Why Mormons Leave

antletems said:

'On this Rock' Yes. Peter = Rock, Petra. We Catholic believe 'Peter' was the rock. The Catholic Church was built upon Peter!

See, different interpretations that we could spend a life time going around and around interpreting!

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No it was built on the Rock, Jesus is the Rock

2 Sam 22; 47 The Lord/Yahweh/Jesus liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.

Ps 71
1 In thee, O Lord, do I put my trust: let me never be put to confusion.
2 Deliver me in thy righteousness, and cause me to escape: incline thine ear unto me, and save me.
3 Be thou my strong habitation, where unto I may continually resort: thou hast given commandment to save me; for thou art my rock and my fortress.

1 Corinthians 10:4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Romans 9:33
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling stone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

It's the testimony of Peter that "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." upon which the Church is built.

I guess its open to interpretation

fatboys said:

You don't believe there was an apostasy. Most of Christianity don't believe it even though they all broke off from your church. They broke off because they believed the your church had been corrupted. With many of the popes that were less than Christlike I can understand. But after the death of Christ and the apostles went out to preach the gospel hey would teach in an area and call leaders and go to the next city. By he time they got back to the first city the members had brought in many of the old law functions and intertwined them. Paul wrote many of his letters as peters of correction. Not all the cities received letters and many were left on their own devices. Eventually all the apostles were killed and there was scanty writings available to help guide and direct the church. Then you and 7 different large cities with the most members whose leaders competed against one another on just what the doctrine was and the new Testiment wasn't written down for at least 70 years after the fact by those who had never met Jesus personally. Who had heard the stories some of the apostles which included one apostle who had never met Jesus in the flesh either. It is by the grace of God that as much truth made it through to now as it did. But many truths were lost or distorted. This is why there was reformation where people begin to question the Catholic Church and many of its practices. The begin to protest against and broke away in which they are referred to as Protestants. Now there are thousands of different Protestant churches.

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There was no apostasy. I believe there can be individual people who become apostates, but there was no entire apostasy on the face of the earth.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Matthew 16:18
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever.

Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 that He is with us even to the end of the age. Is Jesus a liar, then? His word will NEVER pass away, it has NEVER passed away. It's always been there! The people are the church, there is no organization or building that will stand forever. Just His body of believers.

Just because Jesus said he would be with us doesn't mean that the church will not suffer!

SeekerOfChrist94 said:

There was no apostasy. I believe there can be individual people who become apostates, but there was no entire apostasy on the face of the earth.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Matthew 16:18
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever.

Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 that He is with us even to the end of the age. Is Jesus a liar, then? His word will NEVER pass away, it has NEVER passed away. It's always been there! The people are the church, there is no organization or building that will stand forever. Just His body of believers.

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There had to be or there would only be one church all professing the exact doctrine of Christ. This not be case. Many believe different doctrines that are important. If there was no apostasy there would be a unity of faith. There is not n

fatboys said:

There had to be or there would only be one church all professing the exact doctrine of Christ. This not be case. Many believe different doctrines that are important. If there was no apostasy there would be a unity of faith. There is not n

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We are united in our belief in Christ and that He is our God and our Savior. He is the one who formed the Heavens and the Earth. He is the one who died on Calvary for our sins. We are His church, the body of Christ, not an organization.

antletems said:

I guess its open to interpretation

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Who are you responding to?

Peter1000 said:

Jesus came to earth and was fully human. If he had not been fully human, he would not have been able to experience death. If he had not experienced death, your sins would stay as scarlet, and you would not enter into the kingdom of God.

But because he sacrificed his position as God the Son, and came to this earth, and did become fully human, and experienced hunger and fatigue and love and hate and pain and grief and happiness and temptations and family life and death, Jesus could know what we other humans were experiencing and judge us correctly. If not fully human, mercy and justice would not be melted into grace.

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Do you believe that is why Jesus came to earth? To "experience" life as a human... only? He goal was Messiah, the righteous Lamb of God, first, last, and above all. I've never found that in the bible or any Jewish writings, that Messiah is sent to earth to "experience life as a human". He was sent as a human to save that which is lost, so humanity would have a bridge between God's holiness and sinful man, the two opposites never being able to join previously. I know Mormons don't, but Christians understand Jesus as being fully man, yes, but He was also fully God, while on earth. Even Christians can't comprehend it (who said we must?), but that's what He implies. It didn't come from us. Humanity isn't that smart. We still ponder how God can be in two places at once and still be fully God! Only God can do such a uniquely divine thing.

Could God not judge us correctly before Jesus came to earth? That would be mighty strange considering He is the master designer of humanity, after all, of every molecule, emotion, and motivation. And, the bible is literally bursting with God righteously judging all over the place! Just read a few chapters of the OT! Sometimes it makes me gasp out loud in how righteously He judges! And we get only glimpses of that right now. Amazing.

Phoebe Ann said:

I don't know all the creeds.

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Thank you for making the point I brought up a while back: if the Creeds are so gosh darn important to mainline Christianity, how come so few mainline Christians I've encountered over the years could name them, let alone summarize what they meant?

Whoever has not read and studied posts #599-600 by withwonderingawe, needs to. This is a lesson on the apostacy, right straight out of the bible. The bible and the BOM both declared that this would happen and it did.

SeekerOfChrist94 said:

We are united in our belief in Christ and that He is our God and our Savior. He is the one who formed the Heavens and the Earth. He is the one who died on Calvary for our sins. We are His church, the body of Christ, not an organization.

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What does that mean? And this isn't true either. But if you were united in Christ so what Christ said there would be many saying Christ here am I and christ will know them not. Having a faith in Christ is not enough because the Devils believe and they are lost. Christianity is not unified because of beliefs of what is important. That is not a unity of faith.

antletems said:

I guess its open to interpretation

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Do you understand how we interpret it?

Peter1000 said:

Can you reconcile it to truth? Give it a try.

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Even Jesus said there were people who didn't understand His Gospel fully during His time on earth. Look at the Jewish religious leaders. They got things wrong all the time, and they were supposed to be the intelligent ones! Getting God "wrong" has happened on earth since Adam. Humanity has been "apostatizing" from God since round about Day Eight or so. Ever notice that before? Did you expect people, especially deeply Paganized Gentiles who hadn't lived with the concept of one God, let alone a Messiah, and personal sin?... to instantly "get" everything the Apostles and the teachers they trained explained to them? No human is perfect, not even the Apostles. So where mormonism develops this convenient "apostasy" of the early church is so truly weird. They had the Apostles letters to share among congregations, still had good teachers taught by them, and eventually the canonized bible for guidance. What happened then, after the bible was available to the world? Was it still in this "apostasy"? With the Word of God to bring everyone back to the Narrow Way? I don't think so. The bible works exactly as God says it will once its put into practice. EVERY time, able to bridge anything humanity can throw at it. If it didn't? I would be the first to admit its suspect, but I can't say that because its not. If it is, then why is it throughout all Christianity, that the Gospel's unifying central theme still shines through all our doctrinal differences.... Jesus saves! Jesus is Lord! God loves us! How could that be "apostasy"? (And why can't I ever spell that stupid word right?! It's like cinnamon or aluminum!)

Did the Apostles all preach the same messages each week (or whenever), and in the same style? No. They were all individuals. Each had a unique ministry to those God called them to. Even the Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 2:1 warns there were false teachers during the Apostles time. Nothing new. Same old same old humanity, marching on. But they knew that the Gospel would survive without them, because Jesus promised it would, and they believed Him. But always remember, Paul and others also proclaim that there are those who continue to truly preach Christ in Phil. 1:18 and in many other verses. So all is not lost. It never was. The central theme of the Gospel spread like wildfire during the first three centuries to us today, remaining exactly the same message of love and hope. I'd say that's pretty good odds for divine truth.

SeekerOfChrist94 said:

There was no apostasy. I believe there can be individual people who become apostates, but there was no entire apostasy on the face of the earth.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Matthew 16:18
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever.

Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 that He is with us even to the end of the age. Is Jesus a liar, then? His word will NEVER pass away, it has NEVER passed away. It's always been there! The people are the church, there is no organization or building that will stand forever. Just His body of believers.

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That's beautiful! Excellent job on those verses. Makes you want to shout hallelujah! Imagine. If God's Word ever passed away, God would be a liar. But God cannot lie.

fatboys said:

There had to be or there would only be one church all professing the exact doctrine of Christ. This not be case. Many believe different doctrines that are important. If there was no apostasy there would be a unity of faith. There is not n

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I alluded to this idea before. This simply is untrue. Going by this logic, there is still an apostasy, because even after Joseph Smith's restoration (one among many in the history of Christianity), there have been many churches established within the LDS movement. Your logic simply does not work even within the Joseph Smith related churches.

Peter1000 said:

Whoever has not read and studied posts #599-600 by withwonderingawe, needs to. This is a lesson on the apostacy, right straight out of the bible. The bible and the BOM both declared that this would happen and it did.

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That would be your personal opinion, that its "straight out of the bible". I don't consider it to be accurate just because she uses a few bible verses to prove LDS points. Sorry. The very fact that the Gospel has NEVER changed since Day One is proof positive that there was no complete early church "apostasy". So there were false teachers in the world then. And there are none now? Even mormonism has its own factions that don't recognize each other as legitimate! Everyone is an "apostate" to the other! My brothers and sisters within all Christianity are not "apostates" to me. So they believe differently than I do. So what? They trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, and work for the Lord in proclaiming the Gospel. Enough for me.

Maybe that's why God gave us HIS WORD, the bible, to go by? Proof of what HE says, in black and white. I know I'm not reading man's words when I read my bible. It has too much hope and love to offer.

The Bible talks about a future apostasy which is happening in our generation, false prophets rising up, individuals falling away, not the entire church body being wiped off the planet.

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Matthew 24:10-12
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.

2 Peter 2:17
Knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.

Matthew 15:7-9
You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

SeekerOfChrist94 said:

The Bible talks about a future apostasy which is happening in our generation, false prophets rising up, individuals falling away, not the entire church body being wiped off the planet.

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Matthew 24:10-12
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.

2 Peter 2:17
Knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.

Matthew 15:7-9
You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

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The problem with believing this is that it warns against false prophets for a reason. In preserving to have false prophets there has to be true ones

SeekerOfChrist94 said:

There was no apostasy. I believe there can be individual people who become apostates, but there was no entire apostasy on the face of the earth.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Matthew 16:18
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever.

Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 that He is with us even to the end of the age. Is Jesus a liar, then? His word will NEVER pass away, it has NEVER passed away. It's always been there! The people are the church, there is no organization or building that will stand forever. Just His body of believers.

Click to expand...

The only reason for their faith to exist is if all of Christianity were apostates. They can never back down on that one.

fatboys said:

The problem with believing this is that it warns against false prophets for a reason. In preserving to have false prophets there has to be true ones

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There have been true prophets. The Bible is full of them. The real ones.