When did dinosaurs turn into birds?

Loudmouth

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Still nonsense. We are not monkeys.

Since monkey is a paraphyletic term, it really isn't useful anyway. We are primates, as are the species you define as monkeys. There are monkey species that share more DNA with humans than they do with what you would define as another monkey species.

I can look at humans and what we have accomplished in the history of mankind. We have discovered some pretty amazing stuff that our ancestors were able to do without the technology we have now. And I look at the enormous advancements we have made in the technological era. Just incredible. And then I look at monkeys and see them sitting in trees throwing poo and I see reality. We were never them and they were never us. Not even from the beginning.

You still need to show why we could not evolve from what you would define as a monkey. You claim it is common sense, but you never spell it out.

Evolutionists don't see reality. They see what they want to see and believe. They desparately want to believe that we came from monkeys. Fine believe what you want. See what you want. But there is enough difference in our DNA and all that it does and accomplishes in our bodies to differentiate us from monkeys.

There is the same amount of difference between monkey species, yet you still put them into the same monkey group. Obviously, differences in DNA can not be used to exclude you from the monkey group.

Are we similar? Heck yea. I don't need some scientist to tell me, "hey the monkeys kind of look like us." Cool. But similarity does not mean same.

Phylogenies do mean evolution, as has been explained to you over and over, and you still continue to ignore that evidence.

But there is not empirical evidence that can be verified that we did indeed evolve from the same ancestor.

I already gave you the ERV evidence, and you continue to stick your head in the sand whenever it is brought up.

That's two pieces of evidence you ignore: phylogenies and ERVs.

Until you address them, you are just being dishonest.
 
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Speedwell

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The other point is that other scriptures confirm what Genesis says about creation. God gave Moses the law and commandments and in that law he told Moses directly that he made the world and all that is in it in six days. Ex 20:11.

Exodus 20 begins, "And God spoke these words, saying..." In other words, what follows is a quote. Except that Exodus 20:11 is differently voiced than what comes before or after. That may mean that Ex 20:11 is a parenthetical insertion rather than God's speech. What is the Literalist explanation for that change of voicing?


Jesus confirmed that in the beginning of creation God "made them male and female" referring to the creation of man and woman and their role with each other.
So he did and we are, indeed, men and women. But that determines the literary genre of Gen 2 exactly how? Does the fact that there really are bears make Goldilocks and the Three Bears into 100% accurate literal history?
 
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Hoghead1

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Still nonsense. We are not monkeys. Here is where we part ways with whats called common sense and reality. I can look at humans and what we have accomplished in the history of mankind. We have discovered some pretty amazing stuff that our ancestors were able to do without the technology we have now. And I look at the enormous advancements we have made in the technological era. Just incredible. And then I look at monkeys and see them sitting in trees throwing poo and I see reality. We were never them and they were never us. Not even from the beginning.

Evolutionists don't see reality. They see what they want to see and believe. They desparately want to believe that we came from monkeys. Fine believe what you want. See what you want. But there is enough difference in our DNA and all that it does and accomplishes in our bodies to differentiate us from monkeys.

https://www.icr.org/article/789

http://www.darwinconspiracy.com/ape_vs_human.php

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c018.html

http://www.uncommondescent.com/inte...-99-of-our-dna-with-chimps-claim-rises-again/

Are we similar? Heck yea. I don't need some scientist to tell me, "hey the monkeys kind of look like us." Cool. But similarity does not mean same. It does not mean we all came from the same thing. Evolutionists have to assume we did and have to suppose we did. But there is not empirical evidence that can be verified that we did indeed evolve from the same ancestor. We can guess, we can assume, we can suppose, but we cannot verify that we did in fact come from the same ancestor. I don't expect you to agree with any of what is in the links. But I found the last one very informative especially the comments where posters posted links to scientific studies and statements.

Bottom line is evolution is unverifiable. Always has been. It's assumption based upon a belief system. You can't verify it because it cannot be reproduced or tested. Its not real science.

We can verify gravity, we can verify the temperature at which water boils. We can verify all kinds of scientific hypothesis and find that the hypothesis is true. But we can't do that with evolution. Because you can't show a creature turning into another creature. You can't find a monkey turning into a human.

Evolution does not claim that we came from monkeys. That is a very common misunderstanding. There is only a small, five per cent, difference between our DNA and that of apes. Also the sites you referenced are largely creation-science sites and if I were you, I wouldn't trust them any further than I could throw them.
 
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Hoghead1

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Actually its not written poetically. Genesis was always understood to be prose not poetry. However, when science began to proclaim the age of the earth being really really old some interpreters began to try and find reasons why Genesis 1 was poetry and could not used as a literal interpretation of creation. Thus began the move to make Genesis poetry to try and make it fit what science was saying. Most scholars still believe Genesis 1 not being poetry, but some still do. It is an ongoing discussion. Most of the folks that like to convince you that Genesis 1 is poetry are progressive believers who are trying to reconcile what the bible says with what science says. They also usually have other interpretations of the scriptures which I won't go into here since it's not the place.

The other point is that other scriptures confirm what Genesis says about creation. God gave Moses the law and commandments and in that law he told Moses directly that he made the world and all that is in it in six days. Ex 20:11. Jesus confirmed that in the beginning of creation God "made them male and female" referring to the creation of man and woman and their role with each other.

These are things one cannot run away from. IF you want to buy the poetry idea go ahead. I don't believe it and I was taught by a well known and renowned Hebrew scholar.


Gen. 1 was probably designed for some sort of liturgy. It is very much like poetry, very musical. For that reason, Haydn used this as the text for his work, "The Creation."
 
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rjs330

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Evolution does not claim that we came from monkeys. That is a very common misunderstanding. There is only a small, five per cent, difference between our DNA and that of apes. Also the sites you referenced are largely creation-science sites and if I were you, I wouldn't trust them any further than I could throw them.
And I don't trust evolution sites as far as I can throw them either. You shouldn't either. They too have an agenda which is pushing evolution.

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rjs330

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Since monkey is a paraphyletic term, it really isn't useful anyway. We are primates, as are the species you define as monkeys. There are monkey species that share more DNA with humans than they do with what you would define as another monkey species.



You still need to show why we could not evolve from what you would define as a monkey. You claim it is common sense, but you never spell it out.



There is the same amount of difference between monkey species, yet you still put them into the same monkey group. Obviously, differences in DNA can not be used to exclude you from the monkey group.



Phylogenies do mean evolution, as has been explained to you over and over, and you still continue to ignore that evidence.



I already gave you the ERV evidence, and you continue to stick your head in the sand whenever it is brought up.

That's two pieces of evidence you ignore: phylogenies and ERVs.

Until you address them, you are just being dishonest.
No phylogenetic evidence so not prove evolution. You assume it does. And I've already debunked the ERV stuff. Evolution still cannot be verified because it can't be reproduced or tested. You can't verify a common ancestor either. Evolution is the one science that is definitely pseudoscience because it cannot be verified. Sorry but evolutionists are so desperate to prove it that they accept anything without actually being able to verify that what they are accepting is true. All ERV stuff shows is that the insertions are similar, the interpretation is that it proves evolution. But it's an interpretation not verification. Because you cannot verify evolution.

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Loudmouth

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And I don't trust evolution sites as far as I can throw them either. You shouldn't either. They too have an agenda which is pushing evolution.

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Do you really think there is a global conspiracy on the part of tens of thousands of scientists, including Christian scientists, to fake data?
 
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Loudmouth

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No phylogenetic evidence so not prove evolution.

We have the phylogenetic data, which I have already shown you. Ignoring the facts doesn't change the facts.

And I've already debunked the ERV stuff.

No, you haven't. We have direct observations of retroviruses producing ERVs in living populations, both in the lab and in the wild. We have retroviruses constructed from HERV-K consensus sequences that produce viable retroviruses. Both of these observations prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the ERVs found in the human genome are the product of retroviruses. You have yet to address any of these facts. You can't claim that you have debunked ERVs when you refuse to address the facts.

Evolution still cannot be verified because it can't be reproduced or tested.

You don't reproduce the hypothesis. You still don't understand how the scientific method works.

You can't verify a common ancestor either.

Common ancestors were verified by ERVs.

All ERV stuff shows is that the insertions are similar, the interpretation is that it proves evolution. But it's an interpretation not verification. Because you cannot verify evolution.

That's like saying a DNA match between a suspect and evidence found at a crime scene is not a verification that the suspect was at the crime scene. You can stick your head in the sand all you want, but all you are proving is that you can't accept the facts.
 
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Jimmy D

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And I don't trust evolution sites as far as I can throw them either. You shouldn't either. They too have an agenda which is pushing evolution.

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Evolution websites discussing evolution? Whatever next?
 
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If you believe that, then fine. However, this thread is not asking how dinosaurs, birds, and man originated. It is simply explaining how and how long it took for what we classify as "dinosaurs" to transition in to what we classify as "birds". Also, dinosaurs on the Ark wouldn't have worked out very well for many of the Ark's alleged passengers. Large carnivores such as the Tyrannosaurus Rex, the Spinosaurus, and the Giganotosaurus would have likely eaten the larger animals, and then would in all probability have fought each other to the death and eaten each other. It is not a good thing when animals that possibly weighed up to 20.9 tonnes fight each other on a boat. The danger would mostly lie in one of the creatures breaking a hole in the boat and sinking the whole ship. If Gods purpose was to save virtuous humans and the animal kingdom, he wouldn't have let the dinosaurs on the Ark.
1. The Ark has nothing to do with how dinosaurs, birds, and man originated. Genesis 1 handles that nicely.

2. What makes you think dinosaurs would be fighting each other? Put two cats who hate each other in a canoe and launch the canoe down some rapids and see if the cats concentrate on each other, or their surroundings.

3. It could be ... and it's just a pet theory of mine ... but it just could be that, if the Ark was a TARDIS booth, meaning its inside was larger than its outside, every kind of animal that boarded the Ark could theoretically have a whole square mile of space to roam around in. I know it may sound facetous, but after all, arguing that the animals would have eaten each other is borderline blasphemous, since God is the One who orchestrated the details.

4. Everyone on the Ark, including the animals, probably ate manna: a type of angels' food.
 
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rjs330

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We have the phylogenetic data, which I have already shown you. Ignoring the facts doesn't change the facts.



No, you haven't. We have direct observations of retroviruses producing ERVs in living populations, both in the lab and in the wild. We have retroviruses constructed from HERV-K consensus sequences that produce viable retroviruses. Both of these observations prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the ERVs found in the human genome are the product of retroviruses. You have yet to address any of these facts. You can't claim that you have debunked ERVs when you refuse to address the facts.



You don't reproduce the hypothesis. You still don't understand how the scientific method works.



Common ancestors were verified by ERVs.



That's like saying a DNA match between a suspect and evidence found at a crime scene is not a verification that the suspect was at the crime scene. You can stick your head in the sand all you want, but all you are proving is that you can't accept the facts.
I've already debunked the erv hypothosis with factual data. You just don't believe it. That's fine. I believe my data You believe yours. Your entitled.

I can't really believe we have come to science to having to verify their hypothosis. Then how the neck do you believe in anything science stats. By your definition your erv argument is worthless. You can't verify thsts it's a fact because science doesn't verify. So evolutionists can claim anything they want. How convienent. Since they don't have to verify their hypothosis they can make any discovery or idea say it shows evolution. If they don't have to prove evolution then how can they staunchly say it's true? So nothing proves evolution.

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Hoghead1

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I've already debunked the erv hypothosis with factual data. You just don't believe it. That's fine. I believe my data You believe yours. Your entitled.

I can't really believe we have come to science to having to verify their hypothosis. Then how the neck do you believe in anything science stats. By your definition your erv argument is worthless. You can't verify thsts it's a fact because science doesn't verify. So evolutionists can claim anything they want. How convienent. Since they don't have to verify their hypothosis they can make any discovery or idea say it shows evolution. If they don't have to prove evolution then how can they staunchly say it's true? So nothing proves evolution.

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Sorry, but your understanding of both evolution and science is way, way off base.
 
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Hoghead1

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And I don't trust evolution sites as far as I can throw them either. You shouldn't either. They too have an agenda which is pushing evolution.

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Basically, evolution is pushed because that makes sense; it is a central tenet in science. Is science being biased because it pushes a heliocentric cosmology with a spherical earth, which completely debunks the biblical cosmology?
 
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Is science being biased because it pushes a heliocentric cosmology with a spherical earth, which completely debunks the biblical cosmology?
Not if God created the universe geocentric in 4004 BC, then restructured it to its current configuration circa 710 BC.

Which, IMO, should put an end to the "unmoveable earth" theory that says, in effect, the Bible is wrong if taken literally.

IOW, bye-bye Big Bang.

Pwned by the Unmoveable Earth Theory you guys like to harp on.
 
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Jimmy D

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Not if God created the universe geocentric in 4004 BC, then restructured it to its current configuration circa 710 BC.

Which, IMO, should put an end to the "unmoveable earth" theory that says, in effect, the Bible is wrong if taken literally.

IOW, bye-bye Big Bang.

Pwned by the Unmoveable Earth Theory you guys like to harp on.

You're sounding like Dad now.
 
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You're sounding like Dad now.
Who do you want me to sound like? Mary Baker Eddy?

We're already accused of being splintered into some 38,000 different sects.

How many more do you want? :eek:
 
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Loudmouth

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I've already debunked the erv hypothosis with factual data.

All you did was link to a video that I have already refuted. You haven't presented any data, so to claim that you believe in some mysterious non-existent data is simply dishonest.

Let's see if you can answer one question. How can you argue that ERVs are not the result of retroviral insertion when we can watch retroviruses produce ERVs both in the lab and in the wild. Here is more from another thread that you are still avoiding. You can't claim you have debunked anything until you address the actual hypothesis:

We identify them as retroviruses because ERVs have the usual complement of viral genes flanked by long tandem repeats (LTRs) at the beginning and end of the ERV.

retrovirus.jpg


On an interesting note, scientists have aligned these different ERVs, found the consensus sequence, and reconstructed a model ancestral viral genome. What they got was a functional retrovirus:

“Here, we derived in silico the sequence of the putative ancestral “progenitor” element of one of the most recently amplified family—the HERV-K family—and constructed it. This element, Phoenix, produces viral particles that disclose all of the structural and functional properties of a bona-fide retrovirus, can infect mammalian, including human, cells, and integrate with the exact signature of the presently found endogenous HERV-K progeny.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1665638/

One important thing to note is that they had to remove the mutations from these sequences in order to get a functional retrovirus. This is NOT consistent with a scenario where widely shared ERVs are the source for new retroviruses. If ERVs were producing new retroviruses then you wouldn’t need to remove the mutations as part of a consensus sequence in order to get a functional retrovirus. The evidence is clearly in favor of ERVs being the product of retroviral insertions in the past which have accumulated mutations since insertion.

So why can ERVs be used as genetic markers, and a test for common ancestry? As stated earlier, part of the viral life cycle is insertion into the host genome. The human haploid genome is around 3 billion bases, as is the genome of other ape species. That’s 3 billion possible places where these retroviruses can insert. When viruses insert into the genome, they don’t insert at just one base. They insert all over the place. In this study, scientists infected cells with three different retroviruses: MLV, HIV, and ASLV. After infection, they mapped where the viruses inserted into the host genome. Below is map of where those viruses inserted, broken down in the 23 human autosomal chromosomes and the X chromosome.


pbio.0020234.g001.jpg


Relationship between Integration Sites and Transcriptional Intensity in the Human Genome

The human chromosomes are shown numbered. HIV integration sites from all datasets in Table 1 are shown as blue “lollipops”; MLV integration sites are shown in lavender; and ASLV integration sites are shown in green. Transcriptional activity is shown by the red shading on each of the chromosomes (derived from quantification of nonnormalized EST libraries, see text). Centromeres, which are mostly unsequenced, are shown as grey rectangles.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC509299/

As everyone can see, the viruses inserted all over the place, into all chromosomes.


I can't really believe we have come to science to having to verify their hypothosis. Then how the neck do you believe in anything science stats. By your definition your erv argument is worthless. You can't verify thsts it's a fact because science doesn't verify.

The distribution and sequence of ERVs are facts, and they verify the hypothesis that humans and chimps share a common ancestor. That's how science works. You verify hypotheses with facts.
 
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I would also like to address your allegation that I was almost blaspheming your God. I did not intend to defame or mock God in any way when I made my reply, and I'm not quite sure how what I did is blasphemy.
I don't think in any way that was your intent.

Sorry for the confusion.
Leftist #7 said:
I'm willing to apologize or defend myself if you can explain how I was being borderline blasphemous.
No apology necessary. :)
Leftist #7 said:
4. I've done some research and manna is not described anywhere but in Exodus, when Moses is leading the Israelites to Canaan.
Here are the verses containing the word "manna:"

Ex 16:15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.
Ex 16:31 And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.
Ex 16:33 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omer full of manna therein, and lay it up before the LORD, to be kept for your generations.
Ex 16:35 And the children of Israel did eat manna forty years, until they came to a land inhabited; they did eat manna, until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan.
Nu 11:6 But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.
Nu 11:7 And the manna was as coriander seed, and the colour thereof as the colour of bdellium.
Nu 11:9 And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it.
De 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
De 8:16 Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;
Jos 5:12 And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.
Ne 9:20 Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.
Ps 78:24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Re 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.


The reference to angels' food is here ...

Psalm 78:24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
Psalm 78:25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.
Leftist #7 said:
The main problem I have with this argument, besides how the manna got on the ship in the first place ( I doubt that food can actually fall from the sky spontaneously ) is this;
All Noah would have needed to feed everyone was a barrel of manna.

Remember how God fed the widow of Zarephath?

1 Kings 17:14 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the LORD sendeth rain upon the earth.

Instant replenishment.

And notice too, I bolded the part where food did indeed "fall from the sky."

Leftist #7 said:
... how would the carnivorous animals have sustained themselves on something that is almost certainly not meat?
They didn't need to eat meat.

Notice here ...

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Imagine that!

Meat growing on trees!
Leftist #7 said:
God is an explanation, I suppose, but I would like an explanation that does not involve his divine intervention.
Now here I can't help you.

I'm neither a deist, nor a uniformitarian.

If you want a deist's answer, perhaps Warden_of_the_Storm could help you here?

The crux of most ... if not all ... of my explanations is: GOD DID IT.
 
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Now you see the problem here is not mostly the fact that the animals would not get the correct nutrients, but that they are simply incapable of digesting fruits, vegetables, and other plants.
Isaiah 65:25a The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat.
Leftist #7 said:
I would also like to apologize for my mistake about where in The Bible manna was described. You did get me on that one.
Not a mistake worthy of apologizing for. :)
 
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