2Thessalonians2:7 explained

Douggg · May 8, 2016

Postvieww said:
Foucus on the word revealed. Whoever is holding back in this passage is not restraining the mystery of iniquity from working, it is clear from the text he was and still is working, he is being held back or restrained from being REVEALED as the one who sits in the temple showing himself that he is God.

revealed in his time. It not the one event of going into the temple, it is the whole endtimes picture. The man of sin cannot commit the act in a vacuum. All of the events of the book that Jesus removes the seals from have to be set into motion.
Which is not by Michael who removes the seals.

All power in heaven and on the earth is given unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

Postvieww · May 8, 2016

A simple reading of the text of all coming of the Lord passages only shows one more coming of the Lord in our future, which includes one gathering, and one resurrection of the righteous dead. The only way to make more comings is to arbitrarily divide up these passages based on the need to prove a doctrine that is not in scripture. If one harmonizes rather that divides up these passages all events fit together and show only one more coming.

Postvieww · May 8, 2016

Douggg said:
revealed in his time. It not the one event of going into the temple, it is the whole endtimes picture. The man of sin cannot commit the act in a vacuum. All of the events of the book that Jesus removes the seals from have to be set into motion.
Which is not by Michael who removes the seals.

All power in heaven and on the earth is given unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

revealed in his time. It not the one event of going into the temple, it is the whole endtimes picture. The man of sin cannot commit the act in a vacuum. All of the events of the book that Jesus removes the seals from have to be set into motion.

If all of these events are dependent on the church being gone you are not really an anytime rapture view. Are you coming out of the closet?

Which is not by Michael who removes the seals.

How do you with scripture connect the seals to the revealing of the man of sin?

All power in heaven and on the earth is given unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

I agree totally, but that in no way proves your point.

Douggg · May 8, 2016

Postvieww said:
revealed in his time. It not the one event of going into the temple, it is the whole endtimes picture. The man of sin cannot commit the act in a vacuum. All of the events of the book that Jesus removes the seals from have to be set into motion.

If all of these events are dependent on the church being gone you are not really an anytime rapture view. Are you coming out of the closet?

No, that is not what I said. I wrote that it is not Michael who allows, disallows the man of sin being revealed in his time, but the Lord Jesus Christ. The church is here right now, as Israel has become one nation again, Gog/Magog nations are in place, Jerusalem is back in the hands of the Jews - those are end times events..... which "his time" is the end time.

Which, it is not by Michael who removes the seals.

How do you with scripture connect the seals to the revealing of the man of sin?

first seal that rider is the little horn, who becomes the Antichrist, King of Israel, appears to be the messiah, confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant, Daniel 9:26-27, for the 7 years of Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Second seal, rider on red horse, peace is taken from the earth, war everywhere. End of peace and safety illusion of false messianic age of 1thessalonians 5 as the Antichrist reveals that he is not the true messiah 2thessalonians2:4 ; sudden destruction arrives the Day of the Lord, like a snare Luke 21:35 , time of judgment and troubles upon the earth. Church is gone before then, 2thessalonians2:7, taken out of the way, escapes, Luke 21:34-36.

Riberra · May 8, 2016

Douggg said:
first seal that rider is the little horn, who becomes the Antichrist, King of Israel, appears to be the messiah, confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant, Daniel 9:26-27, for the 7 years of Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Second seal, rider on red horse, peace is taken from the earth, war everywhere. End of peace and safety illusion of false messianic age of 1thessalonians 5 as the Antichrist reveals that he is not the true messiah 2thessalonians2:4 ; sudden destruction arrives the Day of the Lord, like a snare Luke 21:35 , time of judgment and troubles upon the earth. Church is gone before then, 2thessalonians2:7, taken out of the way, escapes, Luke 21:34-36.

Correct me if i am wrong but based on -your interpretation of the first seal rider- you are confirming that the church /body of Christ will be here on the Earth when the AC will become the King of Israel... appears to be the messiah... brings peace and safety illusion of false messianic age ...

Luke17:37 · May 8, 2016

Douggg said:
His coming and gathering in verse 1, is the fulfillment of his promise in John 14:3 to receive us unto himself and 1Thessalonians4:13-18 is he himself coming for his bride , which is not his Second Coming. The Second Coming is after the rapture of the church, because the marriage feast in Revelation 19 is after the marriage.

The Day of the Lord is not a time of celebration. It is a time of judgment.

God is allowed to do both celebration and judgment on the same day. See what manner the Lord will be praised when the seventh trumpet sounds:

Revelation 11:16-18
16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Douggg said:
It doesn't say first resurrection in 1Thessalonians 4:14-17. Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't say anything about the translation of the living (the rapture)

I didn't say that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 says first resurrection, but it clearly says the dead are raised slightly prior to gathering of the living. Revelation 20:4-6 says that the resurrection including these Tribulation martyrs is the first resurrection. Therefore, there can be no earlier resurrection of the Church, and therefore, the "rapture" or gathering of the church happens after the Tribulation, not before.

Douggg said:
That gathering pertains to the Jews scattered around the world - a referral back to God's promise back in Deuteronomy in His commitment to them.

The gathering of the Israelites to Israel is not the context of Matthew 24:31 or 2 Thessalonians 2:1. These are about the gathering of the elect to the Lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise Paul would not say, "our gathering together with Him."

Douggg said:
It does mention the gathering in verse 1, but it looks like you have to saw off verse 1 and deny it even though verse 1 and 2 together make a complete sentence.

Click to expand...

I never said two separate sentences, but two verses.

But my point is, you can't acknowledge that "the day of Christ" and "that Day" refer to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him" - one special day. By dividing the verses and the sentences and redefining the clear meaning, you take it all out of context.

Douggg said:
he, who now letteth - Jesus - who is given all power in heaven and in the earth to let things happen
he, who will let - Jesus - who will allow the man of sin to be revealed
he, to be taken out of the way - (Jesus) his body here on earth the church

What doesn't fit the "he" for all three requirements:
God the Father
The Holy Spirit
Michael, the angel
The church

Jesus keeps Satan from doing all the evil he really wants to do. At some point (I believe after He has sealed the 144,000), the Lord will allow Satan to do whatever he wants but not hurt the people who have the seal of God on their foreheads. The rest of the saints God will allow Satan and his demons to kill.

Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:6-7
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:14-17
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth—by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Douggg · May 8, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
God is allowed to do both celebration and judgment on the same day. See what manner the Lord will be praised when the seventh trumpet sounds:

Revelation 11:16-18
16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Well, it won't be here on earth, the world will be saying that.

I didn't say that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 says first resurrection, but it clearly says the dead are raised slightly prior to gathering of the living. Revelation 20:4-6 says that the resurrection including these Tribulation martyrs is the first resurrection. Therefore, there can be no earlier resurrection of the Church, and therefore, the "rapture" or gathering of the church happens after the Tribulation, not before.

Therefore? No, not therefore the rapture happens after the Great Tribulation on the basis that the martyred tribulation saints are resurrected. The first resurrection in Revelation 20 is noted as being the first resurrection because there are two resurrections timed with the millenium. One at the beginning, and one at the end.

Which I also pointed out to you that the resurrection (which is timed with the rapture) in 1thessalonians4:13-18 is not called the first resurrection. And there is no changing of the living in Revelation 20:4-6 either.

The gathering of the Israelites to Israel is not the context of Matthew 24:31 or 2 Thessalonians 2:1. These are about the gathering of the elect to the Lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise Paul would not say, "our gathering together with Him."

The gathering of the Israelites is withn the context of what the Lord said he would do back in Deuteronomy and Ezekiel 39:

28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

Do the Jews believe that Jesus is the Lord their God? No, they don't. The Jews will become believers, after their perceived messiah betrays them, just as Christianity has been saying to them for 2000 years. The Jews right now, if you visit any of their websites like Judaism 101.com or MessiahTruth.com, or watch any of their You Tube countermissionary teachings - say the proof that Jesus is not the messiah (in their eyes) is that he did not gather the Israelites back to the land of Israel.

But my point is, you can't acknowledge that "the day of Christ" and "that Day" refer to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him" - one special day. By dividing the verses and the sentences and redefining the clear meaning, you take it all out of context.

I am not dividing the sentence up. It is one sentence that you are misunderstanding what it says. The sentence has been given as two verses - I am not the one who put the sentence into two verses. It has been done that way for reference.

Jesus keeps Satan from doing all the evil he really wants to do. At some point (I believe after He has sealed the 144,000), the Lord will allow Satan to do whatever he wants but not hurt the people who have the seal of God on their foreheads. The rest of the saints God will allow Satan and his demons to kill.

So it is the Lord Jesus Christ who allows things to happen or not happen - and not the angel Michael? If that is what you are saying, that is my explanation of the "he" in 2thessalonians2:7.

Douggg · May 8, 2016

Riberra said:
Correct me if i am wrong but based on -your interpretation of the first seal rider- you are confirming that the church /body of Christ will be here on the Earth when the AC will become the King of Israel... appears to be the messiah... brings peace and safety illusion of false messianic age ...

Yes, exactly, as a possibility. (which is not pre-trib, pre 70th week, thought as a possibility. I am anytime rapture view)

I am saying that it is possible that the church will be here when the person becomes the leader of Europe, the little horn, then becomes the King of Israel.....and the false messianic age begins, and the great falling away takes place.... all the way right up to when the man of sin becomes convinced in his heart that the has achieved God-hood, and commits the transgression of desolation. Which at the latest, the church will be taken out of the way right before (maybe a day before even) the person goes into the temple and claims to be God; and them who fell away during the false messianic age will not be taken in the rapture.

That mystery of iniquity, leaving belief in Jesus, was already at work in Paul's time. John called such persons antichrists - after the coming Antichrist.

So in terms of timeframes, the possibility is that the church is here for the first three years, four months or so. Or the church could be gone in the next few minutes, is also possible. (anytime rapture view). I have not been trying to defend the pretrib view. But the escape from the time of trouble during the Day of the Lord, and rule of the beast.

Luke17:37 · May 8, 2016

Douggg said:
Well, it won't be here on earth, the world will be saying that.

Therefore? No, not therefore the rapture happens after the Great Tribulation on the basis that the martyred tribulation saints are resurrected. The first resurrection in Revelation 20 is noted as being the first resurrection because there are two resurrections timed with the millenium. One at the beginning, and one at the end.

Which I also pointed out to you that the resurrection (which is timed with the rapture) in 1thessalonians4:13-18 is not called the first resurrection. And there is no changing of the living in Revelation 20:4-6 either.

The gathering of the Israelites is withn the context of what the Lord said he would do back in Deuteronomy and Ezekiel 39:

28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

Do the Jews believe that Jesus is the Lord their God? No, they don't. The Jews will become believers, after their perceived messiah betrays them, just as Christianity has been saying to them for 2000 years. The Jews right now, if you visit any of their websites like Judaism 101.com or MessiahTruth.com, or watch any of their You Tube countermissionary teachings - say the proof that Jesus is not the messiah (in their eyes) is that he did not gathered the Israelites back to the land of Israel.

I am not dividing the sentence up. It is one sentence that you are misunderstanding what it says. The sentence has been given as two verses - I am not the one who put the sentence into two verses. It has been done that way for reference.

So it is the Lord Jesus Christ who allows things to happen or not happen - and not the angel Michael? If that is what you are saying, that is my explanation of the "he" in 2thessalonians2:7.

You are proclaiming a resurrection of the Church which is earlier than the one God called the first. You are proclaiming a pre-tribulation gathering where 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 strongly teaches there will be no gathering until after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin (in the Tribulation).

If you read Scripture straightforwardly and independently, you would never believe that there is a pre-Tribulation resurrection and rapture just as you would never read that there are millions of years where death reigned in Genesis 1 (and many Christians insist it's okay to believe this). The idea came outside of Scripture and then people twist the clear meaning of Scriptures to attempt to support something Scripture neither teaches nor allows.

Not every passage of Scripture has to address every aspect of everything. It doesn't matter that Revelation 19 and 20 don't mention the gathering at Jesus' second coming, since Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 do. When you put them all together, the Scriptures provide a consistent post-tribulation resurrection-gathering viewpoint--and legitimately teach nothing else. You would never claim that Jesus died on the cross and rose again four times in light of the fact that the gospels don't all contain every detail. But people have no problem proclaiming two separate comings, resurrections and gatherings regardless of the fact that Scripture doesn't necessitate it.

I know all about the gathering of the Israelites to Israel when Jesus returns, but that's clearly not the gathering referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 or Matthew 24:31. This is the gathering of the elect - what you call the rapture.

You certainly sound pre-tribulation since you believe the church will be raptured first. Or maybe mid-tribulation... anything but post-Tribulation.

Choose Wisely · May 8, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
If you read Scripture straightforwardly and independently, you would never believe that there is a pre-Tribulation resurrection and rapture

Why would you think if scripture was read straight forwardly you would not believe that there is a pre-tribulation rapture.

Matthew 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You think that by reading straight forward you would know if there is a pre tribulation rapture? If you read the above straight forward, it clearly says...........for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You think you have a pretty good idea as to the timing of His Coming.......But there is an absolute flaw in your logic and you read right past so many things that would disprove what you currently believe. If you took scripture for EXACTLY what it says, your views would change.

Douggg · May 8, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
You are proclaiming a resurrection of the Church which is earlier than the one God called the first

I am saying that the resurrection/rapture of 1thessalonians4:13-18 is not the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints. It does come earlier, and is not called the first resurrrection in the text of 1thessalonians4:1-3-18 because it is not the same resurrection that takes place in Revelation 20:4-6.

You certainly sound pre-tribulation since you believe the church will be raptured first. Or maybe mid-tribulation... anything but post-Tribulation.

I am anytime rapture view; the rapture can take place anytime between now and when it actually does. You could convert....

Douggg · May 8, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
I know all about the gathering of the Israelites to Israel when Jesus returns, but that's clearly not the gathering referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 or Matthew 24:31. This is the gathering of the elect - what you call the rapture.

Where in the new testament are you reading about Jesus gathering the Jews scattered among the nations?

Luke17:37 · May 8, 2016

Douggg said:
I am saying that the resurrection/rapture of 1thessalonians4:13-18 is not the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints. It does come earlier, and is not called the first resurrrection in the text of 1thessalonians4:1-3-18 because it is not the same resurrection that takes place in Revelation 20:4-6.

I am anytime rapture view; the rapture can take place anytime between now and when it actually does. You could convert....

And your Scriptural basis for this assertion of an earlier Resurrection Gathering is? Please don't say 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

I have been solidly convinced of a post-tribulation resurrection-gathering for over half my life, and I'm passionate about it because I don't want to silently watch a significant part of the Church cave in the Tribulation (the apostasy) based on their expectations that God will not let His Church suffer through the Tribulation. I'm not going to change. You might not either. I guess this is where we say goodbye.

Luke17:37 · May 8, 2016

Douggg said:
Where in the new testament are you reading about Jesus gathering the Jews scattered among the nations?

I read the whole Bible; it doesn't have to be in the New Testament. It's found, for example, in Isaiah 27:13.

Isaiah 27:12-13
12 And it shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will thresh,
From the channel of the River to the Brook of Egypt;
And you will be gathered one by one,
O you children of Israel.
13 So it shall be in that day:
The great trumpet will be blown;
They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria,
And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt,
And shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

These passages also discuss the gathering of Israelites at the end (a quick search for "gathering" through the Old Testament):

Deuteronomy 30:4, Jeremiah 23:1-8, Jeremiah 31:8-14, Jeremiah 32:37, Ezekiel 28:25-26, Ezekiel 37:21-22, Hosea 11:10-11, Micah 2:12, Zechariah 10:9-10.

Luke17:37 · May 8, 2016

Choose Wisely said:
Why would you think if scripture was read straight forwardly you would not believe that there is a pre-tribulation rapture.

Matthew 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You think that by reading straight forward you would know if there is a pre tribulation rapture? If you read the above straight forward, it clearly says...........for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You think you have a pretty good idea as to the timing of His Coming.......But there is an absolute flaw in your logic and you read right past so many things that would disprove what you currently believe. If you took scripture for EXACTLY what it says, your views would change.

You don't really care about my resume or the depth of my conviction, I'm sure, so I'll spare you.

If you read 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, you see that the coming of Christ will be as a thief for many, but it won't be for those in Christ whose eyes are open (spiritually). They will not be surprised by it. Hebrews 10:24-25 says not to forsake gathering together, especially as we see the Day approaching, also suggesting that we will be able to see the Day approaching. We won't know the exact day is upon us, but we will understand general times once the Tribulation begins. Jesus gave us lots of signs and information so we know what to expect. Those believers who remain alive will not be surprised, even though they won't know the exact day/hour.

If you want to debate evidence for the pre-Tribulation rapture in Scripture, just let me know.

Choose Wisely · May 8, 2016

I contend that your logic is flawed. You say your mind is already made up. I'm telling you that if you read scripture EXACTLY for what it says you will believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Please post one scripture that says that the rapture is post trib.

Douggg · May 8, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
And your Scriptural basis for this assertion of an earlier Resurrection Gathering is? Please don't say 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

I have been solidly convinced of a post-tribulation resurrection-gathering for over half my life, and I'm passionate about it because I don't want to silently watch a significant part of the Church cave in the Tribulation (the apostasy) based on their expectations that God will not let His Church suffer through the Tribulation. I'm not going to change. You might not either. I guess this is where we say goodbye.

Luke 21:34-36 is the basis for the anytime rapture view. I would also look at John 14:3 and Revelation 3:10-11.

The type of people who will leave Christianity in the great falling away are not posting at this site. Go look at some videos of Yusuf Estes on You Tube and listen to why he left Christianity to become a muslim, for example. One form of leaving Christianity.

Douggg · May 8, 2016

Choose Wisely said:
I contend that your logic is flawed. You say your mind is already made up. I'm telling you that if you read scripture EXACTLY for what it says you will believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Please post one scripture that says that the rapture is post trib.

Pre-tribulation rapture view is somewhat of a misnomer. What is being implied is pre-70th week, not the great tribulation of when the abomination of desolation is setup to be worshiped.

It is possible that the rapture will not happen pre-70th week, the church being here for up to the first 3 years 4 months or so. But the rapture will happen sometime in order to escape the Day of the Lord which commences when the person commits the abomination of transgression. May be pre-70th week or it may be after the 7 years begin. It can't be certain as to either one. Which is why I adopted the "anytime rapture view".

Douggg · May 8, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
I read the whole Bible; it doesn't have to be in the New Testament. It's found, for example, in Isaiah 27:13.

Isaiah 27:12-13
12 And it shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will thresh,
From the channel of the River to the Brook of Egypt;
And you will be gathered one by one,
O you children of Israel.
13 So it shall be in that day:
The great trumpet will be blown;
They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria,
And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt,
And shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

These passages also discuss the gathering of Israelites at the end (a quick search for "gathering" through the Old Testament):

Deuteronomy 30:4, Jeremiah 23:1-8, Jeremiah 31:8-14, Jeremiah 32:37, Ezekiel 28:25-26, Ezekiel 37:21-22, Hosea 11:10-11, Micah 2:12, Zechariah 10:9-10.

Do you think angels are going to rapture (translate) you from a corruptible body to an incorruptible body?

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You should consider converting to "anytime rapture view" which the requirement is that you be watching the times, keep a close relationship to Jesus, hopeful for Jesus coming to translate you and be where-ever he is from then on.

Jesus - All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. I am the resurrection and the life. ....Jesus is my Lord, Savior, God, and my best friend. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Luke17:37 · May 8, 2016

Choose Wisely said:
I contend that your logic is flawed. You say your mind is already made up. I'm telling you that if you read scripture EXACTLY for what it says you will believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Please post one scripture that says that the rapture is post trib.

Where is my logic flawed? How do you know? You can't judge inside my mind and you probably haven't read very many of my posts at all.

Here's one - the parable of the wheat and tares, Matthew 13. The wheat (elect) and tares (false believers and non-believers) are allowed to grow together until the harvest at the end of this age. The tares are gathered first to be destroyed in the fire, and then the righteous are gathered. Since God won't gather the wicked for destruction until He returns (Revelation 19:21), the elect won't be gathered until after that (post-tribulation resurrection gathering).

2Thessalonians2:7 explained

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