Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

Jan001 · May 6, 2016

Rick Otto said:
More accurately, He allowed Adam to lose it, as it served His end-game purpose.

Actually, God destined His Son to become Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world because God knew that Adam would sin and thereby lose all possibility for him and his descendants to enter into eternal life with Him. God's end-game purpose is to have His children living happily with him in eternity. Sadly, many will still refuse to love/obey Him and so they will be spending eternity with Satan in hell.

Jan001 · May 6, 2016

Hoghead1 said:
Yes, it is generally said to be a mystery. However, I and other theologians don't fully buy that. I believe these so-called mysteries or paradoxes of the trinity actually represent muddled thinking on the part of the church fathers.

Please explain who gave you the authority to infallibly interpret the Scriptures. You and other like-minded theologians believe that your own beliefs about the Trinity are not muddled, yet it is the church fathers who actually were given the authority of Jesus Christ to interpret their own Scriptures and it is they who were guided into the truth about the Trinity by the Holy Spirit. If your interpretations differ from theirs, it seems to me that you are the ones who are in error.

ToBeLoved · May 6, 2016

Jan001 said:
Actually, God destined His Son to become Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world because God knew that Adam would sin and thereby lose all possibility for him and his descendants to enter into eternal life with Him. God's end-game purpose is to have His children living happily with him in eternity. Sadly, many will still refuse to love/obey Him and so they will be spending eternity with Satan in hell.

That for sure does not happen in weaker theological churches. The pews are too comfortable to get up.

BornAgainChristian1 · May 6, 2016

Jan001 said:
Let's look at other Scripture versions:

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government will be upon his shoulder,
and his name will be called
“Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” rsv

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. nkjv

Please note that "The" is missing from the other translations.

Here is a direct translation from a Greek Study Bible:

http://studybible.info/interlinear/Isaiah 9:6.

There is no "The" in any of them.

Isaiah 9:6 simply prophesies that the Son of God will be an everlasting father to His children on earth.

Jesus is the spiritual father of His children in the faith.

Mark 10:24
And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! rsv

Abraham is also a spiritual father to all his children in the faith.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all rsv

Galatians 3:7
Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

Paul is also a spiritual father to his children in the faith.

1 Corinthians 4:15
For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. rsv

John is also a spiritual father to his children in the faith.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous. rsv

There is one God kind. There are three divine Persons in this one God kind.
There is only one God, but He is three different Persons.

John 6:32
Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. rsv

John 6:31-35
Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. rsv

Jesus' Father in heaven sent Jesus to earth to give life to the world. Jesus did not send himself to earth. Jesus is not His own Father.

There is one mankind, but there are both male and female persons in this one mankind.

One family is composed of one father, one mother, and one or more children.

There is one canidae family, but there are many different animals belonging to this one canine family. Dogs are part of this large taxonomic family called Canidae, which also includes wolves, coyotes, foxes and jackals. Members are called canids.

One God, but three distinct Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, rsv

How exactly does your claim "the" being missing change that Christ isn't claiming HE IS the "EVERLASTING FATHER"? IT DOESN'T> You do comprehend what the comma means in that verse don't you after it is simple grammar?

BornAgainChristian1 · May 6, 2016

Jan001 said:
If they deny their faith in Jesus whether they are scared or not, Jesus will also deny that He knows them. If Jesus denies that He knows them, He will also not approve them worthy to enter/inherit eternal life.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. nkjv

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. nkjv

Scripture states that they stopped following Him. This means that they did not believe what Jesus said. They thought Jesus was a liar and so this actually makes themselves the liars.

Scripture states that all liars are condemned.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.” rsv

Unless these people repented of their sin of disbelief before they died, they are indeed in hell.

Did Jesus deny Peter? The fact is you do not comprehend the verses you posted. To deny Jesus means you rejected salvation nothing more and nothing less.

Luke 8:50
When Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be saved.

Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thine household.

Romans 10:9
For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart, that God raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved:

1 Corinthians 15:2
And whereby ye are saved, if ye keep in memory, after what manner I preached it unto you, except ye have believed in vain.

John 10 : 28-29
28 And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of mine hand.
29 My Father which gave them me, is greater than all, and none is able to take them out of my Father’s hand.

Jan001 · May 6, 2016

Hoghead1 said:
Predestination is the proper theological term to use here. It means that God predetermined absolutely everything, right down to the smallest detail. It is based on the notion that God is omnipotent, a cosmic dictator in complete and total monopolistic control of teh universe. I and other contemporary theologians believe omnipotence is a major theological mistake, as it denies all freedom and makes God the author of all evil. In addition, it does not appear biblical.

People were predestined to eternal life before the foundation of the world, but this predestining/electing was done in accordance with God's foreknowledge of all future events on earth. It is not at all like the Calvinistic doctrine of Predestination.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. nkjv

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. nkjv

God did not arbitrarily choose some people to save and some people to condemn. God does not force people to obey Him and God does not prevent people from obeying Him. God does not force people to disobey Him and He does not prevent people from disobeying Him.

Before the foundation of the world, God knew which of the people that He would later create would still be faithful to Him at the time of their death. These people He predestined to eternal life. These people who He predestined to eternal life according to their works, He also called, justified, and glorified because He already knew all the works of every person before the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’” although the works were finished [known] from the foundation of the world. nkjv

Our works matter.

Matthew 13:36-43
Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “He who sows the good seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world, and the good seed means the sons of the kingdom; the weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42 and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. rsv

Jan001 · May 6, 2016

98cwitr said:
You don't seem to be addressing as to why God put the Tree there in the first place...especially with the foreknowledge they would eat from it.

God does not want puppets or slaves in His kingdom. He wants persons to freely choose to be with Him or not. But, to be with God, a person must love/obey God.

The tree was in the garden to test Adam's love for God. There is no love for God without obedience to God.

But, unfortunately Adam preferred to please Eve and eat the fruit instead of choosing to obey God and refuse to eat the fruit.

Adam failed the test of loyalty/obedience/love and so he and all his descendants were prohibited from any possibility of entering into eternal life. That is why God the Father sent Jesus to earth to atone for Adam's sin and thereby make it possible for people to enter into eternal life.

God allows only the people who love/obey Him to be with Him in eternity. If a person cannot be with Him because of their own disobedience, the only other choice for them to be is in hell.

The angels were also tested to see if they loved God most of all. Some failed the test and they are now known as fallen angels, demons, or devils. These fallen, unfaithful angels will also be in hell for eternity.

ToBeLoved · May 6, 2016

Jan001 said:
People were predestined to eternal life before the foundation of the world, but this predestining/electing was done in accordance with God's foreknowledge of all future events on earth. It is not at all like the Calvinistic doctrine of Predestination.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. nkjv

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. nkjv

God did not arbitrarily choose some people to save and some people to condemn. God does not force people to obey Him and God does not prevent people from obeying Him. God does not force people to disobey Him and He does not prevent people from disobeying Him.

Before the foundation of the world, God knew which of the people that He would later create would still be faithful to Him at the time of their death. These people He predestined to eternal life. These people who He predestined to eternal life according to their works, He also called, justified, and glorified because He already knew all the works of every person before the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’” although the works were finished [known] from the foundation of the world. nkjv

Our works matter.

Matthew 13:36-43
Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “He who sows the good seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world, and the good seed means the sons of the kingdom; the weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42 and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. rsv

Yes! foreknowledge. That's my new word in the Calvin conversation. Thanks or bringing that back to my attention. Knew I was looking for a word.

Jan001 · May 6, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Oh that's funny. Lol.

We live for our Lord but do not believe He is almighty. That makes no sense

Genesis 17:1
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. nkjv

Jan001 · May 6, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
How exactly does your claim "the" being missing change that Christ isn't claiming HE IS the "EVERLASTING FATHER"? IT DOESN'T> You do comprehend what the comma means in that verse don't you after it is simple grammar?

The Son is everlasting, correct? He always was, is, and always will be. That is the definition of everlasting.

Christ is an everlasting father to His children in the faith. "THE" would most likely mean only one everlasting Father. But, there is no "THE" in the correct translations so there can be more than just one everlasting Father. And there is. The other everlasting Father is GOD the FATHER of JESUS.

Mark 13:32
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. nkjv

Only Jesus' Father knew the day and hour of Jesus' second appearing/coming. Jesus had not been given this information at this time while He was on earth.

There are three divine Persons who are one God. They are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

keltoi · May 6, 2016

Rick Otto said:
That's pretty harsh.
No, not the cause of, the creator of. You're inability to distinguish the the two and the significance thereof is not anyone else's problem.

It doesn't make sense to say creator of but not cause of. If God didn't create sin there wouldn't be sin so by your line of thinking he is the cause of it. But your inability to distinguish that is your problem not anyone else's.

keltoi · May 6, 2016

98cwitr said:
And yet Paul said:

Romans 7:20
Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Oh silly Paul! Take some responsibility man!

I can pull scripture out of context as well. You know only a few verses later Paul says
"So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful natured a slave to the law of sin." which indicates we are puppets. Do you believe we are puppets? It is most certainly an easy way out but remember Matthew 7 specifically verse 23 where Jesus says "I never knew you, go away from me".

98cwitr said:
For your stance to be remotely logical, you will need to deny that God is either a) Omniscient; or b) The Creator. Which will it be?

Ah yes here it is the typical Greek thinking, it must be "logical" to the Greek mind, it has to fit in with the thought patterns of the western world. If it doesn't it can't be logical therefore it can't be true thus it can be reality. Now you have sunk again to giving options in an attempt to trap people into denying God's abilities. Sorry not falling for that little trick.

98cwitr said:
1. I don't blame God and never said that. He is the Omniscient Creator that brought EVERYTHING into being. That is what I have said in summary.

Everything includes freewill.

98cwitr said:
2. Don't care if it's the way I want or not, I just want them to answer it directly without sidestepping it for 4 pages.

It has been answered by being ignored, you didn't like it so you kept harping on about it. When it was answered with a reply you didn't like that either so you are still harping on about it. What is the major problem here? Is it people answering your question by ignoring it, or is it people answering with a reply that you don't like?

keltoi · May 6, 2016

Jan001 said:
RE: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Take a look at the screenshot, how many of these translations say evil?

keltoi · May 6, 2016

Rick Otto said:
Some people just aren't comfortable with God being almighty.
Remove that comfort at your own peril.
What use is righteousness if I can't take credit for it?

That is just wrong, no one has said God isn't almighty what has been said is that God doesn't control us in the way some are suggesting he does. We make our own choices and we fall before God admitting our errors as our own. We don't stand in front of God and say "you created everything so my sin is not my problem".
Who is trying to be righteous in that scenario, the people who admit they sin or the people who say God created sin so it isn't their problem?

Job8 · May 6, 2016

Rick Otto said:
Some people just aren't comfortable with God being almighty.

God can be (and is) Almighty without predetermining everything as relates to men (and possibly other creatures and plants). His almightiness is so great, that it has already factored in all the free choices which men will make, without interfering with His own plans and purposes. It actually diminishes God by claiming that He has predetermined every action (which is not even true). Indeed, it makes God entirely responsible for every sin and evil deed on this earth, and that is blasphemous.

ToBeLoved · May 6, 2016

98cwitr said:
And yet Paul said:

Romans 7:20
Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Oh silly Paul! Take some responsibility man!

.

Now that makes sense. You don't seem to understand the verse.

What is Paul saying?

BornAgainChristian1 · May 6, 2016

Jan001 said:
The Son is everlasting, correct? He always was, is, and always will be. That is the definition of everlasting.

Christ is an everlasting father to His children in the faith. "THE" would most likely mean only one everlasting Father. But, there is no "THE" in the correct translations so there can be more than just one everlasting Father. And there is. The other everlasting Father is GOD the FATHER of JESUS.

Mark 13:32
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. nkjv

Only Jesus' Father knew the day and hour of Jesus' second appearing/coming. Jesus had not been given this information at this time while He was on earth.

There are three divine Persons who are one God. They are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Do you just make things up as you go along because you can't admit you disagree with the bible?

Hoghead1 · May 6, 2016

Jan001 said:
Please explain who gave you the authority to infallibly interpret the Scriptures. You and other like-minded theologians believe that your own beliefs about the Trinity are not muddled, yet it is the church fathers who actually were given the authority of Jesus Christ to interpret their own Scriptures and it is they who were guided into the truth about the Trinity by the Holy Spirit. If your interpretations differ from theirs, it seems to me that you are the ones who are in error.

Your remarks show a complete and total ignorance about church history and the history of doctrine. So let me clue you in. The Bible is not a work in systematic theology or metaphysics. it tells us very little about how God is built. it provides snap shots and these often conflict,. It is up to the reader to put these together into a unified whole. The early fathers looked to Hellenic metaphysics for help here. Now, there were many schools of Hellenic philosophy, but those which predominated the scene tended to stress the unreality of time and change and the material universe. The truly divine, the "really real," was taken to be something wholly immaterial, simple, immutable. The Greeks enshrined the immune and the immutable. Incorporated into Christianity, this meant God was understood and described as a wholly simple, passionless, immutable, nonrelational being, a monad. Then the fathers tried to introduce the highly complex, relational machinery into this monad. The result was contradiction and confusion.
I don't believe anyone has infallible judgment. I respect the church fathers, Catholic and Protestant, but still reserve the right to think critically about what they have to say.

Patmos · May 7, 2016

In another thread we have come to an impasse with the meaning of words.

I wrote this:

Patmos said:
Word Definitions as requested.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ (hi-lights in red are mine)

WCF and Dort use the word 'Predestine' and 'Foreordain' a lot.

Definition of foreordain
transitive verb
: to dispose or appoint in advance : predestine

Definition of predestine
transitive verb
: to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand

Definition of predestinate
: destined, fated, or determined beforehand

Obviously we look past the word in blue. BUT, 'foreordain' has the SAME meaning as 'predestine' which means 'determine'. The words are interchangeable. Has this cleared things up? Please check any other dictionary if Webster's has got it wrong.

I was informed with:
"All of these words mean something completely different when used in another context, and a general definition does little more than give a meaning that incorporates all of the possible uses at once."

Webster's does give many meanings for these words but I have focused on the Biblical ones. I have asked where these words mean something completely different and what is that different meaning.

The reason I ask is because Westminster Confessions says:

CHAPTER 1 Part 7.
"All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, Nor alike clear unto all yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them."

Therefore, I assert, an unlearned person such as myself in the due use of ordinary means - a dictionary - may attain sufficient understanding of those things necessary for salvation.

Can anybody help with how these words mean something completely different?

keltoi · May 7, 2016

Patmos said:
In another thread we have come to an impasse with the meaning of words.

I wrote this:

I was informed with:
"All of these words mean something completely different when used in another context, and a general definition does little more than give a meaning that incorporates all of the possible uses at once."

Webster's does give many meanings for these words but I have focused on the Biblical ones. I have asked where these words mean something completely different and what is that different meaning.

The reason I ask is because Westminster Confessions says:

CHAPTER 1 Part 7.
"All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, Nor alike clear unto all yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them."

Therefore, I assert, an unlearned person such as myself in the due use of ordinary means - a dictionary - may attain sufficient understanding of those things necessary for salvation.

Can anybody help with how these words mean something completely different?

I'd be asking for examples where these words mean different things.

Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

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