What exists inside a black hole?

Justatruthseeker

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As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about. None whatsoever.

Says the man that just found out 90% of the universe was ionized hydrogen, and then when his question was answered chooses to ignore it and make ad-honminem attacks because he has no actual science to counter with.
 
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lesliedellow

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Says the man that just found out 90% of the universe was ionized hydrogen, and then when his question was answered chooses to ignore it and make ad-honminem attacks because he has no actual science to counter with.

Have you ever read a text book on General Relativity?

Of course you haven't, but you became one of the world's leading astrophysicists by reading Wikipedia articles, and misunderstanding them 99% of the time.
 
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Loudmouth

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Good question - since almost the entire universe is composed of ionized hydrogen, what do you think it would have to do with GR?

If the entire universe was 99% sardines, how would that change GR?

But then since GR has nothing to do with plasma physics, you might wonder why they keep trying to apply it and it keeps failing by 96%. Some day they will learn GR only applies to non-ionized solids, liquids and gasses - planetary systems.

Ionization allows you to violate the laws of the universe?
 
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Gracchus

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Electromagnetic waves oscillate in two directions as they travel. They are given off by the movement of charged particles. Since spin is movement...... You can understand why all atomic structures emit electromagnetic radiation. They need not spin in two directions - they simply need to spin.
It is hard to know where to begin. Are you familiar with vector spaces, quaternions, and multi-dimensional geometries? Have you read A.E. Abbot's Flatland? Do you have the vocabulary to translate the algebraic language into geometrical pictures?
If you do, signify, and we can begin a discussion.
If you don't, I would suggest that this forum is not the place to learn. I would be happy to converse with you on the subject if you would consider doing some reading.
If you understand abstract algebras, set theory, or even "mechanical drawing", how three dimensional forms can be accurately rendered by two dimensional projections and cross-sections, and how numbers map to points then I can explain. If you do not understand those things, then it will take some time and trouble on my part to explain, if you are not willing to do the work, I won't bother.
If you are familiar with the math, then we have a basis for discussion.

:wave:
 
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Justatruthseeker

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It is hard to know where to begin. Are you familiar with vector spaces, quaternions, and multi-dimensional geometries? Have you read A.E. Abbot's Flatland? Do you have the vocabulary to translate the algebraic language into geometrical pictures?
If you do, signify, and we can begin a discussion.
If you don't, I would suggest that this forum is not the place to learn. I would be happy to converse with you on the subject if you would consider doing some reading.
If you understand abstract algebras, set theory, or even "mechanical drawing", how three dimensional forms can be accurately rendered by two dimensional projections and cross-sections, and how numbers map to points then I can explain. If you do not understand those things, then it will take some time and trouble on my part to explain, if you are not willing to do the work, I won't bother.
If you are familiar with the math, then we have a basis for discussion.

:wave:

I'd be happy if you first learned electromagnetic theory.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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If the entire universe was 99% sardines, how would that change GR?



Ionization allows you to violate the laws of the universe?

Show me one single laboratory experiment with plasma where GR was used?

That's what I thought...... I've been waiting for 10 years for one person to provide one single link. Since we have over 200+ years of plasma experiments, this shouldn't be too hard to do, now should it?

I expect I'll be waiting for another 10 years while you continue your double-talk and avoidance of learning plasma physics.

But then if you understood plasma physics, you would understand that ionized particles do not behave like clumps of particles. Even your pseudo-scientists know this.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/10apr_moondustinthewind/

""We've had some surprising results," says Abbas "We're finding that individual dust grains do not act the same as larger amounts of moon dust put together. Existing theories based on calculations of the charge of a large amount of moondust don't apply to the moondust at the single particle level.""

You can't even get charged moondust to behave like uncharged moondust, and you wonder why you need 96% Fairie Dust in astronomy. But not understanding the physics of plasma physics and electrodynamic theory, such is to be expected from those not understanding.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Have you ever read a text book on General Relativity?

Of course you haven't, but you became one of the world's leading astrophysicists by reading Wikipedia articles, and misunderstanding them 99% of the time.

You mean by those experts that can't even get GR to apply to anything beyond the solar system without adding 96% Fairie Dust? It's telling that a theory we understand is 99% accurate in describing solids, liquids and gasses fails by 96% as soon as you leave the confines of planetary system. Since you understand nothing of plasma behavior in a universe 99% plasma, I would expect nothing less from you. but I am still waiting for that one plasma experiment in which GR was ever used?

Plasma physics was developed precisely because it behaves differently than the other three states of matter. Cosmologists being ignorant about plasma behavior just keep on trying to sledgehammer the wrong theory to fit anyways, and so of course require those 96% ad-hoc theories.
 
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lesliedellow

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You mean by those experts that can't even get GR to apply to anything beyond the solar system without adding 96% Fairie Dust? It's telling that a theory we understand is 99% accurate in describing solids, liquids and gasses fails by 96% as soon as you leave the confines of planetary system. Since you understand nothing of plasma behavior in a universe 99% plasma, I would expect nothing less from you. but I am still waiting for that one plasma experiment in which GR was ever used?

Plasma physics was developed precisely because it behaves differently than the other three states of matter. Cosmologists being ignorant about plasma behavior just keep on trying to sledgehammer the wrong theory to fit anyways, and so of course require those 96% ad-hoc theories.

Oh, for heaven's sake:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100310134152.htm
 
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Gracchus

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I'd be happy if you first learned electromagnetic theory.
Electromagnetic waves oscillate in two directions as they travel.
Yes, yes, the electric field is perpendicular to the magnetic field and both are perpendicular to the direction of travel. As I said.
They are given off by the movement of charged particles.
The "particle" is the field until the wave form collapses.
Since spin is movement...
I prefer the term "oscillation" to "spin". "Spin" implies rotation, and "oscillation" just implies some sort of periodic change, but we can use the term "spin" as long as it is understood that it does not imply any rotating mass.
You can understand why all atomic structures emit electromagnetic radiation.
I understand.
They need not spin in two directions - they simply need to spin.
The electric field oscillates in one dimension, the magnetic field oscillates laterally. The field can be described by the expression: A X (cos ( x ) + i X sin(x ), where "A" is the amplitude and "x" is the period. "i" of course represents the lateralization of the two fields, although the "two fields" are just one oscillating in two dimensions. At light speed there is no momentum, no mass, all the energy is in the field, and only when the energy is absorbed (the photoelectric effect) or reflected, is the field localized to a "particle". Note that the cross product of the fields results in a vector in the third dimension, the direction of motion. (It is actually better described with quaternions than vectors.)
Are we in agreement about that? I have simplified the thing somewhat, leaving out Planck's constant and the phase angle, but we can always add the complexity if necessary. Of course I may have got it wrong, and you can correct me.

:wave:
 
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Justatruthseeker

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The "particle" is the field until the wave form collapses.

The particle exists whether the wave exists or not. Are you saying neutrons do not exists because they have no EM fields? Or that in mainstream Fairie Dust theories Dark Matter does not exists because it has no EM fields? I'd agree on the second one, since it is pure Fairie Dust.

I prefer the term "oscillation" to "spin". "Spin" implies rotation, and "oscillation" just implies some sort of periodic change, but we can use the term "spin" as long as it is understood that it does not imply any rotating mass.

I agree. But oscillation still implies movement. A pendulum oscillates, but does not spin, etc.


I understand.The electric field oscillates in one dimension, the magnetic field oscillates laterally. The field can be described by the expression: A X (cos ( x ) + i X sin(x ), where "A" is the amplitude and "x" is the period. "i" of course represents the lateralization of the two fields, although the "two fields" are just one oscillating in two dimensions.


At light speed there is no momentum, no mass, all the energy is in the field, and only when the energy is absorbed (the photoelectric effect) or reflected, is the field localized to a "particle". Note that the cross product of the fields results in a vector in the third dimension, the direction of motion. (It is actually better described with quaternions than vectors.)
Are we in agreement about that? I have simplified the thing somewhat, leaving out Planck's constant and the phase angle, but we can always add the complexity if necessary. Of course I may have got it wrong, and you can correct me.

:wave:

Agreed.

IMO there is no such thing as "light speed" It is a measurement of energy content, not velocity as we tend to think of it. We can never reach the speed of c because as one accelerates energy is gained, clocks and rulers change - and the same distances and times are no longer measured. Zero points are reset proportionally to the energy gained.

The speed of light is similar to kinetic energy. In the bullets frame it reads zero kinetic energy and zero velocity, even if we read both a kinetic energy and a velocity for the bullet from our frame. Our clocks and rulers are not the same as the bullets clocks and rulers. It's zero point is being constantly reset proportionally to energy gained from acceleration.

There is no such thing as a backwards moving or stopped clock, anymore then there can be a bullet with negative kinetic energy. Slow the bullet down to our frame - and it will still read zero kinetic energy. Speed it up to any velocity and it will still read zero kinetic energy (in its frame).

It is like the second hand on a clock. A point near the hub (stationary frame) reads a different distance and elapsed time than a point near the tip (accelerating frame) does. They read proportional arcs of time and distance, not the same distance or elapsed period of time. We simply CALL them the same thing. But the person at the tip sees the exact same thing as the person at the hub does - because his zero points are reset proportionally to the energy gained due to his acceleration. To him he is stationary and the other is the one that is moving.

Light speed is not attainable not because of mass considerations, but because clocks and rulers change and zero points are reset proportionally. As long as one uses his own clocks and rulers, it will never happen. Light remains c regardless of velocity because the same times and distances are no longer measured. Zero points are reset for each frame, the velocity component compensated for in the gain or loss of energy from acceleration or deceleration.

The speed of c is not mysterious or magical, even if mainstream theorists have no answer, because they are confused about time and think of it as a physical reality, a fourth dimension. They have yet to grasp the actual reality - that clocks and rulers change with energy and zero points are reset proportionally to that energy gained or lost. Which is why no mainstream theorist will be able to explain to you why c always remains c. Their answer will be simply that it is always just c, but there will be no explanation as to why it is so. You will just be asked to take it on faith.
 
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tatteredsoul

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We can't know, because it's not possible to get close enough to a black hole to find out and still return. The gravity exerted by a black hole is so intense that once you pass a certain point ( The event horizon ), you will be inevitably sucked into the black hole and who knows what happens from there.

This is the general reality, but for theory purposes we can say we know (and even then, there is blinding ignorance and disagreements between cosmologists and theoretical physicists...I wont go into that mess.)

Theoretically, a star is in a black hole - the neutron star, magnetar, whatever densely packed electromagnetically powerful star you want. The gravity potential does pull mass in, but not photons. The photons are pulled in by the extreme magnetism of the "black" hole. The acceleration of the photon into this potential well energizes the photon - which is why (*ahem*) just recently "experts" have discovered 25,000 light year tall structures of gamma radiation (actually superenergetic cosmic radiation.) And, these structures are on either side of the "black hole." Why? Because a neutron star, for example, has an incredible magnetic field (and electric field, as the magnetic field can change with time,) and acts as a magnet.

But, you can't just say "we don't know" even if it is true because it spoils the "fun" cosmologists and physics get to have trying to make the math work :D
 
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morse86

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Firstly, it is actually impossible to see a black hole because they have such a strong gravitational pull that they suck in light and our vision is based on perceiving light waves. However, we can tell where black holes are because of a complete absence of light in their general area. Secondly, by your logic I can ask if anyone here has actually seen God with their eyes, and when they respond with no I could use that as evidence that God doesn't exist.

I believe by faith just as you believe black holes by faith. You haven't seen it personally...you are believing the "word" of the "astrologist scientists". Let's get that right at least.

I can look at the sky at night and see complete blackness....does that mean there is a black hole there?
 
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morse86

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You said you have seen with your own eyes a black hole...but you linked to some tabloid gossip garbage article. Look, show me an actual picture YOU took.

I live in WV, we don't have light pollution here. I can see the stars clearly.

You are believing these scientists by faith, you have no proof, all you have is their word and their "excuses". Look, it's religion, not a science.
 
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morse86

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Regardless of the articles content, those were still real photographs. I can't show you a photo I took because the equipment necessary to take such a photograph is incredibly expensive, and I don't have that kind of money. Where in West Virginia do you live? If it's in or near a city, there is light pollution. I believe the scientists because they have no reason to lie to people. Why would all the people studying black holes make up something like that? They gain absolutely nothing from doing so. Also, I do have proof. You just aren't willing to accept it. And besides, even if I'm believing in the scientists by faith, you're doing the exact same thing. If your faith in your God is sufficient proof, why isn't my faith that the scientists across the world who all agree that black holes are real sufficient proof that I'm right? If you ask me, that's a bit of a double standard right there.

Do you realize the amount of debt these scientists are in? Do you go against your boss when you got bills to pay? Satan runs ALL of the kingdoms of the earth. The love of money is the root of all evil. Do you not understand?
 
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Stellar Vision

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The gravity potential does pull mass in, but not photons. The photons are pulled in by the extreme magnetism of the "black" hole.
Umm, no. Photons are not pulled in by extreme magnetism; they have no electric charge. They travel in a null geodesic, a term which generalizes the straight line in flat spacetime. Under the extreme gravitational field of the black hole spacetime is curved inward, and the resulting geodesic (shortest path between two points) is also curved.

The acceleration of the photon into this potential well energizes the photon
...Photons don't accelerate, they travel at the constant speed of c...
 
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Stellar Vision

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You said you have seen with your own eyes a black hole...but you linked to some tabloid gossip garbage article. Look, show me an actual picture YOU took.

I live in WV, we don't have light pollution here. I can see the stars clearly.

You are believing these scientists by faith, you have no proof, all you have is their word and their "excuses". Look, it's religion, not a science.
Sagittarius A*. Our own supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way.
 
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tatteredsoul

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Umm, no. Photons are not pulled in by extreme magnetism; they have no electric charge. They travel in a null geodesic, a term which generalizes the straight line in flat spacetime. Under the extreme gravitational field of the black hole spacetime is curved inward, and the resulting geodesic (shortest path between two points) is also curved.

...Photons don't accelerate, they travel at the constant speed of c...

Oh, ok.
 
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Oafman

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Has anyone here seen a black hole except in a hollywood studio? They do not exist.
Until a few months ago, we were reliant on indirect evidence of the existence of black holes. Such as the stars orbiting something we can't see at the centre of our galaxy.

But just recently, we managed to directly see black holes for the first time, through the ripples in space time they created.

So the answer to your question is yes, people have now seen black holes.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Has anyone here seen a black hole except in a hollywood studio? They do not exist.

Yes I have, and yes they do, just not as mainstream envisions them to be. It is not objects orbiting an infinite density point mass of zero volume, but objects orbiting a common electromagnetic center. The problem is mainstream still tries to use a sledgehammer because they don't realize they have a screwdriver in the tool box. They are still treating a universe 99% plasma with the wrong physics for solids, liquids and gasses, so require all their imaginary ad-hoc inventions to make the math fit a semblance of reality. Once they start using the correct physics for the correct states of matter - all that Fairie Dust will go away.

Then we can go back to the laboratory and deduce the correct behavior of a universe 99% plasma.



So if you watched the video, you too have now seen a black hole.
 
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