web.
1 Timothy 6:3-5

Keep to the truth of the words of God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Let the ravenous wolves find sustenance elsewhere for their time is short and their fate is sealed unto damnation.
 
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Butch5

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Nobody is saved and suddenly has all knowledge. We begin the divine learning process, which is why the Holy Spirit is given to each and every believer to teach them of God. We have all knowledge at our disposal at that point, but never before. Some people are given the knowledge of the Trinity at salvation, with others its a process. (Don't bother to ask me why that is. Ask God. He alone is the dispenser of divine knowledge.) ALL divine knowledge is not yours to figure out by your own means. It takes going to GOD to figure out. THAT "idea" came from God. Actually its more a command.

Why is so many people try to skip around that fact? You went to Him for salvation and accepted His free gift, so why not go to Him for divine knowledge, in faith, believing He WILL teach you? Did God leave us directionless? Perhaps you are/grew up in either in a church which believes something different? Are you being discouraged by the people around you not to go to GOD alone for answers, but listen to them instead (red flag warning)? Or maybe its you yourself who resists going to GOD for answers? Because He answers in His time, and not yours? He can help you with any of those issues, too! You don't need anyone's permission to talk to God and ask Him to enlighten you---to HIM.

Just because Jesus saved you doesn't mean that's it. Making Jesus your LORD is key to salvation just as much, and that means going to God, honestly searching for HIS answers through the Holy Spirit---learning then obeying what HE teaches, setting aside whatever it is you "wish" to believe or cling to. If you ask for His strength in trying to understand His ways, will God ever petulantly reply , "No, I don't want to tell you, so there!"? Some people wish to think that's how God would work, but He never does. That's why they never dare ask. They just accept whatever men tell them. Easy believism.

“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?” (Luke 11:13)
But thanks be to God that though you were [once] slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (Rom 6:17, 18)


I'm not really sure what this has to do with the topic at hand. However, regarding teaching, God gave the Israelites his word through Moses and then the prophets. After that Jesus came and taught. He left 12 apostles to go out into the world and they wrote their teachings down. So we have those in addition to the OT writings. Of all of those teachings we have nothing in the Scriptures that says one has to believe in the Trinity. The idea that a person cannot be saved unless they believe in the Trinity shows up in the Athanasian Creed, not Scripture.
 
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