2Thessalonians2:7 explained

ebedmelech · May 14, 2016

The sheer problem many have with this passage is trying to make it fit us today. Simply ask the question who was 2 Thessalonians addressed to?

The answer is 2 Thessalonians 1:1:
Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

This is who the letter was speaking to! Paul was preparing THEM for the tribulation...NOT US. As we read it...we should take it as an example of how we should face persecution...from what Paul wrote to them of the evil persecutions they were about to face, and in fact did face.

Look at 2 Thessalonians 2:5:
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

Once again, proof that this Paul was speaking to the Thessalonian Church warning them! This is a HISTORICAL writing! Paul was warning them of the Neronic persecution that came upon them in their lifetime!

Think of the many persecutions of Christians since that time and all the evil in the history of the world against the church. To think this is a future event is just a wrong headed approach to the passage...JUST FLAT WRONG!

vinsight4u · May 14, 2016

vinsight4u · May 14, 2016

ebedmelech · May 14, 2016

vinsight4u said:
Paul was wanting them to remember that he had told them
the writings of Daniel as to the man that will exalt himself.
This is going to help them realize that the time of Jesus
Christ returning is a long ways off. First, the world must come
to the times written in Daniel 11-12.

Compare 2 Thessalonians 2:4 to Daniel 11:36.

No. That's what you're saying vinsight4u. Paul didn't say any of that! He never quoted Daniel. You're surmising that. We know Paul can quote scripture very clearly because he does it in MANY of his letters. So if he wanted to correlate this to Daniel, he would have done so.

Furthermore, Daniel 11:36 had already happened through Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the temple being retaken and cleansed in the Maccabean revolt.

None of that is the point of this passage. The point is Paul told the Thessalonian saints to expect these things...and in this thread the OP is trying to say this event is yet future...when in fact...it is not!

Postvieww · May 14, 2016

ebedmelech said:
The sheer problem many have with this passage is trying to make it fit us today. Simply ask the question who was 2 Thessalonians addressed to?

The answer is 2 Thessalonians 1:1:
Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

This is who the letter was speaking to! Paul was preparing THEM for the tribulation...NOT US. As we read it...we should take it as an example of how we should face persecution...from what Paul wrote to them of the evil persecutions they were about to face, and in fact did face.

Look at 2 Thessalonians 2:5:
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

Once again, proof that this Paul was speaking to the Thessalonian Church warning them! This is a HISTORICAL writing! Paul was warning them of the Neronic persecution that came upon them in their lifetime!

Think of the many persecutions of Christians since that time and all the evil in the history of the world against the church. To think this is a future event is just a wrong headed approach to the passage...JUST FLAT WRONG!

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Paul talking to the church at the church of the Thessalonica, but he was talking about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and out gathering unto him yet future.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

They were concerned that day was “at hand.”

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 things must happen before the coming and the gathering. 1. A falling away and 2. The man of sin be revealed. Neither of those things had happened.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This did not happen in 70 AD.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul had spoken of this before.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

The man of sin would yet future be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The man of sin was not Nero or any other man of that day, it is yet future!

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This verse is why event this absolutely did not happen in 70 AD. Jesus did not come and destroy the man of sin with the brightness of His coming.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

No man in 70 AD came “after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders”

No doubt there were Christians that were persecuted in that day and even until our day but while Paul was speaking to the church of Thessalonica, the events of the coming of Christ, our gathering , the falling away , and the revealing of the man of sin did not happen in 70 AD. We should listen to Paul’s words from verse 3 “ Let no man deceive you by any means”

vinsight4u · May 14, 2016

ebedmelech · May 14, 2016

vinsight4u said:
Paul had been to their church in the past and told them the prophecy about the man that will exalt himself. This is the sermon
he wanted them to think about -remember when I was with you.
I told.....these things.
What are the things that Paul told? He had spoken to them about
the man that will exalt himself. This means he was referring to
what Daniel 11:36 says. This whole prophecy section reveals
what must come to pass before that time is near as to when
Jesus Christ will return for the church.
Daniel 11 is about times that end. What times end? Are we
supposed to see the word end - and think - move this whole
section to the time of the beast? no -Daniel is being shown
battles that unfold between various kings of the north and the
south. At times, these battles come to an end - a close. Time
passes and then those two locations go to war again.

Daniel 11:6
"And in the end of years...."
Here is where the first time of wars between Egypt and Syria
starts to wind down.
Daniel 11:13 brings in a time of - after certain years.
This is the leap to the end times.

Daniel 12:1 doesn't begin with just "And". It give us a phrase
so we know to place it back at the time of Daniel 11:40.
"And at that time..." 12:1
"And at the time of the end..." 11:40

The king exalted himself back in verse 36 and the time of trouble
is about to begin. He gains many ships and comes into the glorious land -and did what? Daniel doesn't tell us till later - at
12:1. Instead, we first find out that he will enter Israel and then
take many countries, even Egypt. When this time of trouble is over there will be a time when many that sleep in the dust of
the earth will awake. This is for bodies, not souls. Souls just moved
out of the bodies as they died in the past. Bodies sleep. lie
down

This still doesn't make your case. Paul doesn't quote any of those passages whatsoever! We know Paul (who was a Pharisee), was quite adept at the scriptures. Until you can show Paul quoting Daniel...you're speculating!

ebedmelech · May 14, 2016

Postvieww said:
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Paul talking to the church at the church of the Thessalonica, but he was talking about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and out gathering unto him yet future.

Which *coming* of Christ?

Christ came in judgement of Jerusalem in 70AD just as he said in Matthew 24:30:
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Postvieww said:
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

They were concerned that day was “at hand.”

That's right. At hand for them...NOT US. I've heard the explaining away of this before. It says Paul didn't know when Christ would return. Yet the apostle is telling the church at Thessalonica these things would befall them...that THEY should not be shaken in THEIR mind. You're making my point.

Postvieww said:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 things must happen before the coming and the gathering. 1. A falling away and 2. The man of sin be revealed. Neither of those things had happened.

Just as Josephus wrote of this very apostasy. Jesus told the apostles in Matthew 24:15-16 WHEN they should flee Judea:
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Postvieww said:
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This did not happen in 70 AD.[

It certainly did! Christians were dying left and right for refusing to say that "Caesar was Lord". These are historical facts that are wholly ignored. This is that very persecution and unless you're ignorant of the intensity of the Neronic Persecution, uor deny facts:
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/christians.htm

Postvieww said:
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul had spoken of this before.

Indeed he had! Which again makes one wonder why would he be telling them of something that would not befall them?

Postvieww said:
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

The man of sin would yet future be revealed in his time.

Indeed hew would. His Name was Nero.

Postvieww said:
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The man of sin was not Nero or any other man of that day, it is yet future!

So you say...but again to say so means the apostle Paul was wrong to prepare the Thessalonian church for something the would never see (once again).

Postvieww said:
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This verse is why event this absolutely did not happen in 70 AD. Jesus did not come and destroy the man of sin with the brightness of His coming.

He didn't if you don't understand scripture. For instance...Jesus quoted Isaiah 13:10 at Matthew 24:29...yet in Isaiah 13, Isaiah was prophesying the downfall of Babylon at the hands of the Medes. We KNOW Babylon fell at the hands of the Medes as we're told in Daniel 5:30. Unless one correlates scripture, allowing scripture to use it's own language (which this is apocalyptic language), they fall into literal error. Did any stars fall when the Medes conquered Bablyon? You see you have to correlate scripture in it's own means. For instance Lucifer is called a "star of the morning"...how are we to understand that? Is he a literal star?

Or consider stars falling to the earth of Matthew 24:29. We know if stars hit the earth, the earth would be obliterated. Therefore the passage is NOT speaking of literal stars!

Postvieww said:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

No man in 70 AD came “after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders”

No doubt there were Christians that were persecuted in that day and even until our day but while Paul was speaking to the church of Thessalonica, the events of the coming of Christ, our gathering , the falling away , and the revealing of the man of sin did not happen in 70 AD. We should listen to Paul’s words from verse 3 “ Let no man deceive you by any means”

Here again the failure to let scripture state what it means HOW it means it leads to error. The passage doesn't say HE IS SATAN. It says he comes AFTER THE WORKING of Satan. Satan influences people to do evil. Think of Nero, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. All individuals of monumental evil and murder who were heads of nations.

I'll stand on what I said!

Radagast · May 14, 2016

keras said:
Why don't you use a modern translation? The KJV requires re-interpretation at best and re-translation in verses like 2 Thess.
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 You know too, about the restraining power which ensures that he [plainly referring the Anti-Christ] will be revealed only at his appointed time. For already the secret forces of wickedness are at work, secret only for the present until the restraining hand [the Hand of God] is removed from the scene. REB.

Another desperate attempt to find a rapture to heaven, anywhere, anyhow. And another abject fail.

The quite literal ESV says much the same: And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

However, the NIV does a better translation of the Greek here than the ESV, in my view: And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

Radagast · May 14, 2016

keras said:
Word for word translation is a very poor way to gain proper understanding of another language.

Indeed. Translation cannot work properly on a "word for word" basis, particularly with very different languages (like Greek).

And using the archaic word "let" is only confusing.

Choose Wisely · May 14, 2016

Postvieww said:
Do we have to find the FIRST TRUMP in Paul's epistles to the Thessalonians?

Somewhere in the New Testament would help, where do you find it?

I noticed that I can't find the word RAPTURE in the New Testament, and yet we constantly discuss it. You might ask a Jewish rabbi about the Last Trump being the right horn shofar that is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. He should also know that the First Trump is blown on Pentecost an is the left horn shofar.

Postvieww said:
The FIRST TRUMP is blown on Pentecost, a harvest feast. The FIRST TRUMP is a shofar, rams horn.....and is considered the left horn of the ram that was caught in the thicket for Abraham to use as a sacrifice. The church will be caught up at the blowing of the FIRST TRUMP blown on Pentecost.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Scripture for the church being caught up at "the first trump"?

The Feast of Trumpets is an unfulfilled FALL harvest feast. It is for the 12 tribes. Pentecost is an unfulfilled SPRING harvest feast, as no harvest has occurred. Pentecost is for the harvest of the Church. There is a reason that Christ says
Matt 24
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Christ says summer is nigh because the harvest will occur in the summer. It will be the secret rapture of the church. For in an hour you think not the Son of Man comes. There is also reason that Christ says DOORS and not just......Even at the door.

Postvieww said:
Choose Wisely said:

The LAST TRUMP is considered the right horn of the ram. It is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast when the ELECT will be raptured.

How do you define elect and what scripture do you use for that?

In the New Testament the church is the elect.

Romans 8:33, Colossians 3:12, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 John 1:1, 2 John 1:13

Isaiah 45
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Choose Wisely · May 14, 2016

Postvieww said:
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

6th seal 1. Great earthquake 2. The great day of his wrath is come 3. Every mountain moved 4. Every island moved

7th trumpet 1. Earthquake 2. Thy wrath is come 3. Lightnings 4. Voices 5. Thunderings 6. Great hail

7th vial 1. Great earthquake 2. Fiercness of his wrath 3. Lightnings 4. Voices 5. Thunders 6. Great hail 7. Mountains were not found 8. Every island fled

The evidence is substantial these events overlap in some way. Many claim this cannot be because the book is chronological. If it is not chronological these events can overlap. Many claim these events happen more that one time. If Revelation is chronological that is true. If it is not chronological all of these can refer to the same event. What is the evidence the book is chronological? There are many more reasons that just what is posted above Revelation is not chronological.

Rev 6:17 “the great day of his wrath is come”

Rev 16:14 “great day of God Almighty”

Two great days or one?

Rev 6:17 “wrath is come”

Rev 11:18 “thy wrath is come”

Is this the same wrath?

7th seal Rev 8:5 “voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.”

7th trumpet Rev 11:19 “there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail”.

7th vial Rev16:18 “there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake”

Are all the same event? I believe they are.

6th trumpet Rev 9:14 “the great river Euphrates”

6th vial Rev 16:12 “the great river Euphrates” Same event?

Return of Christ at 7th trumpet Rev 11:18 “them that fear thy name, small and great”

Return of Christ Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

Same wording , same event.

Rev 14:8 Babylon is fallen is fallen

Rev 18:2 Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen

Same event? If all is chronological how many times can Babylon fall?

What is your evidence all is chronological?

I totally agree with what you are saying here.

Choose Wisely · May 14, 2016

vinsight4u said:
This is not showing a pre-trib anything. First, you need to find
out when the dead in Christ will rise. The 5th seal shows all
martyrs of Jesus come in killed first. That would mean even
the two witnesses that get slain near the end of the trib must
be killed by the beast that ascendeth out of the pit. The wicked
must then be merry and send gifts to one another.

There is only one resurrection of the just -for all saints.
There shall be a resurrection to life and a resurrection to
damnation. those that died in their sins/iniquity

at the last trump -for the trumpet shall sound

Luke 14:14 shows reward time is when the just are
raised - at the resurrection of the just.
Rev. 11 shows the 7th trumpet must sound before reward
time is announced. time to - judge the - reward -the saints

Hard to follow you, but seems you are confusing the tribulation and the wrath of God.

Postvieww · May 15, 2016

Choose Wisely said:
I noticed that I can't find the word RAPTURE in the New Testament, and yet we constantly discuss it. You might ask a Jewish rabbi about the Last Trump being the right horn shofar that is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. He should also know that the First Trump is blown on Pentecost an is the left horn shofar.

The Feast of Trumpets is an unfulfilled FALL harvest feast. It is for the 12 tribes. Pentecost is an unfulfilled SPRING harvest feast, as no harvest has occurred. Pentecost is for the harvest of the Church. There is a reason that Christ says
Matt 24
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Christ says summer is nigh because the harvest will occur in the summer. It will be the secret rapture of the church. For in an hour you think not the Son of Man comes. There is also reason that Christ says DOORS and not just......Even at the door.

Isaiah 45
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Choose Wisely said post # 172

I noticed that I can't find the word RAPTURE in the New Testament, and yet we constantly discuss it. You might ask a Jewish rabbi about the Last Trump being the right horn shofar that is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. He should also know that the First Trump is blown on Pentecost an is the left horn shofar.

I prefer the word resurrection. If I use the word rapture chances are it’s in the context of a rebuttal to the pre-trib doctrine. 1 Corin 15:52 says the dead will be raised and we will be changed at the “last trump”. When you claim we will be changed or caught up at the first trump that is contrary to what Paul said any way you spin it. I am not questioning feasts or trumpets blown in connection of those feasts I am specifically questioning a pre- trib (resurrection) of the church. You have not shown that to be true especially on a first trump.

The Feast of Trumpets is an unfulfilled FALL harvest feast. It is for the 12 tribes. Pentecost is an unfulfilled SPRING harvest feast, as no harvest has occurred. Pentecost is for the harvest of the Church. There is a reason that Christ says

Matt 24

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Christ says summer is nigh because the harvest will occur in the summer. It will be the secret rapture of the church. For in an hour you think not the Son of Man comes. There is also reason that Christ says DOORS and not just......Even at the door.

Jesus did not go from talking about a second coming in Matt. 24: 29-31 which is immediately after the tribulation and go right into revealing a “secret rapture” 3 ½ years before, in verses 32 &33. There is no secret “rapture” in scripture. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 tells us His coming and our gathering will come after 1. A falling away and 2. The man of sin being revealed. That is further confirmation of what Jesus said in Matthew 24: 29-31.

Isaiah 45

4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

I’m sure there are even more in the Old Testament . I believe our topic is based in the New Tesatment use of the word elect.

There is only one resurrection for the righteous dead in our future, in scripture. If you disagree please post the scripture and explain how you arrive at that theory based on what Jesus said in:

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 20: 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus only spoke of one resurrection for the righteous dead.

Choose Wisely said post # 173

I totally agree with what you are saying here.

I am glad we find a point of agreement. On this issue we are in the minority on this forum.

Postvieww · May 15, 2016

ebedmelech said:
Which *coming* of Christ?

Christ came in judgement of Jerusalem in 70AD just as he said in Matthew 24:30:
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

That's right. At hand for them...NOT US. I've heard the explaining away of this before. It says Paul didn't know when Christ would return. Yet the apostle is telling the church at Thessalonica these things would befall them...that THEY should not be shaken in THEIR mind. You're making my point.

Just as Josephus wrote of this very apostasy. Jesus told the apostles in Matthew 24:15-16 WHEN they should flee Judea:
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

It certainly did! Christians were dying left and right for refusing to say that "Caesar was Lord". These are historical facts that are wholly ignored. This is that very persecution and unless you're ignorant of the intensity of the Neronic Persecution, uor deny facts:
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/christians.htm

Indeed he had! Which again makes one wonder why would he be telling them of something that would not befall them?

Indeed hew would. His Name was Nero.

So you say...but again to say so means the apostle Paul was wrong to prepare the Thessalonian church for something the would never see (once again).

He didn't if you don't understand scripture. For instance...Jesus quoted Isaiah 13:10 at Matthew 24:29...yet in Isaiah 13, Isaiah was prophesying the downfall of Babylon at the hands of the Medes. We KNOW Babylon fell at the hands of the Medes as we're told in Daniel 5:30. Unless one correlates scripture, allowing scripture to use it's own language (which this is apocalyptic language), they fall into literal error. Did any stars fall when the Medes conquered Bablyon? You see you have to correlate scripture in it's own means. For instance Lucifer is called a "star of the morning"...how are we to understand that? Is he a literal star?

Or consider stars falling to the earth of Matthew 24:29. We know if stars hit the earth, the earth would be obliterated. Therefore the passage is NOT speaking of literal stars!

Here again the failure to let scripture state what it means HOW it means it leads to error. The passage doesn't say HE IS SATAN. It says he comes AFTER THE WORKING of Satan. Satan influences people to do evil. Think of Nero, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. All individuals of monumental evil and murder who were heads of nations.

I'll stand on what I said!

ebedmelech said:
Which *coming* of Christ?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30. The only one in our FUTURE

Christ came in judgement of Jerusalem in 70AD just as he said in Matthew 24:30:

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Did not happen. Explain verse 31 from history.

That's right. At hand for them...NOT US. I've heard the explaining away of this before. It says Paul didn't know when Christ would return. Yet the apostle is telling the church at Thessalonica these things would befall them...that THEY should not be shaken in THEIR mind. You're making my point.

No he was not telling them it would befall them. He said that 2 things had to happen first and did not say those 2 things would happen in their life time.

Just as Josephus wrote of this very apostasy. Jesus told the apostles in Matthew 24:15-16 WHEN they should flee Judea:

15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

At the very best you can claim 70AD was a type or a forshadow of what was to come. The events of 70 AD did not fulfilled all of the scripture surrounding this event. Where is the record of the cosmic events of verse 29 in history? Where is the record of anyone seeing Jesus in 70 AD coming in the clouds of heaven, or all the tribes of the earth mourning, or angels with the sound of a trumpet, or a gathering of anyone from the 4 winds? This did not happen in 70AD!

It certainly did! Christians were dying left and right for refusing to say that "Caesar was Lord". These are historical facts that are wholly ignored. This is that very persecution and unless you're ignorant of the intensity of the Neronic Persecution, uor deny facts:

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/christians.htm

There is no question this was a terrible time in 70 AD but it did not fulfill all that scripture said would happen. I read your link there is nothing written there that fulfills all of scripture. Where is the mention of Jesus returning, or the other events I listed above? ? You claim He “returned in judgment” at that time as a fulfillment of scripture is hollow and without merit!

Indeed he had! Which again makes one wonder why would he be telling them of something that would not befall them?

Simply to say until you see these 2 things happen do not be deceived by men who tell you this has happened. Good advice for us as well.

Indeed hew would. His Name was Nero.

Nero was evil but he was not the man of sin described in scripture. You have failed miserably to prove that he is.

So you say...but again to say so means the apostle Paul was wrong to prepare the Thessalonian church for something the would never see (once again).

Already addressed this point.

He didn't if you don't understand scripture. For instance...Jesus quoted Isaiah 13:10 at Matthew 24:29...yet in Isaiah 13, Isaiah was prophesying the downfall of Babylon at the hands of the Medes. We KNOW Babylon fell at the hands of the Medes as we're told in Daniel 5:30. Unless one correlates scripture, allowing scripture to use it's own language (which this is apocalyptic language), they fall into literal error. Did any stars fall when the Medes conquered Bablyon? You see you have to correlate scripture in it's own means. For instance Lucifer is called a "star of the morning"...how are we to understand that? Is he a literal star?

Or consider stars falling to the earth of Matthew 24:29. We know if stars hit the earth, the earth would be obliterated. Therefore the passage is NOT speaking of literal stars!

Isaiah 13 is yet future same as Revelation 18. Isa, 13:6 “the day of the Lord” 1 Thess 5:2 “the day of the Lord” 2 Peter 3:10 “the day of the Lord” . How many “day of the Lord’s do you find in scripture?

Yes Babylon of history fell, but there is another to come Revelation 17:5, Babylon of our past was no “Mystery”

As to the stars falling, is there anything in scripture you believe is literal? Not a problem for God to black out the sun or the moon, we have falling stars probably somewhere every night. Is that what the passage is talking about ? I don’t know but God can make it happen. Everything is not based on what you and I can explain. God stopped the sun in the sky, how did He do that?

Here again the failure to let scripture state what it means HOW it means it leads to error. The passage doesn't say HE IS SATAN. It says he comes AFTER THE WORKING of Satan. Satan influences people to do evil. Think of Nero, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. All individuals of monumental evil and murder who were heads of nations.

Go back and read my post, nowhere did I say he was satan. In fact I posted “after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders”. The rest of your above paragraph I agree with.

I'll stand on what I said!

Well my brother you are standing on shifting sand.

vinsight4u · May 15, 2016

vinsight4u · May 15, 2016

greenguzzi · May 15, 2016

vinsight4u said:
This is my calling to show people the
finer details in Scripture that they have been overlooking.

No, it isn't.

vinsight4u · May 15, 2016

2Thessalonians2:7 explained

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My dog Micah in the pic

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My dog Micah in the pic

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My dog Micah in the pic

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comes and goes

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Post-Evangelical, Social Anarchist, One of The Way

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