keras said in post 298:
The KJV isn't 'hate speech' . . .
That's right. But in the future, the KJV will still be declared to be hate speech by the government, because the KJV says that homosexuality is a sin (e.g. Romans 1:26-27), and that people of other religions are damned (e.g. John 3:36, Galatians 1:6-9).
keras said in post 298:
. . . but it surely is one of the worst ways most Christians have been confused and fooled by false doctrines.
Note that the KJV doesn't promote any false doctrines.
keras said in post 298:
The idea it is the only [near] perfect translation is one of Satan's best deceptions.
Some versions of the Bible aren't translations of the original Hebrew and Greek words, but are more like paraphrased interpretations, which when checked against the original Hebrew and Greek words (by using, for example, a Strong's Concordance and Hebrew and Greek Dictionary) say something completely different than the original, inspired text. The KJV is a fairly literal translation, and so usually avoids this problem. Also, the words of the KJV aren't constantly changing, like how new editions of the NIV are always coming out with some of the words changed. So you can remember key words and phrases in the KJV and use a Strong's Concordance (which is tied to the KJV) to help you find a particular verse that you are thinking of.
Also, believers don't have to worry about the KJV being watered-down over time, until it is "politically correct" (and so acceptable to the government).
keras said in post 298:
. . . no mention of Assyria in your quotes.
Note that Amos 5:18-20 is addressing the ancient northern kingdom of Israel (Amos 5:1,4-6,21-27) before God brought punishment and defeat to it (Amos 2:6,14-16, Amos 3:1 to 5:27) in 722 BC at the hands of the ancient Assyrians, who took Israel into captivity into Assyria, "beyond Damascus" (Amos 5:27).
keras said in post 298:
Did Israel meet their God at that time? Amos 4:12
Amos 4:12 Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel.
Note that this can mean prepare to die.
keras said in post 298:
A lot of people think the 'born in one day', refers to the State of Israel. I'm pleased you don't, because that is wrong. Israel took 50 years the come to fruition.
However, your idea of it applying it to the Return is also wrong . . .
Note that it wasn't said that Isaiah 66:7-9 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming, but that it could be the same thing as Revelation 12:2,5, which will occur mid-tribulation.
keras said in post 298:
Isaiah 66 goes on to describe the Lords Day of wrath . . .
Which is at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:15). I.e., Isaiah 66:15-16 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) and with his sword, and the slain of the Lord shall be many (Revelation 19:11-21).
keras said in post 298:
. . . then how His people will gather in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5 . . .
This is millennial.
keras said in post 298:
. . . the Day He places His sign upon them. Isaiah 66:19 . . .
This is millennial.
keras said in post 298:
. . . Revelation 7:3
This is after the 6th seal, during the tribulation. But note that there is nothing here (or anywhere else) about the church, or even just its 144,000 part (Revelation 7:4), all going to live in Israel at that time.
keras said in post 298:
Isaiah 4:5 says it is God's glory that will be over all, not Jesus Presence yet.
Isaiah 4:5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
Note that this can occur at Jesus' 2nd coming.
keras said in post 298:
Zechariah 13:1-9 is entirely to do with the sinful and impure inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Note that Zechariah 13:7 referred to the Christian disciples at the time of Jesus' 1st coming (Matthew 26:31).
keras said in post 298:
The Jewish people, not Christians. It applies to them today, and only a remnant will be saved. ....They will say: The Lord is our God.
Note that the earliest Christians were Jewish people, yet only a remnant of them (Romans 11:5).
keras said in post 298:
Possibly a partial fulfilment then, but none of Isaiah 22 seems to apply to the Bab. conquest.
Note that Isaiah 22:15-17 can refer to a contemporary of Jeremiah the prophet, being taken into the Babylonian Captivity.
keras said in post 298:
It is Iran, Syria and Arabia that are mentioned in Isaiah 22:6
Isaiah 22:6 And Elam bare the quiver with chariots of men and horsemen, and Kir uncovered the shield.
Here Elam refers not to Iran (Persia), but to an ancient nation which was just east of ancient Babylon, and west of Persia.
And in Isaiah 22:6, Kir could refer to a place in ancient Moab (Isaiah 15:1). The Moabites loved it when ancient Jerusalem was wiped out by Babylon (cf. Jeremiah 48:27, Zephaniah 2:8).
So Isaiah 22:6 can simply mean that some of the soldiers of Elam and Kir (not to mention other nations) joined Babylon in its attack on Jerusalem (cf. Isaiah 5:26).
keras said in post 298:
. . . a partial fulfillment, but a final Day of Reckoning for Judah awaits. Jeremiah 8:12
Jeremiah 8:12 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
Note that this can refer in its entirety to 586 BC.
keras said in post 298:
. . . a 'ruler' is a leader or president. No King mentioned in Ezekiel 40-46.
Note that in Ezekiel 46:12, for example, the original Hebrew word (nasiy': H5387) translated as "prince" can refer to a king. For the same word is used in Ezekiel 12:12-13 to refer to king Zedekiah (2 Kings 25:4-7).
keras said in post 298:
Jeremiah 30:12 and Hosea 1:11 are clear, the people will elect themselves a leader. Before Jesus Returns.
Jeremiah 30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
Did you mean Jeremiah 30:21 instead of Jeremiah 30:12?
If so, note that in Jeremiah 30:21, "their governor" could refer to "Nehemiah the governor" (Nehemiah 12:26) during the return of the Jews from their Babylonian Captivity (Jeremiah 30:18). It could also refer to Jesus during the millennium (Zechariah 14:9-11), after the captivity which will occur right before his 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-4).
Regarding Hosea 1:11, note that this also can refer to the millennium, when the "one head" of Israel will be Jesus (cf. Isaiah 9:6-7). When Hosea 1:11 says that they will "appoint themselves" one head, the original Hebrew word (suwm: H7760) translated as "appoint" can mean "regard", in the sense of giving heed to, such as regarding (suwm) God's Word in Exodus 9:21, or regarding (suwm), in the sense of caring about, that people are perishing in Job 4:20. So the original Hebrew translated as they shall "appoint themselves one head" can simply mean "they shall give regard to one head". I.e., they will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is their one true king (Isaiah 43:15, John 1:49, John 12:13).
keras said in post 298:
When Jesus Returns, He will rule the earth, His saints with Him.
That's right (Revelation 20:4-6).
keras said in post 298:
But what you miss, is the preparation and testing of those people who will go alive into the Millennium with Jesus. Daniel 11:31-35 tells us about their testing and Revelation 12:6-17 say how some will be protected and some will face further testing.
Note that neither of those passages has been missed. And neither passage requires that the entire church will be living in Israel at that time.
keras said in post 298:
Any child reading those passages for the first time, would never think they are all the same event. And you are fairly lonely with that idea, with most Bible scholars.
Note that there is nothing in the passages of Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Revelation 20:7-9, or Psalms 83 that would necessarily cause even a child to think that those passages cannot possibly be referring to the same event.
keras said in post 298:
For although Saddam did rebuild some of it, Babylon city remains virtually uninhabited and because of its inland location, cannot be the Babylon of Jeremiah 51:52-58, to be destroyed by a tsunami. verse 55
Note that the Antichrist could make the literal Babylon-city in Iraq his world capital. And Jeremiah 51:55b can be the same as Jeremiah 51:42, in which the waters can be figurative of nations of peoples (cf. Revelation 17:1,15).
keras said in post 298:
In no way does Isaiah 13:1-22 describe the Return.
That cruel Day of wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate.....to make mankind as scarce as fine gold...to shake the earth out of her place.....and to finally destroy the Babylonish nations, never again to be inhabited.
Note that the day of wrath is the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:15). And Babylon will be destroyed at the 7th vial, immediately before the 2nd coming (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21).
keras said in post 298:
Ezekiel 32:1-32, is entirely unfulfilled prophecy. That becomes obvious when read properly. How Egypt will become an empty land, how the uncircumcised dead of Elam, [Iran] and other nations will lie dead in the Abyss. On the Day of their downfall, it will be dark [a cosmic event] and all will tremble for their lives.
Note that Ezekiel 32:2-6 can refer to an ancient defeat of Egypt by people. And Ezekiel 32:7 can simply refer to literal clouds covering the sun, moon, and stars.
Also, regarding "the pit" in Ezekiel 32:18-32, compare how in Job 33:22, the original Hebrew word (shachath: H7845) translated as "the grave" can be translated as "the pit" (Job 33:28,30), meaning the extremely deep pit which is in hell/sheol (Isaiah 14:15, Psalms 30:3, Job 11:8), in the sides of which pit are the graves of the conscious souls of the unsaved dead (Isaiah 14:15,9-10, Ezekiel 32:21-23), who experience pain there (Psalms 116:3). This pit is in the "nether" (the lowermost, Hebrew: tachtiy: H8482) parts of the earth (Ezekiel 32:18-32, Psalms 63:9), and so it could reach down to the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). And it could continue past the center of the earth and continue on in a straight line up the other side of the earth almost to the surface, so that the pit is "bottomless" in that its lowest point is empty space at the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). Satan/Lucifer will be cast into this literal "bottomless pit" by an angel at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Isaiah 14:15,12).
The bottomless pit may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). At one point during the 1st half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, strange locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10).
keras said in post 298:
Joel 2:31-32 is paralleled by Revelation 6:12-17 All at least 7 years before the Return.
Joel 2:31 indeed refers to Revelation 6:12b. But note that this will occur sometime "
before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come". For the latter is the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:15). So the 6th seal isn't actually the day of the Lord.
keras said in post 298:
Assyria isn't mentioned in Amos 1:1-15.
Note that it doesn't have to be, in order for Amos 1 to be referring to God's judgment against various ancient nations by the hands of the Assyrians.
keras said in post 298:
The Assyrian conquest of the Northern tribes is prophesied in Amos 7:1-17
Regarding Amos 7:1, it was referring to a literal locust invasion which was seen by Amos the prophet in a vision, and which God was about to send against the ancient kingdom of Israel in the time of King Jeroboam (Amos 1:1). This locust invasion was to eat up all the literal growth of grass sprouted up in the fields of the ancient kingdom of Israel after King Jeroboam's mowings of the grass (Amos 7:1b). But God made sure that the locust invasion didn't happen (Amos 7:3), after Amos prayed that it not happen (Amos 7:2).
keras said in post 298:
Amos 1 and Amos 2:1-5, is solely future, where the Lord Himself will send fire upon those peoples mentioned.
Note that Amos chapters 1-2 can refer to God's judgment against various ancient nations by the hands of the Assyrians and/or the subsequent Babylonians. Compare Isaiah 10:5-6. Also, ancient armies used fire to destroy the cities they conquered (cf. Joshua 8:20).
keras said in post 298:
.. . your constant reiteration of the G/M war at the end of the Millennium, proves your inability to see that the Lord cannot be present as proved in: Ezekiel 38:23, Ezekiel 39:7, Ezekiel 39:22, Ezekiel 39:27-29
Note that none of those verses says or requires that Jesus' 2nd coming won't have occurred by that time. For Ezekiel 39:22, for example, like the other verses, won't be fulfilled until after the future millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-10). Ezekiel 39:22 means that near the end of the safe time of the future millennium (Ezekiel 38:11), the mortal Israelites living on the earth will have become complacent and backslidden away from God (Ezekiel 39:26,7). So, after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), as a punishment, God will let them be taken into captivity (Ezekiel 39:23-29) during the Gog/Magog time (Ezekiel 38:11-13). God will then bring judgment against Gog and Magog, and the mortal Israelites will return to being faithful to God (Ezekiel 39:21-29).
keras said in post 298:
Plain scripture reading does require that Jesus destroys the armies of the Anti-Christ at His Return by the Sword of His Word and the bodies of the slain will become food for the birds.
Indeed (Revelation 19:19-21).
keras said in post 298:
NOT by fire, that will destroy the enemies on the Lord's Day of wrath, years BEFORE the Return.
Note that nothing says or requires "not by fire". For the Lord's day of wrath is his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:15), when he will come with fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).
keras said in post 298:
. . . the Bible plainly states that the Lord will only be revealed to His saints, when He sends fire upon the world.
Note that nothing in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 says or requires that the Lord will only be revealed to his saints at that time.
keras said in post 298:
At the glorious Return, fire is NOT mentioned. He doesn't destroy anyone by fire at that time.
Note that fire is mentioned at his return, in Isaiah 66:16 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
keras said in post 298:
Saying the Sixth Seal isn't the actual Day of the Lord, as clearly stated in Revelation 6:17, is a serious violation of the Revelation of Jesus.
Actually, it isn't. For note that the people quoted in Revelation 6:17 could be just as mistaken as Job was when he said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11).
keras said in post 298:
So God want's His holy Land to be nuked?
Note that God could allow a part of the holy land (e.g. central Tel Aviv) to be nuked by Arab, Islamic terrorists, just as he allowed the holy land to be turned into a useless desert by the Arabs, for centuries, before the Jews returned in the 20th century, and by their labors began to make the land bloom again.
keras said in post 298:
To be polluted with radiation? No way!
Note that Jesus can remedy any radiation problem, at his 2nd coming.
keras said in post 298:
No, He has a better Plan, He will use His storehouse, the sun to send fire that will clear and cleanse the Land. Deuteronomy 32:43
Note that Deuteronomy 32:43 can refer to Jesus' 2nd coming. For compare Deuteronomy 32:41-42 with Revelation 19:15,21. And compare Deuteronomy 32:43 with Zechariah 14:2-21.
keras said in post 298:
All of Ezekiel 37:1-28, is pre-Millennial.
Note that nothing says or requires that.
keras said in post 298:
Ezekiel 37:24 says David will be King over the rejoined and restored Israelites.
After his resurrection at the 2nd coming.
keras said in post 298:
But we know from Jeremiah 30:21 and Hosea 1:11, that the leader of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, will be a man in the spirit of David. The true Son of David comes later, at the Return. It is only be the Lord's actions, that they will know that He is with them.
Note that Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11, and Isaiah 62:1-5 can refer to the returned Jesus and the millennium.
keras said in post 298:
Don't you understand, there is now no Jew or Gentile, all Christians are one people in the Lord.
Are you thinking of the following verse?
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
If so, note that here, Paul can't possibly mean that there are no believers who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, because elsewhere he shows, for example, that believers remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 doesn't mean that there are no believers who are males or females, for clearly we are still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16; 1 Peter 3:7a).
So Galatians 3:28 can only mean that there is no distinction between believing Jews and Gentiles, or between believing males and females, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).
keras said in post 298:
Jeremiah 32:37-44, describes how all the Lord's people will be gathered and will live in the holy Land in prosperity. They will find the title deed of Jeremiah's, as proof of their ownership and they will be faithful to God, not as the ancient Israelites failed to be. The fulfillment of God's promises to the Patriarchs.
Note that Jeremiah 32:37-44 can refer to the return of the Jews from their Babylonian Captivity (cf. Jeremiah 32:44c), and to the return of the Jews from their future captivity which will occur right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21).
keras said in post 298:
So why is the reconciliation of Malachi 4:6 still unfulfilled?
Note that Malachi 4:6 was fulfilled in the time of John the Baptist (Luke 1:17) in those Jews who heeded his acclamation regarding Jesus in John 1:29.
keras said in post 298:
A CME is the only viable explanation for what Joel 2:1-11 describes.
Actually. it isn't. For note that Joel 2:1-27 can refer poetically to a literal locust invasion which destroyed ancient Israel's crops (Joel 2:25) sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD (Joel 2:28-29, Acts 2:16-18).
keras said in post 298:
Joel 2:2 specifically says: the Day of the Lord is a Day of dense cloud and fog.......locusts have nothing to do with it.
Note that the day of the Lord in Joel 2:1-27 can refer to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. And Joel 2:2 can refer to a huge cloud of literal locusts darkening the skies of Israel.
keras said in post 298:
Poetic hyperbole rubbish! Joel 2:25 merely states the Lord will recompense for previous disasters.
Note that Joel 2:25 shows that it was literal locusts and other plant-destroying insects which God considered to be "my great army which I sent among you". Compare how "a strong people set in battle array" (Joel 2:5) can bring to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands", i.e. distributed into ranks (Hebrew: "chatsats": H2686) (Proverbs 30:27). Similarly, "they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks" (Joel 2:7) again brings to mind another poetic description of a literal locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands" (Proverbs 30:27). And Joel 2:20 can mean that God's literal locust "army" (Joel 2:25) came from the north into the land of Israel, and that the swarm was eventually sent off by God into the barren desert, where the locusts died of starvation and their millions of dead bodies rotted in the sun and sent up a great stench.
Joel 2:28-29 shows that the locusts devoured ancient Israel's crops sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD. For Joel 2:28-29 began to happen sometime "afterward", sometime after the locust invasion of Joel 2:1-27. And Joel 2:28-29 began to happen at the Acts 2 day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-18).
keras said in post 298:
There is no break after Isaiah 30:26 in my modern Bible translation. Another example of KJV translators bias.
Note that nothing requires a bias in the KJV. For Isaiah 30:27 can indeed take a step back chronologically from Isaiah 30:26, like how, for example, Matthew 14:3 takes a step back chronologically from Matthew 14:2.
keras said in post 298:
Neither Isaiah 30:25-33 or 2 Thess 1:7 are about the Return. The Lord's 'coming in fire' does not happen then.
Isaiah 30:25-26 can be millennial, while Isaiah 30:27-33 can refer to the prior 2nd coming, which is also referred to in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
keras said in post 298:
As Romans 1:18, Hebrews 10:27 and 2 Peter 3:7, tell us: this is God's judgement/punishment of the nations, by fire from the sun, years before the Return.
Note that none of those verses refer to or require any fire from the sun years before Jesus' 2nd coming.
Also, note that Romans 1:18 doesn't require that Jesus won't be seen at any of its fulfillments, such as at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11-21; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). I.e., with regard to the 2nd coming, Romans 1:18's "heaven", like Revelation 19:11's and 2 Thessalonians 1:7's "heaven", can simply be the 1st heaven, the sky/atmosphere.
Regarding Hebrews 10:27, it applies to unrepentant sinners of all times (Hebrews 10:26), and so refers to the great white throne judgment and the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).
Regarding 2 Peter 3:7, it refers to the destruction of the heavens and earth at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11 to 21:1), which is when the unsaved of all times will undergo final judgment.
keras said in post 298:
. . . it refers to all the Israelite peoples, be they descendants or grafted in. So it must happen before the Return.
Note that Ezekiel 20:34-38 can simply refer to Jesus' judging of the surviving, genetic Israelites who didn't get saved before his 2nd coming (cf. also Ezekiel 34:11-16).
keras said in post 298:
Nothing else could possibly fulfil this prophecy. Nebuchadnezzar couldn't cause the daylight to fail.
But note that Ezekiel 30:1-9, especially in its full context of Ezekiel 30:1-18, still doesn't require a CME to fulfill it. And regarding Ezekiel 30:3,18, it can simply refer to God sending literal clouds to block the light from the sun.
keras said in post 298:
But Isaiah 30:21 isn't. It fits better before that, as then all the world will see Him and know Him as He is.
Note that Isaiah 30:21 can be millennial. For the returned Jesus won't be everywhere physically. So we will still need his Spirit to direct us when we are away from him physically.
keras said in post 298:
. . . you fail to see there is only one people of God. ALL true Christian believers. Those genetic Israelites who rebel will not enter the Land. Ezekiel 20:38
But note that some elect, unsaved genetic Israelites won't become Christian believers until the 2nd coming (e.g. Romans 11:25-28). And they can then enter the land.
keras said in post 298:
2 Thess 1:7-10 does not describe the Return . . .
Actually, it does:
2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when
the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from
the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When
he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
keras said in post 298:
. . . and Rev 6:15 tell of the Lord's previous judgement of the nations. Revelation 14:17-20
Actually, Revelation 6:15 won't be previous to Revelation 14:17-20. For Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed, and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).
Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will rapture and marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.
keras said in post 298:
Revelation 14:17-20
Regarding this passage in its context, Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).
That is, Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians in our future being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do those things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do those things, even if they are then killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning that obedient believers can have the Holy Spirit's comfort at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.
Revelation 14:19-20 can refer to the Antichrist's killing of non-Christians who won't worship him (such as radical Muslims, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hardcore atheists, etc.) being God's wrath against those non-Christians. Revelation 14:20 could refer to when they get beheaded by the Antichrist (say, with one blow of a large axe, while they are kneeling), their blood will shoot up from their necks like a geyser as high as a horse's bridle. Also, in Revelation 14:20, the city could be Jerusalem, and the 1,600 furlongs is about 200 miles, so that Revelation 14:19-20 could mean that the Antichrist's beheading of people who won't worship him will begin at Jerusalem and the surrounding region, when he sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).
But when the Antichrist beheads Christians for not worshipping him (Revelation 20:4), this won't be God's wrath against those Christians, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17). For Christians are not appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
keras said in post 298:
Until you come up with a viable or even sensible alternative to explain how the sun can shine seven times brighter and not be a CME, then that is what it is.
Note that God can simply increase the amplitude of the sun's visible frequencies by 7 times (Isaiah 30:26). No CME is required. Just a brighter sun.
keras said in post 298:
It isn't Jesus' wrath that He uses to dispatch the AC's army, it is His Word.
Actually, it is both (Revelation 19:15-21).
keras said in post 298:
. . . the final destruction of His enemies does happen at the Return, but this doesn't preclude an earlier judgement of all the nations.
Note that the pre-tribulation-rapture view agrees with you. But it is still mistaken. It even says that the
entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be God's judgment of all the nations.
But the truth is that the tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's judgment or wrath, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.
And note that even the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. For the day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).
So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the 1st stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.
After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).
Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's
beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).
After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath, none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).
Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
