Are women inferior to men?

ViaCrucis

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1) Junia was not necessarily an apostle and was not necessarily a woman. See https://bible.org/article/junia-among-apostles-double-identification-problem-romans-167

It was the historic position, accepted uncontroversially, in the ancient Church. St. John Chrysostom, in one of his many homilies, goes in some length about how important St. Junia the apostle must have been that she was considered "prominent among the apostles".

The ancient Church had no problem with a female apostle, that seems to largely be something only we moderns have a problem with.

0517st-junia0001.jpg


(From left to right: St. Andronicus the Apostle, St. Athanasius of Constantinople, and St. Junia the Apostle)

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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A historic position doesn't necessarily have to be correct.

No, but it does make the rather late (historically speaking) position that Junia was male and/or not an apostle rather suspect in light of the historical position of the Christian Church.

No one seems to have really doubted these things until the late middle ages, which is also the reason why ultimately Junia is called Junius in the KJV. And here it was only ever an issue in the West, the East has never had an issue, and the Feast of Sts. Andronicus and Junia the Apostles is celebrated on May 17 by the Eastern Orthodox Church, or Pashons 23 on the Coptic Orthodox Calendar,

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Imagican

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Actually what is really scary is when people read a verse/passage in Scripture, believe they know what it is saying, teach that everyone else should obey this "clear teaching of the Bible" and implying that those who don't are following their own desires and disobeying God.
For example Paul said that it is disgraceful for men to have long hair; this is the clear teaching of Scripture. So why did Samson? And how do you know how long is long? Jesus said that if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off. Again, plain teaching, but no one would actually do it.

The Bible does not clearly say that women cannot be leaders, that's the thing. If it did, if Paul made it very clear, repeated it in all his letters and Jesus taught it, then we'd know for sure, there wouldn't be these debates, nor would there be female Ministers and preachers.

Not true.

Paul's letters addressed issues specific to the different places to which he wrote. They were not 'parts of the Bible' when they were written. They were letters Paul addressed to specific people in specific places for specific instruction at the time.

Obviously a 'Church' that wasn't having problems with tongues or a group that wasn't experiencing problems with women would need no commentary related to the subject.

The love of money is the root of all evil. This is stated in the Bible. Yet which among us doesn't 'love' money or what it is capable of 'doing for' us. So your reasoning makes no sense.

Homosexuality is an abomination to God. But how many among the so called: "Christian Community" ignore this message in the Bible? No different than the Bible 'stating' that a woman cannot be a 'Church leader' yet many ignoring this for the sake of their own desires. And others supporting them.

Your reasoning is flawed from it's very foundation.

For we 'do know' for sure.

1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 14:35
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 11:8
For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

1 Corinthians 11:9
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Timothy 3:1
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach

1 Timothy 3:12
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Genesis 3:

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

All this information you stated doesn't exist. And also stated that if it did exist, there would no longer be anything to debate.

Blessings,

MEC
 
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Achilles6129

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In my view, we have to ask what the text itself says. I think that Dan Wallace makes some good points about "Junias" actually being male. Even if "she" were female, Wallace also points out that the text need not be translated in such a way as to make her an apostle.

So the entire case that "Junia" is a female apostle is tenuous, at best.
 
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Strong in Him

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Paul's letters addressed issues specific to the different places to which he wrote. They were not 'parts of the Bible' when they were written. They were letters Paul addressed to specific people in specific places for specific instruction at the time.

Exactly.
And it seems that you are willing to consider that for any subject except that of women in church.

Obviously a 'Church' that wasn't having problems with tongues or a group that wasn't experiencing problems with women would need no commentary related to the subject.

It seems that the only problem that people were having with women was that some of them talked throughout the service and asked questions while the preacher was talking.
1 Corinthians 14:35.
If they want to enquire about something , they should ask their own husbands at home;
Paul wouldn't have said that unless women were asking other women's husbands, and in the middle of the service. He says here, and in 1 Timothy 2:12 that women should learn in silence. Quite right, so should everyone - you might miss something otherwise.

The churches in Rome and Philippi clearly had no problem with women, they allowed them to serve and Paul praised them as his co workers.

The love of money is the root of all evil. This is stated in the Bible. Yet which among us doesn't 'love' money or what it is capable of 'doing for' us. So your reasoning makes no sense.

What's that got to do with it?

Homosexuality is an abomination to God. But how many among the so called: "Christian Community" ignore this message in the Bible?

Gossip, slander, lying, drunkenness and other sins are an abomination to the Lord. How many Christians ignore this and focus exclusively on homosexuality? When was the last time you saw Christians complaining, heckling and demonstrating because someone had allowed a gossiper to be a church member? Or because a leader was quick to make accusations against people? Or because the organist regularly got drunk in his own home? Scripture condemns all these things, not just homosexuality.

No different than the Bible 'stating' that a woman cannot be a 'Church leader' yet many ignoring this for the sake of their own desires. And others supporting them.

The Bible doesn't say that women can't be leaders, that's the point. If it did, God would not have called, and be calling, women to do this.
And please don't say that he hasn't. I don't believe that every single female preacher/minister over many years, in different continents has got it wrong, has not heard God's voice and is/has been only serving herself and her own interests.
I know God called me to preach his word. My own desires? No, I didn't want to and it was never part of my plan. There are far easier ways of serving God than writing sermons, which are only heard by a few people and appreciated by even fewer. And if I was serving my own interests or doing it for my own glory, I wouldn't come on this forum, admit to it and then have to deal with accusations that I am ignoring/twisting Scripture, am disobeying God, am a feminist and am serving my own ego - all of which has been thrown at me over the years.

God guides his children and is able to keep us from making a mistake or falling into sin.

Am having trouble writing this on my Kindle fire; I'll continue tomorrow.
 
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SkyWriting

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It seems that the only problem that people were having with women was that some of them talked throughout the service and asked questions while the preacher was talking.
1 Corinthians 14:35.
If they want to enquire about something , they should ask their own husbands at home;
Paul wouldn't have said that unless women were asking other women's husbands, and in the middle of the service. He says here, and in 1 Timothy 2:12 that women should learn in silence. Quite right, so should everyone - you might miss something otherwise.

The churches in Rome and Philippi clearly had no problem with women, they allowed them to serve and Paul praised them as his co workers.

Correct. It was a very local problem and solution.
 
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SkyWriting

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Please explain. Are you saying that homosexuality is not an abomination to God?

Actually it's lack of commitment that is the problem.
I'll be happy to explain any scripture passages that
suggest any hints this is not the problem.
 
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Was 1 Tim. 2 a local problem?
I don't see how it helps your argument:
I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of
all men,
for kings
and all who are in authority,
so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

Who are you suggesting we not pray for?
Queen Elizabeth
Queen Margrethe
Dilma Vana Linhares Rousseff
Geun-hye?
 
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SkyWriting

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it is perfectly clear that women have no authority over men

Have authority over women, just as you would have all women have authority over you.
This is the summation of the law and the prophets.
 
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Achilles6129

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I don't see how it helps your argument:
I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of
all men,
for kings
and all who are in authority,
so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

Who are you suggesting we not pray for?
Queen Elizabeth
Queen Margrethe
Dilma Vana Linhares Rousseff
Geun-hye?
I think you know which passage I was referring to.
 
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