The Early Church is the Catholic Church

Thursday

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Orthodox Indulgences=Absolution Certificates

The practice of issuing indulgences, having existed unofficially at first, received official confirmation at the Constantinople Council of 1727. The Council was called in response to increasing Latin propaganda, spreading mainly in Syria, Mesopotamia, Palestine, and Egypt. In the thirteenth clause of "The Confession of Faith" from the Council, the text of which was compiled by Patriarch Chrysanthus of Jerusalem and was signed by Patriarchs Paisius II of Constantinople, Sylvester of Antioch, and Chrysanthus of Jerusalem, and other hierarchs in Constantinople at the time who participated in the Council, said, "The power of the forgiveness of sins, which is termed by the Eastern Church of Christ Absolution Certificates when given in writing, but by the Latins Indulgences, is given to the Holy Church by Christ. These Absolution Certificates are issued in the whole Catholic Church by the four most holy Patriarchs: Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem."

Even a theologian and expert on the canonical tradition of the Church as VenerableNicodemus of the Holy Mountain not only did not oppose, but participated in the practice of indulgences.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates
 
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James was the cousin of Jesus, not the brother. The word brother used in scripture is the same word used for cousin. His mother was another Mary.

If you don't want to do the research and learn the truth, then that is your decision.

Here's an excerpt from the article above specifically about yoru point:

Second, if we examine more closely the example of James, one of these four "brothers of the Lord" mentioned in Matthew 13:55, we discover him to be a cousin or some other relative of Jesus rather than a uterine brother. For example, Galatians 1:18-19 informs us: "Then after three years I [Paul] went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother."

Notice, the "James" of whom Paul was speaking was both a "brother of the Lord" and an "apostle." There are two apostles named James among the 12. The first James is revealed to be a "son of Zebedee." He most likely would not be the "James" referred to because according to Acts 12:1-2 he was martyred very early on. Even if it was him, his father was named Zebedee, not Joseph.

Paul more likely is referring to the second James who was an apostle, according to Luke 6:15-16. This James is revealed to have a father named Alphaeus, not Joseph. Thus, James the apostle and Jesus were not uterine brothers. Easy enough. Some will argue, however, that this "James" was not an apostle or that he was not one of the original 12. Though this is a possibility—others in the New Testament, such as Barnabas in Acts 14, are referred to as "apostles" in a looser sense—the argument from Scripture is weak. When Paul wrote about going "up to Jerusalem" to see Peter, he was writing about an event that occurred many years earlier, shortly after he had converted. He was basically going up to the apostles to receive approval lest he "should be running or had run in vain." It would be more likely he would have here been speaking about "apostles" (proper), or "the twelve."
Let me ask you this. What is the purpose of Mary’s "perpetual virginity ". Would that change anything about Mary? Would that disqualify her from any of her titles? I believe not. Sex within the confines of marriage is not a sin and does not make her any less "pure". So why does the Roman Catholic Church insist on trying to force the scriptures to interept Jesus' siblings as cousins? What is the purpose of that?

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Orthodox Indulgences=Absolution Certificates

The practice of issuing indulgences, having existed unofficially at first, received official confirmation at the Constantinople Council of 1727. The Council was called in response to increasing Latin propaganda, spreading mainly in Syria, Mesopotamia, Palestine, and Egypt. In the thirteenth clause of "The Confession of Faith" from the Council, the text of which was compiled by Patriarch Chrysanthus of Jerusalem and was signed by Patriarchs Paisius II of Constantinople, Sylvester of Antioch, and Chrysanthus of Jerusalem, and other hierarchs in Constantinople at the time who participated in the Council, said, "The power of the forgiveness of sins, which is termed by the Eastern Church of Christ Absolution Certificates when given in writing, but by the Latins Indulgences, is given to the Holy Church by Christ. These Absolution Certificates are issued in the whole Catholic Church by the four most holy Patriarchs: Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem."

Even a theologian and expert on the canonical tradition of the Church as VenerableNicodemus of the Holy Mountain not only did not oppose, but participated in the practice of indulgences.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates
So are you saying you believe in indulgences? That you can "pay" the church to get people out of purgatory early? Because of the fact that you are bringing up Nicodemus and his participation of indulgences tells me that you are using him as an example worthy of emulation. If you don't agree with "indulgences ", you are telling me that Nicodemus was wrong. Which is it?

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rakovsky

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You have already admitted that you believe "indulgences " were made up in order for the church to get money. Why then is it not possible for other doctrines and dogmas be made up for other reasons such as power, reputation, control, ect...

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Some agnostics make that criticism of Bible stories, basically that it was invented to gain a following and get tithes Like modern charismatics do. Basically, they consider modern christian churches a kind of racket.

Anyway, the Assumption has no more Connection to getting money than other Christian teachings from 30 to 300 ad.
 
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Some agnostics make that criticism of Bible stories, basically that it was invented to gain a following and get tithes Like modern charismatics do. Basically, they consider modern christian churches a kind of racket.

Anyway, the Assumption has no more Connection to getting money than other Christian teachings from 30 to 300 ad.
What about the "ad hoc" rationalizations in order to save their reputation? It doesn't have to be about money. In this case, it would be the preservation of RCC credibility to maintain authority.

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rakovsky

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Let me ask you this. What is the purpose of Mary’s "perpetual virginity ". Would that change anything about Mary? Would that disqualify her from any of her titles? I believe not. Sex within the confines of marriage is not a sin and does not make her any less "pure". So why does the Roman Catholic Church insist on trying to force the scriptures to interept Jesus' siblings as cousins? What is the purpose of that?

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Perpetual virginity was another belief from the 30 to 300 ad period.

It seems like Christians in those years believed Mary didn't have kids besides Jesus. Living within 180 years of the Bible's writing, I suppose their tradition should count for something. You don't have to even believe in the supernatural.
 
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Perpetual virginity was another belief from the 30 to 300 ad period.

It seems like Christians in those years believed Mary didn't have kids besides Jesus. Living within 180 years of the Bible's writing, I suppose their tradition should count for something. You don't have to even believe in the supernatural.
Gnosticism and Arianism were also beliefs from the 30 to 300 ad period. Many Christians believed a lot of different things that weren't true. All because of traditions that were passed orally.

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Thursday

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So are you saying you believe in indulgences? That you can "pay" the church to get people out of purgatory early? Because of the fact that you are bringing up Nicodemus and his participation of indulgences tells me that you are using him as an example worthy of emulation. If you don't agree with "indulgences ", you are telling me that Nicodemus was wrong. Which is it?

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You can't and never have been able to buy indulgences. That is a false teaching and not part of Catholic teaching.

Indulgences are scriptural.

Matt 6:3
3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Col 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
 
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Thursday

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Gnosticism and Arianism were also beliefs from the 30 to 300 ad period. Many Christians believed a lot of different things that weren't true. All because of traditions that were passed orally.

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The Catholic Church defeated those and all other heresies and remains rooted in the faith of Christ.
 
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You can't and never have been able to buy indulgences.

Indulgences are scriptural.

Matt 6:3
3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Col 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
In matthew, those are not indulgences. Those are just acts of charity. You do know the difference right? The other verses has nothing to do with either indulgences or charity. It is about sufferings. The closest thing you can get to that is penance.

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Thursday

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The Catholic Church defeated those and all other heresies and remains rooted in the faith of Christ.
And my point is that just because a belief has been around since 30 to 300 ad does not mean it is biblically true.

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rakovsky

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What about the "ad hoc" rationalizations in order to save their reputation? It doesn't have to be about money. In this case, it would be the preservation of RCC credibility to maintain authority.

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I don't know what you mean in this case.
Basically Jason the first three generations of Christians believed in miracle stories like the harrowing of hell and the assumption and jesus changing water into wine and taught we should use holy oil and can sometimes survive poison like in mark 16.

Starting in the late renaissance period people started questioning these beliefs in the West. Obviously the beliefs not in the Bible like the Assumption got more skepticism, but so did miracle beliefs in the Bible itself. Reformed Protestants started teaching that exorcisms don't work after 100 ad or so and then started saying that demoniacs are just a way of talking about the insane. That is what Reformed theologian J Mede taught.

Reformed Protestants in their mentality are somewhere between the 1st to 4th century nonRC Christians and modern skeptical Christian Unitarians.
 
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Thursday

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And my point is that just because a belief has been around since 30 to 300 ad does not mean it is biblically true.

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That's a valid point. However, if the Catholic Church has been teaching the same thing for 1900 years and it is scripturally sound, then why doubt it?

Why assume that someone 1500 years later understood the teachings of the apostles better than those who learned the gospel from the apostles?
 
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rakovsky

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And my point is that just because a belief has been around since 30 to 300 ad does not mean it is biblically true.

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That is kind of like saying that just because the apostles taught something doesn't make it biblically true.

I don't know what is the point of asserting that. Christianity is not only the things stated explicitly in the bible. The doctrine of Trinity must be deduced from the bible, it's not explicit.
 
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Thursday

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Indulgences = you give something or give up something to get something in return. Which is selfish in nature.

It's selfish to want to go to heaven, but that doesn't mean it is a bad idea.

You obviously didn't read the article and you don't know much about indulgences other than what you have read from anti Catholic propaganda.
 
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rakovsky

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Orthodox Indulgences=Absolution Certificates

The practice of issuing indulgences, having existed unofficially at first, received official confirmation at the Constantinople Council of 1727. The Council was called in response to increasing Latin propaganda, spreading mainly in Syria, Mesopotamia, Palestine, and Egypt. In the thirteenth clause of "The Confession of Faith" from the Council, the text of which was compiled by Patriarch Chrysanthus of Jerusalem and was signed by Patriarchs Paisius II of Constantinople, Sylvester of Antioch, and Chrysanthus of Jerusalem, and other hierarchs in Constantinople at the time who participated in the Council, said, "The power of the forgiveness of sins, which is termed by the Eastern Church of Christ Absolution Certificates when given in writing, but by the Latins Indulgences, is given to the Holy Church by Christ. These Absolution Certificates are issued in the whole Catholic Church by the four most holy Patriarchs: Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem."

Even a theologian and expert on the canonical tradition of the Church as VenerableNicodemus of the Holy Mountain not only did not oppose, but participated in the practice of indulgences.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates
Sounds like a potential controversy for some modern EO theologians to explain.

There are probably some big differences in emphasis and practice.
 
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rakovsky

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If we want to talk about "motive", I think it boils down to pride. The Roman Catholic Church wants to save face. Rather that confessing that their theology was flawed, they instead made "ad hoc" explanations in order to justify and rationalize their flawed theology. As a result, more flawed theology was built upon said "ad hoc" rationalizations. Which is why you now find things like the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture.

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Some things you listed were taught in the original church of 30 to 300 ad and Reformed Protestants 1500 years later don't want to accept them. Other things you mentioned were made up by the RC church centuries after 300 ad.

I think original Christianity is the religion of the early christians. You can say No, its only what Jesus taught. But nowadays some skeptics debate whether Jesus even taught every teaching written in the Bible after his time. For example, in Acts, Peter gets told by God in a vision he can eat anything, basically nothing is impure to eat. But that was not said by Jesus in the gospels. Jesus never said that the New Testament books were all correct.

So it depends what beliefs we are going to use to define christianity. If we accept the Bible, we might as well as accept the other writings and beliefs that the early Christians taught.
 
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