Is Tithing for the Christian today?

Hank77 said:

I think it is interesting that the Jews do not pay tithes today, they know they cannot, and yet some pastors, evangelists, and private ministries teach that the OT tithe is commanded today. NOT saying that you do or that all do.

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How are Rabbis compensated and synagogues maintained?

Tree of Life said:

It would seem that Paul does this very thing in Romans 15:16.

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"Acting as a priest in the good news." Paul is comparing himself to the temple priests who prepared sacrifices to the Lord. He was saying that the people who he preached to were his sacrifices to the Lord. Anyone who shares the gospel, good news, with others do the same. Sometimes we just plant seeds, sometimes we are blessed to also see the Lord reap the harvest.
Peter says...
1Pe 2:5 and ye yourselves, as living stones, are built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:8 and a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence--who are stumbling at the word, being unbelieving, --to which also they were set;
1Pe 2:9 and ye are a choice race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired, that the excellences ye may shew forth of Him who out of darkness did call you to His wondrous light;

All of us are called to this priesthood, to share the good news, but not all of us are called to be pastors, teachers, evangelists. These are the pastors, not just priests but....as Jesus said to Peter...tend My flock. You are the shepards who tend the Lord's flock. That is a grave responsibility indeed.

Tree of Life said:

How are Rabbis compensated and synagogues maintained?

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They generally are assigned amounts that they pay for this purpose, it can be quite a bit too. So they all share in those expenses. Then they are allowed to put up and pay for their sons' religious education. They also give to any charity of their choosing. They are encouraged to give a 10th for these last two purposes but not more than a 20th.
They cannot tithe as there is no temple to bring the tithe to. There are no priests or Levites.
I'm looking for where I read all this and have found some of it.
Again according to the Rabbis, the full tithing laws apply only when the majority of Jews live in the land of Israel and since, in the absence of the purification rites of the red heifer, everyone today suffers from corpse contamination, the terumah is inoperative in any event. Moreover the purpose of tithing, for the upkeep of the priests and Levites, has no meaning nowadays. The present practice in the State of Israel is to have only a token separation of the tithes.


Some Rabbinic sources make reference to a tithe of money as well as of produce, although it is not too clear whether this was seen as a voluntary contribution rather than an obligation. Nevertheless, many observant Jews today do donate a tenth of their annual income to charity. This is known as maaser kesafim, ‘the money tithe’ or ‘wealth tax.’
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/tithing/2/

Think about this. Neither Paul nor Peter were legible to receive tithes. Neither of them were of the tribe of Levi, Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin and Peter the tribe of Judah.

Well if we're going to define tithe in the strict sense of giving to sustain the levitical priesthood then, yes, no tithe like that is possible today. But I think that the concept is broad enough to include giving of our income to support the ministry and worship of God. In that sense, NT giving is organically related to tithing. If you don't want to call it "tithing" and you'd rather call it "giving" that's fine, but that makes no practical difference.

ViaCrucis said:

The True Christians™ trope.

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lolololololololol

@2Timothy2:15 Hi God bless you, and welcome

You might consider that in order to provide materials for religious service, the Jews used the items which the Egyptians gave to them, and maybe some items they got in the wilderness. They did not use a tithe. A tithe would be animals and crops, not what could be used as materials for the tabernacle and its articles of service. Also . . . by the way . . . in the wilderness, they ate the manna, not crops; but they did have animals.

Whenever there were the tithes . . . food items . . . they were used to support the Levites and needy people. And tithed materials were used for eating at gatherings of the LORD.

So, possibly scriptural tithing now could be used for supporting ministerial and needy people, and for blessing tithers and others during celebratory occasions. Meanwhile, freewill offerings could be for worship expenses . . . like how the Jews brought freewill offerings of things which they got in Egypt, but maybe from the wilderness, too . . . of jewelry and precious metals and animal skins and wood and items of fragrance and other substances.

But I think we should not be legalistic, in any details about this. I think God's family in each location can work out their agreement.

If you have a pastor you trust and your pastor is feeding you so you are growing in Jesus and how to live and relate in love, and if he or she believes in tithing, I suppose you should respect the authority of a pastor who is a good example, if on the whole you have an edifying rapport with the person. Don't be legalistic for tithing or legalistic against tithing. A leader can have authority to require much more than ten percent. So, ten percent is pretty easy. Plus, in any case, we need to do the good we can, ourselves, with whatever we have.

If we agree to tithing, this ten percent can in fact be a combination of support for ministerial people but also for administrative expenses. And then we might use other income, ourselves, to help needy people and do other good, ourselves. And what we use to help people could be what God considers to be our real tithe

Our pastor has said he believes in tithing. But our money helps him, helps different church workers, and helps people in need, missionaries, and recovery and other ministries, and disaster help . . . and takes care of rent and building improvement . . . and treats us to some food during certain occasions, including memorial get-togethers. These are all things I would think we would want to support paying for. And ten percent for all this . . . might not be enough.

Tree of Life said:

Well if we're going to define tithe in the strict sense of giving to sustain the levitical priesthood then, yes, no tithe like that is possible today. But I think that the concept is broad enough to include giving of our income to support the ministry and worship of God. In that sense, NT giving is organically related to tithing. If you don't want to call it "tithing" and you'd rather call it "giving" that's fine, but that makes no practical difference.

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It makes a lot of difference. Especially when churches and others teaching tithing the way they do. They teach that if one does not give a tenth they will be cursed by God because they are robbing Him. Since when is it acceptable to teach lies for the sake of money. It is nothing less than extortion.
When they tell the elderly to give a tenth of their fixed income and don't worry about how they will pay for their life sustaining medication, just have faith the Lord will provide it. Well, where is the churches faith that the Lord will provide what the church needs without them extorting funds from old folks. Do they tell the old widow not to tithe, that she should be receiving from the tithe? I've never heard it.

Hank77 said:

It makes a lot of difference. Especially when churches and others teaching tithing the way they do. They teach that if one does not give a tenth they will be cursed by God because they are robbing Him. Since when is it acceptable to teach lies for the sake of money. It is nothing less than extortion.
When they tell the elderly to give a tenth of their fixed income and don't worry about how they will pay for their life sustaining medication, just have faith the Lord will provide it. Well, where is the churches faith that the Lord will provide what the church needs without them extorting funds from old folks. Do they tell the old widow not to tithe, that she should be receiving from the tithe? I've never heard it.

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Most churches that teach tithing do not teach it in the framework you suggested here. Please don't make a blanket statement about all of them, as it is a false statement about many.

I'm sorry that so many have had these negative experiences with churches. I am reminded to an extent of my previous experiences before becoming Orthodox, though my other church never taught that we would be cursed if we don't tithe 10%.

I don't think that tithing a tenth is taught in the NT - but generous giving is taught. If it assists someone to remember to give by tithing 10%, then that is perfectly acceptable, though the exact 10% is not mandated.

keltoi said:

Are you suggesting that Jesus' words mean nothing to you because you are not a Jew?

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No. I am saying that the Jewish law means nothing to me because I am not a Jew. Paul's letter to the Galatians addressed the issue in more detail.

In Malachi chapter three, it says people rob God, "In tithes and offerings." It does not say they are robbing Him by not giving tithes, but "in" the tithes and offerings. I can see that this can mean the robbery is in how the tithing is done wrong . . . not cheerfully and thankfully, and possibly by giving in a way to get status . . . even so then the person can look down on others. By being of a stingy and grudging and worrying and even conceited and hypocritical attitude, one can be robbing God of having pleasure in how the person is giving.

But, of course, there also can be ones who are self-righteous in promoting that we don't have to tithe. These can also look down on others, welcoming an excuse to say someone else is wrong . . . while not being at least as thorough to make us wise to how that judgmental person oneself can be wrong.

AMBASSADOR HAT

Please everyone focus on the topic of the OP - whether tithing is or is not biblical.

Accusing all who teach tithing to be extortionists and accusing all churches who teach this to be promoting false beliefs is against the spirit of this forum. Also, do not tell others what their tradition believes.

If you wish to discuss why having a full time paid pastor is unbiblical, do so by stating your position from your perspective, while avoiding condemnation of others (i.e. X means Y because of Z). If you want more freedom regarding this posting style, create another thread in General Theology, not in Traditional Theology.

If you wish to discuss why 10% tithing is incorrect, feel free to do so by stating what you believe with the reasons you believe 10% tithing is not right. Respect those who do give (or teach) 10% tithes though (and vice versa).

Respectful discussion is the main guideline of this subforum. Posters who participate in the Traditional Theology forum are expected to treat one another with courtesy and respect at all times, ESPECIALLY when you disagree with each other.

Please keep this in mind.

As the SoP states:

Discuss and debate specific topics from your own traditional theological viewpoint, allowing others to do likewise without fear of judgment and condemnation. Do not get sidetracked into debating whether or not another poster's beliefs are right or wrong according to your traditional theological background or viewpoint.

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The SoP (http://www.christianforums.com/threads/traditional-theology-statement-of-purpose.7859802/) explains this in more detail. It is stickied at the top of this forum category.

My money comes from God and I should use them wisely. I gladly donate/give back money to a church or a Christian organization that helps the poor or helps to spread the Gospel. I don't believe we are to see this as a legalistic issue but rather give from the heart, not from a must, whether it be 1% or 100%.

The 10% tithe was the inheritance of the Levites (Numbers 18:21), whereas the other tribes got land. That set amount is not specified for the modern Christian. Paul tells us that every man should give as he is able, as he has purposed in his heart (2 Corinthians 8:10-15, 2 Corinthians 9:7), and this not by commandment (2 Corinthians 8:7-8).

It is arguable that tithing 10% is a Biblical principle, making the comparison to Abraham and the king of Salem (Hebrews 7:2, Genesis 14:20). But that was still an offering by free will, and not according to any tangible commandment we can demonstrate.

It is good to give a tithe if you attend a church. The pastors and staff work hard throughout the week preparing sermons and working in the other ministries. They don't charge anything, and they aren't a business. But the lights still have to be paid, the water bill has to be paid, the lease or mortgage has to be paid, etc., and the laborer is worthy of his wage (1 Timothy 5:18). Those who work for the gospel should be able to make a living from the gospel (1 Corinthians 9:3-14). It's not free to provide the free service so many take for granted, and the money has to come from somewhere.

As you choose, you could also "tithe" to organizations like the Red Cross, St. Jude's, the Salvation Army, etc. Many of these charities are known for their public works in crisis, sickness, disaster, etc., and I do not doubt for a moment that God would be approving of your tithe going to help the victims of a tsunami rather than lining the pockets of a presumptuous pastor.

Lastly, I would not personally give a dime to a church organization that didn't demonstrate moderation and humility. Paul tells us that those doing the work of God should be content with food and raiment (1 Timothy 6:6-10). And while I don't think this should be stretched in its interpretation to rule out an appropriately comfortable and realistic living for a pastor, many of them actually make six-figure salaries, and get a parsonage to boot, all paid for off the backs of congregation members who are often unable to pay their bills at home. Being a pastor is a calling, not a career. When a pastor makes six figures, drives a $40-$50K vehicle or nicer, and has his home paid for through the church ... to see anyone in the congregation unable to pay their light bill is an outright abomination in my opinion. Being content with simple living does not equate in my mind to three times the wage of the average person, plus a parsonage. $40K a year is adequate for a comfortable living. $120K or more is presumptuous. I don't care what your education is.

AFrazier said:

It is good to give a tithe if you attend a church. The pastors and staff work hard throughout the week preparing sermons and working in the other ministries. They don't charge anything, and they aren't a business. But the lights still have to be paid, the water bill has to be paid, the lease or mortgage has to be paid, etc., and the laborer is worthy of his wage. Those who work for the gospel should be able to make a living from the gospel. In other words, it's not free to provide the free service so many take for granted.

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Lastly, I would not personally give a dime to a church organization that didn't demonstrate moderation and humility. Paul tells us that pastors should be content with food and raiment. And while I don't think it's inappropriate for a pastor to make a comfortable and realistic living, many of them actually make six-figure salaries, and get a parsonage to boot, all paid for off the backs of congregation members who are often unable to pay their bills at home. Being a pastor is a calling, not a career. When a pastor makes six figures, drives a $40-$50K vehicle or nicer, and has his home paid for through the church ... to see anyone in the congregation unable to pay their light bill is an outright abomination in my opinion.

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I agree with this. In our parish, we choose (as the congregation) to give our priest the equivalent of an average salary - enough to live without struggling, but not a pretentious amount. He has a family with four children; we want to help provide for them as he works for God and the Church (more than just our parish) 24/7 all year long.

However - paying a pastor 6 digit figures, giving them the ability to drive a 40-50k vehicle and to have a mansion while people in the congregation are struggling seems to be an abuse of what their role is.

My previous church wasn't quite to this level of abuse, but it did have some similarities. That is one of the many reasons I started to look elsewhere. (Despite that - I know the pastors weren't condemning people if they couldn't give. However, they had a huge mega church - and they accepted a large amount of money for their salaries).

There is an important balance required in areas like this, in my opinion.

All4Christ said:

I agree with this. In our parish, we choose (as the congregation) to give our priest the equivalent of an average salary - enough to live without struggling, but not a pretentious amount. He has a family with four children; we want to help provide for them as he works for God and the Church (more than just our parish) 24/7 all year long.

However - paying a pastor 6 digit figures, giving them the ability to drive a 40-50k vehicle and to have a mansion while people in the congregation are struggling seems to be an abuse of what their role is.

My previous church wasn't quite to this level of abuse, but it did have some similarities. That is one of the many reasons I started to look elsewhere. (Despite that - I know the pastors weren't condemning people if they couldn't give. However, they had a huge mega church - and they accepted a large amount of money for their salaries).

There is an important balance required in areas like this, in my opinion.

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Sounds like you found a good place, at least for the time being. Keep them in your prayers that when the time comes they will understand humility, and how to be good stewards of the finances God has put in their charge.

@2Timothy2:15 when are you going to get around to addressing the Scripture I've cited in defense of paying ministers? Didn't you want to have a discussion about Scripture?

Here's a summary of what I've cited in support:

In 1 Corinthians 9:14 Paul says that those who proclaim the gospel should make their living by the gospel. In the context Paul makes it clear that he abdicated this right with the Corinthians, but it was his right nonetheless.

In 2 Corinthians 11:7-8 we see that Paul was able to do this because he was financially supported by other churches as he labored among the Corinthians.

In 1 Timothy 5:17-18 Paul commands that the elder who labor in preaching and teaching be honored with double honor and that the laborer deserves his wages. He quotes the same OT verse he uses in 1 Corinthians to say that the Lord commanded that gospel ministers make their living by the gospel.

There's more to say, but these verses alone seem to indicate that gospel preaching is a legitimate job that is supported by the generosity of the church. Could you address these verses please?

AFrazier said:

Sounds like you found a good place, at least for the time being. Keep them in your prayers that when the time comes they will understand humility, and how to be good stewards of the finances God has put in their charge.

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I am thankful for where God has led me.

And yes - that is a prayer I will continue to pray - and is one that I think we all should pray for, both with our parishes and in our personal lives as well.

Hank77 said:

It makes a lot of difference. Especially when churches and others teaching tithing the way they do. They teach that if one does not give a tenth they will be cursed by God because they are robbing Him. Since when is it acceptable to teach lies for the sake of money. It is nothing less than extortion.
When they tell the elderly to give a tenth of their fixed income and don't worry about how they will pay for their life sustaining medication, just have faith the Lord will provide it. Well, where is the churches faith that the Lord will provide what the church needs without them extorting funds from old folks. Do they tell the old widow not to tithe, that she should be receiving from the tithe? I've never heard it.

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Brother, I'm behind you 100% in this. Shame on them. If anything, the church should be giving to the old lady, not the other way around. Devouring widow's houses indeed.

All4Christ said:

I agree with this. In our parish, we choose (as the congregation) to give our priest the equivalent of an average salary - enough to live without struggling, but not a pretentious amount. He has a family with four children; we want to help provide for them as he works for God and the Church (more than just our parish) 24/7 all year long.

However - paying a pastor 6 digit figures, giving them the ability to drive a 40-50k vehicle and to have a mansion while people in the congregation are struggling seems to be an abuse of what their role is.

My previous church wasn't quite to this level of abuse, but it did have some similarities. That is one of the many reasons I started to look elsewhere. (Despite that - I know the pastors weren't condemning people if they couldn't give. However, they had a huge mega church - and they accepted a large amount of money for their salaries).

There is an important balance required in areas like this, in my opinion.

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I fear that some people see the extremes, where pastors make a substantial income and where the goals of pastoral ministry become like that of any other job, namely to increase one's pay and prestige. But, in my experience, the vast majority of paid pastors earn incomes that fall below or at the median income for their congregation. Often churches also expect their pastor to have, at a minimum, a M. Div., which is typically 90 credits (three years full time) of post college education. I can't fault someone for receiving a modest salary for a career that required them to pursue 7+ years of post-secondary education and is by any reasonable measure a full-time job and then some.