Futurist Only Damascus and animals

Psalm3704 · Apr 14, 2016

keras said:
He judged the world in Noah's time. And now the world is again: as in the days of Noah.
You show your lack of knowledge of all the prophesies about the forthcoming Day of the Lord's wrath by fire, a Day described quite differently from the Day of Jesus' visible Return.

No Keras, as usual you're wrong while revealing a lack of bible knowledge. Christ was given authority to judge during His time on earth in Matthew 28:18. After His millennial reign when He puts all power and authority beneath Him, He'll have over that authority back to God, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. Afterwards, God will once again judge everything and everybody, Revelation 20:11-13.

Matthew 28:18 Good News Translation (GNT)
Jesus drew near and said to them, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Good News Translation (GNT)
24 Then the end will come; Christ will overcome all spiritual rulers, authorities, and powers, and will hand over the Kingdom to God the Father. 25 For Christ must rule until God defeats all enemies and puts them under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be defeated will be death. 27 For the scripture says, “God put all things under his feet.” It is clear, of course, that the words “all things” do not include God himself, who puts all things under Christ. 28 But when all things have been placed under Christ's rule, then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God, who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.

Revelation 20:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

keras said:
He judged the world in Noah's time. And now the world is again: as in the days of Noah.
You show your lack of knowledge of all the prophesies about the forthcoming Day of the Lord's wrath by fire, a Day described quite differently from the Day of Jesus' visible Return.

If I stoop down to your level and interpret scripture your way, maybe you'll understand this. As in the days of Noah, the Day of the Lord's wrath isn't by fire, it's by water and flood.

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Bible2+ · Apr 14, 2016

keras said in post 217:

The Sixth Seal is the next prophesied event . . .

Actually, it isn't. For preceding the 6th seal event (of Revelation 6:12-17) will occur the 2nd through 4th seals, otherwise known as the last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8). They represent a horrible, future war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

One way this war could happen is the U.S. could undertake a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army, initially to bring about the total defeat of the Islamic State militant group (also known as ISIS, or ISIL, or Daesh) in Iraq, and eventually so that the Iraqi Army can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (i.e. that which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein), to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly.

And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein's rule), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For they could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to defeat Islamic State, and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform. For they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

Indeed, the current military brains of the Islamic State are former Iraqi Baathist generals who can't stand that the Iraqi government has come completely under the thumb of Iran. They see (Sunni Arab) Islamic State as the only current viable bulwark against the Iranians and the Shiite Arabs taking control of all of Iraq and Syria. These generals could "defect" from serving Islamic State to serving a non-sectarian Iraqi Army drawn mainly (not exclusively) from Sunni Arab and Kurdish militias in western and northern Iraq, which with secret Western assistance could completely overthrow the current Iraqi government in Baghdad, which is very weak and corrupt.

Once the Iraqi Baathists take back control of Iraq, in order to help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of a subsequent, all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, "false flag" operations could be managed by the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false "Messiah": cf. Matthew 24:24) could completely destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, in order to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

keras said in post 217:

The Sixth Seal is the next prophesied event, followed by the gathering of the Lord's people into the holy Land as described in Revelation 7:9.

Regarding Revelation 7:9-17, there the great multitude can be that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

keras said in post 217:

I could post dozens of prophesies proving this, but Ezekiel 36 is one of the best:
Ezekiel 36:4-38

Ezekiel chapters 36-37 could refer to a restoration of the Jews to their land during the future millennium.

For right before the millennium, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus himself (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will be ashamed, and will all weep and become saved when they see Jesus and realize that he truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

keras quoted a verse in post 217:

I shall settle on you many people - the whole 12 tribes of Israel . . .

Note that the Jews include individuals from all 12 tribes of Israel, for there are no lost tribes, insofar as the 10 northern tribes weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC, the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the 10 northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history.

For some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom, when it first become idolatrous, some individuals from all 10 of the northern tribes left the northern kingdom to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so by definition they all became Jews. Also, some individuals from the 10 northern tribes remained in the land of Israel even after its defeat by Assyria, and some of them went to Judah at the time of Hezekiah (2 Chronicles 30). It is for these reasons that later the Jews who returned from the Babylonian Captivity could be referred to as "all Israel" (Ezra 2:70, Ezra 6:17, Ezra 8:25,35, Ezra 10:5, Nehemiah 7:73, Nehemiah 12:47), and why the Jews living in the 1st century AD could be referred to as including all 12 tribes (Acts 26:7, James 1:1, Acts 2:36,22,5), and why at that time Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the so-called "lost" tribes.

So the people alive today who are descended genetically from a 1st century AD Jew would include individuals from all 12 tribes. Some of these descendants could know that they are Jews because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and didn't intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years eventually abandoned their Jewish identity, and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today are almost entirely Gentile genetically. Similarly, regarding the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity: over the past 2,700 years, their descendants must have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity and freely intermarried with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today would know themselves only as Gentiles, and would be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

keras quoted a verse in post 217:

The nations still left around you will know that it is I, the Lord who has done this. Jesus is not present as yet.

Note that nothing requires that Jesus is not present (i.e. by his 2nd coming) at the time of the restoration in Ezekiel chapters 36-37.

keras said in post 217:

The prophet Ezekiel, who was commissioned to prophesy specifically to the House of Israel: Ezekiel 2:3 . . .

Ezekiel 2:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

Here the "children of Israel" simply means those descended from Jacob (Israel: Genesis 32:28), who include all Jews. That is why Ezekiel prophesied to the Jews in Jerusalem (e.g. Ezekiel 16) and to the Jews in captivity in Chaldea (e.g. Ezekiel 11:25). And in Ezekiel 8, the sins going on in the Jerusalem of his time (e.g. Ezekiel 8:3-17) were called, interchangeably, the sins of the house of Israel (Ezekiel 8:6,10-12) and the sins of the house of Judah (Ezekiel 8:17). For "the house of Israel" can include all 12 tribes (e.g. Exodus 16:31, Leviticus 17:10, Numbers 20:29, Joshua 21:45, Ruth 4:11; 1 Samuel 7:3; 2 Samuel 1:12).

The (at that time) upcoming captivity in the book of Ezekiel was King Zedekiah's captivity (2 Kings 24:17 to 25:11), not (as is sometimes claimed) the already-fulfilled captivity of King Jehoiachin (2 Kings 24:10-16). Through Ezekiel, who was already in captivity in Chaldea (Ezekiel 1:1-3), God was warning the Jews still living in Jerusalem that the day of their own captivity was coming (Ezekiel 12:10-11). Ezekiel 12:12-13 even foretold the details which would be later described in the historical account of 2 Kings 25:4-7.

keras said in post 217:

The prophet Ezekiel, who was commissioned to prophesy specifically to the House of Israel: Ezekiel 2:3, wrote chapter 36, giving the story of how God will, in His burning zeal, clear the evil neighbours . . .

Ezekiel 36:5a Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen . . .

Here the fire could refer to the same fire as 2 Thessalonians 1:8, which will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which will occur right before the millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

keras said in post 217:

The prophet Ezekiel, who was commissioned to prophesy specifically to the House of Israel: Ezekiel 2:3, wrote chapter 36, giving the story of how God will, in His burning zeal, clear the evil neighbours, Jeremiah 12: 14] out of all the holy Land.

Jeremiah 12:14 ¶Thus saith the LORD against all mine evil neighbours, that touch the inheritance which I have caused my people Israel to inherit; Behold, I will pluck them out of their land, and pluck out the house of Judah from among them.
15 And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return, and have compassion on them, and will bring them again, every man to his heritage, and every man to his land.

This can refer to the destruction of the pagan nations neighboring ancient Judah, as well as ancient Judah itself, by the Babylonians in 586 BC. Jeremiah 12:15 can then refer to Judah's subsequent return from the Babylonian Captivity.

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keras said in post 218:

He is not seen on that Day. Psalms 11:4-6 . . .

Psalms 11:6 can refer to Revelation 20:9b, which is the same event as Ezekiel 38:22.

Also, note that in Revelation 20:9b, the original Greek word (katesthio: G2719) translated as "devoured" doesn't require that bodies will be cremated by the fire from heaven, just as the same Greek word was used in John 2:17, 2 Corinthians 11:20, and Galatians 5:15 to refer to people whose bodies still existed. For those killed by the fire from heaven in Revelation 20:9b and Ezekiel 38:22 will still have to be buried (Ezekiel 39:11-15).

keras said in post 218:

He is not seen on that Day. Psalms 11:4-6, Romans 1:18

Regarding Romans 1:18, note that it doesn't require that Jesus won't be seen at any of its fulfillments, such as at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11-21; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). I.e., with regard to the 2nd coming, Romans 1:18's "heaven", like Revelation 19:11's "heaven", can simply be the 1st heaven, the sky/atmosphere.

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keras said in post 220:

He judged the world in Noah's time. And now the world is again: as in the days of Noah.

Regarding "as in the days of Noah", note that Matthew 24:37-41 refers to "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-30).

Matthew 24:37-41 means that the unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it actually happens. For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (of Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9); and the power that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36); and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected 1st battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

keras said in post 220:

Isaiah 30:26-28 & 30 The sun will shine with 7 times its normal strength... on the Day the Lord sieves out the nations for destruction. His arm will descend in fierce anger, with devouring flames of fire....

Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
27 ¶Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
28 And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.

Isaiah 30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

Regarding Isaiah 30:26, note that it (like Isaiah 62:4) is about the future, blessed time of the millennium (Isaiah 30:18-26). The bright sun in Isaiah 30:26 is a good thing, just as the bright moon and the healing in Isaiah 30:26 are good things.

Then Isaiah 30:27 starts a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in some copies of the KJV. And Isaiah 30:27 also takes a step back chronologically from Isaiah 30:26, like how, for example, Matthew 14:3 takes a step back chronologically from Matthew 14:2. For Isaiah 30:27-33 is about Jesus' 2nd coming (right before the millennium), when he will come in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Regarding Isaiah 30:30-33, it could refer to the Antichrist's defeat at Jesus' 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20).

keras said in post 220:

Isaiah 34:1-8...The Lords anger is against all the nations...My Sword of destruction appears in the heavens and descends in judgement upon the peoples doomed for destruction. The sky will roll up like a scroll.....

Isaiah 34:1-8 indeed refers to a future event which will affect "all nations" (Isaiah 34:2), the whole world (Isaiah 34:1).

For in Isaiah 34:5, "Idumea" (Edom) isn't (as is sometimes claimed) the ancient nation of Edom (present-day southern Jordan), but represents all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as Paul the apostle employs a reference to the man "Esau" (also called Edom: Genesis 25:30, Genesis 36:1) to represent all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world (Romans 9:11-22). And in Isaiah 34:6, "Bozrah" isn't the ancient city of Bozrah, but represents the corrupt civilizations of the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as the "Babylon" which will be destroyed in our future in Revelation chapters 17-18 isn't the literal, ancient city of Babylon (nor the present-day one, in Iraq), but represents the corrupt civilizations of the nonelect people of all times throughout the world.

Isaiah 34 doesn't refer to the destruction of the ancient city of Bozrah. For its territory is in present-day Jordan, and it is still inhabited (it could be the city of Busaira). It is not an eternally-burning land of fire and brimstone which no living person ever passes through and won't ever pass through for all eternity (Isaiah 34:9-10).

Isaiah 34 won't be fulfilled until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), when the present surface of the earth and its atmosphere (the 1st heaven) will pass away (Revelation 20:11). And all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world will be judged and cast into the eternal lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15,10, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 14:10-11).

keras said in post 220:

Isaiah 51:6 The sky will be dispersed like smoke.....

Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

This brings to mind Hebrews 1:10-12, which refers to when the current atmosphere (the 1st heaven) and the surface of the earth will be destroyed and replaced/changed into the eternal new heaven and earth (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:12-13).

keras said in post 220:

Joel 2:31 The sun will become dark and the moon red as blood.....

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 2:31a refers to the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12), part of the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapter 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. The 6th seal will happen only 6 or 7 years before Jesus' 2nd coming, which will be the future day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10),

keras said in post 220:

Acts 2:19-20 ...signs in the sky and on earth, blood, fire and smoke....the moon will turn red as blood....

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

This is quoting from:

Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

In Joel 2:30, the "pillars of smoke" bring to mind the stalks of mushroom clouds generated by nuclear detonations, which could occur during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Bible2+ · Apr 14, 2016

Psalm3704 said in post 221:

Christ was given authority to judge during His time on earth in Matthew 28:18. After His millennial reign when He puts all power and authority beneath Him, He'll have over that authority back to God, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

That's right, but after both his millennial reign and the great white throne judgment.

That is, the "end" in 1 Corinthians 15:24 will be at the end of all the future, never-fulfilled events of Revelation 19:7 to 20:15.

For only after the great white throne judgment (of Revelation 20:11-15) will Jesus have "put all enemies under his feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), including death itself (1 Corinthians 15:26), which will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:14). Only after that will Jesus deliver up the kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). Then a new heaven (a new 1st heaven/sky/atmosphere) and a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven to the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).

Psalm3704 said in post 221:

Afterwards, God will once again judge everything and everybody, Revelation 20:11-13.

"God" in Revelation 20:12 refers to Jesus (John 5:22), just as "God" in Revelation 21:6-7 refers to Jesus (cf. Revelation 22:12-13, Revelation 1:7-8, John 20:28, John 21:5), and "God" in Revelation 22:6-7 refers to Jesus (cf. Revelation 22:16).

keras · Apr 14, 2016

Psalm3704 said:
Christ was given authority to judge during His time on earth in Matthew 28:18

Correct, and He hasn't exercised that right yet, but He will on the Day He winnows the nations in His fiery anger, Matthew 3:12, Psalms 110:6, Habakkuk 3:12

Psalm3704 said:
As in the days of Noah, the Day of the Lord's wrath isn't by fire, it's by water and flood.

Genesis 9:11...I shall never again flood the earth..... But the world is reserved for judgement by fire. 2 Peter 3:7
It's just too easy for me to refute your glaring errors. Please cease posting such unbiblical nonsense.

Psalm3704, here's one thing we can agree on: don't bother replying to Bible2+, as he takes no notice of what anyone else thinks!

Bible2+ · Apr 16, 2016

keras said in post 224:

He hasn't exercised that right yet . . .

That's right.

For Jesus isn't yet exercising his omnipotence (of Matthew 28:18) to the extent of physically subjugating the kings of the earth, like he will do during the future millennium (Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:9-21).

As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the 1st century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise physically from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now there ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:9-21) with a rod of iron with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he is Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

keras said in post 224:

He hasn't exercised that right yet, but He will on the Day He winnows the nations in His fiery anger, Matthew 3:12, Psalms 110:6, Habakkuk 3:12

Regarding Matthew 3:12, it will be fulfilled at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15). For in Matthew 3:12, the unquenchable fire is the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11). And in Matthew 3:12, the wheat and the chaff represent the same things as the parable of the wheat and the tares.

Regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43), in Matthew 13:38 the good seed are the elect, and the tares are the nonelect, the human children of Satan, who can't ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 will occur at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

keras said in post 224:

He hasn't exercised that right yet, but He will on the Day He winnows the nations in His fiery anger, Matthew 3:12, Psalms 110:6, Habakkuk 3:12

Regarding Psalms 110:6, it will be fulfilled at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11-21).

keras said in post 224:

He hasn't exercised that right yet, but He will on the Day He winnows the nations in His fiery anger, Matthew 3:12, Psalms 110:6, Habakkuk 3:12

Regarding Habakkuk 3:12, it brings to mind Jesus' future, 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:3).

Psalm3704 · Apr 16, 2016

keras said:
Genesis 9:11...I shall never again flood the earth..... But the world is reserved for judgement by fire. 2 Peter 3:7
It's just too easy for me to refute your glaring errors. Please cease posting such unbiblical nonsense.

Not so fast Keras. When I stoop down to your level, it's just as easy for me to do the same thing.

Isaiah 28:2
Behold, the Lord has a mighty and strong one, Like a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, Like a flood of mighty waters overflowing, Who will bring them down to the earth with His hand.

Jeremiah 47:2
Thus says the Lord: “Behold, waters rise out of the north, And shall be an overflowing flood; They shall overflow the land and all that is in it, The city and those who dwell within; Then the men shall cry, And all the inhabitants of the land shall wail.

Ezekiel 13:11
say to those who plaster it with untempered mortar, that it will fall. There will be flooding rain, and you, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall tear it down.

Ezekiel 13:13
Therefore thus says the Lord God: “I will cause a stormy wind to break forth in My fury; and there shall be a flooding rain in My anger, and great hailstones in fury to consume it.

Daniel 9:26
“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 11:22
With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also the prince of the covenant.

Joel 3:18
And it will come to pass in that day That the mountains shall drip with new wine, The hills shall flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water; A fountain shall flow from the house of the Lord And water the Valley of Acacias.

Nahum 1:8
But with an overflowing flood He will make an utter end of its place, And darkness will pursue His enemies.

.

keras · Apr 17, 2016

While you deny plain scriptures that prove the Lord's judgement on His Day of wrath, is by fire, it is impossible for us to discuss Bible issues.
I have posted over 100 prophesies saying how the Lord will use the sun to literally fulfill what will happen on that Day. That is my unshakeable belief and you like to think a flood would be nicer, get started on your ark!
I have an insulated container, [mainly for the unbelievers of my family] so we will see who can stand the heat. Could be any Day now, I see the sun has a sunspot right now, many times bigger that earth.

Psalm3704 · Apr 17, 2016

keras said:
While you deny plain scriptures that prove the Lord's judgement on His Day of wrath, is by fire, it is impossible for us to discuss Bible issues.
I have posted over 100 prophesies saying how the Lord will use the sun to literally fulfill what will happen on that Day.

keras said:
I know the Sixth Seal very well, it will be the next prophesied event, that will reset our civilization.
It is described in over 100 other prophesies as a worldwide disaster of fire from the sun, causing terrible earthquakes, storms, tsunamis and destroying all our modern infrastructure.

And while you can post 100 plus prophecies about your global apocalyptic CME fire from the sun striking and harming the earth at the 6th seal, your theory can be refuted with one verse: Revelation 6:12.

Revelation 6:12 New King James Version (NKJV)
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

At the 6th seal, it's a solar eclipse and a blood moon, not a CME. It doesn't get anymore clearer than Revelation 6:12.

.

keras · Apr 17, 2016

Psalm3704 said:
And while you can post 100 plus prophecies about your global apocalyptic CME fire from the sun striking and harming the earth at the 6th seal, your theory can be refuted with one verse: Revelation 6:12.

Your lack of knowledge about CME's is very evident. Are you too frightened that such a horrible prospect might actually affect your lifestyle?
The initial flash of an explosion of the sun will be seen from the earth. Isaiah 30:26...the sun will shine with 7 times its normal brightness....this must be a tremendously bright flash, but will only last for a few minutes. The electro-magnetic and microwave effects will strike earth at the same time. Deuteronomy 32:22
But then, as the expelled mass moves out, toward earth, it will obscure the sun: darkening it. Also the powerful EMP pulse will make anything electrical explode and burn out, all switchboards will burst into flames making most buildings burn down. The fires and smoke will darken the sky.
The mitigating factor is that this initial flash will affect just the half of the earth facing the sun. Zephaniah 2:4 tells us it will happen at midday Middle Eastern time. So look at a globe and see if you will be hit then, In New Zealand, I won't see the flash, but I should hear the sound. Jeremiah 25:30-31
But then the main mass of superheated hydrogen will arrive 24 hours later. THAT will dramatically affect the entire planet, Isaiah 29:6, Isaiah 66:15-16, Psalms 11:4-6, Romans 1:18, Zephaniah 3:8 and many others.

Bible2+ · Apr 18, 2016

keras said in post 229:

In New Zealand, I won't see the flash, but I should hear the sound. Jeremiah 25:30-31

Regarding Jeremiah 25:30-31, note that it could refer to Jesus' 2nd coming. For compare the shout and treading of Jeremiah 25:30b with the 2nd-coming shout and treading of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 19:15b. And compare the giving of the wicked to the sword in Jeremiah 25:31b with the 2nd-coming giving of the wicked to the sword in Revelation 19:21.

keras said in post 229:

But then the main mass of superheated hydrogen will arrive 24 hours later. THAT will dramatically affect the entire planet, Isaiah 29:6 . . .

Regarding Isaiah 29:6, note that it could refer to Jesus' 2nd coming. For compare the flame of devouring fire in Isaiah 29:6b with the 2nd-coming flaming fire in 2 Thessalonians 1:8. And compare the defeat of Jerusalem's enemies in Isaiah 29:7 with the 2nd-coming defeat of Jerusalem's enemies in Zechariah 14:3,12.

keras · Apr 18, 2016

Bible2+ said:
Regarding Jeremiah 25:30-31, note that it could refer to Jesus' 2nd coming.

Bible2+ said:
Regarding Isaiah 29:6, note that it could refer to Jesus' 2nd coming

But they don't.
And that fact is very evident when the context is read, also the 3 descriptions we have about the Return of Jesus in His glory don't mention that the Return will be a worldwide judgement by fire. Zechariah 14:3-7, Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21
Your placement of the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's wrath at the Return, is an error and violates the given sequence of Revelation.

keras · Apr 25, 2016

Isaiah 34:1-3 Approach, you nations and listen – attend you peoples. Let the earth listen, all the world and all that is in it. For the Lords anger is against all the nations and His wrath upon all their armies. He has given them over to slaughter and destruction. Joel 2:1-11
Their slain will be flung out and their blood will cover the ground. Their dead bodies will stink. Jeremiah 25:33

Isaiah 34:4-5 All the host of heaven will fade away. The sky will roll up as a scroll.
For My sword appears in heaven and descends in judgement on Edom – on a people whom I have doomed for destruction. Jeremiah 49:7-22

Isaiah 34:6-17 The Lord has a sword covered in blood – the blood of lambs and goats.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah and a great slaughter in Edom. Their land will drink deep of their blood and be enriched by their fat. Obadiah 1-21
For the Lord has a Day of vengeance, a time for retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause. Zechariah 9:14-17 Edom’s rivers will be turned into pitch and it’s soil into brimstone. Smoke from it will rise forever, no one will ever again pass through it. The owl and raven will make it their home. All wild birds and beasts will have their place in that land. Jeremiah 9:7-22 Ref. Revised English Bible, some verses condensed.

From verse 4, we get the clue that this terrible Day of the Lords vengeance is also the Sixth Seal – Rev 6:12-17 .....There was a violent earthquake; the sun turned black and the moon as red as blood, stars fell to the earth, the sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up. The kings of the earth, the rich and powerful, and all men hid themselves in caves and under rocks: they called out for the earth to hide them from the One who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great Day of their vengeance has come and who can stand? Isaiah 2:12-21

Isaiah 63:1-6... the judgement on Edom and Bozrah. Edom: the ungodly nations.” A people doomed for destruction”. Bozrah: the sheepfold, must be cleansed to become the place of safety, to which the elect will be taken, during the Tribulation. A place “at the end of the earth” a place as far as possible from Israel. Revelation 12:13-16

Rev 7:1-8 After that......[the Sixth Seal disaster] Do not damage anything further until we have set the seal of God upon His servants.

These are the 144,000 from all the 12 tribes of Israel. They go out in pairs to spread the good news of the coming Kingdom of God. Isaiah 66:19, Luke 10:1-10: 72+72 X 1000 = 144,000 This proves the Lord’s people; all righteous Christian Israelites, Galatians 3:26-29, must gather into the Land soon after it is cleansed, so the Lord’s Day of vengeance must be before the Return.
Isaiah 30:26 describes the sun being 7 times stronger and these passages in Isaiah 34 and Joel 1:15-20 describe the results of that event, the land burnt and devastated.
The effect of ‘the sky rolled up like a scroll’ will be what would happen if a huge Coronal Mass Ejection was exploded from the sun, by a huge sunspot. It would cause terrible loss of life and worldwide disaster. Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7 and about 70 other verses also prophesy about this forthcoming fire judgement on all the earth’s nations.

Bible2+ · Apr 26, 2016

keras said in post 232:

Jeremiah 49:7-22

Note that this could include reference to a destruction of ancient Edom, perhaps one that occurred sometime subsequent to the destruction of ancient Judah (and many other countries) by the Babylonians in 586 BC, which happened in the time of the prophet Jeremiah (cf. Jeremiah 27:1-10).

keras said in post 232:

Obadiah 1-21

Obadiah 1:1-16 can include reference to the destruction of ancient Edom that occurred sometime subsequent to the destruction of ancient Judah by the Babylonians in 586 BC (cf. Jeremiah 27:1-10). Obadiah 1:17-21 can then include reference to the return of the Jews to Judah in 538 BC, after the Babylonian Captivity (cf. Psalms 137, Ezekiel 35).

keras said in post 232:

Zechariah 9:14-17

This refers to Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will be seen (Zechariah 9:14, Matthew 24:30) and the trumpet of God shall be blown (Zechariah 9:14, Matthew 24:31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16). Zechariah 9:15-16 refers to the same thing as Zechariah 14:3-5,14.

keras said in post 232:

Jeremiah 9:7-22

This could refer to Judah's destruction by the Babylonians in 586 BC.

keras said in post 232:

Isaiah 2:12-21

Note that the day of the Lord in Isaiah 2:10-21 has to begin at the 2nd coming, not at the 6th seal, which will occur during only the 1st stage of the tribulation. For during the 2nd half of the tribulation, it is Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") who will be exalted by the world (Revelation 13:4-18), not the Lord, contradicting "the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day" (Isaiah 2:17).

Also, during the 2nd half of the tribulation, the world will worship the ultimate idol, the image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:14-15), contradicting that in that day "the idols he [the Lord] shall utterly abolish" (Isaiah 2:18).

So the people hiding in the rocks at the 2nd coming (Isaiah 2:19-21) has to be a separate instance from the people hiding in the rocks at one point during only the 1st stage of the tribulation (Revelation 6:15-16). It is not like people can hide in rocks only one time. Some people did it way back in 1 Samuel 13:6, for example. And Hosea 10:8b refers to the fall of Samaria in 722 BC (Hosea 10:7-8). And Luke 23:30 can include reference to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD (Luke 23:28-30). So Revelation 6:16 can be just one more instance, years before the 2nd coming in Isaiah 2:10-21, where "the glory of his majesty" is the same as in Matthew 24:30, at the 2nd coming.

keras said in post 232:

Isaiah 63:1-6

This refers to Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will be the only one to fight the battle (Revelation 19:15,21), to tread the winepress of God's wrath (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15b).

Similarly, Daniel 12:7b means that at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will come to a church which has been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

keras said in post 232:

Revelation 12:13-16

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different, protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15), they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of canned food, bottled water, warm clothing and bedding, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

keras said in post 232:

Isaiah 66:19

This refers to during the future millennium, after Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 66:15-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when Jesus will send out evangelists/missionaries to the nations to preach the gospel and tell them all about the returned Jesus' fame and glory in Jerusalem (Isaiah 66:19), so that people will want to come up to Jerusalem to serve him (Isaiah 66:20-21, Micah 4:2, Zechariah 8:22-23).

People will be saved by Jesus during the millennium in the same way that people have always been saved by Jesus: through faith in him (John 3:16,36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12) and his New Covenant sacrifice for our sins (Matthew 26:28, Romans 3:25) and his physical resurrection from the dead on the 3rd day after his death (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 10:9).

Those saved during the millennium will grow old and die just as people always have, but after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) they will be resurrected at the great white throne judgment along with all unsaved people of all times (Revelation 20:11-15). That is why not everyone at the great white throne judgment will be cast into the lake of fire, but only the unsaved (Revelation 20:15).

keras said in post 232:

Malachi 4:1

This can refer to the burning up of wicked people who will still be alive at Jesus' 2nd coming in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

keras · Apr 26, 2016

Jeremiah 49:7-22

Bible2+ said:
Note that this could include reference to a destruction of ancient Edom, perhaps one that occurred sometime subsequent to the destruction of ancient Judah (and many other countries) by the Babylonians in 586 BC, which happened in the time of the prophet Jeremiah (cf. Jeremiah 27:1-10).

But it doesn't, because people are still living there, as I know from having visited that area. Jeremiah 49:18

Bible2+ said:
Obadiah 1:1-16 can include reference to the destruction of ancient Edom that occurred sometime subsequent to the destruction of ancient Judah by the Babylonians in 586 BC (cf. Jeremiah 27:1-10). Obadiah 1:17-21 can then include reference to the return of the Jews to Judah in 538 BC, after the Babylonian Captivity (cf. Psalms 137, Ezekiel 35).

But it doesn't, because the Jews never controlled the mountains of Esau then. Obadiah 21

Zechariah 9:14-17

Bible2+ said:
This refers to Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will be seen (Zechariah 9:14, Matthew 24:30) and the trumpet of God shall be blown (Zechariah 9:14, Matthew 24:31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16). Zechariah 9:15-16 refers to the same thing as Zechariah 14:3-5,14.

This prophecy does not refer to the Return of Jesus in His glory, seen by all. The 'appearing' is the same as 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, where He is 'revealed in blazing fire and shows His glory only to believers'.
The Lord's people will adorn the holy Land, before the Return, Isaiah 35:1-10

Jeremiah 9:7-22

Bible2+ said:
This could refer to Judah's destruction by the Babylonians in 586 BC.

But it doesn't because the towns of Judah were never totally without inhabitants, at that time. Verse 11.
Jeremiah 7:21 is repeated in Joel 2:9 and refers to the forthcoming Lord's Day of wrath by fire from the sun, that will literally 'come in the windows and kill people everywhere.

Bible2+ said:
Note that the day of the Lord in Isaiah 2:10-21 has to begin at the 2nd coming, not at the 6th seal, which will occur during only the 1st stage of the tribulation

Wrong. Revelation 6:17 says the Sixth Seal IS the Day of the Lord's wrath. It WILL be a Day of terrible cosmic and earthly events, when the Lord arises to strike the world with terror, Isaiah 2:19
How does Isaiah 2:20 fit with the Return? Impossible, as the Great Trib just happened.

Bible2+ said:
Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different, protected wilderness places around the world

Maybe, but I don't see that idea in Revelation 12:6 & 13-16. It reads as one group, flown to a place prepared by God.

Bible2+ said:
This refers to during the future millennium, after Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 66:15-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when Jesus will send out evangelists/missionaries to the nations to preach the gospel and tell them all about the returned Jesus' fame and glory in Jerusalem (Isaiah 66:19), so that people will want to come up to Jerusalem to serve him

This premise is wrong , as we know from Revelation 1:7, when Jesus Returns, every eye will see Him and will lament....
The Good news that the 144,000, referred to in Isaiah 66:19, will proclaim is the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 14:6 No need for preaching to the survivor's of the nations after the Return, they won't get rain if they don't come and worship the King. Zechariah 14:16-17

Bible2+ said:
This can refer to the burning up of wicked people who will still be alive at Jesus' 2nd coming in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

But Malachi 4:1 & 3 and 2 Thess. 1:7-10 both refer to the Day the Lord takes action, in His fiery wrath, not His Return. A great and terrible Day, Malachi 4:5b Not to be confused with the glorious Day of the Return, where He disposes of Satan and is army, then commences His Millennial reign.
Why must you combine two events into one? You know that the earth was judged by water in Noah's time and now it is due for another similar judgement, as 2 Peter 3:5-7 clearly tells us. The heavens and the earth will NOT burn at Jesus' Return, but the will when the Lord causes the sun to explode, Isaiah 30:26, Psalms 50:1-3

Bible2+ · Apr 27, 2016

keras said in post 234:

Jeremiah 49:18

This can include the meaning that ancient Edom was uninhabited for awhile after its defeat (cf. Malachi 1:3). I.e., Jeremiah 49:18 doesn't require that the area would never become inhabited again. For even Sodom will become inhabited again during the millennium (Ezekiel 16:53-56).

keras said in post 234:

Obadiah 21

After the return of the Jews from the Babylonian Captivity in 538 BC, some of them could have occupied the area of Edom, just as some of them lived there after Judah's destruction in 586 BC (Jeremiah 40:11). And Obadiah 1:21 could have a more complete fulfillment during the millennium.

keras said in post 234:

Isaiah 35:1-10

This refers to the millennium.

Sorrow will flee away (Isaiah 35:10) from obedient believers at Jesus' 2nd coming, when physical death will be no more for them. For at that time, they will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal physical bodies like Jesus was resurrected into at his 1st coming, on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

1 Corinthians 15:54b quotes from Isaiah 25:8, which also includes God wiping away the tears of saved people, and which also shows that this will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:9), just as Isaiah 25:6 refers to the feast which will occur at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:9 to 20:6). Right after the 2nd coming will occur the millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), which is the time frame of Isaiah 35:8-10, as well as of Isaiah 11:6-16, right before which the 2nd coming is referred to (Isaiah 11:4, cf. Revelation 19:7-21).

Isaiah 65:19 and Revelation 21:4 will be during the new earth (Isaiah 65:17, Revelation 21:1), which won't be created until after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 21:1).

keras said in post 234:

But it doesn't because the towns of Judah were never totally without inhabitants, at that time. [Jer. 9] Verse 11.

Actually, they could have been, at least for a short time, after the Babylonians destroyed Judah in 586 BC.

keras said in post 234:

Jeremiah 7:21 is repeated in Joel 2:9 . . .

Jeremiah 7:21 ¶Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.

Joel 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

Did you mean Jeremiah 9:21 instead?

Jeremiah 9:21 For death is come up into our windows, and is entered into our palaces, to cut off the children from without, and the young men from the streets.

If so, note that Jeremiah 9:21 can refer to 586 BC, while Joel 2:9 could refer to centuries later. For Joel 2:1-27 can refer poetically to a literal locust invasion which destroyed ancient Israel's crops (Joel 2:25) sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD (Joel 2:28-29, Acts 2:16-18). For the day of the Lord in Joel 2:1-27 can refer to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. Both of these ancient days of the Lord can be different than the future day of the Lord (Joel 2:31), which won't start until sometime after (as in only a few years after) the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12, Joel 2:31) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Joel 2:1 referring only to Zion, the holy mountain, and to the land, can mean that it is referring only to a localized day of the Lord which affected only the ancient Israelites on their land. Joel 2:2 can refer to a huge cloud of literal locusts darkening the skies of Israel. Just as literal ants can be referred to as "a people" (Hebrew: "am": H5971) (Proverbs 30:25), so a huge cloud of devouring locusts can be referred to poetically as "a great people (H5971) and a strong" (Joel 2:2). Joel 2:3b describes the effects of a locust invasion, which can be poetically expressed as being like a devouring fire (Joel 2:3a). Joel 2:4 can describe locusts running along the ground as looking like little horses. Joel 2:5 can poetically describe locusts leaping high, and devouring every plant down even to its stubble. "A strong people set in battle array" (Joel 2:5) brings to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands", i.e. distributed into ranks (Hebrew: "chatsats": H2686) (Proverbs 30:27).

Joel 2:6 can poetically describe the immense grief felt by the ancient Israelites as they witnessed all their crops being devoured by the locust swarm. Joel 2:7 can describe locusts running along the ground and climbing up walls. "They shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks" (Joel 2:7) again brings to mind another poetic description of a literal locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands" (Proverbs 30:27). Joel 2:8 can refer to the locusts in the swarm not attacking each other, and to how useless a sword was in fighting against them. Because locusts are small and have an exoskeleton, they can just bounce off a swinging sword as they fly along. Joel 2:9 can refer to locusts running along the ground through a city, climbing up onto the walls of buildings and into windows looking for food anywhere they can.

Joel 2:10 can be poetic hyperbole to express how terrible the locust swarm was to the land of Israel, and how the swarm was so vast that it darkened the skies of Israel completely. The original Hebrew word (erets: H0776) translated as "the earth" (Joel 2:10) can refer to only a local area of land (e.g. Genesis 2:11,13), like how, for example, our word "earthquake" today can refer to only a local event. Joel 2:11 shows that the literal locust swarm wasn't (as is sometimes claimed) from Satan, fallen angels, or evil nephilim, but was considered by God to be his own "army", as it were (Joel 2:25). Joel 2:20 can mean that God's literal locust "army" (Joel 2:25) came from the north into the land of Israel, and that the swarm was eventually sent off by God into the barren desert, where the locusts died of starvation and their millions of dead bodies rotted in the sun and sent up a great stench. Joel 2:25 shows that it was literal locusts and other plant-destroying insects which God considered to be "my great army which I sent among you".

Joel 2:28-29 shows that the locusts devoured ancient Israel's crops sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD. For Joel 2:28-29 began to happen sometime "afterward", sometime after the locust invasion of Joel 2:1-27. And Joel 2:28-29 began to happen at the Acts 2 day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-18).

keras said in post 234:

How does Isaiah 2:20 fit with the Return? Impossible, as the Great Trib just happened.

Note that people will still have idols during the tribulation (Revelation 9:20).

keras said in post 234:

No need for preaching to the survivor's of the nations after the Return . . .

Actually, those unbelievers who will survive Jesus' 2nd coming will still need to be taught the Biblical truth about Jesus and the gospel, just as their children born after his 2nd coming will need to be preached to.

keras said in post 234:

The heavens and the earth will NOT burn at Jesus' Return . . .

That's right, not until the great white throne judgment, right before the new earth (2 Peter 3:12-13, Revelation 20:11 to 21:1).

keras said in post 234:

Psalms 50:1-3

Psalms 50:3 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), just as Psalms 50:4-5 refers to what will happen at his 2nd coming (Mark 13:27).

keras · Apr 27, 2016

Bible2+ said:
This can include the meaning that ancient Edom was uninhabited for awhile after its defeat (cf. Malachi 1:3). I.e., Jeremiah 49:18 doesn't require that the area would never become inhabited again. For even Sodom will become inhabited again during the millennium (Ezekiel 16:53-56).

Jeremiah 49:17-18 is paralleled by Isaiah 34:9-15. Doesn't look like any people will live in that area after the Day of the Lord wrath by fire from the sun. As described in Isaiah 34:1-4. note the parallels to the Sixth Seal event.

Bible2+ said:
After the return of the Jews from the Babylonian Captivity in 538 BC, some of them could have occupied the area of Edom, just as some of them lived there after Judah's destruction in 586 BC (Jeremiah 40:11). And Obadiah 1:21 could have a more complete fulfillment during the millennium.

The Book of Obadiah will be fulfilled by the Lord's Day of wrath onto the nations, Obadiah 1:15, when the Lord will make the weapons of the attackers recoil upon their own heads. Psalm 7:12-16, Jeremiah 49:35-37
THEN: My people will possess all the holy Land....Obadiah 1:19-21

Bible2+ said:
This refers to the millennium.

Isaiah 35:1-10 refers to the entering and settling of the Lord's righteous people into all of the holy Land, soon after the Day of wrath and after they are judged as per Ezekiel 20:34-38
The gathering at the Return is described differently. Matthew 24:31

Bible2+ said:
Actually, they could have been, at least for a short time, after the Babylonians destroyed Judah in 586 BC.

Your opinion only and refuted when Jeremiah 9:11 is read properly and in context.

Bible2+ said:
note that Jeremiah 9:21 can refer to 586 BC, while Joel 2:9 could refer to centuries later

These quotes are two of the 100+ prophesies that describe the forthcoming Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath against the nations, by the means of a CME sunstrike. There is no other real explanation for what will happen. Obviously Joel isn't talking about real locusts and it is like a human army, just the best way Joel had to describe this terrible event.

Bible2+ said:
Note that people will still have idols during the tribulation

Maybe, but Isaiah 2:6-22 cannot refer to the Great Tribulation 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, as verses 6-9 are how it is now and 7-21 what the Lord is about to do about the situation.
Isaiah 2:1-5 is Millennial.

Bible2+ said:
Actually, those unbelievers who will survive Jesus' 2nd coming will still need to be taught the Biblical truth about Jesus and the gospel, just as their children born after his 2nd coming will need to be preached to

Hebrews 8:10-11....I shall set My Laws into their hearts........
Jeremiah 31:34 No longer will My people teach one another, they will all know the Lord.
This will happen BEFORE the Return; read and understand Isaiah 51:4-11 and many other prophesies about the gathering of the Lord's people into the holy Land, where they will be His witnesses and a light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10

Bible2+ said:
That's right, not until the great white throne judgment, right before the new earth (2 Peter 3:12-13, Revelation 20:11 to 21:1).

Rev 20:11 makes no mention of the earth destroyed by fire, neither does any other prophecy of what happens after the Millennium. The only event where the earth is enveloped in fire and all the inhabitants are judged/punished, is the Lord's Day of wrath; which is years before the Return and 1000+ years before the GWT judgement.

Bible2+ said:
Psalms 50:3 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), just as Psalms 50:4-5 refers to what will happen at his 2nd coming (Mark 13:27).

Your theory only and when these scriptures are read without the bias of it must be at the Return, then it can be seen they simply do not fit at that event.
Unless God does make the way for all the Israelites to go and live in all of the holy Land, then He will have reneged on His promises to the Patriarchs. We know from the NT, that Israelites can now be people of every race, nation and language, all true righteous believers. But the majority who go to live in the holy Land, will be descendants of Jacob, now as many as the sands of the sea, Christian believers. It is them who send out 144,000 missionaries to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus and it is them who call out: Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord, at Jesus' Return.

Bible2+ · Apr 28, 2016

keras said in post 236:

Jeremiah 49:17-18 is paralleled by Isaiah 34:9-15.

Note that they can refer to different events: the former can include a 6th century BC destruction of literal Edom, while the latter refers to a future, destruction of a figurative, worldwide Idumea (Isaiah 34:2,5) sometime after the millennium.

keras said in post 236:

Doesn't look like any people will live in that area after the Day of the Lord wrath by fire from the sun.

Note that neither passage refers to fire from the sun, and the former passage makes no reference to fire.

keras said in post 236:

As described in Isaiah 34:1-4. note the parallels to the Sixth Seal event.

Note that neither Isaiah 34:1-4 nor the Sixth Seal event (Revelation 6:12-17) makes any reference to fire from the sun. Also, the 6th seal event will be during the 1st stage of the tribulation, while Isaiah 34 won't be fulfilled until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), when the present surface of the earth and its atmosphere (the 1st heaven) will pass away (Revelation 20:11). And all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world will be judged and cast into the eternal lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15,10, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 14:10-11).

keras said in post 236:

The Book of Obadiah will be fulfilled by the Lord's Day of wrath onto the nations, Obadiah 1:15 . . .

Note that Obadiah 1:15 can include reference to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10.

keras said in post 236:

. . . when the Lord will make the weapons of the attackers recoil upon their own heads. Psalm 7:12-16 . . .

Note that the principle of Psalms 7:12-16 can apply to any time, just as, for example, the similar principle of Matthew 26:52b can apply to any time.

keras said in post 236:

Jeremiah 49:35-37

Note that this could be fulfilled at Jesus' 2nd coming. For Jeremiah 49:38 can refer to what the returned Jesus will do at one point during the millennium.

keras said in post 236:

Isaiah 35:1-10 refers to the entering and settling of the Lord's righteous people into all of the holy Land, soon after the Day of wrath . . .

That's right, but the day of wrath being the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:15).

keras said in post 236:

. . . and after they are judged as per Ezekiel 20:34-38

Ezekiel 20:34-38 will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming, and can refer to Jesus judging the surviving, genetic Israelites who didn't get saved before the 2nd coming.

keras said in post 236:

The gathering at the Return is described differently. Matthew 24:31

Matthew 24:31 refers to those who got saved before the 2nd coming.

keras said in post 236:

These quotes are two of the 100+ prophesies that describe the forthcoming Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath against the nations, by the means of a CME sunstrike.

Note that nothing in the Bible requires a CME sunstrike, except possibly the 4th vial (Revelation 16:8), which won't occur until the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

keras said in post 236:

Isaiah 2:6-22 cannot refer to the Great Tribulation 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, as verses 6-9 are how it is now and 7-21 what the Lord is about to do about the situation.

Note that Isaiah 2:6-9,22 can apply to any time, including the future tribulation, while Isaiah 2:10-21 refers to the 2nd coming.

keras said in post 236:

Isaiah 2:1-5 is Millennial.

That's right.

keras said in post 236:

Hebrews 8:10-11....I shall set My Laws into their hearts........
Jeremiah 31:34 No longer will My people teach one another, they will all know the Lord.
This will happen BEFORE the Return . . .

That's right, with regard to those who have heard the gospel and become believers. For the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is already fulfilled, even though the prior, millennial prophecy of Jeremiah 31:1-14,16-25 (Jeremiah 31:15 was fulfilled in the 1st century AD: Matthew 2:17-18) and the other millennial prophecies haven't yet been fulfilled. For the making of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31,33) was fulfilled at Jesus' crucifixion (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17), just as its being made with the houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31,33) has been fulfilled (Acts 2:5,36-41, Romans 11:1,17,24). And the New Covenant being not according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32) has been fulfilled (Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17). And the New Covenant law of Jesus being written on the hearts of believers (Jeremiah 31:33) has been fulfilled (Romans 6:17, Ephesians 6:6, Galatians 6:2). And "they shall teach no more every man his neighbour" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:27). And "they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:13). And "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:12).

keras said in post 236:

. . . read and understand Isaiah 51:4-11 and many other prophesies about the gathering of the Lord's people into the holy Land, where they will be His witnesses and a light to the nations

Isaiah 51:11 refers to the millennium.

keras said in post 236:

Isaiah 42:6

Already fulfilled (Acts 13:47, Acts 26:23).

For Isaiah 42:6, like Isaiah 49:6, foretold that Jesus' gospel of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), would save both Jewish and Gentile believers (Acts 26:22-23, Luke 24:46-47). The New Covenant includes Gentile believers by grafting them into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16).

Isaiah 49:6b started to be fulfilled at Jesus' 1st coming (Luke 2:32, Acts 26:23) and his sending forth his apostles to the Gentiles (Acts 13:47, Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 26:17-18, Acts 22:21).

keras said in post 236:

Isaiah 43:10

Isaiah 43:10b shows that there will be no future Gods, just as there were no past Gods: YHWH has always been, is now, and forever will be the only God (Deuteronomy 4:35, Isaiah 45:5-6, Psalms 90:2b).

keras said in post 236:

Rev 20:11 makes no mention of the earth destroyed by fire . . .

Note that it doesn't have to, because 2 Peter 3:12-13 does.

keras said in post 236:

Unless God does make the way for all the Israelites to go and live in all of the holy Land, then He will have reneged on His promises to the Patriarchs.

Note that the promise to the Patriarchs was fulfilled as far back as the 15th century BC (Joshua 21:43-45).

With regard to the never-fulfilled land promise of Amos 9:14-15, some people believe that Amos 9:15 applies to the reestablishment of Israel in 1948 AD. But Amos 9:15 could refer to what will happen only at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 9:7, Amos 9:11). For Amos 9:14-15 was spoken before the taking of the northern kingdom of Israel into captivity (Amos 8:14, Amos 5:27) by the Assyrians in 722 BC. And so Amos 9:14-15 was spoken before the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into captivity by the Babylonians in 586 BC. But Amos 9:14-15 didn't apply to the post-Babylonian-Captivity restoration of the Jews to their land in 538 BC, for that restoration was subsequently destroyed by a Roman-empire army in 70 AD. So Amos 9:14-15 doesn't necessarily apply to the subsequent restoration of the Jews to their land in 1948 AD either. This restoration could be destroyed by the Baathists in a future war (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. Jesus will restore the Davidic kingdom of Israel (Luke 1:32b-33, Isaiah 9:7, Amos 9:11) at his 2nd coming (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Similarly, the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the literal, fruitless fig tree (Matthew 21:19) foreshadowed his curse on the part of Old Covenant Israel which rejected him (Matthew 21:43), for a fig tree can represent Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9). But the Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at his 1st coming, insofar as it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

But Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

keras said in post 236:

We know from the NT, that Israelites can now be people of every race, nation and language, all true righteous believers.

That's right, with regard to spiritual Israelites, as opposed to genetic Israelites (e.g. Romans 9:3-5).

For just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

keras said in post 236:

But the majority who go to live in the holy Land, will be descendants of Jacob, now as many as the sands of the sea . . .

Regarding "the sands of the sea", note that what God promised was a figurative "I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore" (Genesis 22:17), which was already fulfilled by only about 6 million Israelites at the time of the Exodus (Deuteronomy 1:10). And so Romans 9:27 and Isaiah 10:22 can refer to only to a remnant being saved out of a few million people.

keras said in post 236:

But the majority who go to live in the holy Land, will be descendants of Jacob, now as many as the sands of the sea, Christian believers. It is them who send out 144,000 missionaries to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus and it is them who call out: Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord, at Jesus' Return.

That's right that the 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4). And so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

But note that the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

keras · Apr 28, 2016

Before I reply to #237, we need to address the issue in contention here. Bible 2+ and others say that what is prophesied has mostly been fulfilled, the theory of preterism.
This theory begs two main questions:
1/ Why did God fill our Bibles with history?
2/ What will happen in our future?
My belief is that most prophecy remains to be fulfilled. There are some having had a partial fulfilment, that were examples of the final event, but await the last days events for their literal and complete fulfilment.
Preterists answers are: Yes, the prophesies are a history lesson and we have no clue about the future.

Bible2+ said:
Note that this could include reference to a destruction of ancient Edom, perhaps one that occurred sometime subsequent to the destruction of ancient Judah (and many other countries) by the Babylonians in 586 BC, which happened in the time of the prophet Jeremiah (cf. Jeremiah 27:1-10).

But Jeremiah 49:7-22 says it will be the Lord who brings retribution on Edom/Esau on His Day of reckoning. v.8b

Bible2+ said:
Note that neither passage refers to fire from the sun, and the former passage makes no reference to fire.

As you say in your reply to where I say there is no fire at the GWT Judgment; Revelation 20:11, it doesn't have to as there are 70 other prophesies that do specifically mention fire on the Lord's Day of wrath.

Bible2+ said:
Note that neither Isaiah 34:1-4 nor the Sixth Seal event (Revelation 6:12-17) makes any reference to fire from the sun.

They both say the sky will roll up like a scroll, which is an effect of a massive CME.

Bible2+ said:
Also, the 6th seal event will be during the 1st stage of the tribulation, while Isaiah 34 won't be fulfilled until the great white throne judgment

Right, the 6th Seal comes next, but it isn't part of the GT. The time gap of the 7th Seal is between them.
Read Isaiah 34 again. In no way does it fit the GWT judgement. Verse 8 specifically says it all refers the Lord's Day of vengeance.

Bible2+ said:
Note that Obadiah 1:15 can include reference to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10.

But it doesn't, because it says the House of Esau will have no survivors. Jeremiah 46:2 is ancient history, but Jeremiah 46:10 awaits fulfilment on the Lord's still to happen, Day of vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 63:1-6

Bible2+ said:
Note that the principle of Psalms 7:12-16 can apply to any time,

Maybe it did, but today we see Iran and their allies preparing their instruments of death, making ready their flaming arrows.... and the Lord will send fire upon them, making their own weapons explode, killing them all. Amos 1:1-14, Ezekiel 7:14, Jeremiah 49:35-37; which will be the Sixth Seal disaster, years before the Second Coming of Jesus.

Bible2+ said:
That's right, but the day of wrath being the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:15).

As I say, your placement of the Lord's Day of wrath does not fit with what happens at the Return. Jesus does not devastate the world then. Does Amos 5:18-20 apply to the glorious Return? I don't think so!

Bible2+ said:
Ezekiel 20:34-38 will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming, and can refer to Jesus judging the surviving, genetic Israelites who didn't get saved before the 2nd coming.

I don't see anywhere that Jesus has to judge those people who survive the GT and enter the Millennium. They are referred to in Revelation 5:9-10, as God's priests.
Ezekiel 20:34-38 is the great gathering of all the descendants of Jacob in the wilderness outside the holy Land and they are judged in a similar way to the ancient Israelites, God was not seen then and He won't be at the next Exodus into all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:39-44 goes on to describe how the Lord will accept them for the honor of His Name, as they build a new Temple and again make gifts and offerings to God.

Bible2+ said:
Matthew 24:31 refers to those who got saved before the 2nd coming.

AND to those righteous people kept in safety during the GT. Revelation 12:6

Bible2+ said:
Note that nothing in the Bible requires a CME sunstrike, except possibly the 4th vial (Revelation 16:8), which won't occur until the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

You are right about the 4th Bowl, it will be another CME.
Isaiah 30:26 and Malachi 4:1 and about 100 other prophesies describing the Day of the Lord's wrath, can only be explained by a Massive explosion of the sun. This will literally fulfil all the disasters so vividly described.

Bible2+ said:
Note that Isaiah 2:6-9,22 can apply to any time, including the future tribulation, while Isaiah 2:10-21 refers to the 2nd coming.

Again; Isaiah 2:19 & 21 are paralleled in the Sixth Seal. There is no hint of people hiding or throwing away their gold at the Return or during the GT.

Bible2+ said:
That's right, with regard to those who have heard the gospel and become believers. For the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is already fulfilled

Explain then, why Christians even pastors fall into temptation?
Obviously, from all the context of Jeremiah 31:1-40, this all awaits fulfilment.

Bible2+ said:
Isaiah 51:11 refers to the millennium.

Isaiah 51:1-23 is a reiteration of how the Lord will destroy the enemies of His people, those who know what is right, by the means of the heavens [the atmosphere] being dispersed like smoke, the earth becoming tattered like an old garment and the inhabitants will die like flies. Another description of the Sixth Seal sunstrike disaster.

Bible2+ said:
Already fulfilled (Acts 13:47, Acts 26:23).

Isaiah 42:6.... we have done our best to fulfil the task of bringing the "light" to the unsaved. I have done my part.
However there remains millions, if not billions who are still in darkness. It will be the 144,000, selected from all the people who go to live in the holy Land, Revelation 7:1-10, that will proclaim the Gospel to them all.

Bible2+ said:
Note that it doesn't have to, because 2 Peter 3:12-13 does.

Only after 2 Peter 3:13 does he refer to the NHNE. Before that Peter is describing the Lord's Day of wrath, again mentioning how the sky will disappear and all the earth will be brought into judgement by fire. A worldwide disaster of a similar magnitude to Noah's Flood.

Bible2+ said:
Note that the promise to the Patriarchs was fulfilled as far back as the 15th century BC (Joshua 21:43-45).

Wrong, the ancient Israelites never took all the promised Land and they allowed most Canaanites to remain. Judges 1:19, 21, 27, 29-34. At the next Exodus of all the Lord's people, the Lord Himself will totally clear and cleanse the Land. Deuteronomy 32:43, Jeremiah 12:14
More rubbish about the Baathists. They are history, it is the Islamic militants threatening Israel today.

Bible2+ said:
Regarding "the sands of the sea", note that what God promised was a figurative "I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore" (Genesis 22:17), which was already fulfilled by only about 6 million Israelites at the time of the Exodus (Deuteronomy 1:10). And so Romans 9:27 and Isaiah 10:22 can refer to only to a remnant being saved out of a few million people.

Yes 'sands of the sea' is allegorical. But it refers to all of Israel, that includes the Northern tribes, who as Josephus says: 'are scattered among the nations and of uncountable numbers'. So the remnant of all Israel, now every true Christian, many millions, will live in the holy Land, as Isaiah 49:18-21 so beautifully prophesies.

Bible2+ said:
That's right that the 144,000 will all be Christians

We are in agreement on how the Lord will assign people to the tribe suited to their individual characteristics. .

Bible2+ · Apr 29, 2016

keras said in post 238:

Why did God fill our Bibles with history?

So we can know what he has done (e.g. Genesis to Esther). Also, a lot of Bible prophecy wasn't history at the time that it was given, even though it became history sometime after it was given (e.g. Genesis 15:13).

keras said in post 238:

What will happen in our future?

What will happen next is the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which the church will have to go through (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), and which will be immediately followed by Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's physical resurrection, its rapture (gathering together to Jesus), judgment by Jesus, and marriage to Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:27, Psalms 50:4-5, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Jesus and the church will then reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Sometime after that will occur the physical resurrection and the judgment of unsaved people of all times (Revelation 20:11-15). Then will occur the time of the literal city of New Jerusalem on a new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

--

Regarding the future tribulation, from Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and some other verses elsewhere we can derive the following summary of its main events:

It will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8).

Then a huge volcanic eruption will occur (Revelation 6:12-14).

Then an island volcano will erupt and collapse into the sea (Revelation 8:8-9).

Then a comet will strike the earth in a region containing 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10-11).

Then a cavern deep underground will open up, and strange locust-like beings will swarm up from it and torment mankind with horribly painful stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-11).

Then 200 million strange horse-like beings will come upon the earth and kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19).

Sometime before this, a 3rd Jewish temple will have been built in Jerusalem (Revelation 11:1).

Then various things will happen during a literal 3.5-year period:

Jerusalem will be occupied by enemy forces (Revelation 11:2b, Luke 21:24), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) will be put in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

2 witnesses of God will prophesy in Jerusalem and bring amazing miraculous plagues on the world (Revelation 11:3-12).

Satan (the dragon) will give power to an individual man (one aspect of Revelation's "beast"), commonly called the Antichrist, to take hegemony over the entire earth and to be worshipped by it along with Satan, and to kill Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:4-10). At least one time, the Antichrist will also sit in the Jewish temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

The Antichrist will have a False Prophet who will perform amazing miracles by which the people of the world will be deceived into receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) on their right hand or forehead, and into worshipping a speaking, and seemingly living, image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:11-18, Revelation 19:20).

Right after the literal 3.5-year period:

A horrible sore will spring up on all those who had received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped the image (Revelation 16:2).

Then the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3).

Then all natural, surface fresh-water sources will be turned into blood (Revelation 16:4-6).

Then a solar flare will strike the earth (Revelation 16:8).

Then, for a time, no light will reach the surface of the earth (Revelation 16:10).

Then the Euphrates will dry up, and the armies of the earth will gather at Armageddon (a place in northern Israel) in an attempt to fight YHWH God (Revelation 16:12-16).

Then the cities of the nations will be destroyed by fire, and earthquake, and 100-pound hailstones (Revelation 16:18-21, Revelation 17:16).

Then Jesus will return and physically resurrect the church, rapture (gather together) the church, judge the church, and marry the church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:27, Psalms 50:4-5, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), before he defeats the world's armies gathered (by that time at Jerusalem) against YHWH God (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14).

keras said in post 238:

But Jeremiah 49:7-22 says it will be the Lord who brings retribution on Edom/Esau on His Day of reckoning. v.8b

Note that the Lord can bring his reckoning through others (e.g. Isaiah 10:5-6).

keras said in post 238:

. . .there are 70 other prophesies that do specifically mention fire on the Lord's Day of wrath.

There will be fire 3 times during the future day of the Lord, at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), then later at the defeat of Gog/Magog (Revelation 20:9), and then right before the new earth (2 Peter 3:7-8).

keras said in post 238:

They both say the sky will roll up like a scroll, which is an effect of a massive CME.

Note that the sky rolling up like a scroll in both Isaiah 34:4 and Revelation 6:14 doesn't require that they are the same event, just as, for example, the similarity between Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12-13 doesn't (as is often claimed) require that they are the same event. That is, Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 are 2 different sets of events. For Revelation 6:12-13 will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, whereas Matthew 24:29-31 (like Revelation 19:7-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29). Also, when Revelation 6:12-13 occurs, the moon's light will appear blood-red, whereas when Matthew 24:29 occurs, the moon's light won't be seen at all. There will also be one point between the time of Revelation 6:12-13 and the time of Matthew 24:29 when the moon's light temporarily won't be seen at all, during 1/3 of the night (Revelation 8:12).

Also, the sun temporarily appearing to be darkened in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the 1st time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For it will happen again during the 4th trumpet (part of the tribulation's 2nd stage), for 1/3 of the day (Revelation 8:12), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2), and then again during the 5th vial (Revelation 16:10), part of the tribulation's 4th and final stage, the 3rd stage being the literal 3.5-year time period of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14). Also, what will appear like "stars" falling from the sky in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the 1st time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For subsequently, during the 3rd trumpet, what will appear like a star will fall from the sky (Revelation 8:10-11), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:1). And then again, mid-tribulation, what will appear like stars will descend from the sky (Revelation 12:4).

keras said in post 238:

They both say the sky will roll up like a scroll, which is an effect of a massive CME.

Note that nothing in Isaiah 34:4 or Revelation 6:14 requires a CME.

keras said in post 238:

. . . the 6th Seal comes next . . .

Actually, the 6th seal isn't next. because the 2nd through 5th seals have to happen first.

keras said in post 238:

Read Isaiah 34 again. In no way does it fit the GWT judgement. Verse 8 specifically says it all refers the Lord's Day of vengeance.

The GWT judgment will be the final stage of the future day of the Lord, which will begin at the 2nd coming.

keras said in post 238:

. . . it says the House of Esau will have no survivors.

Obadiah 1:18 could have a complete fulfillment during the millennium.

keras said in post 238:

Jeremiah 46:2 is ancient history, but Jeremiah 46:10 awaits fulfilment . . .

Actually, Jeremiah 46:10 is referring to the same thing as Jeremiah 46:2.

keras said in post 238:

Amos 1:1-14

Amos 1 refers to God's judgment against various ancient nations by the hands of the Assyrians.

Similarly, Amos 5:18-20 refers to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. In its context, Amos 5:18-20 is addressing the ancient northern kingdom of Israel (Amos 5:1,4-6,21-27) before God brought punishment and defeat to it (Amos 2:6,14-16, Amos 3:1 to 5:27) in 722 BC at the hands of the ancient Assyrians, who took Israel into captivity into Assyria, "beyond Damascus" (Amos 5:27).

keras said in post 238:

Ezekiel 7:14

This refers to God's wrath against Israel's army (i.e. it will be defeated), just as the chapter is about the destruction of the land of Israel (Ezekiel 7:2) by a foreign enemy (e.g. Ezekiel 7:24,21,15). This could refer to the destruction of Jerusalem and Judah by the Babylonians in 586 BC, just as, for example, the sins going on in Jerusalem in the time of Ezekiel were called the sins of Israel (e.g. Ezekiel 8:6-18).

keras said in post 238:

They are referred to in Revelation 5:9-10, as God's priests.

Revelation 5:10a refers to those who are in the church (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:6). And Revelation 5:10b refers to the future reign of the physically resurrected church on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29), which will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

keras said in post 238:

Ezekiel 20:39-44

Ezekiel 20:40-44 can refer to the millennium.

keras said in post 238:

Revelation 12:6

The woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, and be imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

keras said in post 238:

There is no hint of people hiding or throwing away their gold at the Return . . .

Note that there is in Isaiah 2:10-21.

keras said in post 238:

Explain then, why Christians even pastors fall into temptation?

Because the New Covenant doesn't take away free will.

keras said in post 238:

Obviously, from all the context of Jeremiah 31:1-40, this all awaits fulfilment.

Note that nothing in Jeremiah 31:1-40 requires that the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34 isn't fulfilled (e.g. Matthew 26:28), just as, for example, nothing in Jeremiah 31:1-40 requires that Jeremiah 31:15 isn't fulfilled (Matthew 2:17-18).

keras said in post 238:

Wrong . . .

Note that Joshua 21:43-45 can't be wrong when it says that the promises to the fathers were fulfilled in the 15th century BC.

keras said in post 238:

Deuteronomy 32:43

This can refer to Jesus' 2nd coming. For compare Deuteronomy 32:41-42 with Revelation 19:15,21. And compare Deuteronomy 32:43 with Zechariah 14:2-21.

keras said in post 238:

More rubbish about the Baathists. They are history . . .

Note that Baathism isn't history in the minds of most of the Sunni Arabs of Iraq, or in the minds of millions of the people of Syria (which is still Baathist). And the rest of the Arabs could easily be swayed to join the Baathists if the Baathists completely defeat and occupy Israel, and also distribute the Arab Gulf states' oil wealth to the Arab masses. For Baathism's true raison d'etre is to raise up all the Arab people themselves into a mighty and prosperous Arab Empire, free from all Western (not to mention Shiite Iranian/Persian) tyranny.

keras said in post 238:

. . . it is the Islamic militants threatening Israel today.

Actually, they have never posed any mortal threat to Israel's existence, like the Baathists will, once they take back Iraq.

Also, note that the current military brains of the Islamic State (ISIS) are former Iraqi Baathist generals who can't stand that the Iraqi government has come completely under the thumb of Iran. They see (Sunni Arab) Islamic State as the only current viable bulwark against the Iranians and the Shiite Arabs taking control of all of Iraq and Syria. These generals could "defect" from serving Islamic State to serving a non-sectarian Iraqi Army drawn mainly (not exclusively) from Sunni Arab and Kurdish militias in western and northern Iraq, which with secret Western assistance could completely overthrow the current Iraqi government in Baghdad, which is very weak and corrupt. Then a Baathist Iraq could be built up by the U.S. to completely defeat ISIS, and then be prepared to defeat Iran. But instead of attacking Iran, Baathist Iraq and Baathist Syria (built up by Russia to retain Russia's major military bases in Syria) could suddenly turn and defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt instead.

keras said in post 238:

Isaiah 49:18-21

This can refer to the millennium.

keras said in post 238:

We are in agreement on how the Lord will assign people to the tribe suited to their individual characteristics. .

Indeed, and such assigning is very cool.

keras · Apr 29, 2016

Well, Bible2+, you must be like me, a retired person with time on your hands!
We do agree on some points, but your determination to place unfulfilled prophecy into history is wrong and you fail to see that the next prophesied event will be the one that 'comes as a thief', unexpected to most everyone, that will destroy the Lord's enemies and set the scene for all the last days up to the glorious Return.

Bible2+ said:
So we can know what he has done (e.g. Genesis to Esther). Also, a lot of Bible prophecy wasn't history at the time that it was given, even though it became history sometime after it was given (e.g. Genesis 15:13).

But you make out specific prophesies describing things, as could have happened in the past, without any proof.

Bible2+ said:
What will happen next is the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which the church will have to go through (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), and which will be immediately followed by Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's physical resurrection, its rapture (gathering together to Jesus), judgment by Jesus, and marriage to Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:27, Psalms 50:4-5, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Jesus and the church will then reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Sometime after that will occur the physical resurrection and the judgment of unsaved people of all times (Revelation 20:11-15). Then will occur the time of the literal city of New Jerusalem on a new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

I agree with most of this.
I do not place Rev.6 as part of the GT. The 7 Seals happen before the last 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation.
The G/M attack of Ezekiel 38-39 must happen before the Return. I suggest you read those chapters carefully, they do not fit in the Millennium. They come from the North. The ref to G/M in Revelation 20:8, is just to a type of huge army, who come from all parts of the world.

Bible2+ said:
Regarding the future tribulation, from Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and some other verses elsewhere we can derive the following summary of its main events:

Excepting for the 7 Seals, that will have already happened, this summary is roughly correct.

Bible2+ said:
Jerusalem will be occupied by enemy forces

Right, this will be the fulfilment of Zechariah 14:1-2.

Bible2+ said:
Note that the Lord can bring his reckoning through others

Yes, but all of Jeremiah 49:1-39 describes how the Lord will bring terror to Amman, Jordan.
How He will bring devastation to Edom, Arabia on His Day of retribution and no one will live there again.
How He will kindle a fire in Damascus and kill all their warriors on that Day.
Jeremiah 49:28-33, tells how Babylon did subdue Arabia in ancient times, but verses 32b-33 reiterate the Lord's retribution on them and the depopulation of all their land.
How the Lord will break the bow of Elam, Iran. How He will vent His fierce anger upon them in disaster and make an end of them.

Bible2+ said:
There will be fire 3 times during the future day of the Lord, at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), then later at the defeat of Gog/Magog (Revelation 20:9), and then right before the new earth (2 Peter 3:7-8).

Your belief of the Day of the Lord's wrath being the Millennium, is where we disagree. It is just a one Day event: Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 10:17, Isaiah 29:5-6, Zechariah 3:9b, Revelation 18:8 Therefore shall disasters come in one Day....and Babylon, [the ungodly nations] shall be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord which Judges them.
Revelation 17 and 18 are a flashback to fill in details of the Sixth Seal, the worldwide devastation by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, caused by the huge mass of a CME striking the earth, Revelation 18:21. One of the result of this disaster, will be the formation of a ten region One World Govt. Revelation 17:11-17

As I do have a life apart from discussing Bible prophecy, I will leave it at that.
These proofs are sufficient for now, of your errors.

Futurist Only Damascus and animals

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

Matthew 4:4

Matthew 4:4

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Matthew 4:4

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Matthew 4:4

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Matthew 4:4

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Matthew 4:4

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Matthew 4:4

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Matthew 4:4

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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