.

Peter J Barban said:

1. 2Tim 3:16-17 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
This does not say that the scriptures are sufficient. It says they are useful. Useful does not imply sufficient. This is bad logic.

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It says "so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work". It doesn't say partially equipped, it says thoroughly equipped. It doesn't say for only some good work, it says for every good work.

Peter J Barban said:

2. Joshua 1:7-8 "This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success."
This does not say that the scriptures, especially the OT scriptures are sufficient. It says that obeying the Law of Moses will make one successful. Do you believe that is sufficient, today? It is not even talking about the rest of the Bible. This is just bad Bible study.

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The law of Moses was the only scripture the Israelite's had, of course they referred to scripture as 'the Law'. Are you seriously suggesting that 'the law' throughout bible only means the law given to Moses. That Psalm 1:2, Psalm 119 or Matthew 5:18 for instance, does not apply to the whole of scripture? If you are thinking that narrowly then all the OT teachings given to Israel has no relevance to us, and we can basically ignore the whole OT.

Peter J Barban said:

3. Colossians 3:16 "Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another"
Nothing about sufficiency here. Are you even reading these verses?

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It says that the word of Christ gives us all wisdom for teaching and admonishing one another. Why therefore do we need extra revelation for that purpose?

Peter J Barban said:

4. James 1:25 "But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does."
We will be blessed if we abide by the perfect law. The perfect law is not synonymous with the Bible. It is referring the law of Christ which is written on our hearts. The Bible shows us some, but not all of the perfect law. In fact, the New Testament does not have a "law" section the way the OT does. Even if the perfect law = Bible, it is not talking about sufficiency.

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No, James is referring to God's word. Read the context from v21 onwards.

Peter J Barban said:

5. John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."
Another great verse that does not speak of sufficiency.

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If God's word fully sanctifies us, we don't need extra revelations to help make us holy.

Peter J Barban said:

6. 2 Peter 1:3 "His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness."
Now we are exposing the lie of this theology. It substitutes God's power for God's word. This is a satanic level of confusion. Peter knew Christ in person, not through scripture. This verse clearly teaches that God's power is sufficient, it does not refer primarily to God's word.

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You clearly didn't read the verse properly, or my previous post.


What is the source of our knowledge of God? His divine power gives us everything we need through scripture.

Peter J Barban said:

7. Psalm 19:7-8 The law of the Lord is perfect, refreshing the soul.
The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple.
The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes.
Even though King David calls the law perfect, God sent a prophet to confront David's sin. Obviously, David needed more that the law to live a life that pleased God. In context, this is an anti-sufficiency verse.

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Of course. Just having the scriptures doesn't automatically impart those benefits, you have to observe and obey them. Something that David failed to do.

Psalm 19 is far from anti-sufficiency. Read the whole psalm especially v7-13. It is one of the best passages to prove the sufficiency of scripture.

Peter J Barban said:

The people who lived in Bible times did not believe the Bible was sufficient. They had priests and prophets, visions and dreams, rabbi's and pharisees, miracles and wonders to supplement the scriptures.

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New revelation is not given by priests, rabbis, pharisees, miracles and wonders. The prophets certainly gave new revelation, but the age of the prophets is over:

Peter J Barban said:

Nowhere does God say that he is going to stop interacting with us beyond the Bible.

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We are not talking about "interacting" we are talking about giving new revelation to aid us. And the bible says scripture is all we need in that regard.

sunlover1 said:

And "THESE" Days, He speaks through His Spirit, who will teach us all things:
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

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Look at the context of that verse. Who was Jesus speaking to? It is the twelve. He is saying the HS would teach them all they need to be apostles and will bring to their remembrance all that He did in their presence so they can write scripture. How can "bring to your remembrance all that I said to you" apply to us?

Even if you do stretch it to apply to all believers, it says nothing about God speaking private revelations in your head.

Peter J Barban said:

I completely agree. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide, empower and comfort us.

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But not give us new revelations in our heads.

swordsman1 said:

It says "so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work". It doesn't say partially equipped, it says thoroughly equipped. It doesn't say for only some good work, it says for every good work.



The law of Moses was the only scripture the Israelite's had, of course they referred to scripture as 'the Law'. Are you seriously suggesting that 'the law' throughout bible only means the law given to Moses. That Psalm 1:2, Psalm 119 or Matthew 5:18 for instance, does not apply to the whole of scripture? If you are thinking that narrowly then all the OT teachings given to Israel has no relevance to us, and we can basically ignore the whole OT.



It says that the word of Christ gives us all wisdom for teaching and admonishing one another. Why therefore do we need extra revelation for that purpose?



No, James is referring to God's word. Read the context from v21 onwards.



If God's word fully sanctifies us, we don't need extra revelations to help make us holy.



You clearly didn't read the verse properly, or my previous post.

2 Peter 1:3 "His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness."​

What is the source of our knowledge of God? His divine power gives us everything we need through scripture.




Of course. Just having the scriptures doesn't automatically impart those benefits, you have to observe and obey them. Something that David failed to do.

Psalm 19 is far from anti-sufficiency. Read the whole psalm especially v7-13. It is one of the best passages to prove the sufficiency of scripture.



New revelation is not given by priests, rabbis, pharisees, miracles and wonders. The prophets certainly gave new revelation, but the age of the prophets is over:

Heb 1:1 "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son."​

We are not talking about "interacting" we are talking about giving new revelation to aid us. And the bible says scripture is all we need in that regard.

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I don't believe that you are using the Word of God correctly and that angers me. However, I don't think it is profitable to correct you on this. I will merely confirm that my interpretation is correct and yours is not.

Much has been made of the idea that we are fully equipped by the Bible. I accept what those verses say. However, the sufficiency of the Bible, referred to in 2 Timothy 3:17, as a completed cannon falls apart because Paul did not have a completed cannon when he said the scripture can equip us. Even the incomplete scriptures can thoroughly equip us. Yet, God still spoke and gave new information.

However such verses don't say that the Bible is all we need to please God.

A soldier may be fully equipped, yet stand idle during battle. Or fight on the wrong hill, thus displeasing his commander. A soldier needs a mission. The Bible however, cannot give us a specific mission. It cannot tell you to be a missionary or which country to go to.

That is why Paul received a call to become a missionary in Acts 13:2

By the way, we don't know how the Holy Spirit spoke, there is no reason to assume it was an audible voice.

Later, on one of his missionary Journeys, Paul was guided by the Holy Spirit in Acts 16:6-10
Even if Paul had the complete scriptures to thoroughly equip him, he would not have known what God's specific instructions were. Paul needed the voice of God.

Just as we do today. In fact, I have been called by the Holy Spirit to be a missionary and I have been guided by the Holy Spirit to work in Taiwan, rather than Eastern Europe or China.

So, the Bible does equip me, but that is not sufficient. I need the Holy Spirit to direct me where and how to serve God, just like Paul did.

thatbrian said:

Here's a challenge to all of the faith healers out there. Pray me well, and I will repent and recant. It's that simple.

I have had a fever for 3 days, and it's worsening. On top of that, I'm suffering from relentless GERD which is burning my esophagus as I write. I have not slept much in the past three nights, and I am worried about ending up in the ER tonight.

Here's your chance to prove me wrong, and watch me eat humble pie. It must come to me suddenly. That's the only stipulation. Healing in all but one instance was like turning on a light switch, so if I experience that type thing, I will have a changed mind. If, however, I recover in 3 days, no go.

(I actually do believe God heals today, but I don't think He speaks as some have claimed)

Have at it!

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I like action.

If you happen to check back in here, did you end up in the ER ? How is your status/fever/etc ?

Peter J Barban said:

Much has been made of the idea that we are fully equipped by the Bible. I accept what those verses say. However, the sufficiency of the Bible, referred to in 2 Timothy 3:17, as a completed cannon falls apart because Paul did not have a completed cannon when he said the scripture can equip us.

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All the passages in the bible referring to scripture were written before the canon was complete. Does that mean we ignore them all?

Peter J Barban said:

That is why Paul received a call to become a missionary in Acts 13:2
"While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
By the way, we don't know how the Holy Spirit spoke, there is no reason to assume it was an audible voice.

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It almost certainly was an audible voice because the exact words are recorded. If it wasn't the Holy Spirit speaking those exact words then that portion of scripture is a lie. It's the same as all the other prophecies in the bible. They are usually in the form "Thus says the Lord: "<exact words here>". They are God's words, not man's.

Peter J Barban said:

Later, on one of his missionary Journeys, Paul was guided by the Holy Spirit in Acts 16:6-10
"6Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. 7When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to. 8So they passed by Mysia and went down to Troas. 9During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them."
Even if Paul had the complete scriptures to thoroughly equip him, he would not have known what God's specific instructions were. Paul needed the voice of God.

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Just because the Apostle Paul had a vision, doesn't mean it is normative for us to have visions. He was an apostle and a prophet, in a unique period of redemptive history. We are not.

Peter J Barban said:

Just as we do today. In fact, I have been called by the Holy Spirit to be a missionary and I have been guided by the Holy Spirit to work in Taiwan, rather than Eastern Europe or China.

So, the Bible does equip me, but that is not sufficient. I need the Holy Spirit to direct me where and how to serve God, just like Paul did.

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It is good that you feel God is guiding you to be a missionary. But you haven't said how. Was it a "God told me" message or a leading of the Holy Spirit? Although God doesn't give new revelations via our feelings (that is not biblical), he still leads us by his Spirit (Rom 8:14).

He leads us by transforming our minds to be in accordance to his will (Rom 12:2). He can lead us via our circumstances, God being in full control of the circumstances we find ourselves (Rom 8:28, Job 42:2). He can lead us via the advice of other godly people (Prov 12:15, Prov 19:20-21). And of course He leads us, and indeed speaks to us, via scripture which is the overriding and confirming authority.

The only way God speaks to us today is via scripture which is "living and active". He doesn't give new revelation especially in subjective, mystical, unbiblical ways such as via our feelings or words popping into our heads which may be nothing more than your own imagination or worse still an avenue for demonic deception.

Here is the short version of my story. Through the ministry of the Navigators, I became a born again Christian on Halloween morning in 1991 at the University of Illinois as a sophomore. Exactly one week later during a Christian retreat, one student gave a presentation on the need for missionaries. Though I did not hear a voice, I discerned very clearly that God wanted me to be a missionary. Jumping ahead, if have never doubted my call or regretted it.

I immediately began preparing to become equipped for the mission field. I did not know much about missions and thought all missionaries go to Africa. However, the person who led me to Christ and discipled me for a year, pointed out that missionaries go all over the world. Since we were at a Big 10 university, he suggested that I meet with lots of international students and see which culture I fit in with. Over a period of months, I discerned that God was calling me to work with Chinese. So I joined a second group, the Illini Chinese Christian Fellowship, in addition to the Navigators, to confirm my calling. I felt very comfortable and they accepted me even though I was the only white person there.

After graduation, for six months, I started a new Navigator ministry at North Texas State University while being discipled by a missionary who had served in many Asian countries over the decades. Then, he sent me to serve in the Philippines for 3 months. The highlight was when my team participated in an awesome revival at a small mountain town on our last day in the field. That trip confirmed my calling as a missionary, but made it clear, the Philippines was not my calling.

After returning to America, I sought out a denomination which would send me out as a missionary. I ended up back at my college town helping strengthen an extension church of the Christian and Missionary Alliance (C&MA). After serving in that church as a deacon, I attended the main C&MA seminary in Nyack, New York. The Seminary told me that the C&MA doesn't send people to China, but I could prepare for Taiwan. I was disappointed at first, but agreed.

At seminary, I attended a Chinese American Church in Queens for a year, then I got a paying job serving at a Taiwanese Reformed Church in New Jersey. I taught the Bible for 2 years, then my final became the first youth pastor of the church. All these things continued to confirm my early call.

Unfortunately, after I graduated, the C&MA had financial problems and stopped sending missionaries to Taiwan because the country was too expensive and the people too unresponsive to the Gospel. Instead, they wanted to send me to Eastern Europe/Russia because the Berlin Wall had come down and that area was opening up to Protestant missionaries.

By this time, I understood my calling was specifically to Taiwan, so I quit the C&MA which I had invested many years with and came over to serve God in Taiwan. Fortunately, my New Jersey church had connections with a church in Taipei, Taiwan and even surprised me by buying my plane ticket to Taiwan. I arrived in Taiwan in July 1992 and became an English teacher to support myself while I serve the church for free. I have been in Suan Lien Presbyterian Church for almost 25 years, though I do help out other churches when I can.

If you are wondering how I discerned God's calling to be a missionary in Taiwan, it was a gradual process which became more clear as I matured in Christ. In anticipation of objections concerning the unreliability of feelings and impressions (notice that I didn't use those words), the Bible clearly teaches about spiritual discernment:

As the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:14-16

thatbrian said:

Here's a challenge to all of the faith healers out there. Pray me well, and I will repent and recant. It's that simple.

I have had a fever for 3 days, and it's worsening. On top of that, I'm suffering from relentless GERD which is burning my esophagus as I write. I have not slept much in the past three nights, and I am worried about ending up in the ER tonight.

Here's your chance to prove me wrong, and watch me eat humble pie. It must come to me suddenly. That's the only stipulation. Healing in all but one instance was like turning on a light switch, so if I experience that type thing, I will have a changed mind. If, however, I recover in 3 days, no go.

(I actually do believe God heals today, but I don't think He speaks as some have claimed)

Have at it!

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Darn, just saw this.
What happened?
But you're putting your stipulations on GOD??
Jesus healed the blind man and it was a process.
First the people seemed as trees iirc.

Peter J Barban said:

Here is the short version of my story. Through the ministry of the Navigators, I became a born again Christian on Halloween morning in 1991 at the University of Illinois as a sophomore. Exactly one week later during a Christian retreat, one student gave a presentation on the need for missionaries. Though I did not hear a voice, I discerned very clearly that God wanted me to be a missionary. Jumping ahead, if have never doubted my call or regretted it.

I immediately began preparing to become equipped for the mission field. I did not know much about missions and thought all missionaries go to Africa. However, the person who led me to Christ and discipled me for a year, pointed out that missionaries go all over the world. Since we were at a Big 10 university, he suggested that I meet with lots of international students and see which culture I fit in with. Over a period of months, I discerned that God was calling me to work with Chinese. So I joined a second group, the Illini Chinese Christian Fellowship, in addition to the Navigators, to confirm my calling. I felt very comfortable and they accepted me even though I was the only white person there.

After graduation, for six months, I started a new Navigator ministry at North Texas State University while being discipled by a missionary who had served in many Asian countries over the decades. Then, he sent me to serve in the Philippines for 3 months. The highlight was when my team participated in an awesome revival at a small mountain town on our last day in the field. That trip confirmed my calling as a missionary, but made it clear, the Philippines was not my calling.

After returning to America, I sought out a denomination which would send me out as a missionary. I ended up back at my college town helping strengthen an extension church of the Christian and Missionary Alliance (C&MA). After serving in that church as a deacon, I attended the main C&MA seminary in Nyack, New York. The Seminary told me that the C&MA doesn't send people to China, but I could prepare for Taiwan. I was disappointed at first, but agreed.

At seminary, I attended a Chinese American Church in Queens for a year, then I got a paying job serving at a Taiwanese Reformed Church in New Jersey. I taught the Bible for 2 years, then my final became the first youth pastor of the church. All these things continued to confirm my early call.

Unfortunately, after I graduated, the C&MA had financial problems and stopped sending missionaries to Taiwan because the country was too expensive and the people too unresponsive to the Gospel. Instead, they wanted to send me to Eastern Europe/Russia because the Berlin Wall had come down and that area was opening up to Protestant missionaries.

By this time, I understood my calling was specifically to Taiwan, so I quit the C&MA which I had invested many years with and came over to serve God in Taiwan. Fortunately, my New Jersey church had connections with a church in Taipei, Taiwan and even surprised me by buying my plane ticket to Taiwan. I arrived in Taiwan in July 1992 and became an English teacher to support myself while I serve the church for free. I have been in Suan Lien Presbyterian Church for almost 25 years, though I do help out other churches when I can.

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Great testimony. Thanks for sharing.

Peter J Barban said:

If you are wondering how I discerned God's calling to be a missionary in Taiwan, it was a gradual process which became more clear as I matured in Christ. In anticipation of objections concerning the unreliability of feelings and impressions (notice that I didn't use those words), the Bible clearly teaches about spiritual discernment:

As the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:14-16
14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”d
But we have the mind of Christ.

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Yes, having the mind of Christ. That is certainly a valid method of being led by God. Having our whole way of thinking transformed into the way Christ himself thinks.


But how do we renew our minds? By replacing the world's way of thinking with God's truth. By exposing our minds to the truth regarding the teachings and glories of Christ, which the Holy Spirit will imprint upon our minds, making us more and more like Him.

Not by following voices or words popping into our head or verbalizing our thoughts/feelings/conscience into a "God told me" message. That is simply dangerous mysticism.

thatbrian said:

In Mark 10 Jesus gives instructions to the apostles. He even names them, and I didn't see your name or mine in the list.

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And this proves what, exactly? You seem to be saying that Jesus only gave those Gifts once to 12 men, and never again gave Gifts of the Spirit... Paul disagrees, and speaks of "striving for" such Gifts to those whom he is discipling and fathering in Christ...

You would not read any other book the way you are attempting to here.

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The Bible is a very special Book...

It shows utter contempt for the author and an astounding degree of narcissism to read yourself into every page.

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So are you calling sunlover1 a contemptuous narcissist for applying the Bible to herself and her life?

Isn't that a tad harsh and hard hearted?

I mean, when you point your finger at another person like you just did, you have to notice that there are THREE fingers pointing straight back at you every time... An accusation is a confession concealed...

The Bible is not about you (or me).

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It most assuredly IS about each and every mother's son and daughter ever born...

You are reading someone else's mail and trying to make it your own.

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We are ALL born dead in Adam, and find Life in Christ...

Or not...

That is what the Bible is about - Each and every one of us...

In the below text, who gave the authority, and who has the authority to heal every disease and sickness? They are mentioned by name, so we don't need to guess.

Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,a drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.​

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He has been giving these Gifts for 2000 years now...

To those who follow Him...

Arsenios

/

thatbrian said:

I am slowly recovering, thanks for asking, and I did not end up in the ER.

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Good you're recovering then, hopefully. And no trip to the ER is a good trip to take.

Now onto your post ... if you had been healed in the manner in which you requested, are you serious, in that you believe you would "recant/repent", etc ? I tend to believe that most people actually don't have an idea as to how they would react in extraordinary circumstances, and so they have an idealized version in their mind as to how they would respond, but when faced with the reality, it's much different. So with that qualifier ... do you actually believe that had your standards been met, that you would have changed your belief system that radically ?

I'm not sure if that's intellectual honesty, or laziness. If you were attempting to be honest ... what I think it shows, is one of Arthur C. Clarke's rules coming into place, or at least a variation on a theme of it: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." In this regard, any event that is extraordinary enough to impress the individual beyond what they can comprehend or perform themselves, is deemed supernatural/spiritual/magical/etc. Thus, all you are showing, is that you would be no different than any other person who believes in "X". It's simply a matter of meeting your personal threshold of awe and amazement. Thus, all your understanding you currently hold and believe, after studying and reading all that you have and coming to the conclusions you have .. would be thrown out the window, and "therefore God" would be the result ? You'd simply recant and repent, just like that ? You wouldn't conclude demons healed you ? Or some psychic extraterrestrial force ? Or dead ancestors ? Or Cargo Cult magic ? Or, perhaps if you lived in North Korea, some magical Juche power healed you ? You see the point ? There wouldn't be an objective basis for your new and sudden conclusion ... it is subjective, because many others may attribute your "healing" to any other number of options. What this perhaps also shows, if that is the case ... is that there really is no objective basis for your current positions either, if they are so easily tossed aside or augmented. It's one thing to let your beliefs change with the ebb and flow of the evidence, HOWEVER ... to go from "Mental deficiencies, demons, brain trauma, delusions, but no God" to "therefore God" based on you having been healed according to your demands, isn't subjective. It's the very thing you accused others of earlier: focus on self. It becomes all about your own standards that some extraordinary entity has to pass, in order to be recognized as "God" by you. People have done that all throughout history ... blindly followed whom they deem the most powerful person or thing in the room, or the thing that appealed to them the most, and either worshiped it as God, or came close.

swordsman1 said:

Great testimony. Thanks for sharing.



Yes, having the mind of Christ. That is certainly a valid method of being led by God. Having our whole way of thinking transformed into the way Christ himself thinks.

Romans 12:2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.​

But how do we renew our minds? By replacing the world's way of thinking with God's truth. By exposing our minds to the truth regarding the teachings and glories of Christ, which the Holy Spirit will imprint upon our minds, making us more and more like Him.

Not by following voices or words popping into our head or verbalizing our thoughts/feelings/conscience into a "God told me" message. That is simply dangerous mysticism.

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I really liked this post except for the last paragraph.

When I was a new Christian, I was frustrated by others who said the heard from God, or knew God's will outside the Bible. I asked them many questions, not out of skepticism, but more like cautious testing. I experience many of the things you complain about, feelings, impressions, etc. Again, I tested them cautiously. I was the same with the voice of God.

The first time that I remember hearing the voice of God in my head was while preparing my last sermon for my Taiwanese Church in New Jersey before I left for Taiwan. The leaders had asked me to give a sermon to the entire church for my first time, rather than just the children. I lay on my bed thinking and praying about what to say to the adults. A loud voice in my head, which I discerned was from God, said, "The children!".

The last thing that I wanted to talk about was the children. But the voice of God was clear, so I tried to discern what should I tell the parents about their children. Eventually, I believed that God wanted me to exhort the parents to allow their children to serve God rather than focus exclusively on worldly success. During the sermon, I told them that God might even call some of their children to become pastors and missionaries. I was concerned that my message might be offensive, but they loved the challenge.

A number of years later, one of the boys from that church came to Taiwan to become the English Pastor for my church in Taiwan. We were quite surprised to meet each other. He was literally the last person I expected to become a minister. I knew him as a 13 year old kid who was always looking out the window and dreaming of baseball during my Bible teaching. I liked his older brother much better.

It turned out that he became more serious with God under a new youth pastor and got involved in youth/sports ministry. He finally pursued a management career but his NYC building was damaged during 911. His company had to downsize and he was without a job. Then he told his parents about his desire to go into ministry. His parents consented (very important for Taiwanese families) and he went to seminary and eventually came to our church.

He was our English Pastor for 7 years and then quit due to internal politics. I am convinced that God spoke to me that time, long ago. I obeyed the voice of God and the rest of up to God.

Peter J Barban said:

When I was a new Christian, I was frustrated by others who said the heard from God, or knew God's will outside the Bible. I asked them many questions, not out of skepticism, but more like cautious testing. I experience many of the things you complain about, feelings, impressions, etc. Again, I tested them cautiously. I was the same with the voice of God.

The first time that I remember hearing the voice of God in my head was while preparing my last sermon for my Taiwanese Church in New Jersey before I left for Taiwan. The leaders had asked me to give a sermon to the entire church for my first time, rather than just the children. I lay on my bed thinking and praying about what to say to the adults. A loud voice in my head, which I discerned was from God, said, "The children!".

The last thing that I wanted to talk about was the children. But the voice of God was clear, so I tried to discern what should I tell the parents about their children. Eventually, I believed that God wanted me to exhort the parents to allow their children to serve God rather than focus exclusively on worldly success. During the sermon, I told them that God might even call some of their children to become pastors and missionaries. I was concerned that my message might be offensive, but they loved the challenge.

A number of years later, one of the boys from that church came to Taiwan to become the English Pastor for my church in Taiwan. We were quite surprised to meet each other. He was literally the last person I expected to become a minister. I knew him as a 13 year old kid who was always looking out the window and dreaming of baseball during my Bible teaching. I liked his older brother much better.

It turned out that he became more serious with God under a new youth pastor and got involved in youth/sports ministry. He finally pursued a management career but his NYC building was damaged during 911. His company had to downsize and he was without a job. Then he told his parents about his desire to go into ministry. His parents consented (very important for Taiwanese families) and he went to seminary and eventually came to our church.

He was our English Pastor for 7 years and then quit due to internal politics. I am convinced that God spoke to me that time, long ago. I obeyed the voice of God and the rest of up to God.

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Nice story. But do you expect us to believe that God speaks to us via voices in our heads based solely on your "experience" and that of others? Prove it by clear teaching from scripture and I might be convinced. Otherwise it is yet another false teaching. On such an important matter as God speaking to us there would undoubtedly be clear didactic teaching. Doctrine is never determined by experience. It is far too subjective, especially if we are expected to believe it based on the testimony of others where there is no guarantee they are telling the truth. Only by God's word, and God's word alone is doctrine determined. And the doctrine you describe is totally without biblical warrant. Or does experience now trump scripture?

Not only that but this mystical idea of listening for voices is fraught with obvious pitfalls that can easily lead you astray. Satan must be happy as pie to see God's children naively following voices in their head which he can so easily counterfeit.

thatbrian said:

Really? Technology needs to be present to perform. If I were healed it would have been absent from any invention of man because there were none present.

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If you feel too ill to respond, no worries, but hopefully you continue to recover.

Back to the convo ... so if you were healed in the manner in which you requested, is the only explanation a miracle of God ? Were you serious in that you would "repent/recant" should your standards be met in such an instance ? And what would you repent/recant of/from ?