What is the second first Sabbath?

visionary · Mar 21, 2016

Which is the Second First Sabbath?

Luke 6 1 Now it happened that, on the second first Sabbath, as he passed through the grain field, his disciples were separating the ears of grain and eating them, by rubbing them in their hands. 2 Then certain Pharisees said to them, “Why are you doing what is not lawful on the Sabbaths?” 3 And responding to them, Jesus said: “Have you not read this, what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him? 4 How he entered into the house of God, and took the bread of the Presence, and ate it, and gave it to those who were with him, though it is not lawful for anyone to eat it, except the priests alone?” 5 And he said to them, “For the Son of man is Lord, even of the Sabbath.”

1.) Is it the first Sabbath after the First Fruits?

The second first Sabbath is the first Sabbath after the first Sabbath of Passover. The first Sabbath of Passover is used as a starting point for counting the seven weeks (and seven Sabbaths) until the Feast of Weeks. The day after the first Sabbath of Passover is day one in that count. (The ancients did not use the concept of zero in counting, but in our way of thinking, the first Sabbath of Passover is zero.) So the first week of the seven weeks ends with the first Sabbath of the seven Sabbaths on day 7. This is the first Sabbath in the count of seven Sabbaths to the Feast of Weeks (which is held on the day after that 7th Sabbath, i.e. the fiftieth day, or Pentecost). So there are two first Sabbaths: the first Sabbath during Passover (the day used to mark the start of the counting toward the Feast of Weeks, which is also called Pentecost) and the first Sabbath after Passover, which is the second first Sabbath.

2.) Is it the first Sabbath after the Feast of Trumpets?

The “second-first Sabbath” was the first weekly Sabbath of the month of Tishri (in the autumn of the year) in which the twenty-four priestly courses commenced their second annual cycle (from weekly Sabbath to weekly Sabbath) for administrating in the Temple.

Lulav · Mar 21, 2016

The Greek doesn't say second, not sure how that got in there.

visionary · Mar 21, 2016

http://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/sadler/the_second-first_sabbath.htm

M. F. Sadler, M. A.
Luke 6:1-2
And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields…
This is a very difficult phrase, and all explanations of it must be conjectural, as there is apparently no Sabbath designated by this name in any Rabbinical writing.

visionary · Mar 21, 2016

Luke 6:1 Translations
King James Version (KJV)
And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
American King James Version (AKJV)
And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
American Standard Version (ASV)
Now it came to pass on a sabbath, that he was going through the grainfields; and his disciples plucked the ears, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Basic English Translation (BBE)
Now it came about that on the Sabbath he was going through the fields of grain, and his disciples took the heads of the grain for food, crushing them in their hands.
Webster's Revision
Now it came to pass on a sabbath, that he was going through the grainfields; and his disciples plucked the ears, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
World English Bible
Now it happened on the second Sabbath after the first, that he was going through the grain fields. His disciples plucked the heads of grain, and ate, rubbing them in their hands.
English Revised Version (ERV)
Now it came to pass on a sabbath, that he was going through the cornfields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.

visionary · Mar 21, 2016

Others have seen in reference to First Fruits/Wave Sheaf when the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread falls on a Sabbath. If this is true, then it is a very good hint as to which year Yeshua died.

visionary · Mar 21, 2016

Does it mean that it is the second Sabbath counting toward Pentecost?

visionary · Mar 21, 2016

Lulav said:
The Greek doesn't say second, not sure how that got in there.

http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...es-sabbaton-deuteroproton-in-luke-61-refer-to

Hank77 · Mar 21, 2016

visionary said:
Others have seen in reference to First Fruits/Wave Sheaf when the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread falls on a Sabbath. If this is true, then it is a very good hint as to which year Yeshua died.

I do believe it is referring to the counting of the Feast of Weeks.

Did you know that there was a disagreement between the Sadducees and the Pharisees as to which day the count began? Today that same disagreement exists between the Karaite Jews and the Rabbinical Jews.

I agree with the Karaite Jews.
Lev 23:15 `And ye have numbered to you from the morrow of the sabbath, from the day of your bringing in the sheaf of the wave-offering: they are seven perfect sabbaths;
Lev 23:16 unto the morrow of the seventh sabbath ye do number fifty days, and ye have brought near a new present to Jehovah;

If the 50th day falls on the day After the Seventh Sabbath, how could it fall on any other day besides the first day of the week? There are not any seven Sabbaths during the Weeks other than the regular 7th day Sabbaths. This means Pentecost always falls on a first day (Sunday) not during the week.

Dave-W · Mar 22, 2016

Is this a possible difference between the Textus Receptus and the Nestle-Aland greek NT manuscripts?

Lulav · Mar 22, 2016

visionary said:
Luke 6:1 Translations
King James Version (KJV)
And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
American King James Version (AKJV)
And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
American Standard Version (ASV)
Now it came to pass on a sabbath, that he was going through the grainfields; and his disciples plucked the ears, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Basic English Translation (BBE)
Now it came about that on the Sabbath he was going through the fields of grain, and his disciples took the heads of the grain for food, crushing them in their hands.
Webster's Revision
Now it came to pass on a sabbath, that he was going through the grainfields; and his disciples plucked the ears, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
World English Bible
Now it happened on the second Sabbath after the first, that he was going through the grain fields. His disciples plucked the heads of grain, and ate, rubbing them in their hands.
English Revised Version (ERV)
Now it came to pass on a sabbath, that he was going through the cornfields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.

Yes, there are translations that say that but where is it in the Greek manuscripts?

on the second sabbath after the first
on the second sabbath after the first
on a sabbath
on the Sabbath
on a sabbath
on the second Sabbath after the first
on a sabbath

note the ones that say the second they are quantified by 'after the first'.

The NIV says 'One Sabbath Jesus'

Dave-W · Mar 22, 2016

Yeah - I looked at that list too. I noticed that the ones that read "on the second sabbath after the first" were related in one way or other to the King James version which is from the Textus Receptus.

So I did some digging on lunch break and found there is no difference in this verse in any of the manuscript families.

The phrase is sabbaton deuteroprōtos. Sabbath second first.

And since Luke was writing to one "Theophilis," [God lover] unless one is familiar with the intricacies of Koine Greek, we probably do not have a clue what was being said. And from the various ways it is rendered, I would say the translators who are SUPPOSED to know these things do not know either.

visionary · Mar 22, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
Yeah - I looked at that list too. I noticed that the ones that read "on the second sabbath after the first" were related in one way or other to the King James version which is from the Textus Receptus.

So I did some digging on lunch break and found there is no difference in this verse in any of the manuscript families.

The phrase is sabbaton deuteroprōtos. Sabbath second first.

And since Luke was writing to one "Theophilis," [God lover] unless one is familiar with the intricacies of Koine Greek, we probably do not have a clue what was being said. And from the various ways it is rendered, I would say the translators who are SUPPOSED to know these things do not know either.

https://biblethingsinbibleways.word...m-first-day-of-the-week-in-the-new-testament/

The following examination will review Greek Words using the Strong’s Greek Concordance. It maybe slightly technical, but I have tried to keep it as simple as possible. The Strong’s Greek Concordance numbers will accompany the related word within brackets (eg. G4521) for each reviewed verse. The below examination will reveal that the phrase “First day of the Week” did not have the word “day” in the Greek Manuscripts. Accordingly, our examination will show, that this phrase should read “First Week” or “First of the Weeks”. The term “First Week” or “First of the Weeks” refer to the “First” of the seven “Weeks” in the 50 day count from Christ’s Resurrection(Firstfruits) to Pentecost. Our examinations will arrive at the conclusion, that wherever the New Testament reads “First day of the Week”, it actually meant “First Week” or “First of the Weeks” in Greek. And that it exclusively referred to the “First” of the seven “Weeks” in the 7 Week count towards the day of Pentecost as seen in Lev 23:15,16, Deut 16:9,10.«

visionary · Mar 22, 2016

Here is some scholarly work from the Greek regarding this issue... Page 123
http://www.academia.edu/6831190/Manuscripts_Textual_Variants_and_Bible_Translators

Omanson further ventures a suggestion for how the enigmatic δευτεροπρώτω Ä might be trans-lated if this reading is followed (“a second sabbath after a first one,” which“may refer to the second Sabbath after the feast of Unleavened Bread, the first Sabbath being the one which occurred during the week of the feast itself”). Omanson also notes that this reading (and this interpretation) is followed in the French Traduction oecuménique de la Bible (TOB 1988; see also NTOB 2011): “on this date, close to the harvest, it is forbidden to eat grain from the new harvest.”

Lulav · Mar 22, 2016

I was just watching a video on how the translator changed Shabbat to week and I think this is connected. I'll find that video and post it so you can see for yourself.

It is strange though that those doing the 'scholarly work' tend to just take Strongs word for the proper translation. I think the major problem in translation was first to the Greek from Hebrew understanding. There is no Sabbath in Greek, this is something developed by G-d and given to the Hebrews so there wouldn't be an equivalent word. This is a transliteration from the Hebrew, but interesting that in the LXX it's plural.

W&H σαββάτῳ

LXX σαββάτων <---------------------------This is plural and is from the first of the listings of the Ten words. Interesting that it says 'Sabbaths'.

daq · Apr 13, 2016

The greatest clue may be found in the fact that "tois sabbasin" is so very often rendered singular when it should not have been so. This occurs in the immediate passage from which comes the topic of this thread, (deuteroprotos in Luke 6:1) and herein also it is mistakenly rendered singular, "the Sabbath", in some English renderings though not all:

Luke 6:2 W/H
2 τινες δε των φαρισαιων ειπαν τι ποιειτε ο ουκ εξεστιν τοις σαββασιν

The Sabbasin are the daily Shabbatot which occur every seventh hour of every day of the week. The seventh hour of the seventh day is "a Shabbat in its Shabbat" as it is written in Numbers 28:10, (and thus the weekly Shabbat is not done away if any might think that is what is being said). We find then a critical clue in the preceding passage of Luke which seems out of place when what has been said thus far is not taken into account:

Luke 5:17a
17a και εγενετο εν μια των ημερων

"And it came to pass in mia ton hemeron", that is to say, "number one of the days", and this then means the first day of the week being the number one day of the days, (of the week). This therefore is the first day of the days of the week and the events of Luke 5:17-39 occur in this day. On the very next day Luke calls it deuteroproto, (δευτεροπρωτω), because what takes place occurs in the daily Shabbat hour which is the primary Shabbat of creation, (six yamim-hours of spoken Word creation and the seventh yom He rested and ceased from all His works which He created for to do).

The δευτεροπρωτω of Luke 6:1 is therefore the second of the primary sabbasin which are the seventh hour of every day. We then read after this passage of another Shabbat which is likely the very next day. The word heteros may indeed sometimes mean "the next".

Luke 6:6a W/H
6a εγενετο δε εν ετερω σαββατω

"And it came to pass in [the] next Shabbat", (the daily Shabbat of the very next day).

If now one might desire to look up τοις σαββασιν be sure to look it up in its various contexts within the W/H because the T/R has τοις σαββασι, or, if one prefers the T/R, make note of this in the T/R and know that it is the same thing.

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daq · Apr 13, 2016

Example:

Matthew 12:1 KJV
1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

Matthew 12:1 T/R
1 εν εκεινω τω καιρω επορευθη ο ιησους τοις σαββασι δια των σποριμων οι δε μαθηται αυτου επεινασαν και ηρξαντο τιλλειν σταχυας και εσθιειν

Matthew 12:1 ASV
1 At that season Jesus went on the sabbath day through the grainfields; and his disciples were hungry and began to pluck ears and to eat.

Matthew 12:1 W/H
1 εν εκεινω τω καιρω επορευθη ο ιησους τοις σαββασιν δια των σποριμων οι δε μαθηται αυτου επεινασαν και ηρξαντο τιλλειν σταχυας και εσθιειν

See also:
Matthew 12:5, Matthew 12:10-12,
Mark 1:21, Mark 2:23-24, Mark 3:2-4,
Luke 4:31, Luke 6:2, (as shown previously herein above), and Luke 13:10.

Luke 13:10 W/H
10 ην δε διδασκων εν μια των συναγωγων εν τοις σαββασιν

"And he was teaching in one of the synagogues in the Sabbasin" (daily Shabbatot).

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What is the second first Sabbath?

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