[MOVED] End of the world predictions are a dime a dozen and always wrong. :)

Postvieww · May 11, 2016

parousia70 said:
Well, as I imagine that world, I suppose that would be "most miserable" for you as well, right?

Seeing as you'd be forced to interpret "shortly, at hand, near, about to take place, in a very little while, this generation shall not pass, in these last days, it is the last hour..at the end of the ages, etc" as "literal." (hehehe)

It is???
Now I'm entirely unclear of your position... you are now saying His Body was Glorified BEFORE the Crucifixion?

How does that square with this?:
John 7:39
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Well, just like anything else and as I've said before, If a particular verse or passage is not explicitly explained to be metaphor in the passage itself, I look for the same or synonymous language elsewhere in scripture and see if it's used consistently metaphorically or not.

Isn't that what you do?
Isn't that what we're SUPPOSED to do?

I recommend the Book "Biblical Hermeneutics" by Milton Terry if you are genuinely asking about the proper way to determine such things...
http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Hermeneutics-Treatise-Interpretation-Testament/dp/1610102002

I contend that In Acts 1, when the cloud received Him out of their site, was the moment His body was glorified, and not a moment before, and it is unto THAT body that ours will be fashioned. It is the same Glorified Body which Jesus Had before the incarnation, at the foundation of the world.

John himself, who witnessed His post resurrection, pre ascension Body first hand with His own eyes, Indicates that He had still NOT seen His Glorified Body:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

At this point, after the Ascension, John is clear that He had NOT seen Jesus "as He is" presently, so, some sort of Appreciable Change to Jesus' body took place AFTER John last saw Him in the flesh.

I contend that "appreciable change" was the Glorification of His Body, The returning of His body back to the condition it was in before the foundation of the world, and it took place the moment the Cloud received Him out of their sight.

Jesus was NOT resurrected in His Glorified Body, He was resurrected in the Self same Body that hung on the cross and Had no different powers or attributes to it than He had before the Crucifixion (save the fact it could no longer be put to death) - you have apparently agreed with me on this above, but again your seeming agreement poses a conundrum with your simultaneous view that Jesus rose in His Glorified Body, different from the one that hung on the Cross.

I'm interested in how you reconcile those two polar opposite views.

Interesting admonition coming from the Guy who needs "shortly" to be a metaphor for 2000 years....

Well, in all honestly, I don't debate with Futurists here on CF to change THEIR view per se, rather I debate for the lurkers, the readers, who outnumber the posters here 5 or even 10 to 1, to give them a Biblical alternative to ponder and dig into..

In fact, it is to the benefit of my position NOT to sway the futurist posters here so they will continue to offer up their opposing views. It draws out the contrast for the readers to dig for themselves and make an INFORMED decision with as much conflicting information as possible, plus it sharpens my view to have it continually challenged. Contrary to many posters here who'd rather preach to the choir and get upset when their views challenged, I really love being called to account Biblically for why I believe the way I do. It forces me to be more of a Berean and "search the scriptures to see if it is so", so to that end I thank you for calling me to account for the claims I make. I'm a better Christian for it.

That said in the 15 years Iv'e been posting here, maybe 2 or three Staunch Futurist posters I've engaged have eventually adopted a preterist position, but like I said, that's secondary for me.

Parousia70 said:

It is???

Now I'm entirely unclear of your position... you are now saying His Body was Glorified BEFORE the Crucifixion?

Now you are really twisting words. You know very well I didn’t say that. Before the crucifixion, really!

His body was not exactly as before, it was flesh and bone. No mention of blood here. How is that exactly the same? I have a theory on that, but just like you can’t prove your glorification theory I can’t prove this either . It has to do with Hebrews 9:12, maybe another discussion.

How does that square with this?:

John 7:39

39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

This verse in no way says Jesus was “glorified” at some later time after His resurrection.

I contend that In Acts 1, when the cloud received Him out of their site, was the moment His body was glorified, and not a moment before, and it is unto THAT body that ours will be fashioned. It is the same Glorified Body which Jesus Had before the incarnation, at the foundation of the world.

It’s very good that you can content this but where is it spelled out like you contend in scripture??

John himself, who witnessed His post resurrection, pre ascension Body first hand with His own eyes, Indicates that He had still NOT seen His Glorified Body:

1 John 3:2

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

You are making a huge leap to give Jesus a new body from the wording in 1 John. So you believe we will have a body just like Jesus had before the incarnation, at the foundation of the world??

At this point, after the Ascension, John is clear that He had NOT seen Jesus "as He is" presently, so, some sort of Appreciable Change to Jesus' body took place AFTER John last saw Him in the flesh.

I contend that "appreciable change" was the Glorification of His Body, and it took place the moment the Cloud received Him out of their sight.

Total speculation.

Jesus was NOT resurrected in His Glorified Body, He was resurrected in the Self same Body that hung on the cross and Had no different powers or attributes to it than He had before the Crucifixion (save the fact it could no longer be put to death) - you have apparently agreed with me on this above, but again your seeming agreement poses a conundrum with your simultaneous view that Jesus rose in His Glorified Body, different from the one that hung on the Cross.

Zechariah 12: 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

To me this implies they will see His pierced body. I’m sure you will disagree but that is my belief. I see nothing in scripture that proves Jesus has a different body today than when He left this earth.
I'm interested in how you reconcile those two polar opposite views.

They are only polar in your mind. I disagree with your premise.

parousia70 · May 11, 2016

Postvieww said:
Parousia70 said:

His body was not exactly as before, it was flesh and bone. No mention of blood here. How is that exactly the same? I have a theory on that, but just like you can’t prove your glorification theory I can’t prove this either . It has to do with Hebrews 9:12, maybe another discussion.

Maybe, but there is a scriptural hurdle you need to jump over before you can get to where I think you are going with this:
Hebrews 9:12
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

I think you are attempting to draw the conclusion that since there was no blood in His resurrected body, he must have gone into heaven "once for all" to sprinkle that blood on the mercy seat prior to His resurrection, then returned to earth... correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption..

Your Hurdle is a few verses later:
Hebrews 9:24-26
For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another.— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

The writer of Hebrews infallibly proclaims that, at the time of His writing, Christ was PRESENTLY in the Heavenly Temple performing that Blood sprinkling work, Decades after the resurrection & Ascension.

Notice He does not come and go in and out of the Heavenly Temple and Sacrifice again and again as the earthly priests int eh earthly temple did.
Also notice the language...

At the time of the Penning of the Letter to the Hebrews, decades AFTER Jesus' Death, burial, resurrection and ascension, the author not only claims Christ was at that present time in the heavenly Temple performing His priestly Blood sprinkling work of atonement, notice the author also says it only happens ONCE, was happening "now" and calls that present time 2000 years ago "The end of the Ages".

I see nothing in scripture that proves Jesus has a different body today than when He left this earth.

Jn 17:5, 24
O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was....“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

keras · May 11, 2016

parousia70 said:
No, that's you OPINION.. Stating your OPINION that because 1900+ years have passed Soon must mean 1900+ years is circular reasoning and does not in and of itself PROVE the contention.
You are claiming your Bias is the evidence that proves your Bias.
Soon meant soon, and I have shown countless Scriptural examples to support that. That you must rely on your perception of extra biblical information not found in any scripture to prop up your contention that soon does not mean soon, should give our readers pause, as they reflect on which of our views has more scriptural support.

This reply supports my contention that you ignore our refutations. I repeat my scriptures that prove Jesus did prophecy the 2000 year gap: Luke 13:32 and Hosea 6:2, both use God's timing of 1 day in heaven equals 1000 earthly years. It isn't circular reasoning at all, just the fact that 1986 years HAVE passed and we now face the last days events, as all the many unfulfilled prophesies so graphically describe.

parousia70 said:
But the Jewish People in the Holy land today have ZERO relationship to the pre desolation Hebrews.
Not genetically, not politically not religiously.
They are Talmudic Jews, not Mosaic Jews, and have just as much Abrahamic blood in them as you or I do for all anyone knows.
Plus, all the prophesies of a dispersion and subsequent re gathering of the Jews into the geographic region of Israel were fulfilled at the end of the Babylonain captivity. There is not one single prophecy About a dispersion AND RE GATHERING of Jewish people into the geographic area of Israel written AFTER the Babylonian captivity. Not even one.

Yes, they were in the holy Land when Jesus came, but because they rejected Jesus, were thrown out by 135 AD. They maintained their identity thru much persecution and at last declared their new nation in 1948. This is an historical fact, that we can now see was alluded to in many prophesies: the 'fig tree budding' and Romans 3:1-2
They called it the State of Israel, as Isaiah 48:1 says, but they are still treacherous and rebellious, Isaiah 48:8 & 4, and will face judgement on the Lord's Day of wrath. Isaiah 29:1-4, Matthew 21:43
Just who has the blood of Jacob, is the question. Only God knows, Amos 9:9, but simple calculations of the 1000 generations since the Patriarchs, proves that today there wouldn't be many that don't have some connection to them.

Hazrus · May 11, 2016

Luke 13:32 - - - about Jesus rising from the dead on the 3rd day.
Hosea 6:2 - - - the author is emphasising the speed and certainty of Israel's restoration (whenever that restoration is to take place) rather than defining a specific time period.

keras · May 11, 2016

Hazrus said:
Luke 13:32 - - - about Jesus rising from the dead on the 3rd day.
Hosea 6:2 - - - the author is emphasising the speed and certainty of Israel's restoration (whenever that restoration is to take place) rather than defining a specific time period.

Your opinion, not mine or that of many other Bible scholars.
Luke 13:33 goes on to say how Jesus will get to Jerusalem in 3 days to meet His death.
But verse 32, is prophecy, because Jesus did drive out demons and work cures when He was on earth and continues to do so spiritually for the next 2000 years, then He will come into His reward, that is: His Millennial reign.
Hosea 6 is a chapter about the restoration of all Israel, when the Appointed day comes. Habakkuk 2:3. The time periods are quite specific; after 2 days He will revive us and on the third day He will raise us to live in His presence. Obviously 24 hour days wasn't meant here and the precept of 1 day to God = 1000 years on earth, fits perfectly.

Hazrus · May 11, 2016

keras said:
Your opinion, not mine or that of many other Bible scholars.
Luke 13:33 goes on to say how Jesus will get to Jerusalem in 3 days to meet His death.
But verse 32, is prophecy, because Jesus did drive out demons and work cures when He was on earth and continues to do so spiritually for the next 2000 years, then He will come into His reward, that is: His Millennial reign.
Hosea 6 is a chapter about the restoration of all Israel, when the Appointed day comes. Habakkuk 2:3. The time periods are quite specific; after 2 days He will revive us and on the third day He will raise us to live in His presence. Obviously 24 hour days wasn't meant here and the precept of 1 day to God = 1000 years on earth, fits perfectly.

Your opinion, not mine or that of most other Bible scholars.

keras · May 12, 2016

Hazrus said:
Your opinion, not mine or that of most other Bible scholars.

I explained my view.
How exactly does Luke 13:32 fit Jesus' death and resurrection?
Hosea 6:2 does state days. That we know from Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8, can meant 1000 earthly years.
Allegorizing a clear prophecy like this is wrong and in this case denies the fact that 2000 years have nearly passed since Jesus walked this earth.

Hazrus · May 12, 2016

Hi Keras,

I was just pointing out that your assertions were also opinions, regardless of the fact that you explained how you arrived at them.

Now back to Luke 13 in particular - - - do you honestly believe it is about anything else except Jesus' death and resurrection? I would have thought this was obvious.

Hazrus · May 12, 2016

Keras, I think you are getting too caught up in the whole "day = millennium" thing. It seems like you have come up with an idea and tried to shoehorn it into specific passages without looking at the writing style, context, etc.

You've prompted me to look at some commentaries and what I have found is that mentioning 3 days often means/meant "a short time", or "not a long time", or in our common speech "not long now!". Why can't Hosea 6:2 and Luke 13:32 mean this? If you wish to assert that your view is correct you must be able to show my claim is false.

Postvieww · May 12, 2016

parousia70 said:
Maybe, but there is a scriptural hurdle you need to jump over before you can get to where I think you are going with this:
Hebrews 9:12
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

I think you are attempting to draw the conclusion that since there was no blood in His resurrected body, he must have gone into heaven "once for all" to sprinkle that blood on the mercy seat prior to His resurrection, then returned to earth... correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption..

Your Hurdle is a few verses later:
Hebrews 9:24-26
For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another.— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

The writer of Hebrews infallibly proclaims that, at the time of His writing, Christ was PRESENTLY in the Heavenly Temple performing that Blood sprinkling work, Decades after the resurrection & Ascension.

Notice He does not come and go in and out of the Heavenly Temple and Sacrifice again and again as the earthly priests int eh earthly temple did.
Also notice the language...

At the time of the Penning of the Letter to the Hebrews, decades AFTER Jesus' Death, burial, resurrection and ascension, the author not only claims Christ was at that present time in the heavenly Temple performing His priestly Blood sprinkling work of atonement, notice the author also says it only happens ONCE, was happening "now" and calls that present time 2000 years ago "The end of the Ages".

Jn 17:5, 24
O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was....“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Parousia said:

I think you are attempting to draw the conclusion that since there was no blood in His resurrected body, he must have gone into heaven "once for all" to sprinkle that blood on the mercy seat prior to His resurrection, then returned to earth... correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption..

Close but not quite. Not prior to His resurrection but after.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He told Mary not to touch Him.

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

He told Thomas to touch Him. I believe that was because sometime after His encounter with Mary and before His encounter with Thomas He did ascend to Heaven.

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered (PAST)the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained (PAST) eternal redemption

Your Hurdle is a few verses later:

No hurdle here.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

This verse doesn’t say He is offering His blood over and over, it just says now He is appearing in the presence of God for us. I would think we could both agree on that fact.

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Verse 25 & 26 affirm verse 12 He is not offering that blood over and over but did it “once for all”.

The writer of Hebrews infallibly proclaims that, at the time of His writing, Christ was PRESENTLY in the Heavenly Temple performing that Blood sprinkling work, Decades after the resurrection & Ascension.

Wrong, that is not in the text, you just “contend “ that it is.

Notice He does not come and go in and out of the Heavenly Temple and Sacrifice again and again as the earthly priests int eh earthly temple did.

Agree totally.

Also notice the language...

At the time of the Penning of the Letter to the Hebrews, decades AFTER Jesus' Death, burial, resurrection and ascension, the author not only claims Christ was at that present time in the heavenly Temple performing His priestly Blood sprinkling work of atonement, notice the author also says it only happens ONCE, was happening "now" and calls that present time 2000 years ago "The end of the Ages".

Your preterist tendencies are really popping out now. I’m surprised you are not claiming all of this says Jesus offered His blood in 70AD. Nowhere is any of these verses does it say Jesus is “performing His priestly Blood sprinkling work of atonement” verse 12 clearly says He did that “once for all”, past tense. Currently He is now in the presence of God for us, making intercession for us, Romans 8:34, Hebrews 7:25.

(previous post) I see nothing in scripture that proves Jesus has a different body today than when He left this earth.

Jn 17:5, 24

O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was....“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

None of this refers to Jesus resurrected body. CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT!

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Whatever definition you apply to glorify here it does not mean a new, changed or glorified body. Jesus said He would glorify the Father He doesn’t need a new body!

John 17: 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Jesus did not give the Father a new body here either!

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This context is not about a new body!

John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

This is not about a new body.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Jesus had not been resurrected at this point , this is not about a new body.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

This is not about a new body.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 12:16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

The context of this verse implies He was glorified in the crucifixion and resurrection. The hour was come that He be crucified not that time was come to ascend to the Father.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

John 13:32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

This does not refer to a new body.

It is my contention that many including myself have wrongly used the term glorified body where the term changed body would have been more scripturally correct 1 Corinthians 15:52. It’s one of those things most people know what you are talking about, but I can find nowhere we are said to have a glorified body.

parousia70 · May 12, 2016

Postvieww said:
Parousia said:

I think you are attempting to draw the conclusion that since there was no blood in His resurrected body, he must have gone into heaven "once for all" to sprinkle that blood on the mercy seat prior to His resurrection, then returned to earth... correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption..

Close but not quite. Not prior to His resurrection but after.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He told Mary not to touch Him.

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

He told Thomas to touch Him.

Actually, He told Mary not to "Cling to" Him.

John 20:17 NKJ
"Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'

The greek for "Cling" or "Touch" here is "Haptomai" which means:
to fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to.

This is not a simple finger extended "touching" of Christ being described here as Thomas did, this is Mary seeing the risin Christ and, not surprisingly, CLINGING to Him.

Jesus tells her not to Cling to Him, in effect because Both He and She had important work yet to do. They would have an eternity to cling to eachother, but Christ effectively told her to "let go" at that point because there was yet unfinished business they both needed to attend to.

Christ asended to the Father once, and it is recorded for us at the beginning of the Book of the Acts of the Apostles.

I believe that was because sometime after His encounter with Mary and before His encounter with Thomas He did ascend to Heaven.

Click to expand...

So , if I understand you correctly, you are asserting that, sometime after He came out of the tomb and appeared to Mary, but before he appeared to His apostles, that Christ ascended to heaven and presented Himslef as the firstfruits offering, then returned to earth once that offering was accepted By God.

If this is your position, I still don't see How you can reconcile it with Hebrews 9:24?
"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"

The writer of Hebrews, writing in the 60's AD, some 30 years after your proposed "ascention & return" claimed that at the time he was writing, Christ was presently in heaven offering himself as the sacrifice for us.

Your view has Him offering Himself the 2nd day after passover, returning, then ascending again and offering himself AGAIN, which the writer of Hebrews explicitly says CAN NOT BE:

Hebrews 9:25-26
"25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.'

It is my contention that many including myself have wrongly used the term glorified body where the term changed body would have been more scripturally correct 1 Corinthians 15:52. It’s one of those things most people know what you are talking about, but I can find nowhere we are said to have a glorified body.

I don't have an issue with that i suppose... it's like you said, many of our differences can be boiled down to word definitions..

I guess I would ask, If Jesus is in Heaven today occupying the self same fleshly Body that walked the earth, John didn't get that memo, as he sure describes it differently in the Revelation:

Rev 2:12
Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

Where in scripture is is said Jesus had Pure White hair like lambs wool, Flaming eyes, brass feet and a voice of rushing waters while He walked the earth?

Rev 4:2
Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3 And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance;

Is this Jesus? Is this The Father? Are they One in the Same?

Rev 5:6
6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Jesus Definitely did not look like a seven eyed, seven horned baby sheep while He walked the earth.

I think we can agree He did not look like any of these depictions when He walked the earth.

And I would also Ask, when Jesus said this:
MT 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

How is HE there? Bodily? Just His spirit?

If it's Bodily, fleshly, is he just invisible? Engaging His "Emmanuel777 Cloaking device"?

If it's just His spirit, is His Spiritless fleshly body sitting dormant In heaven while His spirit is running around earth being in the midst of His gathered people?

It seems to me you already hold a very elastic view the nature and appearance of His "body" today already, for you claim in some ways it's exactly the same as His body that hung on the cross, yet in other ways you agree it's completely different... So I'm having difficulty comprehending your objection to My view, as to me they seem very similar, save the fact that I see nothing in scripture describing the Glorified Christ in heaven looking anything like the way He looked on earth, and In fact I find EXPLICIT teaching that His appearance is NOTHING like it was on earth, indicating to me some appreciable change must have taken place after He ascended.
I'm still not sure why you would disagree with that.

Postvieww · May 12, 2016

parousia70 said:
Actually, He told Mary not to "Cling to" Him.

John 20:17 NKJ
"Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'

The greek for "Cling" or "Touch" here is "Haptomai" which means:
to fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to.

This is not a simple finger extended "touching" of Christ being described here as Thomas did, this is Mary seeing the risin Christ and, not surprisingly, CLINGING to Him.

Jesus tells her not to Cling to Him, in effect because Both He and She had important work yet to do. They would have an eternity to cling to eachother, but Christ effectively told her to "let go" at that point because there was yet unfinished business they both needed to attend to.

Christ asended to the Father once, and it is recorded for us at the beginning of the Book of the Acts of the Apostles.

So , if I understand you correctly, you are asserting that, sometime after He came out of the tomb and appeared to Mary, but before he appeared to His apostles, that Christ ascended to heaven and presented Himslef as the firstfruits offering, then returned to earth once that offering was accepted By God.

If this is your position, I still don't see How you can reconcile it with Hebrews 9:24?
"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"

The writer of Hebrews, writing in the 60's AD, some 30 years after your proposed "ascention & return" claimed that at the time he was writing, Christ was presently in heaven offering himself as the sacrifice for us.

Your view has Him offering Himself the 2nd day after passover, returning, then ascending again and offering himself AGAIN, which the writer of Hebrews explicitly says CAN NOT BE:

Hebrews 9:25-26
"25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.'

I don't have an issue with that i suppose... it's like you said, many of our differences can be boiled down to word definitions..

I guess I would ask, If Jesus is in Heaven today occupying the self same fleshly Body that walked the earth, John didn't get that memo, as he sure describes it differently in the Revelation:

Rev 2:12
Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

Where in scripture is is said Jesus had Pure White hair like lambs wool, Flaming eyes, brass feet and a voice of rushing waters while He walked the earth?

Rev 4:2
Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3 And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance;

Is this Jesus? Is this The Father? Are they One in the Same?

Rev 5:6
6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Jesus Definitely did not look like a seven eyed, seven horned baby sheep while He walked the earth.

I think we can agree He did not look like any of these depictions when He walked the earth.

And I would also Ask, when Jesus said this:
MT 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

How is HE there? Bodily? Just His spirit?

If it's Bodily, fleshly, is he just invisible? Engaging His "Emmanuel777 Cloaking device"?

If it's just His spirit, is His Spiritless fleshly body sitting dormant In heaven while His spirit is running around earth being in the midst of His gathered people?

It seems to me you already hold a very elastic view the nature and appearance of His "body" today already, for you claim in some ways it's exactly the same as His body that hung on the cross, yet in other ways you agree it's completely different... So I'm having difficulty comprehending your objection to My view, as to me they seem very similar, save the fact that I see nothing in scripture describing the Glorified Christ in heaven looking anything like the way He looked on earth, and In fact I find EXPLICIT teaching that His appearance is NOTHING like it was on earth, indicating to me some appreciable change must have taken place after He ascended.
I'm still not sure why you would disagree with that.

If she’s clinging she ‘s touching, and Jesus said don’t do it. Never the less I said plainly I could not prove it, but I am convinced the evidence points in that direction. I believe I did disprove your theory that Jesus was glorified, or changed physically on His way up in the clouds. You have nothing to back that up.

Most of your response is a very artful dodge of the points I made.

As to Jesus’s appearance to John, I see no conflict. Jesus looked a little different at the transfiguration. What’s your point? Did John say there were no nail scars or wounds? Jesus in a vision can appear anyway He wishes. Maybe try addressing the points I raised before running down a new rabbit trail as a diversion.

Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

keras · May 12, 2016

Hazrus said:
Now back to Luke 13 in particular - - - do you honestly believe it is about anything else except Jesus' death and resurrection? I would have thought this was obvious.

Luke 13:32 may allude to Jesus' death and resurrection and that may be obvious to anyone who doesn't make the connection of a 'day' to God being equal to 1000 years on earth. But the fact of Jesus then saying about the next two literal days, where He goes to Jerusalem, certainly makes the previous two 'days' allegorical or at least having some deeper meaning.
Jesus said He would work for those two 'days'. Did He in the tomb? But we know since then, He has and does 'work' miracles and He appears to some who call to Him in distress, I personally know of a case like that.
Then, on the 3rd 'day' He would reach His goal. The KJV says be perfected, but 'teleoumai' means to be matured or to reach the ultimate goal.
The ultimate goal and reward for Jesus is His Millennial reign.

I take no notice of commentaries. They are mostly written to promote certain doctrines and those who wrote them couldn't possibly have the truth of the end times, as they lived way before now. Daniel 12:9

Hazrus · May 12, 2016

I suppose we'll see how your prophecies come about in 2037 or whatever year it was then

keras · May 12, 2016

Hazrus said:
I suppose we'll see how your prophecies come about in 2037 or whatever year it was then

Paul said that we Christians are people of the light and do not belong to the darkness. So that Day should not come upon us like a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5
What I post is in no way my prophesies. I make no claim of anything other that being a messenger, a promoter of what the Bible prophets wrote.
Obviously you don't care for what they tell us, so why are you on this forum?

Hazrus · May 12, 2016

Keras, I have to take issue with what you said in the post above. Honestly I am on the border of reporting you for this.
1. You say you are explaining "what the Bible prophets" wrote. I and many others on this forum who are your Brothers and Sisters in Christ disagree that you have interpreted the Bible correctly. Are you saying that you alone are correct and the rest of us are wrong (even though we don't all agree with each other)? This is a dangerous position.
2. To say that I don't care about Bible prophecy is incorrect, haughty and plain rude. Of course I do. Everyone who posts here does, or they wouldn't be here!

Everyone - - - we all disagree on what will happen before the Lord returns. We all think our views are correct and everyone else is crazy. Let's not resort to personal attacks.

keras · May 13, 2016

Sorry to cause any upset.
I did see your post #375 as careless about prophecy and denigratory toward me.

Hazrus said:
Everyone - - - we all disagree on what will happen before the Lord returns. We all think our views are correct and everyone else is crazy

Right! And how sad that is. We can only pray the God will 'open the eyes of a few', Daniel 12:10b before the Great Day comes.

[MOVED] End of the world predictions are a dime a dozen and always wrong. :)

Believer

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Active Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Active Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Active Member

Active Member

Believer

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Believer

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Active Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Active Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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