If you followed OSAS...

HannahElizaW said:

If you (whether you really do or not) followed/accepted/etc. the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved' and someone of the same belief came to you struggling with a lot of sin in their life and contemplating/doubting over their salvation...

what would you tell them?

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I would start with "Who is the author of salvation?"

Then I would ask "does your walk with Christ glorify Him?"

It all goes back to Jesus Christ's encounter with sinners and the sick. Did they come to Him so he could endorse or sanctify their sin or sickness. No.

He healed those who believed He had the power to forgive sins and heal the afflicted.

St_Worm2 said:

Well, there is this to consider........

"To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" ~Rom 4:5

"Jesus said to them, 'It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.'” ~Mk 2:17
​

Plus, how can a non-believer or "natural man" possibly hope to make that choice apart from Christ because:

"A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." ~1 Cor 2:14​

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Consider what?

Romans 4:5, Mark 2:17 and 1 Cor 2:14 doesn't refute the fact mentioned in John 14:23 that Christ and God will come to live with those who keeps His commandments nor do those verses even mention the holy spirit.

John 14:21-23
21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

I think you pulled the wrongs verses out of context bro.

St_Worm2 said:

John 10 doesn't speak of sheep that are lost or disobedient. The "lost" are the ones who are not sheep, not believers (John 10:26).

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John 10:16 (KJV) And other sheep I have , which are not of this fold: them also I must bring , and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

What does "I must" mean? If they're not lost, why must Christ lead them too? The other sheep is currently not with Christ. Need I say more?

St_Worm2 said:

BTW, the "other sheep" that Jesus speaks of in John 10:16 are Gentile believers (i.e. Acts 13:46-48). Jesus' ministry while He was among us was to Israel alone, not to the Nations. Jesus' sheep are both Jews AND Greeks. Neither group is any more "Christian" (or more Christ-like in their behavior) than the other group is.

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No, Jesus never ministered to gentiles. The other sheeps are believers but not yet disciples. Read John 17:20-26, Jesus prayed for His believers who are Jews. Read John 17:6-19, He prays for His disciples who are His sheep that knows Him, (John 10:27-29).

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+17:6-26&version=NKJV

John 10:29 ~ My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

John 17:9 ~ “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

Just as in John 10, Jesus categorizes His sheeps into two groups: His disciples (John 10:27-29): those who walk in the light and believers (John 10:16): those who believe He's the Son of God but are still walking in darkness.

St_Worm2 said:

These are some of the things that characterize ALL of Jesus' "sheep", both Jew and Gentile: 1) He knows them 2) they know Him 3) they hear and recognize His voice 4) they believe 5) they follow/obey Him 6) they have been given eternal life 7) they will never perish (John 10:14-16; John 10:26-28).

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Well........

The bible say otherwise. Without Christ guiding them, it reveals lost sheeps who's gone astray.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Matthew 18:12-14 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Luke 15:3-7 So he told them this parable: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

St_Worm2 said:

Well.....

"God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ~Jn 3:16

“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." ~Jn 3:18

"He who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." ~Jn 5:24

"These have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name." ~Jn 20:31

"We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law" ~Rom 3:28

"To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" ~Rom 4:5

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." ~Rom 10:9-10

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." ~Eph 2:8-9

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy..." ~Titus 3:5

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." ~1 Jn 5:13​

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Well what? Of those 10 verses, only two of them mentions eternal life, the rest are mostly about faith. If you're trying to sell me your calvinist view on faith alone, well........

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Titus 3:14
And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.

Titus 3:8
The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

James 2:14-20
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. ...

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.

James 2:20-24
Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Hebrews 13:21
Equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Titus 2:7
Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,

1 Timothy 6:18
They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

James 2:25-26
And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

James 1:22-27
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing. If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless. ...

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

1 Timothy 5:10
And having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work.

John 15:14
You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Psalm 90:17
Let the favor of the Lord our God be upon us, and establish the work of our hands upon us; yes, establish the work of our hands!

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

1 Timothy 2:10
But with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Acts 13:39
And by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

Proverbs 3:6
In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.

James 3:18
And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Colossians 1:10
So as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.

Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

John 3:21
But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Matthew 19:16-21
And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” ...

Nehemiah 13:14
Remember me, O my God, concerning this, and do not wipe out my good deeds that I have done for the house of my God and for his service.

James 3:17
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

1 Timothy 6:19
Thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 3:12-14
Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.

Philippians 1:11
Filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Galatians 6:15
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Romans 2:13
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Matthew 18:5
“Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,

Isaiah 64:6
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Genesis 2:15
The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

James 3:13
Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.

James 2:11
For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

James 1:25
But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

Hebrews 9:1-14
Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place, having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant. Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail. ...

Hebrews 6:9
Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.

Hebrews 6:2
And of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 4:3-10
For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said, “They shall not enter my rest.” Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” ...

1 Timothy 6:17
As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy.

1 Timothy 5:25
So also good works are conspicuous, and even those that are not cannot remain hidden.

1 Timothy 5:9
Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband,

1 Thessalonians 1:8
For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything.

Colossians 2:20-23
If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

Philippians 3:3-9
For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. ...

Philippians 2:13
For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Galatians 6:4
But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor.

Galatians 4:9-11
But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

1 Corinthians 3:6-9
I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.

John 15:8
By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.

John 15:2-8
Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. ...

John 10:32
Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”

Luke 19:12-27
He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. The first came before him, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.’ ...

Luke 18:9-14
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ ...

Luke 17:7-10
“Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and recline at table’? Will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink’? Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’”

Luke 13:6-9
And he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?’ And he answered him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put on manure. Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.’”

Matthew 25:34-40
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? ...

Matthew 25:14-29
“For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. ...

Matthew 21:28-31
“What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ And he answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind and went. And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you.

Matthew 10:42
And whoever gives one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.”

Matthew 6:1-4
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Matthew 5:20
For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 3:8
Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

That's plenty for now. I'll finish my reply to the rest of your post later today.

St_Worm2 said:

We cannot choose to be obedient to 'become' Christians, we choose to be obedient because we already are

That's plenty for now. I'll finish my reply to the rest of your post later today.

Yours and His,
David

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If you can show me anywhere in the bible that reveals the judgement of our salvation is based on faith alone (without works) whether if you stand before Christ or God, I'll show you otherwise.


Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Matthew 25:34-45
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did itto one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’



Yeah you keep believing John Calvin and his faith alone salvation. I'm doing what Jesus say. Well.... That's plenty for now. I'll finish my reply to the rest of your post later today.

Albion said:

Well, this ^ is your theory.

It is just as likely that what Jesus says in one place in Scripture is not meant to be a repeat of what he was teaching in another.

Personally, I consider your theory to be incorrect on its face because Jesus is clearly saying that these people cannot be taken from him, whereas you are trying to make it say "unless they do the following." The two ideas (cannot and might not) are not compatible but have mutually exclusive meanings.

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It's not theory, it's Christ's testimony. Read the whole chapter and not focus only on a single verse: John 10:28. He tells you He has other sheep He must also lead until both becomes one flock.

John 10:11-30
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” 19 Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?” 21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?” 22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

aiki said:

So, reconcile what you've written here with the following verses:

Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Who is Paul writing to here? Christians in the church at Galatia.

Romans 7:15-23
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

If, as you say, real Christians no longer sin, then what is Paul describing here? He must be describing himself in a saved condition because he writes of "delighting in the law of God according to the inward man," which an unbeliever, who is "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph.2:1), would not do.

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The apostle John is writing to believers in his first letter, not the spiritually unregenerate. It seems he is telling them that none of them can make the very claim to sinless perfection you say they must make if they are true Christians.

Selah.

Click to expand...

Easy answer. All three scriptures are describing newer minded believers who haven't matured in the spirit and are not yet born again. It's why they have trouble conquering sin. They are like those Paul described in 1 Cor 3:1-3.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

1 John 3:7-12
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.


You're not born again upon baptism that many christians think because your mind and heart are still carnal. Nothing's change.

The moment your heart and mind changes and agrees with everything the spirit tells you (and the voice of the holy spirit inside you is Christ) is when you're born again. You must be of the spirit. Now you need to realize when is a Christian born again. It's not the moment they accept Christ, they must abide in Him until they are transform by Christ outward bound.

John 3:6-7
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Matthew 18:3
and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

There's no exception, one cannot go to heaven unless they are transform. You have to practrise righteousness.

Rick Otto said:

It's conditional, but not toward salvation, rather towards the quality thereof as rewards in heaven are affected. Entrance to heaven is not a reward.

Click to expand...

Both are conditional. Your biggest reward is the salvation of your soul.....in case you haven't realized. All other rewards means nothing if you're in hell. Make sense?

Rick Otto said:

Sheep don't become goats.
Once Sheep Always Sheep

Click to expand...

Sure they do. It's called apostasy or falling away.

Hebrews 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

If you think your once saved always saved, abandon your faith and take the mark of the beast. I can assure you, you'll be in hell instead of heaven.

Rick Otto said:

Still wondering.

Click to expand...

This can be cure the moment you realized OSAS was created by John Calvin, not God. Are you following Jesus or John Calvin?

Perseverance of the saints (also referred to as eternal security as well as the corollary—though distinct—doctrine known as "Once Saved, Always Saved")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints

Matthew Twentyfour said:

This can be cure the moment you realized OSAS was created by John Calvin, not God. Are you following Jesus or John Calvin?

Perseverance of the saints (also referred to as eternal security as well as the corollary—though distinct—doctrine known as "Once Saved, Always Saved")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints

Click to expand...

Nah, but thanks for your concern. I only follow John Calvin where he follows Jesus, so I can agree with the canons of Dordt where his soteriology is articulated, but I part ways with him on sacramentology and ecclesiology, especially in the area of church discipline.

I understand your not wanting to answer the question.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

Both are conditional. Your biggest reward is the salvation of your soul.....in case you haven't realized. All other rewards means nothing if you're in hell. Make sense?



Sure they do. It's called apostasy or falling away.

Hebrews 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

If you think your once saved always saved, abandon your faith and take the mark of the beast. I can assure you, you'll be in hell instead of heaven.

Click to expand...

Thanks, but your assurance pales in comparison to scriptural truth.
Advising anyone to take the mark is problematic. Are you feeling OK?

aiki said:

So, reconcile what you've written here with the following verses:

Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Who is Paul writing to here? Christians in the church at Galatia.

Romans 7:15-23
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

If, as you say, real Christians no longer sin, then what is Paul describing here? He must be describing himself in a saved condition because he writes of "delighting in the law of God according to the inward man," which an unbeliever, who is "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph.2:1), would not do.

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The apostle John is writing to believers in his first letter, not the spiritually unregenerate. It seems he is telling them that none of them can make the very claim to sinless perfection you say they must make if they are true Christians.

Selah.

Click to expand...

Good point.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

Easy answer. All three scriptures are describing newer minded believers who haven't matured in the spirit and are not yet born again. It's why they have trouble conquering sin. They are like those Paul described in 1 Cor 3:1-3.

Click to expand...

Can you show me from the passages themselves where they say what you're saying here?

As for the passage from 1Corinthians 3 that you cited, how do you reconcile your idea about believers who aren't yet born again with the things Paul says about those to whom he is writing? He says of them in chapter 3:

vs. 1 - "[you are] babes in Christ..."
vs. 8 - "you are God's field, you are God's building..."
vs. 16 - "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"
vs. 23 - "and you are Christ's..."

It seems very clear to me that Paul thought of the Corinthians to whom he was writing, not as unsaved believers, but as genuinely born-again disciples of Christ, however carnal and spiritually immature they were.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

You're not born again upon baptism that many christians think because your mind and heart are still carnal. Nothing's change.

Click to expand...

Well, Paul doesn't appear to agree with you. And neither does the apostle John. (1 Jn. 1:8-10) In fact, John writes,

1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Is John writing to the unsaved in his first epistle? No. He is very clearly writing to people he thought were born-again ("my little children," "we have..." "our sins..."). And yet, he anticipates that they will sin and encourages them with the thought that they (and himself, also) have an Advocate in heaven who has paid the penalty for all their sin.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

The moment your heart and mind changes and agrees with everything the spirit tells you (and the voice of the holy spirit inside you is Christ) is when you're born again.

Click to expand...

This isn't what I read in Scripture. Instead, I read things like:

Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

1 John 5:10-13
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I see a lot about the connection between belief and salvation in these verses but not even the slightest implication of the things you've been asserting about total agreement with the Spirit being the real means of salvation. Can you show me a Bible verse that says plainly what you have said about total agreement with the Spirit being the avenue to salvation? None of the three verses you've offered do so.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

There's no exception, one cannot go to heaven unless they are transform. You have to practrise righteousness.

Click to expand...

Paul makes it clear that the Christian's transformation is both a process and a once-for-all event. When a person is born-again, they gain a new spiritual position in Christ, which transforms them fundamentally. (Eph. 2:1-10; 2Cor. 5:17; Ro. 6:1-18; Ga. 2:20) But a believer's position in Christ must be worked out over time into their condition, their daily experience. The once-for-all spiritual transformation of the believer at salvation gives rise to a life-long process of transformation of their daily living. Expecting the former to shape instantly and completely the latter is neither reasonable nor biblical.

Selah.

aiki said:

Can you show me from the passages themselves where they say what you're saying here?

As for the passage from 1Corinthians 3 that you cited, how do you reconcile your idea about believers who aren't yet born again with the things Paul says about those to whom he is writing? He says of them in chapter 3:

vs. 1 - "[you are] babes in Christ..."
vs. 8 - "you are God's field, you are God's building..."
vs. 16 - "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"
vs. 23 - "and you are Christ's..."

It seems very clear to me that Paul thought of the Corinthians to whom he was writing, not as unsaved believers, but as genuinely born-again disciples of Christ, however carnal and spiritually immature they were.



Well, Paul doesn't appear to agree with you. And neither does the apostle John. (1 Jn. 1:8-10) In fact, John writes,

1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Is John writing to the unsaved in his first epistle? No. He is very clearly writing to people he thought were born-again ("my little children," "we have..." "our sins..."). And yet, he anticipates that they will sin and encourages them with the thought that they (and himself, also) have an Advocate in heaven who has paid the penalty for all their sin.



This isn't what I read in Scripture. Instead, I read things like:

Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

1 John 5:10-13
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I see a lot about the connection between belief and salvation in these verses but not even the slightest implication of the things you've been asserting about total agreement with the Spirit being the real means of salvation. Can you show me a Bible verse that says plainly what you have said about total agreement with the Spirit being the avenue to salvation? None of the three verses you've offered do so.



Paul makes it clear that the Christian's transformation is both a process and a once-for-all event. When a person is born-again, they gain a new spiritual position in Christ, which transforms them fundamentally. (Eph. 2:1-10; 2Cor. 5:17; Ro. 6:1-18; Ga. 2:20) But a believer's position in Christ must be worked out over time into their condition, their daily experience. The once-for-all spiritual transformation of the believer at salvation gives rise to a life-long process of transformation of their daily living. Expecting the former to shape instantly and completely the latter is neither reasonable nor biblical.

Selah.

Click to expand...

Good post. It moved me to reflect on being born again, and I'm pretty sure, but wondering if the the feeling of total conviction and total commitment that it was for me, is universal. I was astounded and will never forget the moment it struck me.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

Easy answer. All three scriptures are describing newer minded believers who haven't matured in the spirit and are not yet born again. It's why they have trouble conquering sin. They are like those Paul described in 1 Cor 3:1-3.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

1 John 3:7-12
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.


You're not born again upon baptism that many christians think because your mind and heart are still carnal. Nothing's change.

The moment your heart and mind changes and agrees with everything the spirit tells you (and the voice of the holy spirit inside you is Christ) is when you're born again. You must be of the spirit. Now you need to realize when is a Christian born again. It's not the moment they accept Christ, they must abide in Him until they are transform by Christ outward bound.

John 3:6-7
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Matthew 18:3
and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

There's no exception, one cannot go to heaven unless they are transform. You have to practrise righteousness.

Click to expand...

Sir, do you remember being born again?
No judgement, just curious.

OSAS is not something I believe in. I used to for awhile but then I realized if I decided (For example) to become a satanist, God would not be like "Well, thats ok son, you still got to heaven!". Because that would mean once saved I can go on a mass murder spree, steal from people, maybe throw in assault, rape....etc and still go to heaven! See how silly that sounds. This is assuming of course you live that bad lifestyle forever and essentially don't care about God anymore.

BTW I love those who say once saved, because of God you will never sin again. There has only been one man whos been sinfree. Jesus. So unless you Jesus, you are not sin free. You can be saved and you STILL will have times where you mess up and sin.

Rick Otto said:

I understand your not wanting to answer the question.

Click to expand...

Your question wasn't specific. Either I answer your question incorrectly or not answer it and save myself the embarrassment.

Rick Otto said:

Thanks, but your assurance pales in comparison to scriptural truth.
Advising anyone to take the mark is problematic. Are you feeling OK?

Click to expand...

The scriptural truth is this. There WILL be a time in the future when "some" christians will stand before the antichrist and ask themselves this question: "do I let them cut my head off to avoid going to hell or do I take the mark of the beast and save my neck?" Me personally, I'm not gonna be here as my faith is being tested daily, (James 1:3-4, Romans 5:3-4, Romans 15:4, 1 Peter 2:20). But your faith will be tested in the future, (Revelation 13:10).

Revelation 20:4 ~ And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 13:7 ~ It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Daniel 7:25 ~ He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

Than there's the OSAS crowd, and they'll probably be thinking "I'm saved, I can take the mark and still go to heaven, because nothing I do can refute eternal security!"

Based on the above scriptures, it's a legitimate question.

Albion said:

Because there is plenty in Scripture to the effect that God has predetermined at least some things to happen and, specifically, that he has chosen certain people, referred to as his "Elect." Jesus said that those could not be taken from him.

One word of caution...There is much in Scripture that tells of what God wants everyone to do because it's right in itself, and of the consequences of sin and the future of sinners. This does not always imply, as we often assume, that the people once were saved but then lost it.

Click to expand...

Any scripture for this statement?

Rick Otto said:

Good post. It moved me to reflect on being born again, and I'm pretty sure, but wondering if the the feeling of total conviction and total commitment that it was for me, is universal. I was astounded and will never forget the moment it struck me.

Click to expand...

Rick Otto said:

Sir, do you remember being born again?
No judgement, just curious.

Click to expand...

You're not born again, in fact you're just kidding yourself. Being born again is "NOT" a one day event! It's a gradual process that takes years to change because you're transforming yourself from being carnal in your heart and mind, to being spiritual.

These are the characteristics of someone walking in the spirit: "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control."

These are the characteristics of someone walking in the flesh: "adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries."

Galatians 5:16-26
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.


So are you trying to tell us in one day, you were able to disregard "adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries" and replaced them all with "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control?"

I don't think so! People just don't transform themselves overnight. And you have to walk in the spirit to be born again. If you're still walking after the flesh, you're not a new creature (born again).

John 3:6-7
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Matthew 18:3
and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.


As for the question about me. I'm gradually being born again as I'm working on it everyday of my life (gradually being transform). A few months ago, I recently learned, understand and overcome how to have faithfulness for God after being tested for 4 years on just that characteristic alone. Being born again does not happen in one day.

Do you understand what all this means? A person is not born again the moment they confess the sinner's prayer and accept Christ as savior and become a christian. This is only the first step in a long journey throughout your life --- endure till the end, then you'll be saved. (Matthew 24:13)

You decide to apostate anytime during your transformation, the salvation is lost. You deny Christ, He will deny you. (2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 10:33). It's all about your free will.

HannahElizaW said:

If you (whether you really do or not) followed/accepted/etc. the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved' and someone of the same belief came to you struggling with a lot of sin in their life and contemplating/doubting over their salvation...

what would you tell them?

Click to expand...

I would proceed according to this:

Matt 18.15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."

aiki said:

Can you show me from the passages themselves where they say what you're saying here?

As for the passage from 1Corinthians 3 that you cited, how do you reconcile your idea about believers who aren't yet born again with the things Paul says about those to whom he is writing? He says of them in chapter 3:

vs. 1 - "[you are] babes in Christ..."
vs. 8 - "you are God's field, you are God's building..."
vs. 16 - "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"
vs. 23 - "and you are Christ's..."

It seems very clear to me that Paul thought of the Corinthians to whom he was writing, not as unsaved believers, but as genuinely born-again disciples of Christ, however carnal and spiritually immature they were.

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I'll reply to your entire post tomorrow as I have a lot to discuss in this area and I'm growing short on time now. But I'll cover the first topic you posted.

1) vs. 1 - "[you are] babes in Christ..."

1 Corinthians 3:1
My friends, you are acting like the people of this world. That’s why I could not speak to you as spiritual people. You are like babies as far as your faith in Christ is concerned.

As I've said before, Paul is addressing two groups of christians, 1) those in-Christ who are spiritual minded and 2) those who recognizes Christ as the Son of God but are still carnal minded following the flesh.

Red letters = carnal christians (babies in Christ). Black letters = disciples, spiritual-minded, mature in-Christ.

2) vs. 8 - "you are God's field, you are God's building..."

1 Corinthians 3:9
Apollos and I work together for God, and you are God’s garden and God’s building.

Apollos and I = two groups of Christians (read preceding verses). But both work together for God.

3) vs. 16 - "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"

This should be obvious Aiki. It said "the Spirit of God dwells in you." Only those who have the holy spirit are the ones walking in the spirit. These are those mature in-Christ (not the babes in-Christ).

More evidence in preceding verses: 1 Corinthians 3:10-16.

Paul stated in verse 12, "if" anyone builds on this foundation (Christ). Only those being saved are the ones building on a solid foundation (Christ). Those who are perishing builds their foundation on sand. (Parable of the Wise and Foolish Builder: Matthew 7:24-27). Two groups of builders (Christians that builds on Christ and Christians that builds on sand).

So when Paul said "if anyone builds on this foundation" he meant only those who will be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:10-16
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

4) vs. 23 - "and you are Christ's..."

Read the preceding verses. It's telling you everything - good or bad - belongs to Christ/God. Paul is not saying those who are babes are in Christ. He's telling us everything "are Christ's."

1 Corinthians 3:21-23
21 Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. 23 And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

It's not theory, it's Christ's testimony. Read the whole chapter and not focus only on a single verse: John 10:28. He tells you He has other sheep He must also lead until both becomes one flock.

John 10:11-30
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

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So who are the other sheep that Jesus is speaking about here? And who are the original sheep?

Matthew Twentyfour said:

If you don't follow in obedience, there is not relationship. Christ will not come to live with willful sinners. Out of your own free will, you have to choose to follow Him first before He comes to you as the holy spirit. This is the second group of sheep that are currently lost, (John 10:16).

John 14:21-23
21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

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So, do you see John 14:21-23 as part of sanctification or justification?